heh - was looking at some cases in our state (most recent one was from 2004) and you could probably argue our situation either way. The law speaks to the "totality of the circumstances."

The other bit I left out, BR, is that neither of us can afford an attorney now. It would pretty much have to be a "DIY" divorce, which I don't have a problem with, but for property and custody. I would like shared custody, 50-50. If he said he wanted the house, he could have it, I would only want my name off the loan and deed. I don't want to take anything else from him, after I took so much, you know? But I don't know what he wants or needs b/c he won't talk to me.



Maybe I have. At present, neither of us has anyplace else to go. For the most part, we stay out of each other's way. We have equal access to the girls and the house. I suppose in a way I am just "playing it safe," b/c *this* is better than the unknown.



NG, you do great word pictures! I don't know...do you think I am hanging on because I don't want to acknowledge what I did - destroying broken & our marriage? I think I have acknowledged it...I know it was my actions that caused him to call himself "broken" when he landed here on the boards 2 years ago. I know both of us are responsible for the conditions in the marriage - both before and after the adultery - but our marriage could be a completely different picture now BUT FOR my adultery, so regardless of how broken conducts himself now, my actions were the ultimate marriage-killer.

I just feel the need to get us both - especially broken - to a place where we'll at least be OK...not worried about living under a bridge or worried about foreclosure and bankruptcy, that the girls will be taken care of, etc. I can't fix what I did, NG. I can't get him off the machines on my own, but I can ensure that he is given the best-case scenario for survival.

I don't know what I would stand for if the situation was reversed. Honestly, I feel like a BS has much more grounds for asserting that their needs aren't being met by the WS. I was told often to do whatever it takes for as long as it takes - I think that should be the FWS mantra.

I agree she should be in Plan B, but she also needs to file for divorce. She CAN be in Plan B forever.....or as long as she chooses. There is no reason she can't be in Plan B forever. I have been in Plan B with my XH for years and I have no intention of changing that. It has improved my disposition greatly.

NG, what do you mean by 4 plans? What 4 plans? A, B, C and D?

WPG, you might have explained it earlier and I didn't see it, but is your plan to go into Plan B as Dr Harley suggested?

If he is unemployed, he won't be able to re-fi the house (assuming he even wants it) so removing your name off the loan isn't going to happen. If broken refuses to talk to you, at some point you are going to have to decide to pull the Plan B/D trigger or keep living in limbo hell forever. You can still file D and see if he engages.

After years of my late wife carousing and a few of many one nighters, I left her in 1987 Pre MB

After one mistake of trying TP have a relationship,( yeah sorta revenge?), and two years where that relationship ended, I came back to my broken and praying wife and got restored. I never looked back and that was the last inappropriate thing I have ever done with another woman, believe me I had chances too

I looked at it like it was a lesson, that I was fooled, and no matter what I, yes I, for one, was never going to inflict that pain again. Much like many FWS, no matter what the circumstances, come to repentance and get thier head screwed on straight

Even with the last issues with the drugs and alcohol use and more of her screwing up, I could not bring myself to love and care for anybody else enough to go there.

I totally get where you are at WPG

Making a bad mistake happens, and we can appreciate what we lost and change how we think and even who we are. It is a nice notion and hope we can allways be strong and true, and there is no excuse for adultry even if there were plenty of unaddressed problems

In the objective spirit of MB, when does this end for you? You've made a grave mistake, doesn't he believe in the right cicumstances he might too?

I'm a christian, and my beliefs hold me up, but what about forgiveness?

Time to move ahead WPG

I was told often to do whatever it takes for as long as it takes - I think that should be the FWS mantra.

And if "whatever it takes" included broken punching you in the face every morning? Being emotionally abused is no more acceptable.

If "think" is an icon for "firmly believe" or "have irrevocably decided", then I have no more counsel to offer, and my harping is probably causing more pain than MMOB.

NeverGuessed is absolutely right. "Whatever it takes for as long as it takes" is not something Dr. Harley says. It is something we say on the forum.

What Dr. Harley says is that when a WH comes home, if he is not repentant and remorseful and willing to do whatever it takes, don't take him back, because it will not work. He says the OPPOSITE for a WW. So "whatever it takes for as long as it takes" may be great advice for a formerly wayward husband, but it just sets up a formerly wayward wife for accepting abuse. You know those prenuptial agreements that everybody is so fond of around here? Dr. Harley tells formerly wayward wives to go get a lawyer and get those agreements overturned. He emphatically does NOT believe that a WW should what "whatever it takes for as long as it takes."

