I am more and more sticking to the recovery threads too. Number one because sometimes I will post something in SAA and think, what do I know about this or that? Such as exposure, PB, etc. I never had to deal with an ongoing A, can not IMAGINE how anyone goes through that, did not do exposure, never had to PB...Also what is disheartening to me is the activity level. Every day there are new people, new BS's, new WS's who come on and are told to come clean and then disappear, many of them disappear after getting some advice. Clearly adultery is RAMPANT. It's overwhelming and disheartening.

In my sitch I went through a rebellion after years of lies, at which point I decided that 'what's good for the goose...' applied to me. Not that I had rock solid boundaries before that, but I did have some boundaries. I opened those up to the general populace, flirting, behaving in a rather NON married manner around men. Overnight I had married men from high and low paying attention to me, because I appeared 'open' to the idea of inappropriate behavior of some kind. People I never would have thought would started testing the waters, how far would I take this? I am embarrassed to tell you all this now, of course. I did not carry anything further than flirting with any of them, and I closed the door on my own. The reason is because it totally disgusted and disenheartened me. I thought, is NO ONE trustworthy? Are all people unhappy and ready and willing to cheat at the drop of a hat?

Thats how the SAA forum makes me feel, like life and marriage is covered with a dark cloud, that nobody can be trusted and nobody is faithful. Like its somewhat hopeless to expect fidelity.

Letty - thoughts and prayers for you and Mr. Letty!!!!
(((((((BIG hugs!!!!)))))))))))

I know how you feel. H and I went through a bit of a scare recently and he ended up at the heart doctor, and all was fine, thankfully. More times than not these things are not serious but can serve as a wake up call to take care of ourselves better. I'm sure you will keep us posted.

Interesting points.

I too never exposed as my wife quickly did that even before I started reading the books and website. What is important for me and the reason I offer whatever advice for the newly betrayed who come here is after dday one feels so alone and confused, that if I can say something that comforts him, it makes me feel good, too.

The closest I came to a revenge affair was last summer when OMW showed up at my house unannounced while my wife and kids were out. She made it clear that she'd be OK with it and was desperate to show that she is desirable despite her husband multiple affairs. We sat outside in front of the house for 20 minutes and I sent her home. We (the Betrayed) own the higher moral ground. A brief indulgence, no matter how silent it would remain, knocks you off that ground and you are as low as your spouse. Im sure its different for a woman making herself "available" to other men. But, I dont give off any "come hither vibes" nor would I suggest any women would be receptive.

Many of us guys during 'guy talk' will rate and fantasize about women we see at little league games or school or around town. I feel pretty secure in saying in 99 percent of the time, its just talk. I will say, however, after discovery of my wife's affair that that talk has become something I dislike and dont participate in.

When you get on her for a while you come across many posters who come looking for help, get it, and then you dont hear from them. Every so often you get the, 'geez whatever happened to so and so?' moment. I get disappointed by that. And i also think about how widespread adultery is. I think about the 1000s of other couples who 1) dont come to this site, 2) just pack their stuff and leave the cheater, and 3) conceivably those who just stay and do nothing to solve the problem.

What really gets me upset, to be real here, is when Im with other families and I wonder why is it me who gets to carry this burden for life. Why didnt that guy's wife cheat? My wife once said after I mentioned to her this, "she may not have cheated, but their son has ADHD, she has MS, and he just lost his job. It may not measure up to what I did to you, but somes things can change and be even better, others you cant."

I think a lot of BSs flirt with the idea of flirting - if that makes sense. It is natural when you take such a hit to the ego that you want to be able to still feel worthy and attractive. That's why it's important to have good boundaries, ESPECIALLY when you're vulnerable!

I'm trying hard to educate my children on what it takes to have a good marriage. I certainly don't think it is hopeless to find people who stay faithful, but I now know it isn't like I used to believe - that only "bad" people cheat or are cheated on. Everyone knows the going divorce rate but how many people try to fix it? Or even closer to home - how many people think it will be them??? People don't usually start looking into marriage stuff until it is hitting close to home and by then, it can be too late - or - they go to marriage counselors that really don't have the answers.

I guess we need marriage manuals before we tie the knot! lol

The thing is, the problem only has gotten worse over time. As more and more people cheat and/or divorce, the more that behavior is viewed by the younger generation. As we know, they do what they see us do, not what we tell them to do in many cases. It makes it more likely that they will do the same: unless they are educated otherwise. And...how many go to that trouble? Here on the forum we are all learning and growing but it's a small percentage of the general population.

