My parents just celebrated their 50 yr anniversary. My inlaws will be there in just a couple yrs. Yet IMO they are not 'happily married.' I think there is a huge difference between quantity and quality and I do think they have more the 'married at all cost' approach that MB does NOT support. So, I am glad we are not following that trend anymore.

I just think people don't KNOW how to have a good M. You are right that they don't seek help until they are in crisis. At the very least they could require kids to read HNHN and LB in 'marriage and family' class

There are so many times I think about how I would have handled X, Y or Z a year ago even, before being privy to the MB program. I don't think I was BAD as much as shaped by the media and naive and ignorant. For instance, I never thought it was wrong to date while you were working toward a D. I know people who have been in the D process for years, why would they wait to date for years? I have a different perspective on the sanctity of M now and see it differently, but I don't necessarily see everyone who thinks the opposite as bad and evil and a bunch of cheaters, because I have been there too. KWIM? Education is the key to having successful M's, this is not knowledge we are born with.

But ya, that whole budget thing.

Sorry for the trigger, Letty. It would be nice if they would just go away - but they don't, do they?! You're right: it's important to keep posting. It IS work to recover - whether personally, in the marriage, or both. A lot of times we think of recovery as "feeling good - not feeling hurt anymore" but that definition gets us into trouble. True recovery is having a better life than ever before! Just keep that in mind and the triggers won't bring you down so much - or at least, that's been my experience.

As for the bible as literature... it's a good point. Most people who are agnostics will also concede that it gives very good principles for living your life. Personally, I found that having grown up with a very self-righteous, religious mother, it was quite a long journey for me to figure out what TRUE Christianity was about rather than what the image of it is. But that's another story.

I just noticed that in my post above, I mentioned making "Marriage WORSE" and I meant marriage WORK. LOL. OH well - too late to edit.

Yes, quality and quantity aren't always the same - that's for sure! My parents have been married 52 years but I wouldn't call it happy. Yet - I've seen some married that long that are blissfully happy - but - they work at it. At the core always seems to be respect as much as love. It's quite a site when you witness it.

Marriage at all cost is definitely NOT the goal. Still, I can't help thinking way too many people throw it away way too easily. They move on and get married again and don't solve any of their issues and just end up in yet another non-satisfying union.

Personally, I think it should be both QUALITY and QUANTITY. However, no one is able to have QUALITY, ALL THE TIME, life happens and adversity strikes during different phases of our lives. Incompatibility is a FARCE. Any two people can learn to love each other properly if they're willing to make the proper adjustments and implement the creativity required to do so. I'm a big believer that marriage teaches how to become a better and more whole person. Selfishness is the root cause to divorce, and unfortunately it only takes one party to terminate a marriage due to a selfish nature.

mommyof3monkeys, I would keep all the emails especially the one about sending a care package. The OW is about to get herself in serious trouble with the federal government when she starts talking about sending packages along with what she has said in her emails. You might want to contact the USPS inspectors and let them know what is going on. That might be enough for the inspectors to make a visit to her to explain what she means by "a care package".

This is true, that life throws things our way that are not easy and we go through hard times. However, if you are constantly doing the real work and putting each other first, those times are "us against the world" rather than "us against each other." Even in times of disagreement the marriage can have quality because you are learning and growing in those times. A hard POJA situation, for instance, can teach you a lot about your spouse - if you dig deep. That's what is different about doing things the MB way: the goal is always striving for a deeper understanding and therefore, better quality AND quantity of years.

As for incompatibility being a farce - I do believe marriage is easier if certain things are considered when choosing a spouse: that you agree on the big stuff. Most people don't even look at those things and then are surprised to learn that their spouse never intends to move out of their hometown, or insists that their children are educated in a certain religious philosophy, or that their spouse never intends to even have children. (Just a few off the top of my head.) BUT... most incompatibility issues can be resolved through negotiations and POJA.