I have listened to multiple hundreds of hours of Dr. Harley on the radio now. I do my best to echo in this forum what I think he would say in each situation.

Dr. Harley says that Just Compensation is not supposed to hurt. What you are doing hurts.

Dr. Harley did not tell you to do whatever it takes for as long as it takes, and I wish nobody here in this forum had told you to do so. Dr. Harley gave you personal, specific advice, telling you to go into Plan B. That trumps anything anybody here has to say.

What can we do to help motivate and encourage you to take Dr. Harley's advice? It's important that you get started soon.

Effective Marriage Counseling, p. 44



I would like to see an answer to this.

Radio clip of Dr. Harley explaining that just compensation is not supposed to hurt:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2099

Please give this radio link a listen.

Markos is correct. The advice to do "whatever it takes" does not mean to do things that are harmful. It means to do what Dr Harley recommends. And in this case, he specifically told you to go into Plan B. "Do whatever it takes" means to do whatever it takes to DO the program. [or follow Dr Harley's specific advice]

It really never occurred to me that anyone would conclude "do whatever it takes" means to do destructive things. We use that phrase in AA alot but it means to "go to any length" to follow the 12 steps.

Markos and Mel have laid out the relevant principles with far greater eloquence and scholarship than my poor attempts, Wulffie, but I would add one thing, if I may:

You are being watched. Everything we do imprints on our progeny.

How true!!! I was super concerned how my duldrums affected my kids so I avoided as best as possible my moodiness when around them.

BUT, of bigger concern was how my wife responded to her mistakes. And how my kids, who know what she did, see their mother becoming a role model. Regaining dignity. Holding her head up high. And becoming somebody to be proud of. Yes, I made her life easy by allowing her to remain in my life.

But, if I didnt want to stay married I wouldnt want her to live walking on egg shells waiting for me to come around. This doesnt put her in the best light in front of our children. I would want them to see someone rising from the lowest lows to become a better person.

Its about dignity. By keeping you waiting for a miracle and him to come around, you are in the same dignity-less existence as you were on dday. I was desperate to make sure my wife regained her dignity so my kids (especially my girl who learned WAAAAY too much about her mother on dday) learn a valuable life lesson.

Youve done all you can for your husband. Time for you and the kids.

That about wraps it up IMHO WPG. Oh I know the regret and pain will be with you for some time, but that is also part of the healing process.
Thing is you have friends here that respect you for your clarity and honesty, and we will continue to. How about getting into plan B so you can heal?

My late wife once told me that is was the best thing I ever did for her when I left her. She eventually went before God after a year of rebellious anger and fantasy filled ideas that I had left her, and she had done nothing wrong. Once that specter of drinking was out of her life a little farther, her conscience kicked in, and it was the beginning of getting her own understanding about alcohol. Of course if I had Dr H as the captain of our recovery, as sure as I am here I know it would have been total....,or,we would have ended it there.

If he decides not to give MB a chance, or work towards understand and that scariest of words, forgiveness, and let you earn the trust, then you have to let him go

Then you will be stuck with God, and us..but it's not that bad I promise

You are all absolutely right. Something happened last night. Normally, I'm the one on the recieving end of his AO's, and they usually (95% if the time) aren't directed at me or something I have done, but something or someone else has made him mad and I am just the target in the way. I have been doing my best to stay calm and thought I'd been doing OK until last night. Last night the girls were the target.

Both DD's have their own laptop, which he bought for them a couple years ago (un-POJA'ed). DD#2 accidentally knocked hers from her desk to the floor and damaged the pop-out DVD drive. H heard the crash and went downstairs to investigate. I was also upstairs working on some jewelry and heard more crashing, voices raised, and got to the top of the stairs in time to see both DD's in tears running up the stairs, and H's voice saying something like "You better cry." They were sobbing and said Daddy broke their computers. DD#1 said that when he found DD#2's broken, he cursed ("said bad words," DD#1 said) and slammed it to the floor, and then came around and grabbed DD#1's laptop off her desk and threw it on the floor, cracking the screen.

I confronted him in the garage and said that what he had done was abuse, plain and simple. I was shaking I was so mad, and I know I didnt handle things well, because I went from, "Do you want them to be afraid of you like I am afraid of you?" to "I think it would be best if you found another place to live," to which he replied, "You are the one who needs to find another f-ing place to live." I followed him back to where now he was examining the broken computers and said I'd seen his anger since we were dating, and I'd overlooked it...that I'd continued to overlook it and accepted it, especially now, b/c I felt like I deserved it. But that the children had done NOTHING to deserve it.

