Yes I follow Blackhawk like a hawk. I am well versed on his thread.

I am trying to ... he can continue his Plan A until he has a plan. That is what I have stated repeatedly. What other option does he have? An immediate Plan B? He can stay in Plan A until he has his facts and get organized. That is how I am trying to help him.

As I stated earlier once he has all the facts he can make choices and get his plan established.

Why don't you post how to help him, and I will also post on how to help him. Then he has lots of posters advising him and he can get a good plan started.

PI, this is Dr Harley's advice to couples after an affair. This is the first plan of attack. One does not automatically jump to a prolonged Plan A unless all efforts at recovery have been exhausted. This poster does not even know about Marriage Builder's plan for recovery so that is where we need to START.

here

I found the posts. Here is Dr. Harley talking to Steve on 25 October 2011. This is Dr. Harley's advice. Steve's wife had an affair.

This caller's wife won't meet his needs. She won't get into an emotional relationship with him. Dr. Harley advises 2 years of Plan A. Driven it may not be for you...others may post that give you a better plan. I am just passing on some of what Dr. Harley has advised before as well as in Blackhawk's case Steve Harley advised.

Driven ... you can listen for yourself. He explains it well in Section #3, but listen to all clips to see if you can relate.


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#2 of 3
#3 of 3

I never said I disagreed with getting him going on MB recovery. I believe until he has a plan, has his facts straight he can stay in Plan A.

PI, this is another example of you taking things out of context that you hear. You know a few concepts but you don't know where or how to fit them in place.

When someone comes here seeking help after an affair has ended, we don't push them into Plan A. Plan A will not save a marriage. We teach them the steps necessary to recover a marriage. You can read Dr Harley's quote yourself about what is required for recovery. Did you read that? He has numerous other articles and books about the very specific steps to recovery.

He doesn't say in there "go into Plan A!" No, he gives very specific steps for recovery. This poster is not familiar with those steps, so common sense would dictate that the first step is to learn the concepts and do his best to implement them in his own marriage. THAT is his first step. Plan A should be only be advised as a plan of last resort. It is never the FIRST resort.

MOST of the marriages that present to the Harley's contain a reluctant spouse. They don't tell the other spouse to rush into Plan A. Oh no, they first try to sell this program to the reluctant spouse and persuade him/her to try the program.

If Plan A were the first line of defense, Dr Harley would have said that. He did not. And he doesn't even say that to couples who present with a reluctant spouse. He first tries to sell that spouse.

Unfortunately, this man's thread has to be disrupted with exhaustive explanations to YOU about very basic issues. This is why I am asking that you back away and let the rest of us help this man.

Focus on the PLAN to save his marriage, PI. Plan A will not save his marriage. Rather than telling him to "Plan A like a rockstar" he needs to learn the MB plan and sell it "like a rockstar." THAT will save his marriage.

All, I am overwhelmed by the outpouring of support and by the long list of very insightful comments and suggestions. How I wish I would have found MB and this forum a year ago.

First I need to reiterate that I am 100% certain there has been no contact with AP (sorry OM just doesn't seem to apply to a 19 year old) since July of 2011. I am also 100% certain there is no OM in this equation. Related to snooping and surveillance, suffice it to say that I could write a book on this topic. Has she thought about him? Yes. At the 1 year anniversary of D-day she was thinking about him. Facebook, email and phone, all blocked. I'm quite certain all memorabilia have been purged as well. Keep in mind the entire affair event lasted 25 days. How much could one person still be missing someone you only knew for a few weeks and haven't heard from in a year? What she mourns is the "feeling" of falling in love.

Has she always been this selfish? Not to this extreme, but she was an only child. Stubbornness is another factor. She has Scottish genes and tends to hold a grudge for a very long time. When friends and acquaintances have wronged her in the past, she tends to cut them out of her life permanently rather than try to repair the relationship.

No plan for recovery, slogging along. Yes, I totally agree. But it's not for lack of one partner (me) willing to devote 500% effort to making things great for us. My continued frustration has been that no matter what I try, no matter what I ask for, no matter how it is presented, she resists.