You're right, Car - and we can all learn stuff from each other! That's the beauty of such a place as this: we come from different perspectives but we are all on the same MB train - and offer up unique things that still fall under the right principles. AND...we all have different personalities that can help someone - no matter where they are on their journey. We need people of all kinds: the ones who bring on the tough love, the encouragers, the ones that dole out practicals, etc... Hopefully we all try and offer what we can to those we feel can use what it is we have.

It's all about paying it forward, whether in Recover or SAA or anywhere else.

Not only that, but the hope is that we keep learning and growing too: even the oldest of vets.

Your wife is wise, Mike: we may have this burden to carry but others have their own. No one's life is perfect, even if it looks like it from the outside.

I'll admit - sometimes it feels like we are carrying a larger burden because of the mere devastation that infidelity causes. I look at it like this though: we have survived the worse - it makes us very strong people! We have been fire-tested and proven we're tough enough to not just get through - but to thrive. AND...now we have the best insight possible as to how to NOT do marriage as well as how to do it properly. What better gift can we give our children than to impart that knowledge? SO... because of our struggles, perhaps our children will avoid these pitfalls and we can teach them how marriage really works. In that, our burden carries great promise: something we can use to the betterment of our little legacies.

And... I'm right there with you on the "talk" stuff. All the cheer moms used to talk about other men. I was never much to engage in that type of conversation but I certainly laughed along. I don't even find it remotely funny now. In fact, I recently read an article about how married women would love to cheat with Tim Tebow. All I could think was, "With his principles do you really think he wants you thinking that way about him?! That's so disgusting!"

Well, I DID have an RA and I will tell you that is exactly right, you lose your 'victim status' as I like to call it although I am sure many people would disagree with that terminology. Because now I deal with a WH but I also deal with a BH and that is a difficult mix. I have to behave now as a BW but also as a WW who has my own amends to make. It gets complicated in a hurry.

Also, I went through a whole phase of feeling the 'why me.' Shortly after DDay actually, about month 2-4 or so. I remember shopping in a store and walking by a mirror and catching my reflection amongst a sea of people. Now I am not immodest and I will say I stand out in a crowd. I thought, WHY ME. How am I the woman who's H cheated on of all these people. Goes to show you that it isn't just about PA or even about sex but about a million other things.

Pre DDay there was more a need to flirt, rebel, feel attractive to someone. But after DDay it was more for me like I felt lost and confused and...single. I really just felt like my M was a big sham, like the core value at least I placed which was sexual fidelity was gone and then what was left? I felt like little to nothing so who cared at the point. Being a BS is a very, very vulnerable place to getting into your own RA in my opinion. If only all BS's knew to come here, unfortunately they don't.

There should be a manual. Dr H should write it. In fact I think he does have something for newlyweds doesn't he?

I agree it is an alarmingly small percentage, and the public at large supports adultery and is anti marriage. I will raise my kids with the MB principles, I already quote them to my 11 yr old! And just the other day I was telling my 20 yr old nephew about how dating is just like an interview... I think they all think I am very old fashioned:-o

And Letty, I am very sorry that there is some major T/J going on here!

I hope you are finding out good news about your H's health.

Yes, you're right: RA's can be a very easy trap for a BS to fall into. There's a thread that IndieGirl has on SAA about how BS's should avoid "vultures" for that very reason.

Most of the public supports adultery, I believe, because they see it as the person who got cheated on must have deserved it somehow. She was a nag or he was abusive... It's a way of being in denial that it could ever happen to you! But - as we all know - that's not the way it works.

And yes, Letty - sorry for the t/j!

I think society supports it because in general we are an entitled selfish bunch and the general sentiment is "you deserve to be happy!" Oh your wife/husband is not making you happy? Well you deserve to be happy.

My sister, years ago before I knew I was a BS (but strangely in retrospect about the exact same time I became one), cheated on her long time live in BF with a married man, who she left her BF for and he left his wife for her. I was very vocal about my feelings on that and it affected our relationship for years (to this day really). I remember having a conversation with her once and she said "don't I deserve to be happy?" And I said, "NO, no you don't deserve to be happy if the price of that happiness is destroying everyone around you." Little did I know!

Oh ya, they are still 'together' although he would never marry her, and she eventually moved to her own house after finding out he...wait for it...cheated on her...and now they are 'on again' 'off again' with no future and she's not happy. So, there's kharma, although hard to see when it's your family.

And his wife divorced him and married a lawyer and to my knowledge they have a great life.

Now Letty, I am also wondering what you are doing about this mouse problem. I have a Jack Russell Terrier, I think the mouse would have a hard time getting by him, even in his old age.