I just listened to some excellent clips on compatibility/personalities.
Radio clip on introverts and extroverts
Radio clip on different types of personality

well, H and i went to the dr yesterday for test results. his scan is clear, and blood is good, except for elevated cholesterol. he's also a little heavy and needs to lose 15lbs.

otoh, i have been diagnosed with diabetes. on top of lupus and depression, that just seems mean. i'm not horribly overweight (size 12), but my weight has increased in the last year or two and so have my eating habits, after being idle for a long time with the botched knee replacement op. this reminds me of when i tried to eat well when pregnant: got gallstones. and when i tried to increase protein in my diet: got kidney stones. i HATE lupus! i really have to go watch the last episode of house and see if the last patient has lupus - it'd be about time!

so...i had my last ciggie at 4pm yesterday (dr was at 4.30). that's 18 hours now, with only a small craving that is more habit-based. also tried equal in my tea this morning. bleech! so much sweeter than sugar! any recommendations there? it's also quite expensive (paid $6.59 for a box of 50 sachets), so i don't envision baking with it any time soon.

believe it or not, i'm more worried about how this will affect EN meeting! H really likes it when i prepare food for him. in the last week alone i've made brownies, cookies, scones, and a spiced-apple bundt cake. no wonder we're fat (of course, i AM on holiday)! i'm wondering how i can meet the love language of acts of service if i can no longer provide yummy goodness. H, of course, says that i don't need to bake anything at all, but i see results comparing when i don't and when i do.
-->rock(me)hard place<--

ok, good news: not insulin dependent. caught very early (2 years ago my sugar was perfect). but i am the first woman in my family with lupus who has lived past 40. my dad also had diabetes, and lasted only about 10 years after diagnosis (insulin dependent). granted, he'd been a lot harder on his body than i have, and he had heart disease and congestive heart failure to boot, or as my family call it, agent orange-inflicted complicating diseases.

i am very happy that H is well and good. i was so worried about losing him. now, of course, i'm feeling rather petulant. ::bratty voice:: so unfair! /bratty voice.

well, guess no time like the present to review EN questionnaires!

I am happy to hear of your H's good health, but that is really too bad about the diabetes. It does seem a tad unfair for you to have to deal with so much.

Oh I am with you about the cooking/baking thing. I love to cook and bake, but I do NOT cook healthy. I'm a homegrown midwestern and cook with bacon and butter. REAL butter and not the processed stuff. H LOVES the food I cook and I am a natural 'server' too so happily serve him like I am being paid for it, I can tell he likes that and regularly thanks me for it. But, the downside its unhealthy, doesn't help with either of us in terms of PA (not a high need of mine but a higher need of his), and frankly, I am at home all day and then I am tempted to eat when there is good food around. Likewise, he asks me to cook healthy but when I do he always complains about the food and seems to secondhandedly hold me responsible for the unsatisfying meal. It is a rock and hard place.

i had to chuckle when i got to your last 2 lines!

i too love cooking, and i only cook with the real stuff. i've always been against putting synthetic crap in my beloved food! i've always, in the back of my mind, felt that synthetic foods contributed greatly to the cancer rate. diet soda and the like have always had a place in my "hated foods" list, so i won't be drinking any of that swill. i guess i'll be adding to my 2 litres of water a day (often 4 litres, now i know why), excluding tea.


these two lines stood out to me the most - my H is JUST like that! i guess i'm going to have to do what i did early on in our marriage: cook two meals/additional side dishes. my H won't touch rice or pasta (unless it's from a chinese takeaway joint - go figure?!), so i'm going to get the rice cooker back out and replace my potatoes.

when we married, i often cooked two meals, because he's a meat & potatoes guy, and i'm not. but all these years later i find myself eating what he eats, including all the crap after dinner. i had never, in nearly 30 years, eaten after dinner! but when he comes upstairs to bed with cornettos, or caramels, or tootsie rolls (which we recently found here), well...we need to get back to basics. when we first met, our after dinner treat was fruit! H would cut it up and we'd share it (watermelon, oranges, things like that).

now we are two middle-aged old farts! how did we get this way? lmao, time to actually take care of ourselves again. at least now i have a way to get him to walk after dinner!

on a side note: has anyone here read neil gaiman & terry pratchett's Good Omens? it's about the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse (and the second coming, kinda; don't read unless you want to bust a gut from laughter. i literally blew coca-cola out my nostrils when i got the footnote on English currency). Famine is famous for creating a chain of fast food joints that serve food with 0 nutritional value, but heaps of calories. he gets giddy around anorexia, and releases a bunch of frozen "dinners" that have 0 calories, while appearing to be hearty. (i think i remember that right. something like that, anyway.) remind y'all of anything?

UGH...so sorry to hear about the diabetes, Letty! I know it must feel like a sucker punch after going through everything else.

