Whip, give us an update!

Yes I'm feeling better...went back to work last week 32 hrs instead of 40 but better than 1-2 days/week!

KayC - glad you're doing better.

As far as an update - Plan A-ing me & my kiddos has been AMAZING therapy for me. I've got a lot of catching up on threads to do as I've been so busy walking, running, couponing, doing things with my kids, trampolining, painting my nails, studying my Bible, hanging out with family, old friends and new friends, that I haven't had time to visit the MB site as regularly as I was 2 weeks ago. I really, really feel great. And I smile alot more regularly these days.

I HAVE had time to do some reading and SAA has been highlighted cover to cover. There was something that stood out to me when reading it that I have a question about. There's a section in Preparing for Marital Recovery that explains how an apology and remorse are not always necessary for recovery to take place. Dr. H writes that the ending of the A is what is needed to begin recovery. My question then is - how do I know if / when the A has ended while I'm in Plan B? Would that HAVE to been shown by Frollo writing a NCL before anything else? (I included this in the PBL) I ask this because a friend shared with me that POSOW has been showing pics to everyone (at her job & church) and bragging to them about a guy she's dating. Writing all this out has led my trail of thinking to "well, WHip, how else are you going to know if all contact has REALLY ended unless he tells you it has through IM?" Besides, she is a POS so the boyfriend could just be a coverup. I mean for Pete's sake - she was MARRIED when she started this affair with MY HUSBAND. Kind of answered my own question there I suppose!

Another question I have is - what if the A has ended or DOES end, but Frollo refuses proper steps for recovery because he doesn't think it's "what he wants" or even possible? (b/c of pride, pathological lying he's done to himself & others, etc.) This is where my thoughts led me after reading the "remorse isn't always necessary" section. I know their relationship will not ever lead to an affairage. She used him - he used her - that's all it is. Frollo, being a well-known preacher in our denomination, and surrounded by pastoral & christian friends & family, could never take the blow to his pride that would come from others' disappointment in him. Before exposure - maybe it could've worked for them. But now that everyone knows - he'll never do it. Because family & friends (90% of which are christians) would see him as "bad". And Frollo can't take that! Right now a majority of people don't see him as "bad" b/c he lies, decieves and manipulates them to think he's "trying to save his marriage" or he's "really remorseful and sorry, but WHip just can't forgive me" and they take his word for it.

Are there similar stories of this happening? A WS ending the A but still too prideful to do what's necessary for recovery so a divorce still occurrs even with the AP out of the picture?

I came to this line of thinking b/c I didn't read anything in SAA about this. The book just seems to assume that once the A ends, recovery can then take place. But what "Plan" is there if the A ends and the WS doesn't want recovery (or is too prideful/hurt/illusioned by the A to go through it)?

WHiP, I'll try to answer your questions as best I can, but remember, I haven't had a go at marital recovery given Gollum remains wayward.

In a dark Plan B, you don't know if the A has ended. And you don't need to. As for an apology and remorse not being needed. No they aren't if the BS does not feel they are a requirement. But motivation to recover the marriage IS.

Also,WW's and WH's are different. Whilst Dr Harley focusses on a WW in SAA, I remember reading somewhere on here that he suggests a WH should seek recovery with a BW "hat in hand". Another words, remorseful, broken, and willing to do whatever it takes for however long it takes to recover the marriage.

Really, would you want it any other way?

Anyone have the link for Dr Harley's advice?

WHiP, I would suggest you read TST / herpapabear's thread if you haven't already. I would only accept this behaviour from a WH before I would attempt marital recovery. Nothing less. Having been in Plan B for nearly a year, I don't need WH and I don't want to have to coach him. If he ever contacted IM seeking recovery, my first steps would be to have IM tell him to contact Dr Harley, and if Dr Harley was convinced, to post here. If MB'ers can't break through the fog, I don't want to have any contact. And whilst Dr Harley suggests remorse and apologies are not requirements for marital recovery, for ME they are. Too many people have been hurt by Gollum. So a BS ultimately has the right to decide.

If Frollo does not think he wants recovery, you can't control his decisions. You have given Frollo the map to earn contact with you back, if only he would follow the PBL directions. So he knows it MIGHT be possible, but he has to show humility for this. For many waywards, this is just too difficult. It is easier to move on to the next A. It is sad, and the pattern will just continue. But it is HIS choice, not yours. You have done all you can do for him, now it is about what you can do for YOU.

So if this is the case for Frollo, my best suggestion is that you remain in Plan B to protect yourself and heal, and thrive. That IS the plan WHiP. With or without marital recovery, Dr Harley's plan is for the BS to recover.

Way to go WHiP!!! You are showing yourself to be a true Plan B'er, keep it up!

This should clear things up:



Remorse in words, or even feelings isnt essential to the plan. But they have to agree to do the work. They have to be remorseful enough to walk the walk, not just talk the talk.

If youve read SAA, you'll know Sue only came home due to finances and the children, but she blamed Jon.

However Dr H insisted she follow the program - or she wouldnt be allowed home. I've heard him say it's possible for remorse, or remorseful actions to begin with 'selfish reasons'

Jon was very resentful and wanted to yell at her for her lack of remorse. Dr H counselled him to wait until recovery was further along. Jons resentment had vanished by then because of her actions. Which were much better than words.

I have also seen him make the distiction between WWs and WHs. Its our differing brain chemistry that makes this necessary. A woman falls more wholly in love with the OM than a WH does with OW. He is able to categorise his life into two separate parts. Often the woman does not, and so has to cast out her husband from her heart entirely. This means she is foggier and less remorseful on return. She also often believes being in love with her H to be impossible. But she may agree to the plan for other, selfish reasons.