Cats these days are just too soft.

I've had a bit of a different experience but it is probably due to my religious upbringing. In the Christian community "you deserve to be happy" doesn't fly - not when it comes to infidelity. But...it sure doesn't stop "Christians" from having affairs, obviously. That's where I've found the excuse making going on. Because, you know, only something BAD (nagging, abuse, wife letting herself go, husband being lazy or a slob, etc...) must have MADE the cheater cheat.

And yeah - isn't it funny that people never think they will be cheated on, even when they were once the AP.

I truly believe most people think it won't ever happen to them: they're too good or they are wise enough to know how to not let it happen...

not t/jing at all! i've been quiet because of the time difference. i only got up an hour ago :O)

mouse problem: well, i've had the drawers out for a couple days now and don't see any more mice/signs of mice. i'm hopeful the cats have done their jobs. jack russells are fantastic mousers! they are a very popular dog here in farm country.

husband: well, we've done all the running around to different labs, so now it's wait wait wait. won't know anything until next week. thank you for your thoughts and prayers.

marriage and our young people. :: i don't even know where to start. maybe with a caveat: i'm no saint, and i've made *plenty* of my own mistakes. but it's important that we do these things when we're free and single, and use the lessons learned and apply them with a level head to our lives.

mike: i think it's very well possible that when you're looking around at a group of people thinking it's just you, it's NOT. statistically, some of those wives and/or husbands have probably had an a. you just don't know about it. when i was little i heard my mother say "you don't know what happens behind closed doors." that is so true. no matter how happy on the outside, lots can be going on behind the scenes. how many times do we see people come to SAA and start with "we look like we have the perfect happy M, but..." she also taught me to stay the he11 out of other people's marriages. when i was around 21, i was injured in a car crash. one of the guys from my work sent me flowers. his wife went ballistic. after speaking w/my mum, i told him i couldn't accept his flowers (but thank you for the thought), and that he should never do anything that would upset his wife if he loved her.

our young people! sunny is right: they learn by our actions, not our words. i had a discussion this term with my year 12 students (aged 16, turning 17) about M. some of them voiced the opinion that one should be able to divorce when one "gets bored." wow, did i toss the lesson out the window and have a big convo about that! but what will my words mean when they see adults around them not marry, switch partners, have children by various men?

i've also had multiple conversations with my year 13s (17, most 18 or almost) about fidelity in marriage (thanks othello!) at this age, boys are more grown up. they agreed that fidelity in a relationship was important. great conversation around emilia's comment that a wife can commit infidelity if it will enhance her husband in some way (move him up the job ladder, etc). also some good discussion on othello's tragic flaw, that he was able to believe iago's words. we were able to transfer that right into their lives - if your best friend tells you your girl is cheating, how can you ever get past it when there's nothing she can say (just like desdemona) that can prove her fidelity and loyalty once that suspicion has blossomed?

last night there was a UK show on (very) young people and promiscuity. it was called "underage and (something)." there was a 14yo girl on there who had already had multiple partners! and a discussion of "linking." they no longer have boyfriends, or even "hook up," just sex with buddies when it "feels right." no commitment of any kind. and there's lots of experimentation with bisexuality too.

these silly girls have no idea that they are just being used for sex, and that their "friends" aren't really their friends. they are also training up these young men to believe that it's ok to dip your wick whenever and wherever you want. terrible.

nz girls are pretty similar. lots of experimenting at a young age, lots of binge drinking, lots of sex partners. and sadly, they don't practice safe sex, as both our teen pregnancy and STD rates are horrifyingly high. i feel very, very lucky that i was able to navigate my own DD (who identifies herself as american, not kiwi) through the minefield of adolescence here. many times i cursed myself for raising her here. it's great when they're little, but the teen years...it's very common for parents to go away on holiday and leave their 15-16yo kids home alone for up to weeks at a time! why not just hand them a loaded gun? anyhow, my girl doesn't drink (well, she'll nurse 1 drink all night), and waited until she was of legal age for sex w/her long term boyfriend, and uses contraception. girls these days have such a range of options for contraception, i can't believe how few take advantage! we have a nurse at school once a week, and each week i remind my form class (homeroom) that the nurse is here today and she gives out free condoms! too many boys get their g/fs pregnant each year (about 10 at my school alone). thank goodness here you can talk with your students about such things. someone's got to!

