So when is he writing the NCL? It's very concerning that he's still dragging his feet on this.

What EPs has he written?

When is your date for him to write the NCL? You need to start planning for Plan B if he keeps hedging on the NCL.

Brainhurts,
What is EP? I copied and pasted the acronyms list from another person's posting, but EP is not on it.

We deleted/unfriended OW from Facebook and two other sites this morning. WH gave me passwords to FB and two other sites.

A little while later I realized he keeps saying, "Fine! There's been no contact through those channels anyway!"

He may be telling the truth but also omitting it. I will have to ask him if he HAS been contacted via another channel.

Also, I just now recalled that he has a gmail account. I did not ask for that password and he did not volunteer it. I don't think he uses it and so forgot it, but obviously I have to verify that.

He isn't always quick regarding matters involving a tough choice, so dragging on NCL may not be dragging so much as typical slowness coming to decision. That is why I have not been as concerned as it seems I might be.

I have not set a date by which the NCL must be written because that means saying, "Or you must leave."

If I end up saying he must go, does he get to take his car, laptop, etc? Don't want to let him take anything. But how do I stop him from taking his property with him?

I SO do not want to go there!!!!

I earn freelance $$ but not enough to be financially independent. I depend on WH for mortgage, health benefits through his job, and some bills; my income pays other bills plus ridiculous property taxes.

Our youngest has one more expensive year of college that would simply not happen if my husband were to leave and deny us his income.

I still can't believe this is happening to me.

In additiion to this please listen to this radio clip on EPs.
Radio clip on EPs

Can't get my little computer to open the EPs clip. I will find it elsewhere on the MB site.

I have read MB articles on EPs and should have guessed what it meant.

I sent WH an e-mail stating why the NCL was needful (intentionally flee temptation and definitely indicate so to OW, consider what it would be like for me to have to encounter OW, acknowledge to self that temptation for OW triggered by encounters is not good for her either).

We are both at home, me working and he with injury -- we have talked a lot and I have not gotten much work done -- writing the e-mail was more important.

He responded. He says such a letter, esp. after 8-9 months, would be hateful and indicate we thought OW so odious we rejected her utterly; my H says he wouldn't do that to anybody.

I responded (as I have many times in disucssion, now in e-mail writing) that forgiveness is not the issue, but wisdom about emotional triggers (which got him and OW back into trouble in the past) and consideration for me. Don't know if he saw that e-mail yet; he had to leave to take care of a (very unfair) traffic fine.

Watching him get ready to go, I was overwhelmed with how much I really do love him. I see on other posts descriptions of marriages that show me that my H and I really do have a lot of love and good in our marriage.

Defining what is happening is hard. H naturally does not want to be strong-armed into writing the letter -- he is more resistant to being convinced by reason than I tend to be -- and I leave room for him really believing that an NCL would be unkind.

I wrote that I believe the Holy Spirit will reveal the necessity of the NCL to him.

My persistence has overcome his objections to things like disconnecting from electronic sites etc. (I didn't ask yet about his gmail but will tonight). Also in his e-mail responses today he indicates a lot more recognition of how wrong the EA was, without using pastoring as an excuse any more.

Because I did not enact nearly enough exposure until last week, and because I do see serious progress in WH admitting how wrong the whole things was, etc., I really believe I am in Plan A and need to remain so a while longer.

I almost wish I did not love my husband so much; makes it easy to go too easy -- but have achieved important things including important changes in dialogue about NCL and will persist.

I see no hate involved in letting someone know that there is no future with them. Close that door. It will be an act of kindness for all of you. Does your husband not wish to conduct an act of kindness for everyone concerned (mainly you - I am appalled that he would still be considering that woman's feelings over yours.)

Struggling, have you put a keylogger on his computer? I'm sorry - I'm sure this has been suggested to you before, but it doesn't sound like you've done so.

Ditto. Please listen strugglg2moveon. This is what we've been trying to tell you.

Thanks, MaritalBliss. When you put things in words so clearly, I am able to implement them in my talks with my husband, and I do.

No keylogger. Is that a device that would be installed or software that would be downloaded? At this point my H would not agree to it. And I am not ready to do that level of snooping. I know MB recommends it, and if I have to I will, but the thought of having to do that nauseates me. I will get used to the thought if I have to -- just the way I got used to the thought of exposing to kids and friends -- but if I get a keylogger, I'll feel like a jailer.