I must say that unless the WHs have 'hat in hand' they do seem to be lining the BW up for a false recovery.

You should read the false recovery thread for more info on what a real vs false one looks like.

You would know he's ready for recovery if and when the affair ends and when he meets your conditions you gave him in your Plan B letter.

Yes it's true some waywards do not apologize and some do. We would help you know if he was serious about recovery by meeting all your conditions. We would educate you about false recoveries.

In SAA Sue never apologized to John for her affair. What is the most important is their ACTIONS not their words. If his actions were to show repentance then you could work with that. Sue only came to John when her OM dumped her from her constant depression.

Continue to work on your personal recovery.

Also here.
False recoveries voicees of experience
False recovery

THANKS Y'ALL!!!

I hadn't considered the differences in how a WW and WH view their A and recovery. That definitely helped shed some light on things. As well as the quote from Dr. H (thanks Indie): the affair must end AND the WS must agree to the terms for recovery. To me, that requires remorseful actions.

Caracal - most of what you wrote is how I feel. "whilst Dr Harley suggests remorse and apologies are not requirements for marital recovery, for ME they are." and "I don't need WH and I don't want to have to coach him." AY-MEN!! Same feelings here.
I DON'T want a false recovery - again. And I DON'T want a marriage that limps along "for the kids" or because "it's the right thing to do".
I would prefer to recover alone in my Plan B than have a false recovery where the marriage is ripe for more affairs to occur - by either of us.

I don't even like to think of what my world would look like without MB. ***shudder*** Thank y'all so much for taking the time to respond and share your knowledge. And for the links! I've got some threads to go look at now.

But somewhere, Brainy, Dr H has said or written that a WH who is serious will come to the BW hat in hand, practically on his knees begging for forgiveness and a second chance. He seems to have said that the non-apology thing is not a big deal for a WW at the beginning of recovery, but when it is a WH who is non-apologetic, the BW wife should show him the door.

How have you not posted this already? You're supposed to be able to find this for me as soon as I even think about it! Get looking! Chop chop!

This has been my observation over the years. In EVERY case where the WH was not remorseful and committed to recovery, the marriage went through a false recovery. WH, if your husband is not committed to recovery, this is hopeless. A WS cannot dictate the terms of recovery as it sounds like your H is trying to do. Those conditions of recovery are essential to recovery and unless he agrees to them all, this won't work.

WH, you are doing just great and are in good hands with this group!

Anything that allows a wayward to retain his pride, and not demonstrate the fruits of repentance (sorrow, remorse, actions of just compensation) can and do lead to false recovery - I've never seen a prideful wayward not lead his beloved betrayed down a false recovery path. That's the cost of forgiving too soon when the fruits of repentance are not manifest.

I'm all in on MB principles, but as a betrayed husband, the remorse factor is a big sticking point. If my wife wants to return to the marriage for "selfish reasons" and she were to show no remorse, I would not take her back. That's why the end of SAA left me cold. Sue comes across as a completely self-absorbed person even when she exits the fog. If she lacks the humility, compassion, and empathy to offer a sincere apology after the hell she put John through then she is not a worthy spouse.

This hits on what is fundamental in any relationship: reconciliation. Marital Recovery = reconciliation. And reconciliation is a healing sacrament, which has endured for centuries in the Church. The model for reconciliation is successful because it repairs our relationships. Here are the steps: 1) examination of conscience (take inventory of your wrongs), 2) confess your sins (come clean with everything to your spouse), 3) express you are sorry (contrition) and promise to not do the sin again, 4) penance (i.e. just compensation).

Without remorse there can be no healing, no recovery.

I believe marriages should be saved and fought for, and I believe Dr. Harley has the right plan to make that happen. But I don't believe the betrayed spouse should pander to the wayward spouse and take them back unless they are ready to show remorse for their horrible deed.

Now back to the regular programming. End of threadjack.

Excellent radio clip where Dr. H talks about what a WH should do for his wife to give him another try after his affairs. He explains it like an addict.

Radio Clip on a WH on what to do to get back with his wife 3:50 mark

I'm still trying to locate the radio clip that Sugarcane is talking about with "hat in hand". For my dear friend SC I emailed the Harleys asking for the hat in hand comment.

Joyce said she asked Dr. H and he couldn't recall. I'm still going back and listening. I know I've heard it or maybe it was Mel?!

I have heard the "hat in hand" comment as well.

Well maybe between you and I we can find it?

I know you, like me, goes back and keeps listening to old shows. I thought I heard it in March or April of 2012. Maybe you can take one month and I'll take the other? I went back and didn't find it and I'm going back through February but I could've missed it. That is a possibility.

Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm sure you will) but isn't taking the BS back with or w/o apology/remorse only in the beginning of recovery and they STILL have to be willing to commit to recovery plan! I'd think at some point they would truly be remorseful as they fall in love with their spouse again! In the beginning, however, it may beyond them to be sorry...they're like an addict going through w/d, the light begins to emerge little by little for them.

WHip! You are an inspiration. Keep up the great work. So happy to see you doing so well!

Hey WHIP, it's been quite a while since an update from you and your plan B inspired me to get mine going. I'd love to hear how you are doing...please give us an update! Peace, JV

Hiya JV (and other MB friends). I'm still around, still in Plan B and doing good. Soooooo busy Plan A-ing myself & kiddos. I still visit the site frequently, but usually from my phone just to get caught up on other threads.
I'll try to get a more detailed update posted tomorrow.
Kids are with Frollo so I have time to myself -- how delightful.

Goodnight for now.

hello WHiP. looking forward to your update. glad to hear you're plan a-ing yourself!