Exactly. My WH is managing to blame me for everything even though we are continents apart. I can now clearly see how a wayward becomes expert at blaming others for EVERYTHING, especially the BS who they know is holding them accountable, even in Plan B with no contact. Deny all they like, but on some level their conscience speaks. That is why they run from the betrayed so desperately, whilst also seeking validation from us. We hold what they desperately crave.


Indie is right. I would add that there is another type of wayward, who stays in the original affair regardless. Due to pride and stubborness. I think some waywards become so embroiled in the affair that admitting defeat and then having people say "I told you so" is just too hard. In my sitch, there are other investments WH has made that even when the affair turns sour, I know he will struggle to walk away from. Finances if the A has lasted long enough, custody disputes due to OC being involved, or simply having alienated every other support he ever had so that staying in the affair is easier than being alone.

Yep. I have read threads here where I can't believe that the wayward has remained wayward in spite of it all. They just do, for whatever reason.

I agree totally with Dr Harley and the affair as an addiction. Some addicts never recover, despite hitting rock bottom. They remain an addict until the day they die, miserable or not.

Letty this was my thought, turn the situation around and find a way of making it appear it is to their benefit. Reverse psychology/reverse fog talk so to speak

If its presented as a benefit to the wayward rather than their responsibility or a consequence of their behaviour couldn't this be used to a betrayed's advantage. It wouldn't be a case of not caring b/c it would be perceived about feeding their own selfish desires rather than it reflecting another's pain or the wayward's responsibilties.

I don't have any ideas how you could transform a situation to appear to satisfy the waywards me me me attitude.

Rainy, I don't consider t a t/j, good question and I'm always open to learning as much as I can particularly about the complex world of waywards.

Sadly Letty your right, he is hardened and I think at this point in time the chances of getting through to him are slim.

Letty and happy, the flaw with this is that you are expecting the wayward to think long-term. This is not how a wayward thinks IMO. All they tend to think about is if their EN's are being met RIGHT NOW.

As long as he is wayward, and the EN's he needs met are being met RIGHT NOW, he will not think about the complications that may arise if DD has future issues. After all, that may require him to acknowlege the consequences of his own actions. A wayward avoids that at all costs. DENY, DENY, DENY. That is what a wayward does best. Selfishness. They can't see past their own "happiness", even at everyone elses expense.

So what are the "right rules" that can help them come out of the fog?

Hopefully Isildur will be one of the waywards who realise its a fantasy and will want to give it up.

Wayward minds are complex, full of double standards and irony.

I hope Isildur doesn't turn out to be a wayward that would remain in the A b/c his proud and stubborn.

Happy, I feel harsh typing this but know that it needs to be said. I know because at times I know I needed to hear it or similar.

You are in Plan B. The "right rules" are no longer your concern. You are following the plans as best you can with the cards you were dealt. Exposure, Plan A and Plan B. You are now in Plan B. The "right rules" do not matter. The fog does not matter. What matters is that you follow the plans.

You are following the plans, doing the best you can. For you, your kids, and even your marriage. Whether it recovers or not. Your WH is still in the fog. You know this, as he is not meeting your requirements.

Plan B. Its not about helping Isildur come out the fog.

I can't remember whose siggy says Plan Hope if not a plan or something similar. This is about YOUR recovery.

My sleep deficit may be catching up with my thought process and typing. My line of thinking is ... I wonder if it possible to apply our knowledge of waywards selfish behaviour and present any given situation so that the wayward sees a short term benefit that meets their EN and selfish motivators. Almost like a behaviour modification or reverse pyschology.

and to add .... because out of shear fear for the hardwork he must do in order to heal you.

Many stay away with the delusion they will get a clean slate with a new person. The self deception is huge, and the delusion they can move on to a new person without fixing what they broke is the worst form of self lying they do to themselves.

Think of it like this ... a drunk spent years on whiskey, destroying himself and his family along the way, he goes in for a check up because he believes the "squirt soda" he used for his whiskey has now caused diabetes. The doctor tells him to get into AA, quit drinking before it kills you, and change your diet to lower you blood sugar.

The delusion'd drunk only hears "change your diet" ... he switches to vodka and now uses Diet Squirt for less sugar. He tells himself as long as I stay away from regular Squirt and whiskey I will cure myself of my high blood sugar.

The adulterer ... "As long as I stay away from my betrayed wife ... I won't commit adultery again. He will tell himself every justification, lie, rationalization ... to try and believe his BW was the cause of his adultery, and he really wasn't the problem. He doesn't want to come back because he doesn't want his BW to hold him accountable and make him do all this counseling crap or need meetin' crap because remember "He isn't the problem.""

Cara, you mentioned a reference by Dr H about the right rules and coming out of the fog. I was curious as to what they were as I don't remember reading about this.

I actually find the pyschology of waywards interesting, its a shame I had to experience it first hand to learn about it. The more I learn, the better understanding I gain, the better equiped I am to deal with the situation. As they say for warned is fore armed.

I honestly am not focusing on helping Isildur come out of the fog, I don't think it is possible at this stage. I know he is very addicted and foggy and believe he needs to travel his path a while longer before he has any chance of coming out of the fog.

But how does meeing your DD's needs meet a wayward's needs? This sort of thinking is far too complex for a wayward. Remember, a wayward boxes things up, compartmentalizes. Anything that reminds them of the betrayed and elicits feelings that are too complex for them, gets compartmentalized. The more I read, the more I think both the BS and the kids get put into this box.

happy, a wayward thinks ONLY of themselves. Thinking of the BS and the kids is avoided, it might interfere with the wayward justification. He77, what wayward wants to feel that pesky conscience rear up?