I COMPLETELY relate to your cooking quandary. I go through the exact same thing all the time. My H says he is fine with me cooking healthy, but I get a lot more spark out of him when I cook his favorites that aren't healthy! And...not just from him, but from the rest of the family too. They would rather me cook for them than go out to a restaurant, even. They even bring their friends around for dinner every chance they get.

This is actually something I've thought about a lot lately because a lot of the fun at my house resolves around this: our home being the place everyone likes to hang out because I'll always whip up something good for them.

I think what it comes down to is planning. As a family if we can come up with certain nights that are healthy nights and others that are splurge nights, at least we will be on the right path to some degree. (Well, as long as healthy is more often than splurge, lol.) I tell ya - planning is NOT one of my strong suits, however, esp. when it comes to food.

There are certain substitutions I am learning that work - without having to resort to yucky chemicals over natural ingredients. Greek yogurt, for instance, can easily replace sour cream and mayo in a lot of cases. As for sweeteners, the only one I trust is Truvia/Stevia. It isn't cheap, however.

Oh - another trick I am using when it comes to splurges is to eat less of it and eat more slowly - especially at restaurants as their portion sizes are double what we need to begin with.

I've caught a couple episodes of Bobby Deen's new cooking show, "My Mama's Meals" and am wanting to try his recipes. As someone who grew up learning to cook very southern - I think his dishes might appeal to me.

What I'm learning is, the health of my family is an act of love, even if they don't appreciate the switches at first. LOL. Perhaps this is something we can all tackle together!

we need to start a recipe sharing thread! lol.

i noticed today (with my glasses on) that equal = 2 tsps of sugar. no wonder my tea yesterday was bleech! today i used about 1/3 sachet and it's ok. not great, but doable. seems to still have a sacchariny flavour, but that just might be in my head.

when DD lived at home, our house was the same (though probably less busy w/just 1 kid's friends!). even now, when she comes home, she contacts me first to ask if i'll make this or that, and can her friends come over and i'll make nachos for them all. mexican-style food around our town is unknown. though i do the best i can with my limited ingredient availability.

great to hear about yogurt as a substitute! i think i've heard about unsweetened applesauce as well. i've found a brand here that isn't sweetened. kiwis have a huge sweet tooth. even their marshmallows are flavoured! so is the applesauce :-P i always bring back some powered sugar, because i am positive the icing sugar is sweeter, and not suitable for buttercream frosting! ummm, buttercream...

my friend and i are going to the new usa-style bakery just down the hill from us today to check out her goodies. i figure she can buy one and i'll have a bite. the nurse dietician here said that they no longer eschew all sugar in the diet, so i've planned my whole day's menu around that one bite! it'd better be worth it! and i'm not bringing any home for H. he really does need to lower his cholesterol and lose those 15lbs, as much as i like him with a little weight on. but 6' and 205lbs will still do me just fine

argh, he looked through my paperwork from doctor and now knows EXACTLY HOW MUCH I WEIGH! i can't imagine anything more embarrassing! well, ...nope, nothing! so now, of course, i'm worried he thinks i'm all fat and horrible. though yesterday afternoon he came home early and we went for a beach drive and to the hot pools, with a little sf thrown in there, so i can't be that bad, right? :*)

my biggest problem is sweets. i eat a pretty good diet, except for having allowed sweets to accumulate. so getting rid of that daily "sweet spot" should make a heap of difference (i hope). we don't go to restaurants too often (very expensive here), and i don't care for fast food, so mostly it's all my own doing.

on a side note: in the last 11 years, i have noticed a drastic change in kiwis. when we first came here, there was only mcdonalds in our town. not even a fast-food style pizza joint. and everyone looked normal and healthy, and downright glowing from their active-outdoor lifestyles. now, though, we have BK, KFC, subway, dominoes, pizza hut, 2 noodle joints, and a number of fish & chip shops have been purchased by chinese who run a chinese fast-food sidecar to the fish & chips. and guess what? when i sit in town now, watching people go by, so many are now overweight. and i don't think it's just the availability of fast food. it has coincided with a radical change in lifestyle here which sees both parents working, and couples divorcing, just over the last decade.