Went back upstairs and DD#1 is acting like she's fine and dandy (even tells H that she's "glad" he broke her computer b/c she spent too much time on it, and now she can do other things) and DD#2 is hiding in the closet.

We eat supper and he does apologize to them, and comes into the kitchen and actually apologizes to me...I guess just for what he did to the girls, there was no mention of anything else. He went on to explain why he got so angry at them. I just said, "Thank you for apologizing to the girls" and left it. In no way has he made up for that with a surly "sorry" to me. Rest of the night was back to routine, with us basically avoiding each other.

I am holding on to a fantasy. The man he was during that 4 months long, long ago doesn't exist. Was never real. I have held on to the fantasy of what we could have together, and that's all it is...fantasy. It's not real. It never was. He will never be able to meet my needs the way I need them met, and it doesn't matter what I do to try and meet his needs. My adultery was the final nail in the coffin of a marriage that was already dying of neglect from both parts.

I just don't know how to proceed. He's jobless, I don't think he's going to move out, and I don't see how we can afford two households on my income alone. Only place I could get to right now would be my mother's, and she doesn't have room for all 3 of us, and I'm not leaving the girls.

As far as Plan B, I think I will be able to communicate with him about the children without the need for an IM. We primarily communicate now via text, which is impersonal enough. I think once we are living apart, not sleeping in the same bed, where I don't have to wake up every morning so close to him but yet so far away, where I am able to breathe the scent of his skin but can't touch him, I think I'll be better. I can have a businesslike relationship with him when I don't have to see him day in and day out. If it turns out that continues to be too painful, I can find an IM. It's kind of funny, we barely see each other now in the same house, I think if we're under different roofs it will be pretty easy for me not to see him.

I'm so sorry WPG. That is....deranged behaviour.

Please stop sleeping in the same bed.

Seriously, WPG, how long are you going to put up with this kind of abuse? And what he is doing is abuse. And now he's not only abusing you, but he's abusing his daughters as well.

Your H has a serious problem with AO's.

I don't care if he has somewhere else to live or not. That has nothing to do with anything. You need to start looking out for the best interest of your daughters. What you are allowing them to be exposed to could cause them lifelong psychological harm, and I'm not convinced they aren't in physical danger as well. Your H needs to leave. Until he gets help in the form of anger management, he is not safe for you or your girls to be around. When he is being abusive, he doesn't have to agree to move out of the house. There are legal ways to remove an abusive parent from the home.

I bet you would like a do- over, call a mulligan.

Sorry he is acting like this , but as allways, the kids come first, he is not the first man to have to come to grips with the fact he is not and can never be the beginning and end for everybody, he needs help in understanding himself, and the world around him also

Therapy, anger management, time alone and a dose of humility.

Get into plan B and let him get it, alone but hey, he still has God, and this will effect the girls

The one who covered up the effects by saying it was good he broke the pcs because....and the one who hid in the closet... Yeah you know it's causing damage, and guess what? The propensity for that was allways there from the beginning.

You are willing and able to work with your screw ups, many common to human beings BTW, He has not let go of the fantasy yet that you would love him and only him till the day you died. Your growing and he is still reacting. Yeah Re-acting, he needs to stop it and you do too.

It's been enough time, he needs to get out of his own head, and get some objectivity. We are only mere humans

Yes we are, friend. Please act on the advice.

We now know that your husband is a lunatic. Please realize that when a person has an angry outburst, they are insane. He needs to leave. You need to get away and protect your children and yourself.

You need to protect your daughters from this. DD1 was acting glad after such a horrific experience? She is following in your footsteps of accepting abuse and feeling like she deserves it! By staying with this man, you are setting your daughters up for failure.

And they will remember if you protected them or not.

Also, don't believe for an instant that you will be able to maintain a business like relationship with this man simply because you do not live under the same roof. Every contact will cut you to the quick, and will provide him with oppurtunities to abuse and torture you. You will not heal from his abuse, and it will affect how you are around your daughters.

If you don't go to plan B for yourself, then DO IT FOR YOUR DAUGHTERS! Get back to being emotionally healthy FOR THEIR SAKE.

WPG, there is no question as to what Dr. Harley would advise you to do at this point.