Also, remember that a WS is seeking approval from the AP, in order to have their own EN's met. Considering the BS's kids does not suit a skank who only thinks of herself and her next holiday / shopping spree.

Many stay away with the delusion they will get a clean slate with a new person. The self deception is huge, and the delusion they can move on to a new person without fixing what they broke is the worst form of self lying they do to themselves


Wayward minds are sad, they don't realise if they don't resolve this, they take these issues into future relationships and face repeating past patterns.

A comment yesterday started me thinking, wouldn't it be great if a BS could use their knowledge of waywards to modify the wayward behaviour.

Like you say their minds are very complex and seem to change to suit their needs at the time, so I'm not sure how effective it would be.

I thought it was a light bulb moment but with brainstorming and feedback I think a successful outcome would be hard to achieve.

Behaviour modification works well in early childhood and school settings a shame we can't use it on waywards.

i feel bad, haps, for giving you a false hope when you're supposed to be plan b-ing! cara is absolutely right. it's an interesting sitch. you can only do what you can for DD. yes, he'll be on the sidelines cheering for the opposite. he has a support team - PEGI sitting on his sidelines cheering for his success.

neither one of them give a hoot about DD.

you're going to have to do your best to remain dark. when they don't have you as a common enemy, their power will be lessened.

i hope you have opportunity to reach out to DD over the holiday weekend. rainy gave several excellent suggestions (the one thing a day) on how you can do this. DD is a smart girl. while she is also thinking in the short term (what can i gain from this?) she is smart enough to see that issy and PEGI are only in *her* short term interest, while you are the only one thinking long term. it will take time, but she will get there. all you can do is be her support system when it all comes crashing down.

we simply must stop talking about iss and pegi. it is not helping your PB.

i hope you have an open dialogue about sex w/DD. it would be a tragedy if she became pregnant any time in the next several years. my own DD has a reward in place for finishing her tertiary education and starting her future. she wavers from time to time, especially when many people she knows are getting married and/or having babies right now (at 18 and 19!), but she's got her eye on the prize. my job is to keep them there.

it is a difficult hurdle, talking openly about sex with your DDs, but once you start, it gets easier. i also found using reality tv programmes a great way to put my views forward without alienating her (because i wasn't making judgments about her friends or her).

sorry if i'm harping on the pregnancy thing. with a DD myself, it's something i always think about. we have a nurse at our school who gives out free condoms to the students. even so, we still have about 10 boys whose g/fs get pregnant each year. the fact that they're having unprotected sex is such a worry - our district has the highest rate for teen STIs in NZ! never mind pregnancy! at least here in NZ we can talk with them (students) about these things - we don't have the constraints the USA has.

ok, enough of my babble. what are you going to do today for yourself? what will be your "reach out" thing to DD today?

Aaagh typed a repy and lost it.

Letty please do not feel you gave me false hope. An earlier post stated me thinking how we could use our knowledge of wayward behaviour to achieve a positve outcome.

If WS are selfish and only care about having their selfish needs met, I wondered if we could turn the devastation around by presenting situations to the WS in such a way that it appears, to meet their selfish needs and in turn influence their negative behaviour to produce a positive outcome. I honestly did not know how or if I could apply this theory to my DD16 situation. It was really me thinking aloud.

I have had this conversation with DD16. Pre A, we used to openly communicate with our children about issues they may face in their teens - sex, alcohol, drugs. I did a "How to drug Proof Your Children" Course. We also told our children we would always be available to talk to them about anything. We too had incentives and hoped the values we taught and tools we provided them with would see them through any situation they may face.

I personally prefer to express my thoughts and feelings about Isildur and PEGI. The more I learn about the behaviour of waywards and their AP, the better eqipped I am and it helps me to deal with the situation. Knowledge is power. I find I actually spend less energy on them if I use my time on MB for learning, seeking advice or expressing feelings, than if I wonder about them 24/7.

Today was a classic example, the knowledge I have gained on MB has helped me reach a decision about the next step I need to take to protect my family's financial security and potentially starve the A.

Letty I forgot to add. I have sent DD16 a text saying I love her, how is she, anything exciting planned for the long weekend. Tomorrow I'm planning on asking if she would like to go out for coffee and cake. I'll keep the communication light and positive.

You sound so good, Happy! Stronger, more in control. Great idea with your daughter. You're a smart lady, and you're doing great:)

Its funny you say that I had contact with Isildur today. I had to text him about an urgent legal matter to do with another property we own in another city. We had to respond within a 1/2hr period and sign, forward a scanned copy before the deadline and mail the orginal document. Isildur had to drop the document for me to sign and take it back to his office to scan and send.

The text communication was brief and only related to the urgent matter at hand and when he came I did not communicate with him, I signed the document in a separate room, returned it to him and left the room, he left the house.

Sadly DD6 didn't appear to be bothered by the short visit. I did prepare him but he was more focused on the x box game he was playing than being upset that his father was here for 5 mins if that. DD18 didn't even come downstairs to say hi, nor did his father go upstairs to say hi.

Isildur today confirmed how wayward he is. This confirmation has helped me decide my next step to protect our families financial security and starve the A. Somehow I have been able to focus on what I need to do rather than feeling hurt. Hopefully it won't hit me later. Or maybe I have accepted he is now Isildur and not the man I knew and capable of such alien behaviour. Maybe its a combination of everything, I just hope I'm not at the top of the hill on the rollercoaster.

The last 2 days have been challenging. I have always tried to remain positive and joked its charater building, but I think I've had enough of the building. If there is such a thing as past lives and the challenges we face in this life are b/c we didn't learn the lesson of the last, all I can say is I must have been pretty thick! You have to find something to laugh about for the sake of sanity.