We each have our own laptop.

Long discussion this morning in which I was able to use the A word -- adulterous -- without H running out of the house.

He wants to claim that his relationship with OW was never in competition with his relationship with me. I was able to say that a relationship of emotional closeness with another woman is always in competition with his marital relationship because emotional closeness is the core of the marriage, not physical sex. He said adultery was only physical sex outside of marriage. I told him that any relationship with another woman in which he lied to me, deceived me, and in so many ways put her ahead of me was adulterous. He said, "Okay, by THAT definition it is" -- a first.

At that point he was getting really upset and telling me not to keep nailing him to the wall -- that when he says he wants to leave me (which he has said a few times this week), it's because I always nail him to the wall.

Until he sees the EA for what it is, I don't feel safe.

Toward the beginning of this discussion he said something about being willing to write a letter that says the relationship was wrong -- THAt is progress -- but not include language that would indicate he will intentionally do all possible to avoid running into OW.

I will not let that point go, however.

We got into a discussion of the meaning of exposing sin. He says it is unkind and started naming examples of people we have known caught in sin. I pointed out that their sin did not stop UNTIL the person was exposed. He is still smarting over my exposing to kids and friends. He does not recall that only after I exposed to his brother and sister in October did he finally agree to counseling and finally stop running out of the house with a packed bag, then calling me from an undisclosed location via cell phone and bullying me with threats of abandonment.

It's hard for him to see this "wonderful friendship" (as he put it) as something that was point-blank wrong. Until he does see that, we can't go forward. This revelation is the work of the moment. It's really hard work. But it is happening.

I am going to get my NCL.

After one of these discussions, my husband and I just stay apart for half an hour or so. (He is home with work-related injury.) Then we see each other and can't stop looking at each other with love.

Much defining of what constitutes friendship, adultery, appropriate exposure of sin, is occurring for my H and me. You at MB are deeply familiar with all these concepts, but I had to get used to them by reading the site for many hours, and via me, my husband is getting used to them too. As are my kids.

Sorry. I have seen all this before - in my marriage in 2008. Your husband is in contact with this woman and is in "the fog". He is more involved with this woman than he has admitted to you and he is gaslighting you.

You NEED a keylogger on any computer your husband is using. Your husband is lying and you need to identify the extent of what is happening.

AM

Another obstacle is my WH denies ever thinking of running off with OW. It was just a close friendship, he says. If I said, "Wouldn't it be kinder for OW to know she has no future with you?" he would deny either he or she saw a future together in the first place.

He was trying to be there for OW so she could handle her bad relationship with her husband -- that is his idea. (All during 2009 when I was protesting the growing closeness, the issue was not her husband, but her contention with the church leadership over pay and position -- her H was never mentioned.)

With so many beclouding excuses, applying meaning to actions becomes an occasion for argument. That's how the relationship persisted so long despite my protests and discomfort; and how my H could see clear to accuse me of not understanding his heart, and deny emotional infidelity.

The clouds are evaporating in the attack of light (exposure).

Affairs are addictions. Your H does not want to give up the "high" feelings he gets from contact with OW. And who knows what they talked about? Waywards lie about everything and make all kinds of excuses to justify their behavior.

AM

Put a keylogger on now.
Keylogger Programs

Your WH is gaslighting you.
Please explain gaslighting

Please listen to these clips about a woman in denial about her WH's affair.
Radio clip of a BW in denial of her WH's Affair
Segment #2
Segment #3

Big breakthrough last night. My husband and I had been communicating by e-mail as well as talking. He sent me an e-mail claiming he would not have big feelings stirred if he saw OW again at some church function because he has repented and that the close friendship he had with OW did not in any way equal his relationship with me nor compete with it and he never stopped loving me.

I was so depressed after that -- my husband could see it -- and I really couldn't eat even though my fast has made me hungry. I decided yesterday that I would tell him today that he would have to leave. (If I act too fast on matters of intense feeling, I do not control my anger well. MB's Lovebusters articles showed me how damaging my anger had been so I enact measures to control it.)

