NO. you should not find out. jah, you have way too much post plan b info to be completely dark.

you, like many of us, are in that hopeful place - "this will do the trick!" sometimes it does. sometimes it doesn't. i have noticed that sometimes thread titles are our secret realizations. yours says "time to quit?" this may be a reality. you knew this when you entered plan b.

in plan b, you are supposed to be thinking of yourself. what have you done for YOU today? that doesn't have anything to do with your WW?

Hi Letty. Thanks for the support.

Yes, I am doing things for myself. I bought a stand-up paddle board and a few days ago went surfing for the first time; that was a fun experience. I've tried surfing before, but never was able to 'pop up' and stand; this way I'm already standing. I went out last night to play poker with some of my buddies (first time I've been out with friends for a few weeks). I also am applying to a job in my home town where I grew up, closer to family; this is the job I have always wanted. It's about 200 miles away from where I live now. So yes, I am still having cautious hope but I'm also moving on.

very good to hear. had forgotten about the paddleboard! how is it? it looks scary to someone like me with little balance control! good for the bod and the head, eh?

Hehe, yes, paddleboarding is good on many levels. It's good exercise, good to relax, and good to clear my head.

I think I might as well reveal my state since I am talking about paddleboarding; I live in Hawaii and thus I get to paddleboard out to the ocean and watch sunsets. Very nice.

But if you lose your balance; it's like hitting the floor! Pretty painful!

Jealous

Whew, if you have to go through Hell, paradise is the place to do it!

Ditto on the jealous, BTW.

Jah,
When you mention that your wife worked hard and saved her money to buy an iPad for yor birthday I understand your pain and confusion.
My ww also gave me gift to make me happy.
In my pain and confusion one board member told me something that helped me: he said pretend that your wife is posessed by aliens. Same body, different person. It helped me. Maybe it will help you.

Dr Harley says thy affair participants exhibit behavior similar to addicts. Their addictions/ affairs control them

Route that number to answering service perhaps?

HDW - My wife possessed by aliens? That's an interesting thought; although then I would be thinking, "Where did you put my wife's real mind! I want her back!" But alas, the alien race is to advance for our medical technology, so I can't do anything about it.

I like the idea of addiction, though. I feel exactly that way, like my wife is on meth and can't get enough. I have worked with meth addicts before, and sometimes when you try everything and it doesn't work, you just have to learn to let go. This is why I keep going, because although this is my wife's third time, I have not tried everything. In fact, the first two times I basically tried NOTHING (i.e. marriage counseling).

CGB - Thanks for the idea; I did think about using an answering service, and there is an physician answering service in my state. But I'd still have to notify my patients of the number change, and it's 85$ a month and 0.50 cents a call. If I routed my number straight to the service, my wife could easily lie to get to me.

I'm going to hold off for a little more and if it continues to be a big problem I'll have to do something about it.

Excellent radio clip where Dr. H talks about what a WH should do for his wife to give him another try after his affairs. He explains it like an addict.

Radio Clip on a WH on what to do to get back with his wife 3:50 mark
You can hear how he explains it like an addict.

Thanks BH, I really appreciated that clip. It gave me alot to think about.

A little more about my background . . . I started off my medical residency training in child psychiatry and adult psychiatry. I did a year of that - and then switched to pediatrics. Couldn't stand the hopelessness. So I do have a little experience in psychiatry and addictions.

I remember being locked up in the psych ER working with drug addicts, seeing how crazy they can get. I worked in the addiction clinics, and I felt hopeless seeing how many of them were going nowhere, low-income with no family support, cycling in and out of drug addiction. That's why I gave up.

Fast forward to my current situation. I want to make a point here.

I have been getting alot of people telling me that my wife had an affair three times, that she's obviously not marriage material, that I don't have kids yet to complicate things, and that I should just give up and divorce. I respect each and every one of your opinions. But I still respectfully disagree.

I will take every criticism you want to give me for being an enabler, a doormat, a pansy, gullible, stubborn, etc. I understand that point and I am trying to change my life. Not for my wife, but FOR MYSELF.