Related to past financial security issues. We had years of unresolved tax return issues resulting from the failure of our family business. These issues have all been resolved and we are in fact expecting a refund from the IRS when all said and done. It's a bitter topic for us both because the reality is she is in a substantial way the cause of our past tax problems -- but of course she lives in denial and chooses to blame me. In any case, the "tax problems" that were the first issue she pointed to as the cause of her long-term unhappiness in the marriage have been completely resolved. When she learned we didn't actually owe a bunch of $ to the IRS, she was furious -- it pulled the rug out from underneath her justification for leaving the marriage. I'm not sure she's even over her anger on this.

Have to run for now but will post more later. Thank you again everyone!

Driven, that is what I suspected, which is why I suggested getting counseling with Steve Harley. One of the biggest problems with waywards is they don't believe they can ever be in love with their spouse. What Harley does is shows them a plan that will do exactly that and then persuades her to go through the motions. Going through the motions can produce dramatic effects in about 8 weeks.

If someone can persuade your wife to do these things it would make a difference. But as it is now, she doesn't believe it. And to be honest, most marriage counselors don't believe it either, which is why they are so ineffective.

If you can swing counseling with Steve Harley, he might make a big difference.

Welcome.

Can you afford the coaching center? They will give you a plan and are very good in getting a reluctant or withdrawn spouse on board.

Here's an excellent radio clip of Dr. Harley talking about how "we need to be a good salesman when we present things to our spouse".

The couple had issues with DJ and finances but you can hear how Dr. Harley explains the salesman pitch.

Tell me what you think. It's at about the 5 min mark but I would listen to the whole clip.

Segment #2

Driven2,

Keep in mind the entire affair event lasted 25 days.

But it is a year or so now and you face a lifetime of poor marriage if you do not recover. Most marriages never really recover from an affair an limp along for years that way.

The effects of an affair are disproportionately larger than the actual facts of the affair itself, and they do not fade with time.

God Bless
Gamma

This resonates with me. Previously she has expressed her fears for the marriage to be: 1) "That it will stay the same; 2) That I will lose my identity in motherhood & wife; 3) That I will never feel love and passion; 4) That it will never be fun; and 5) That I will stay numb and problems will never be addressed."

What do you think? Should I first try to set up some sessions with Steve Harley for myself to get his direction on how to persuade her to participate in joint sessions? I've been trying off and on for a year to get her back to joint counseling to no avail.

She continues to see our original "marriage counselor" alone in spite of my extreme objections to this. The "counselor," and I use the term loosely, has been so incredibly biased against me, and against staying married, I have been shocked. Additionally, this "counselor" has done and said some shockingly unethical things that nearly caused us to divorce prematurely. If I had the time and energy I would make a serious attempt to have this person's license revoked.

My wife is acutely sensitive to having anyone point out what HER failures and bad behaviors are/have been. Conversely, she LOVES anyone who will side with her to validate her own reinvented history of our marriage and/or join her in blaming her husband for what is wrong with our marriage.

The prospect of working with someone who is particularly skilled at persuading reluctant spouses to get on board with a plan for marriage recovery is very appealing...

Steve or Jennifer will talk with you both individually at first.

Hiya and welcome, i'm glad you are finding this forum helpful.

I'm very sorry that your WW isn't coming to the party - yet.

I want to add a few points from my experience as a WW.

The fact that she 'mourns the feeling of falling in love'... I have issues with this. I thought i was 'in love' with this OM, however after coming out of the foggy deceived state i was in I recognised the feelings for what they were. LUST. Not love, in any way, shape or form. Yes, the OM was meeting some of my emotional needs. Doesn't make it love though. I have good GFs that can meet those needs as well... the fact that i let another man do that speaks of my (former) extrememly poor boundaries around other men. Unfortuantley i was not acutley aware of the importance of boundaries until the crisis.

This marriage counsellor she is seeing sounds... well, crap. Is he/she a christian? Get rid of them. Let your wife know that this is one of the conditions of you staying. She is not in a position to dictate the terms of recovery, you, as the victim need to be in the driving seat in terms how to do this recovery. I was not making sensible decisions when i was in false recovery, and i needed someone else who was seeing things clearly to dictate the terms.

A note about falling in love - I had actually started to pray for this when i was in my false recovery. And God delievered. Unfortuantley for me, it may be too late. My H has not yet indicated he wants to recover my marriage. But the positive thing here is that IT IS POSSIBLE! I am more in love with my amazing wonderful H than i have been since we got married. It's a bittersweet situation.

