All standard stuff.

She's being "pleasant" to assuage her guilt. She still has the fantasy that after you've dealt with the pain, you two will be BFFs and all will be grand with the world.

...bull**** that comes out of a WS's mouth!!

Sorry, but I just wish I knew someone with cartoon-drawing talent!

As I lay in bed this morning after only 4 hours sleep and thought through the happenings over the past few months and the behavior that's coming from her I came to the realization that her conscience has become completely non-existent.

She sees nothing wrong with anything that she does or says and what's worse is that she keeps trying to convince ME that I should accept her beliefs as well.

I understand that all of this is typical wayward ways of life. It's just so un-natural to see a person that you know is an intelligent being, go from one extreme to the other.

Crazy I say....crazy.

As bad as I hate to say or admit this but it's getting more and more difficult for me to be nice to this person that has taken over my wife's body and mind.

It sounds like your lovebank is getting lower.

Brain,

You are correct. I can feel it happening, but I'm not ready for it to be empty. I'm working on keeping that from happening but she's making it very difficult.

Yesterday at the end of a conversation we had on the phone, I plainly reiterated the fact about what kind of "relationship" we would have if we divorced in a very plain and direct way that it WILL NOT be misunderstood. I just wanted her to hear it again that she will only be the mother of my children if she carries this all the way to divorce.

I know I probably didn't need to say it again but I felt that I needed/wanted to make sure she understood that I was serious.

So, I was pretty upset in a way that I began to distance myself from her emotionally. When I met her yesterday morning to pick up the kids, I put the kids in my car while she was mentioning a couple things about them and then I just left. I wasn't rude or mean in any way, I just didn't really want to have a conversation with her. I don't think I did that to prove anything. That's the way things will be if she pushes this through to the end. I don't know if she cares or not but I have gotten to the point where I feel like I need to start protecting my heart and feelings from her.

She emailed me this morning with a long email that was completely unnecessary (in regards to a couple that is divorcing). She was nice and pleasant and almost friendly sounding.

This made me realize something. When she starts being conversational in a nice and friendly way I think I try to interpret that as her subtle way to begin communicating with me to work her way up to talking through our issues. I feel like IF she ever gets to the point of "waking up" to see what it is she's doing, she may have a hard time coming to me to start that conversation. So when she talks all nice and friendly, I fall right in (and out of my Plan mode) and start to be nice and friendly back to her. When that happens I start being compassionate and try to talk about the issues. Most of the time that doesn't end well.

Saying all that, I guess it boils down to this: I can't tell when she's "playing her game" with me or when she might be trying to subtly communicate with me in a legitimate way to try and ask for help.

Does anyone have any advice or clues as to how to tell the difference? Or, will it be so obvious when she's ready to actually communicate about reconciliation that I'll be able to tell?

Does anyone have any advice or clues as to how to tell the difference?

The spoken words of an active wayward are not worth the paper they're (not) printed on.

There is no value in what she says, LFH. ***EDIT***

It is only her actions that should have any weight with your consideration of her mind and intentions.

Clear enough.

Unfortunately (for me) her actions right now are very clear that she wants out as fast as she can get out.

And all the clues/information alludes to her either actually having someone "waiting" when she gets out or that there is someone she has in mind to "chase" once she gets out. But it is pretty much crystal clear right now that she definitely wants out according to her actions AND words.

I get these "waves" of complete disbelief that ANY addiction can be stronger than a mother's biological connection to her kids or babies.

I know understanding this is not anything I will ever be able to do, but to see a mother seem to be ok with leaving her few month old baby and her 2 year old little girl is just beyond comprehension.

So sorry, Looking. Yes, that is awful. Did you read Pepperband's post on "deceives, hardens, destroys?" You should.

Stay strong for those babies. Your WW is the one who has lost everything, not you.

That post describes my WW exactly.

I sure wish there was a magic switch to help her see what's going on inside her own mind and heart.

I have one more major card to play...my counter divorce filing. I can only hope and wish it will do the trick.

Still holding on to hope.....

