oh tnt, it's hard at first. my H isn't a talker either. at first, we focused on one thing: how was your day? i would ask him, and as he responded, i listened. later i started asked extending questions "really? what did he say to that?" mostly i didn't get much. but i knew that his interest was peaked at my listening with 100% attention - no book, no tv, no computer was drawing my attention away from him. i make a point to close/turn off anything i'm doing when we talk. and i remember what he's said previously, so i can bring it up again, "on monday so-and-so was considering ... what did he end up doing?"

then he asked me how my day went. i tried not to feel as if i were being interrogated. this is how he often interacted with me: how much did it cost? where did she go? what did you do alllll day (emphasis mine - that's how i felt). i kept my answers short and to the point, not going off on a tangent. i hid my frustration at the suspect-in-the-spotlight feeling i got from all the where/when/why/what/how barrage of Qs.

it also helped that i didn't talk about our relationship. instead, i offered replies to his "how was your day" question with stuff i knew was light, "you'll never guess what kind of car so-and-so bought!"

he used to reply with monosyllables: yeah, no, uh-huh, ok. this really hurt me, and i had to learn to disguise my hurt so that it wouldn't be a bad experience for him. once i did this, we got better as time went on. (yes, at first i went away and cried in frustration, but not so he knew!)

we are using our MC to help us work on conversation, which is terrific. at first he was reluctant, as if he was in the electric chair and was going to get shocked for the "wrong" answer. but as we (MC and i) worked on making the convo pleasant for him (no LBs!), he now is using strategies to extend conversation himself. this was a new learned skill for him - how to respond in a way that encouraged more conversation.

of course, this is an opportunity for me to provide admiration to him. "i really enjoyed hearing about ..." "i'm so pleased we were able to decide .." "i love that you remembered to ask about ..." "wow, you made me feel so much better about ...!" i have also found that the MB opener, "how would you feel about ..." is FAR superior to the old, "i feel (...) when you (,,,)." (an LB!)

yes, it is a fine line at first. the trick is to not expect anything from him emotionally *at first.* don't go into it thinking "i want some IC/i need some IC." just a response will do. say thanks, give him a kiss, and go do something. remember that you aren't trying to get a need met at the moment, you are trying to make IC pleasant for him. once he learns, emotionally, that IC isn't a minefield (where any male blunder will make YOU unhappy, which makes him feel crappy), it WILL improve.

if you told me 6 months ago my blokey-bloke mono-answer H would be having conversations with me, i would have made a wager he wouldn't!

remember, MB is behaviour modification. you can't change the behaviour without a reward. if you keep doing the same old (unrewarding) thing, you're not going to get the change you desire.

Fantastic post Letty

Also TinT when's your next appointment with Steve?

Thanks for the encouragement, Letty. I really need it tonight. I hope it will get better. I really feel that since we married this has been a big problem for us. I'm still hurt from everything he did (EA) and him sharing IC with another woman when he just doesn't do it with me at a deep enough level. We can talk fine about the kids and his work and our family schedule, but it just doesn't feel right. His top need is Admiration and I've read and read about how to do it right and I work hard at it every day. Also, SF, I make sure I am doing what he likes, initiating it more, etc, as he has said when I asked how to make it better. But he doesn't do this for me. Because it is my top EN and he is the only one who can meet it, I feel like I'm left high and dry and unfulfilled and disconnected from him when he doesn't show interest in it. I just wish I could understand why.

I'm pretty worried that he is hiding something from me again.

Thanks again, Letty!

Didn't he do a poly?

No he didn't do a poly. He said he would do one, anything to recover and agreed to my EPs. His reaction to me suggesting the poly didn't indicate he had any fear of taking one. I have a good sense of him and I could tell he was fine taking one, so I let it go. I never told him I wanted him to take one. I said that it was recommended he take one by MB and he said he would gladly take one.

He has been following my EPs. He has just seemed off the last two days, so I'm starting to panic, but I've looked at his phone records, his phone, and his email and found nothing. I'm thinking that what is going on is the finances. We just found out we will owe more than a new car for our daughter's surgery. The insurance didn't cover much of it. If he is worried about it, I wish we could talk about it. I have asked him if there is anything bothering him and he is insisting he's just tired.

Our next appointments are Monday and Friday and then he leaves Saturday for 8 days on the scout trip.

aw, thanks ladies :*) my face is the same color as my toes! i'm glad i could help.

TNT, maybe you could start with something like: "wow, i can't believe how the insurance company has left us high and dry (shows you together against them). i'm worried about how this will affect our family finances, and i bet you are too (invites him to open up). how do you think we should budget to be able to afford the extra costs? (asking for his opinion/input)"

or if you handle the family finances, you could amend the second bit to: "how would you like me to amend the budget to handle these costs? what can i do to make this easier on us?" or offer a suggestion on how the bill can get paid (can you ebay anything?) appeal to his sense of "i'm the father of this household,"

avoid ANY and ALL LBs. don't react negatively to any of his suggestions "say what?" "are you kidding?" "you know we can't part with that; it's a family heirloom!" instead, reciprocate. "it would be so sad if we had to let grandma's (whatever) go. maybe we could sell the ... instead?"

break out your actual budget/paperwork and put your heads together over it. if he's like my H, he will balk at first. he hates budgeting. but putting HIS opinion in the front of any statement/question will help him open up to you (hopefully!) my H also hates being worried over finances. it keeps him up nights, and he previously wouldn't discuss it with me at all. ("i didn't want you to worry about it too." "hey, lover, we're in this together! (took hand, kissed him) it's not just your worry/problem. we're a team! now let's see...")

it's helpful to look at worst-case scenarios and then back out from them with steps to see how else the situation can be handled.

on the bright side, TNT, if it is finances that are worrying him, that's a better-than-you-thought thing, right?