i remember when i was a kid, McDs was a treat - a REAL treat. maybe 1 or 2x/year! i only have 1 memory of actually going to mcdonalds. kids these days are eating, at best, mcDs or other ff at least 2x/week. and god knows they all spend their money in the fast food shops/dairies (pies [a pie is a meat pie, think small pot pie in pastry] and sausage rolls) even when not dinner time. as a matter of fact, from what i SEE at school, most kids have way too much cash. they stop at the dairy before school for a pie & 2 litre pepsi/mountain dew, or worse, one of those nasty "energy" drinks like mother or monster. they eat chips. they go to the tuck shop (school shop) and get more pies & lollies. they hit the dairy again after school for even MORE sweets. in the one closest, you can't even get in the door for 1/2 hour! i see that they bring pretty decent packed lunches to school - sandwiches, fruit, yogurt, carrots, and usually some baked item. however, i also see a LOT of this gets thrown around, mashed on the ground, and dumped in bins. what a waste! and what a shame.

ok, i'm just running off at the mouth here. time for me to get going! y'all have a healthy day!

i've just read this article on a sex survey of women born in the 1800s. this stood out:


here's the main article at Stanford Magazine.

even in the "olden" days, women (and, presumably men, since the women found it pleasurable) found SF an important facet of a good M!

Interesting article!

I also remember when McD's was a treat instead of a go-to thing. Crazy how different our society has become. I guess it's just a sign of the times. Women started working outside of the home more, kids activities got ramped up instead of playing outside in the neighborhood, and we all needed food on the go a lot more! But... it's definitely not without its health drawbacks.

As for the hubby knowing your weight - look at it this way: it's part of O&H and the two of you knowing and understanding each other even better than before. Shame usually is what's behind us wanting to keep something from our spouses (or others) and to let go of that, with the person that shares your life, is very freeing! It's another step towards deepening your love and commitment to each other.

Letty what is wrong with your husband knowing your weight? I know my wife's weight, passwords, medications she takes, and have access to all her friends phone numbers as she has the same from me. I go with her to most doctor visits she does the same with me. That is what a marriage is all about. Complete transparency.

Hrm. Thats complex.

Yes there is the O&H aspect, but there is also the PA aspect. What if PA is very important to your H? You might wear a push up bra, clothes that accent your good features and make your not so good features a little less unflattering. Do you tell your H all of those things or do you just do your best to look nice without divulging your methods? (Until he gets you naked, then he'll know anyway, lol.)

Or, I certainly try to 'act like a lady' around H, whereas I might not act the same when I am alone. I can burp like a trucker, but in 13 yrs he's never heard me! I don't think he needs to know I can burp like a trucker (although I bet he could guess...).

My point is, is O&H really telling your spouse EVERY detail about you, even those that you might think are unflattering and unattractive?

T/J again Letty, I love your thread! Such a wealth of random need meeting conversation

oh he has open and honest access to everything in my life! he's welcome to my purse, my wallet, my computer, attends dr visits, picks up all my drugs (and i have lots) knows every penny i spend and on what, and so on, but my WEIGHT?

LO, you're male. it's a girl thing. i was born and raised in southern california, and by an older generation. as unwritten said, there are some things we just don't DO in front of our Hs. my H has never heard me, um, pass gas, EVER. i just can't, even after 18 years! it's like potty training for girls - a mental noose. he's tried to get me to, but i just CAN'T! all those years of training at my mother's knees would strangle me. he did, however, finally get me to say the word "fart." my mother would die! so knowing my weight? i don't have any women friends that would reveal their real weight to their partners - even my nz friends!

but you're right, LO, you are. him knowing it, and still thinking i'm beautiful, is incredibly freeing. it's just so hard to break that stranglehold, break through that fear, that thinking, my god, now he *probably* is thinking how gross and disgusting i am, based solely on that number (that's another bad habit - being so presumptuous that we think we know what our men are thinking). it's a huge mental hurdle. but yes, LO, i'm glad he knows, though i don't think i'd ever be able to tell him myself. sure, he knows the size labels in my clothes, but they don't really mean anything.

about weight. well, here's how i feel about weight. ladies, feel free to chime in!

just about every woman lies about it. yep, they do. and i know that they do based on what men think is an "average" weight for women. i have a favourite writer, who often has a character from our shared childhoods - the fat lady down the road who wears a beehive and a muumuu. i remember these women well - had more than 1 as a babysitter. my writer, however, is apparently sure that 160lbs is HUGE, because in every book, miss obese, who likely really weighs at least 250lbs, is described as 160lbs! now, i know his wife, and i'm pretty sure she weighs at least that, and she's not the beehive/muumuu type. i often wonder how she feels about that description (but am afraid to ask!).