But I will not take criticism for being faithful and loyal to my wife, for giving my marriage every chance possible. I am trying my best here, and I will hold my head high no matter what knowing I did everything I could.

Think about this: as betrayed spouses know, wayward spouses often have this either religious or fairytail fantasy thought that "This person was meant to be with me! It's destiny! God made it happen! It's true love!" My wife falls in this category. But we all know that's not how love and marriage works.

In the same way, anyone who thinks, "She cheated on you three times! Your love should be strong enough for her not to do that! She doesn't care about you or your marriage at all." is crazy also, I think. My wife had two affairs before I found marriage builders. My action to the first two affairs was continuing to be enabling, to do no exposure, to remain a 'doormat' and to start seeing a marriage counseler (which was retrospectively absolutely worthless). I don't blame myself for my wife's affairs, but at the same time, I understand why they continued. It's because I am a HUGE enabler, probably the biggest one here.

But after this third affair, I am taking action this time with a plan. I have the support of family and friends, as well as the support of my wife's family and friends who will hold her accountable. I have the support of the people here on marriage builders. I have a list of conditions (Extraordinary Precautions) to make another affair unlikely, and I plan to add to that list as I learn more. I want to change myself from being an enabler. So yes, this is my wifes third affair, but this time I'm taking action and doing EVERYTHING that I can.

So lets compare it again to an addiction. Lets say my wife had an addiction to cocaine, and all I did was told her to stop because it's wrong, and I told her that it's hurting me. And that's all I did. If she did stop for awhile and then went back and used cocaine again, can you blame her? If I didn't have a plan or a made her go through an addiction program, and I basically hoped her love for me and seeing how much it hurt me would help her stop, can you blame her for doing it again? I'd blame myself for being an idiot. Drugs like cocaine or meth makes people crazy and not think straight; it is the same with a wayward spouse with they way they are in the 'fog', I think. And if I stuck by my wife and tried everything I could to get her out of her cocaine addiction, would you respect my decision?

That is how I feel about the whole situation. I want to do this properly this time, doing everything I can. But I am NOT going to give up on my wife, even after the third affair, because I didn't do anything to correct things after the first two times. I still care about my wife, and I care about our marriage.

But lets say if after I do all these precautions on working on our marriage properly, go through marriage builders, and have a good plan in place and people holding her accountable, if after all this my wife goes and has a FOURTH affair? I'm ready to let go, because sometimes you just have to admit there is no saving some people. Just like addicts who despite having all the support in the world and finishing a good drug rehab program, if they end up doing drugs again, sometimes you just have to let them go.

So again, you can criticize me all you want for being a 'enabler, a doormat, a pansy, gullible, etc.' I will accept your criticism and I will try my best to learn from it.

But don't criticize me for still holding on to plan B, still trying my best, even after the third affair. For being loyal. For giving my marriage a chance because I'm an old fashioned guy that refuses to give up on the concept of marriage, that I don't abandon my wife until I have tried everything there is and there is no hope left.

Sorry about the rant; let the criticism begin!

On your wife not being marriage material that everyone is telling you.

Have you read Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders the book by Dr. Harley? If not you should get it, it's very good.

Here's a cliff notes version. Tell me what you think.
Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders

I'm not going to criticise Jah. I believe loyalty is always admirable. Even if in some cases it is misguided. Your loyalty IS misguided. WW has shown you no loyalty. But I don't believe any of us here on MB can tell you that you are wrong to give your WW every chance to recover the marriage, providing you are following the plans.

When I first started fighting for my marriage, I believed I would do anything to save my WH from his addiction, to save him. I did not want to give up on him. Our marriage, and the man he was, were worth the fight.

I believed everything he had offered me, and what we had experienced together, meant I should fight all the harder. That I owed him this.

Your sitch is different in that you KNOW WW is a serial cheater. You seem to be weighing this up, knowing it places you in a more precarious position. Your WW has MUCH more to change. Her behaviour is a PATTERN.

I am 12 months since D Day. I have fought with all I had. My IM can testify to that. My parents can testify to that. I have given this my all. Plan A, Exposure, Plan B, and re-exposure. I may not have done everything exactly according to MB plans, but I followed them as best I could with the information I had to hand. I was trickle truthed at its finest.