I will say this, my marriage has been long and hard. Early on, I thought it would be so tragic to have my WH leave babies, or little children (not quite as bad as Mommy checking out, I know). Now I see the children would probably have recovered far more easily with him just gone then, if that was the way he was going to do his life. Having him leave a houseful of teenagers has been more devastating than I imagined.

I hope she shapes up. I do. But if she's never going to, sooner is better than later. Still hoping for you.

Thoughts and prayers, Looking. Wish you the best.

It seems every day I come across something that reminds me or makes me think about how absolutely crazy my WW's behavior is. I wish there was a magic ball she could look into that would show her how insane her decisions are.

I'll be doing something completely innocent around the house and come across something that makes me step back and look at a larger view. Looking at a larger view I can see scenarios where it looks like something just "snatched" her cleanly out of the spot where she was standing.

Kind of like the "rapture" or something where the setting where the person was standing is still completely intact. The only thing missing is the person.

My WW basically took what she needed when she left 2 months ago when the separation began and really hasn't taken anything else. It's the craziest and weirdest feeling to walk through the house and see her bathroom sink area where some of her things are still sitting like they always have.

It's like nothing else in this entire world (including her friends, family and most importantly her kids) mean ANYTHING to her anymore. Only the thoughts of the POSOM (I'm still assuming at this point). Now, if I were to say to HER that she was leaving her kids, she would go ballistic on me and try to convince me that she IS NOT leaving or neglecting her kids.

I don't care how you look at it...in my mind she's leaving/neglecting her kids. I don't mean to upset anyone on this forum that has been in her position but this is how I feel about my situation. It is absolutely a FACT that her conscience and rational thought process has went out the door!

And she STILL asks me during conversations, "are you upset with me about something?".....I'm speechless every time that comes out of her mounth!

Wayward alien. They're all the same. There's a dull kind of comfort in that. They all think they're special - they found their soulmate, blahblahblah. They're all the same kind of crazy.

Have you thought of going into Plan B, Looking? I haven't read your whole post. But you're obviously still in communication. If she's not home and won't come home, you can't really do Plan A. Maybe it would provide some sanity for you, and a rude awakening for her, if you went to Plan B.

To validate you, she has totally abandoned her children. She doesn't care. She only cares about herself and her "drug" right now. She's an out of control addict, who sees nothing else. Hopefully the fog will dissipate sooner rather than later.

I have actually thought about Plan B but am trying to stay on the path the Vets have me on. I think we're waiting to see what kind of effect my counter file has before they recommend my next "phase" or move.

I'm meeting with my lawyer this Thursday to complete my paperwork to counter file. I hate the thought of doing that but she has pushed me into a corner and my main concern right now is my kids. If I get her back in the process then we can definitely deal with that as well, but my kids are what I'm concentrating on now.

Oh yea...just wanted to say that she STILL doesn't get the fact that I am not and will not be at her beck and call if we divorce.

She just called me to help her with her computer not connecting to the Internet. I REALLY wanted to say "I'm not your personal IT department anymore", but I didn't. It may have been wrong but I didn't really help her either. I don't know what it's gonna take for her to understand and believe that she no longer has and will not have access to me like that!

That makes sense. Kids are most important, for sure. But it doesn't sound like you're really doing Plan A either? I'm no vet, so I'm sure they know what they're doing, and if you're following their advice, you're on the right path.

Just wondered.

Seems like if you were in Plan A, you WOULD be doing everything you could for her, to meet her needs. If you go to Plan B, that's when she gets the bucket of cold water in the fact reality that you will not be. Sounds like maybe you are more in limbo? Maybe that's necessary to get the counter filing done first. Not somewhere to stay longterm, though. Hopefully people more experienced than I check in on you soon.

Best wishes, Looking.

Rainy,

You're right in that I'm kind of in between Plans. I guess I've had a hard time sticking to Plan A to a tee because she has continued to use and take advantage of me. I know I allowed most of that because it's hard for me to distinguish between Plan A and being taken advantage of. I have worked on that.