most grown women do not weigh 110-115lbs. i, myself, at 5'5" and cursed with naturally huge bosoms, look fantastic and proportional at 150lbs, but i prefer 140, which is a usa size 8 these days (so when those celebrities say they're a size 4, and they are, say, any of the kardashians, they are lying!). however, i know that american society views 150lbs with disgust number-wise. so my driver's license says 130!

i have a picture of a skirt. i'll try to get it up here. a skirt my g/f and i used to wear partying down the strip back in the 80s when that kind of thing was still fun. it was our "fat day" skirt. it's 12" wide, which doesn't quite fit my very slim 18yo DD, who is a usa size 0/00 (and *much* tinier than any of the kardashian girls). gaps a bit in the waist, but hard to get over her little boy hips. the size tag says: "Size 12." and this is why american women are so screwed up about our weight! or at least my generation. double digits was definitely "fat" back in the day, and still is, culturally, which is why if you want larger than a size 10, you have to go to the "woman's section" (euphemism for "fat lady section") and this size 12 is nothing like the size 12 i currently wear. it's not much bigger than an international postage stamp. and sadly, i remember back in the 70s when a 10 was considered perfect (even before the movie). it's a pity our culture keeps trying to minimize women by literally shrinking them.

i have to say, i love clothes shopping in nz. there is no standard sizing here, so you can be different size even with the same designer! and clothes shops here, even the boutiques, carry 6-18. you will not find a 4 without a hard search, and usually in the teen shops. and many shops carry from 10-22. it's very liberating, because you are no size! and my nz driver's license? has my name, my photo, and my class (car), and whether i need to be wearing lenses. but no weight!

so, that was a bit of a rant. sorry!

ladies, do you agree? disagree? men, what do you think about women's weight?

For the record, I was advocating O&H but I don't think that means you have to let your man know all your beauty secrets or pass gas or anything of that stuff in front of him to meet the O&H requirement! lol

On the weight thing, if it's just a perception thing, it's no big deal to not discuss it. What I meant - about shame and sharing, being freeing, etc... was that if it (your actual weight) is something that you are ashamed of or embarrassed by and it is a deep-seated issue, it might be a good thing to confide in your spouse and to "let them in" so to speak. I had something similar (long story - wasn't weight, was something else) and I felt SOOO much better when H and I discussed it. I saw that something that needlessly held so much power in my brain slip away.

Having said all that - yes...weight perception can be weird. No one would ever guess that my 20 year old, beautiful, cheerleader, size 4,5'6" daughter weighs as much as she does! They would guess 115 and it's closer to 135! BUT...she has very low body fat - is all lean muscle. So, while I don't think she cares that people know how much she weights - IF they can see her - she wouldn't want someone to just "read" how much she weighs without seeing her in person, because of how she would be perceived. SO: it's not a "shame" issue, it's just vanity. lol

not vanity - skewed perceptions of others, right? she's gorgeous and healthy, but if she was judged by that *number,* she'd be "overweight" in cultural eyes because they have been deceived by the media for so very long - they can't see the truth in their faces. and that is just totally screwed up.

and if you live in LA, like i did, you run into actors/models all the time. and you see that they don't look like their photos. and then you see them say they are 110lbs, or a size 00, and you can't jibe that with the real person. but you see them in photos and films much more often, and so are led to believe that celebrities really look like that when they don't.

and yes, _playboy_, with all your 5'7", 115lbs "models," i'm talking to you! and maxim, and HPV or whatever that one's called. you know, the "we're masquerading as a general readership male mag, but we're really one step off playboy!" (or training bra porn mags for teens, as i call them) men's rags and their massive photoshopping.

on a related note, an editor of a national mag my husband shoots for, who doesn't include girls, asked me a while ago what i thought of having a girl on the cover for the xmas issue (we were discussing target audience and mags that still have women in them, particularly in adverts). i was straight up: "ed, we have a gorgeous 16yo daughter. we all read your mag. she needs to know she is valuable for more than her appearance." he agreed. and we talked about how when you only see "girls" as decorative, not as racers themselves, it's a blow to all women. (no so subtle hint: ed, profile more women racers!)

dd was there too, as drag racing is a family event. i love for her to see the women racers and the control they have over their environment (the high HP cars). plus, we all wear "Letty's H Racing" t shirts (i had his race car embroidered on them), since we're his "pit crew" (more like cheerleaders, lol).

and just wanted to add


that's right smack in the middle of a healthy weight for her age and height according to the usda bmi chart! i don't think anyone ever looks at those.