I want you to know this... Now... I am PROUD I acted as I did and continue to do. I have done everything I could to stand up for what is right. For what I believe in.

I no longer care so much what others or WH believes in. Plan B is about me. Even in Plan B, when I continue to challenge WH, it is about whether this challenge will make me feel better. Not about what effect it will have on him. I no longer believe anything I do has an effect on WH, and this is no longer what drives me.

I know that I can not educate a wayward.

What motivates me is what will make me feel good about myself at the end of the day, and possibly the end of the marriage.

I will be able to walk away knowing I did all I could. I take great satisfaction in this.

Also here's the thread on vultures you were asking about.
Vultures

Hey BH. Thanks for that link, I think you solved all our problems! Honestly, that is probably the biggest problem I see in our marriage. I am a full giver, she is a full taker, and we are both renters. My taker side is screaming out loud, and that has made me so irritable this past year. Do you know what I used to tell my wife for all these years? Over and over? "My happiness comes from your happiness." I thought that was a sweet statement to make, but now I understand how it's absolutely terrible! No wonder I was a 'doormat'.

I will certainly get that book. I am still trying to read through SAA, LB, HNHN, but really, that book sounds like it's gonna be much more important if we ever work on our marriage.

I don't think your wife's a renter but she's a Freeloader.
That book is definitely eye opening. It's one of my favorites.

It explains a lot about the different stages. I love that it explains how a renter can become a buyer.

Caracal, thank you for your advice. You have given me lots of advice through all this, and so I can't help but listen to what you have to say.

My loyalty might be misguided, but I want to be like you and be able to say that I did everything I possibly could to save this marriage. Then I can let it go.

In medicine, we have a joke that, "If only we had a retrospectoscope." It means that it is easy to retrospectively look back and say, "Of course this was the diagnosis! All the signs were there!" But it's easy to say say that afterwards when you know the diagnosis. It's not easy at that time.

In the same way, I know that some people with more experience will see my situation and say, "Your marriage is doomed! The signs are all there!" But it's not so easy for me to see it. And I think I might be to stubborn to believe it. But well, like in medicine, miracles do happen, right?

And like I said, I want to be like you, able to say that I did everything I could to save this marriage. Because it works both ways. If I give up now, I will regret forever not knowing if there still was a chance.

I don't know, I think I'm still just rambling on . . .

I think this is one of the most important parts of healing from infidelity and (possibly) a subsequent divorce.

Knowing you did all you could. And the wayward refused to commit to the most basic of steps.

Nope, not rambling at all. Just showing your loyalty and commitment to marriage.

Follow the plans. In your shoes, I would definately file for D. As Melody says, if you file, you are win win.

If you don't file... what advantage do you have?

Think Art of War jah. And answer that question.

Doc, I can understand your point about "all past is prologue", and starting to demand integrity and accountability only now that you have garnered knowledge of all the demands and expectations of marriage (Four strikes and you're out!). I fear you may be giving your WW too much credit for being "ignorant" as opposed to "malicious" and "selfish" here, however.

Did she not understand after A1 (giving her the first free bite at Eve's apple) the destructiveness and pain of which she was the cause? Not after A2? Do you mean to convince yourself that YOUR knowledge of MB is somehow necessary to instruct an adult woman in what "integrity", "honor", "fidelity", and "common decency" mean?

You're right, of course, in stating that your actions are driven by your goals and determine your future. My (our?) actions here are to support you and identify the rocks in your plotted course. That said, there will likely be conflicts in our discourse.

BTW: I did chuckle at your (probable) malapropism:

...wayward spouses often have this...fairytail fantasy...

And to think I always believed that

...wayward males often have this...piece-o-tail fantasy...

(BYW: Your bumper-sticker epilogue is somewhat insulting to those faithful husbands among us who proclaim our love for our wives, without needing to apologize for indiscretions.)

None. No advantage. And in fact I have a lawyer and I am filing. But I'm not exactly rushing through the paperwork . . .