M and infidelity: i work at a boys school in a male environment. 10% of our staff are female, but half of those are clerical. only a handful of us in departments. after my Hs a, i felt trapped in a cave with bloodthirsty rats. hmm, that doesn't really capture how i felt. it was two-fold. otoh, i felt that everyone looked down on me (she can't keep her H at home! [even though they didn't know of my sitch]) otoh, i also felt like every single one of them were liars and cheaters, not to be trusted with anything! it took me about a year to be ok at work again. and now i can actually chat with my coworkers to some extent. having said that, i never felt bad with my students. they are so young and so open and honest. they were easy to be with - not jaded yet, you know?

like every population (work), there is a % of people who are, well, loose with their behaviour. there are at least 2 men i know of that are now divorced after playing away from home (as they say here), and one woman who is also now divorcing, who has always spent time with those two. lots of drinking goes on, which only expands the poor behaviour. workplaces here are big on after-work drinks and get togethers. i attend nothing, except our xmas dinner, which includes spouses. not because of the a -i'm just not wired like that. after working all day, i want to go home to my family! not spend more time with other people! but they often hire a bus to take them out drinking, and kiwis drink like alcoholics (binge). no one thinks it's odd to drink to the point of vomiting. gross! i tell my boys that where i'm from, a man isn't admired if he can't hold his liquor. and that a woman expects her escort to keep her safe at all times. a date can't do that if he's blotto. they think i'm pretty prudish. i don't mind a drink, but generally only drink at new year's or the xmas dinner out. my H doesn't drink either, for no particular reason. i am so glad i married someone who doesn't think it's normal to "got out with the boys" on a friday night!

wow, this post is getting pretty long! i'd better shut up now! i'd still like to hear your thoughts on this though.

Letty,

So since I have become invested in my crazy post A married life, MB concepts, etc. I have become ultrasensitive to the societal views of marriage, fidelity, etc. It is not uncommon for me to peruse through a thick Sunday paper and find the one article that is anti marriage and/or pro adultery and go on about it for a good long time.

I feel committed to speaking out to people about how to have a good marriage and protect from A's, based on the MB concepts I have learned.

I have even thought, if I get through this and actually learn how to have a good marriage and live to that, maybe I should start doing premarital counseling for the church or something to 'pay it forward.' I think many people on here think 'if only I had known when I walked down the aisle what I know now...' Seems the best place to pass along that knowledge is from the beginning.

Wouldn't it be GREAT if we had classes in high school about healthy relationships and marriages, based on the MB concepts? I know all those kids would roll their eyes and say we were prudes, but at the end of the day I think most kids STILL think they will fall in lurve and get married and have a happy marriage. So, they might pay a 'little' attention to what that meant.

My 11 yr old daughter took a babysitting class this summer. She came home and told me all the things she learned, and asked me when you have a baby where you learn all that. I said, you don't. Well how do you know not to put a baby on its stomach. I guess some people don't. Well isn't there a class or something? Nope. You can just have a baby and bring it home and you don't need to know ANYTHING about it.

My point here is that all over the world people get married, have families, etc. and yet it seems of very little importance to teach the RIGHT ways to do this to our kids. We still teach them how to square dance tho! Cuz that might come in handy some day...

yes, it would be great to have a class! when i was in hs, i took "marriage and family." unfortunately, it, like our whole culture, kinda ended at the wedding (i still have my wedding plan book!). we did walk around with eggs for a week, and washed and diapered baby dolls, but there wasn't anything about the glue that makes a *marriage,* or how to handle conflict, or how to integrate lives. and those are the important bits! i mean, we ask schools to take on so much of what should be home learning (religion, ethics, manners, behaviour, etc), but this is much more practical and important, and is something all young people really *need* to learn. sure, they may roll their eyes and stuff, but when they get older, some of those things will be remembered when they need it. and that will get them investigating again and finding out how to handle a sitch before it gets to crisis point (i would hope).

the most important thing about marriage is learning to be integrated. we are all so set in our IB that it is hard to give it up. and culturally, IB is encouraged. but it is crucial if we are to have happy, successful marriages that thrive long term.

you know how on talk shows they sometimes have these men that think a woman should be a slave to her H? she puts out his clothes, cuts his toenails, brushes his teeth, etc, and does everything around the house? and then also has a JOB? (caveat: i'm a feminist, and not afraid to label myself such. but a husband has a role in the family, and he needs to BE it!) what really irritates me about that is that if the man was so much of a man, he would be *leading* the family, not sitting back being catered to like an infant while doing nothing to be a man! learning how to be a husband is just as important as how to be a wife! classes should be mandatory for *boys* and girls.

Oh, I totally understand this unwritten.

As I continue my personal recovery, I am overwhelmed by the numbers that continue to show up on SAA.