I am trying to do Plan A - Carrot and Stick. I have to admit that I have been flubbing up with the Carrot part. I am kind of in a confused state right now.

I think I SHOULD still be doing Plan A (being there to help at every opportunity without being used or taken advantage of) but I also have been told that I need to show her that I'm not there for her every whim. I've been concentrating on trying to do that.

I've tried to start being polite/nice/pleasant but firm at the same time to let her know that I won't be a doormat anymore. I also think I have let my anger and resentment get the best of me at times.

It's just difficult to know how to be pleasant and nice when I'm being asked by her to split up the finances, decide long-term about the holidays in regards to who gets the kids when, her trying to get me to sell our house, etc. I'm having a very hard time understanding how to do that.

Again, not a vet, so take their word over mine. Have you had a session with one of the Harley's? They could give you more concrete advice, or the radio show - that's free.

Plan B is to protect YOU. To keep your love bank from getting any lower, to pull you out of the craziness. It also has the added benefit of giving your WW a taste of real life without you.

I'm not saying you shouldn't do Plan A, and I'm sure most everyone messes up in it sometimes, but if you really feel like you are to the point where you CAN'T do it, maybe it's time to Plan B, for yourself.

You would get an intermediary, cut off all contact with her, and all these unpleasant arrangements you are making would have to go through the IM or your lawyers. Might complicate things more. Or might save your sanity - I don't know.

If you find that you cannot genuinely love unconditionally most of the time, get back up after a setback, try to meet her needs with no expectation of her returning the favor - then it seems to me you might as well get ready to go into Plan B. Because you aren't really doing Plan A anyway. Prepare first, of course.

The trick for me in Plan A (and this is before I knew anything about MB or that I was even doing Plan A - wish I'd had all this long ago) was to remember that I could not be like my WH - I had to choose to think and then behave in responsible and productive ways, even when I didn't feel like it. I reminded myself that this was not about me, it was about him (and no - he sure didn't deserve it, but that didn't matter), and I tried to look for the light inside him that I knew was still there somewhere. I pictured him lost (instead of a horrible monster who was deliberately killing me slowly), and tried to be a lighthouse that could radiate light and guide him home if he chose to follow it. I prayed all the time that God would help heal my heart, and help me to see my WH the way that God himself saw him. He did. I really did feel an overwhelming amount of love and peace during most of the months when I was doing Plan A, without knowing it. That was the strongest I had felt in years. (Then I let myself go back to plan doormat after he left; I didn't know about Plan B or MB until a few months ago. It's been a horrific year and a half, until I finally found the strength to stand up for myself and my family, but in Plan B this time).

I reminded myself constantly in Plan A that I was coming not from a place of weakness (doormat, at his beck and call), but a place of quiet moral strength. I was standing up for my marriage and family, trying to save it with strength, maturity, and love. If I really couldn't do something, I'd say, "I'm sorry, I can't do that right now. I'd be happy to help you after 8:00." or tomorrow, or whatever. And I didn't let myself feel guilty.

And my WH did briefly turn around. For a few short months he became the husband and father he'd had the potential to be all along. If I'd had MB then, we probably would have stayed in recovery. We just didn't know what to do after that, and allowed ourselves to slip a little, get scared, I didn't know to insist on no contact and the OW kept after him constantly, we had a few bad days, and that was that. You are fortunate in that you do have MB, you will know exactly what to do if you and your wife get into recovery.

Maybe you are just at your limit, Looking. I don't know, and can't say for you. But if you are, you may be doing more harm than good - to yourself and your marriage. You should not be a doormat, either way.

Wish I had more concrete advice, but more experienced folks on here probably do. My heart does go out to you. I'm impressed with the men who have the courage to get on here, honestly look at themselves and their lives, and try to save their marriages and families. I think that's harder for men. (Not easy for women either, but I think you're more in the minority). Your children are fortunate to have you.

lfh, here's a post that I thought might be a little helpful to you right now. It was posted a few eons back, but still quite applicable. Hope it helps because as counter intuitive as it sounds, it makes perfect sense.

I thought it was beautifully put, Tiger. Thanks.