When we came to bed last night he asked if I needed to talk. I told him bluntly how that e-mail devastated me. He completely reversed his defenses. He fully admitted that the relationship went completely wrong and severely damaged our marriage. He said he was willing to write the NCL. He said he wasn't willing to put in "forever and ever," but would agree to "for the foreseeable future."

I want the languge to be more permanent than that. I believe I will arive at that point. We will write the NCL today.

I respect your experience and am not rejecting getting a keylogger. I couldn't listen to the radio clips because my computer won't open through the link, but when I can later I will find them through the MB site. (I still have to get my freelance work done through all of this.)

Thank you for your liberating words, and for your amazing time, support, and wisdom.

I do recognize my H and I are still vulnerable and I cannot let down my diligence for both our sakes going into the future. Nonetheless, I believe this breakthrough is real. I will post again as soon as I can after we write the NCL, which I intend to make happen this morning.

If he sees her at a church function or anywhere will allow all the affair to be reignited.

Why don't you follow the template from here? No contact letter samples

Brainhurts,
I do have those samples stored in my computer. They have helped a lot.

Rereading the SAA articles on the MB site have helped, too.

After yesterday morning's discussion, I asked if I could draft an NCL. WH said yes. Then we spent the day together taking care of some things. Late at night, WH approved all of the letter except for the line "As you know,OW, part of healing our marriage is my permanent commitment to BW not to see or have any further contact with you."

Even that line is good except for the word "permanent."

I told him that is the most important line in the whole letter for me.

He said, "Maybe futher PERSONAL contact." But he dropped that right away w/o me saying a word b/c he knows I won't accept such a huge loophole.

I just read the fog link, so I'll use the term "fog." He reverted somewhat to fog -- "I should be able to go to our church friend's wedding this coming Saturday, and if OW is there, obviously not talk to her, but I mean if I can't even see her in the distance without you worrying, then we are bound! I'm a prisoner in my own house!"

He commented that it was like we wouldn't be able to go to any friends' functions w/o asking for the guest list.

Beyond pointing out that I would make the commitment of signing an NCL for him, and pointing out definite times when I had backed off from an opposite-sex relationship because I could tell it discomfited him, I did not argue. My points hit home because he can't deny they are true; we were even able to talk about my crush on the senior pastor long ago and establish further that I had never tried to pursue it. He remembers that I had told him about it right away.

My husband is at a stage I myself have only just passed through: growing realization of the wide consequences of this EA, and the pain over the loss of so much social interaction with loved people.

Today we went to a church we had not visited before. During the worship I felt God tell me to tell my husband we would return to the NCL tomorrow morning. I did so. He nodded and is outside painting a fence he built.

Here's something important: In the middle of last week, My husband sent a letter resigning from our denomination to our senior pastor (who leads the denomination, and to whom my H was accountable as an elder).

He has complained for many years that he wanted to do that. He's giving himself an exit story by doing it now. This may work much to my advantage (though it won't protect him from further exposure of the EA).

I believe WH will sign the NCL tomorrow because, among other things, (1) we have been away from our church so long, and have visited enough other churches, that I can lay out a vision for developing new friendships, (2) my husband doesn't even want to stay in our denomination, in which OW is entrenched (3) my H knows our kids want him to sign the NCL, (4) he knows what it means to me and seems more and more cognizant of how terribly the EA affected our marriage.

Nonetheless, I am reviewing Plan B. We are at a critical moment.

Struggling

All the while refusing to write an NC letter, my H tried to baragin for 1) remaning friends with OW and then 2) seeing OW only at work and then 3) limiting interaction with OW to prefessional interaction. Needless to say, he refused to write an NC letter. They had a touching good-bye his last day at work. I launched to the moon. Only then did he write the letter. AND then, 16 months later, he sent her an email detailing how unhappy he was and asking whether she was happy.

Quit gobbling up the crumbs he is throwing your way, and go Plan B. I did this - and can see it when it happens. Your husband is not near any commitment to your marriage.

AM

I agree.

Get your Plan B aligned up and set it in play. Then he might take you seriously. He isn't doing that now.

Also Struggling please listen to this clip of what Dr. Harley says a remorseful WH should do for his BW to let him back into the M.
Excellent radio clip where Dr. H talks about what a WH should do for his wife to give him another try after his affairs. He explains it like an addict.

Radio Clip on a WH on what to do to get back with his wife 3:50 mark