However, IMO... this is what makes it so important that those in recovery post over in SAA if they are able to.

So those that appear who have the chance to recover their marriage (and choose to do so), know that others can, and do, recover their marriages.

I agree. We all have our own ways of supporting, but as long as it follows MB practices, well done. Those posting as well as those reading are learning. But an extra special thanks to those posting. I know when I staggered upon MB, I was desperate. Without the posters, this forum would not exist. Yes, the Harley's are the guides... but many of us sadly never get the opportunity to access their guidance. For whatever reason, the WS, finances, whatever, this forum allows us the opportunity to access expert advice on how to recover marriages or ourselves. I will always be grateful. Wow Letty, we (myself included) really are TJing. Oops!

I don't know where I would be today without the guidance of others on such an important struggle. I doubt my marriage would have survived.

As for TJing, Letty DID say she wanted to hear our thoughts! LOL



When you describe the attitudes of the younger generation, Letty, it isn't hard to see why so many marriages fail to be good or lasting unions. I don't know that the older generations had it all together, but they did understand hard work and seeing things through. They had more patience too, because they didn't have such immediate gratification that we do nowadays. Marriage and childrearing has evolved - and not for the better in many ways. Although, I wouldn't want to go back to "women should be barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen" either!

I don't know what the answer is except education; the problem is, most don't seek knowledge until they're already in deep waters. Then, you have to throw them a life preserver and THEN teach them to swim.

A lot of churches now have marriage enrichment programs - but is it enough? Or, is it even the right information? And even if it is, how many actually attend that kind of thing?

Unwritten - with budget cuts all over the place, it's unlikely that schools will ever see any kind of program where kids are taught what it takes to make marriage worse. Society pays no attention to the growing divorce rate. That doesn't help. It's like anything else: nothing is done about it until the issue is somehow forced. Well - except, like you said, for square dancing: that's a must, apparently! LOL

It's funny you should mention your thoughts about premarriage counseling/church. I've thought along the same lines - in a way. I have considered approaching my pastor to let him know if he has anyone struggling with these issues, I would be happy to be a person he could give their # to - as someone who's been there, done that. Although, if the person was male I would want H to talk with them, not me!

nz is an agnostic country. i find this refreshing in a way - it was lovely to not have to listen to hysterical voices yelling about abortion or gay marriage on the news every day! and they're generally not a topic of conversation among regular people either. and no one gives a rat's behind what religion the prime minister is, or whether he goes to church.

having said that, more than 95% (straw poll) of my kids (students) don't even know basic bible stories, as they have never been to sunday school. regardless of faith, the bible grounds all of our literature. it's almost impossible to discuss intertextuality when they don't know the basics! and i'm talking moses and the bullrushes, burning bush, ten commandments; jonah and the whale; the good Samaritan; the stories that most people tend to know about because they perforate our culture in various ways.

i have 2 kids in my year 13 class who know bible stories, and one of them is quite religious. but that's an extreme rarity in comparison to my other 4 classes. thank goodness they were able to ground the rest of the class when studying othello and a clockwork orange. on a high note, they were all horrified by alex's actions in ACO. we are not steeped in violence here, which provides contrast. well, at least stranger-violence. we have a terrible domestic violence problem. one of our biggest court cases ended last week when a man was found not guilty of killing his BIL (his wife's brother - the two wives were best friends).

on a side note, this is the second time i have taught the accelerate year 9 class. both times, the parents of these students have all been married (to each other). an interesting correlation. the lower down the stream you go, the more broken the home.

i'm not up for barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen either. and if we went back far enough, i'd probably be burned at the stake as a heretic, which enthuses me not at all. but even i had my child go to sunday school, and even a year of all-girls catholic school (i know, my usa friends were aghast! plus, it's quite different from usa catholic school. i taught there for a year myself before making the decision). if nothing else, learning the bible as literature is imperative for many reasons.

back to reading at saa. i tripped over it myself yesterday. i don't know if it was AIs WH and broken EPs, or one of the many other threads, including 4 new ones since i'd last logged in just over 24 hours, but i triggered big time, and am still feeling out of sorts this morning. my brain keeps reminding me that all is well, my safety and security in our relationship is supported by means (ok, snooping). i think i just had a FR flashback. it sucks.

i think it's very important to keep posting, because we have such a huge number of readers that aren't members. they are grasping at whatever they can in the midst of their own marital he11. it's important, i think, for them to get an idea of the ongoing hard work, the ups and downs, and both the successes and failures (failures of M so often = success in PR when using MB).