Your wife needs to come completely out of the fog and have a change of heart... and i'll pray for your situation.

God Bless.

hi again, driven, i'm home from work now.

if you can afford the harleys, by all means, do so. you couldn't get better help. get rid of any other IC/MCs. they are incredibly poor at M counselling, unfortunately. been there, done that.

your wife will never get *that* feeling back as long as she withholds herself. SH could get her on the right track to do so, if you are 100% confident that there is no OM in the picture.

i see it like any other thing, but say dieting or running a marathon. as long as you sit around all day *thinking* about it, nothing changes for you to lose weight or handle a 26 mile jog. whether you think you can, or think you can't, you're right! she has to start working towards it, or it doesn't just stay static, it degrades even more.

i urge you to contact the counselling center. best money you'll ever spend.

Yes, I would set up a counseling session just for you. He won't counsel you together anyway because they don't believe in doing that. Counseling couples together causes alot of damage. What he typically does is split an hour between couples, whereas, you will counsel with him the first 30 minutes and she will counsel with him the last 30 minutes. He is very directive and action oriented so most of the time will be spent going over the assessment of your marriage and an action plan.

Steve will tell you what to say to her to get her on the phone with him for an upcoming session. And you can trust that he won't throw you under the bus like many marriage counselors do.

Does your wife go out partying without you? How much time - alone - would say you spend together every week?

I can definitely identify with the caller Steve in this example. Like him, I have essentially dedicated my life to trying to fix my marriage for the past 14 months and have reached a point where I am exhausted and discouraged.

I get what the DR is trying to say -- Stay with it and eventually she will come around; and the change will happen almost instantly.

Not so encouraging to hear is the DR's advice to the caller about his wife's love busting behaviors and her conscious choice to not work on the marriage. The doctor advises: Never say anything disrespectful, don�t tell her she needs to do her part, or that she�s not doing what she�s supposed to be doing as a wife. Don�t threaten her, don�t upset her.

Really? No matter what she says or does? I'm supposed to kiss her [censored] and be a complete doormat while she walks all over me for two years???

The advice creates a paradox: While trying to win her back, you can't ever comment on anything she's doing wrong. But to create love you have to be open and honest with your spouse about your feelings.

The caller also brings up a good point. "At what point do you consider the WS's unloving, hurtful, unhelpful (to fixing the marriage) behaviors to be abuse?"

The goal is to try and win her enough to sell the Marriage builder's program. That is why Plan A is discussed. It is your opportunity to show her you are a changed man and this is what your marriage will be like.

You demonstrate to her you have gotten rid of your Lovebusters and you have made changes with yourself.

Dr. Harley advises a man can do this for 2 years, and then he recommends Plan B.

Have you snooped and ruled out any possibility of a new OM? If she is in an affair now, how you approach the situation changes it isn't recovery it is kill the affair time.

Ultimately you will have to decide how much you can take. You may also want to email Dr. Harley and also ask him.

Your WW is abusive. AO's are abuse. She sounds incredibly selfish and her behavior is her character. She has lots of work to do on her side of the fence. We cannot worry about that now...the first part is to make sure there isn't a new affair and then to win her back into conflict.

Dr. Harley is mbradio@marriagebuilders.com

Driven, as you have seen, Plan A has not worked in the past and it won't work in the future. That is not how you save a marriage. It only serves to wear you down, which is why you need to get her sold on a plan of recovery FIRST. You are about at the end of your rope, at a place where it is difficult to endure her neglect and abuse. This is why I am suggesting a different approach. If you can recruit Steve Harley to sell her on this program, this will all change. You won't be enduring her abuse and neglect if she gets on board because this program eliminates lovebusters.

If you can swing it, I think Steve Harley would make a huge difference in your marriage.

I also question if she is not still in an affair. She sounds very much like someone who is in an active affair. Have you done a really thorough job of ruling that out?

p.s. one really positive aspect is that she has been willing in the past to try things to save your marriage. Unfortunately, none of them has included a plan to restore the romantic love in your marriage. If you can get her on board with this, this plan would make a difference and it would happen fairly quickly. You just need help getting her to that place.

What does she discuss with the marriage counselor alone?