Having another bad day. I caught my husband in a lie and I'm really upset about it. Basically he has some things from home that he borrowed for a work event last month that he never brought home because he kept forgetting. Well we are having a bday party here for DS4 tomorrow and I needed the things brought home and was nearby his office, so I decided to pop in unannounced and pick them up. I texted him from the parking lot and asked him if he brought the stuff home (in case he did and I hadn't noticed). It was also a way to know if he was in a meeting with a client if he didn't answer. I went up the stairs and he texted a reply as I was walking up saying the stuff was already in his car. I thought, "Oh well, I'll go in and say hello anyway." Well as I come to his door, he opens it and he's carrying the stuff out. He lied about putting it into his car. It was still in his office when he sent the text.

Now obviously I would never had known any different if I hadn't been there. He led me to believe that he hadn't forgotten afterall, that I was nagging him to bring it, when he actually had not only forgotten, but lied about it too. If I hadn't been there to witness it, I would have thought he had already done it and I shouldn't have bothered him about it. But no, he lied.

He has lied about so many things throughout our relationship and this little lie makes me not believe anything he says. He lied to make himself look good and he lied to make me look like a nag. I just don't know if I want to live with a liar when my 2nd EN is Openness and Honesty. The honest reply to my text would have been, "Oh I forgot. I have a break, I'm going to to put them in now." To which I would have replied, "Oh well I was in the neighborhood and stopped by to pick them up so you wouldn't have to worry about it." It would have been a win-win and a way to make up for him completely neglecting me last night and choosing to read his phone and sleep on the couch instead of talk to me.

If he lies about little things like this to make himself look good, what else does he lie about. And even when I called him out, he denied it. He cannot be trusted. I'm heartbroken, again.

I am thinking I am going to schedule that Polygraph afterall.

My old, uncaring, rude, selfish husband is back. The one who lies and cares only about his own agenda. The one whose words and actions don't match. The one I wish would leave me alone because he hurts me. Being alone is much better than the pain. And he has to act this way before a big party here tomorrow. Just wonderful.

"I'm not a bad person," was the last thing he said.

Have you seen this?
How To Negotiate When You Are an Emotional Person

There is reception at base camp, and if he preserves his battery he may get some at the upper elevations, but the reality is you won't hear from him for a very long time. And chances are good that if he does call you while on the trail it will be very brief and it will be about what's going on with him.

Additionally, because he's the Scoutmaster, the days leading up to the trip will be all Philmont all the time -- packing, managing the paperwork/forms, answering questions from the Scouts, etc.

When he comes back, he will want to share with you this fabulous amazing experience he had. The two weeks of regular life you lived will be water under the bridge and not mean much compared to how he spent his time. This will be more annoying because after 10-14 days of having him gone you will be in your own routine, have your own flow, be used to handling things, so no matter how much you miss him, having him come back in to that will be an annoyance. Add to that the disconnection and it'll be a very frustrating time for you.

Have I been? No. Have I lived through what I'm describing to you? Multiple times. Not every guy who goes to Philmont will behave this way but yours will. I have identified with so many of the things you have said in relation to your husband and his focus on himself that I feel completely confident that what I describe will be accurate in your situation. It won't be deliberate on his part ... I'm sure he'll have the best of intentions to not let it happen ... but that's how it will play out.

Brainhurts,

I have read this several times and conclude that we are both emotional people. That makes it very hard to address complaints in our marriage. When I discuss something that needs improvement I am punished with a withdrawal of him meeting my intimate emotional needs. It hurts and I don't know how much more I can take.

Wow. That sounds pretty much how I expect things to be when they leave on their adventure trip this Saturday. Only worse. I was wondering if it possible to have a photographer go with the group and I could fill that role. Not sure how that would work since there are limited slots for adults and kids. We aren't even sure at this point if they will still be involved. At the very least I wish DS13 would get Life Scout.

I will have H read your post and we can discuss it. I really appreciate you giving me a good idea of how it is going to go. What an eye opener!!

TnT, on the upside, this will give you plenty of opportunity to have pain-free conversation (on his side)! remember, no LBing, no expectations. let him enjoy the conversation, and you can ask plenty of extension Qs to show your interest!

agree with DB - a homecoming is often not pleasurable for those at home. not because of anything bad, but the homecomer feels like an outsider to those at home, and resentment can set in. you also don't want your H to feel like he is infringing on your family. you have what, 2 weeks?, to consider how you will integrate your H back into your homelife. make it smooth, not rocky. NO OAs! and good luck with the time away. don't overthink things :O)

H will be gone for 8 days. The trip was not done via POJA so major resentment there already. IC is my top EN, not his. He has always been able to talk freely about his interests and I can easily get him to talk. The problem is that he doesn't reciprocate and conversations tend to go to his interests. Him talking. Not me. I need to be heard. Him being gone and out of touch when we are still in a fragile state is not what is in the best interest of us. So I am not happy with him going off and spending 7 nights and 8 days away and out of touch when our recovery has only just started in May. He knows this and has expressed that he wishes he weren't going. But it is too late now. He is a driver of 6 boys plus another asst scoutmaster. No turning back now. I guess I'll see what life without him here is like. Not sure that will be a good thing.

ahhhh. sorry, i must have forgotten the part where HE talks. well. hmmm.

i suppose, then, you will be getting a taste of plan b, what it would be like should you ever have to do it. 8 days is a good long while. of course, it won't be plan b for him - he won't be living w/consequences, but out having a grand time. you're the one stuck at home. that sucks. i guess all i can say is make very minute you're alone in the home count.

Yeah I was thinking that too. Except I'll be home with DS4 and having to get DD15 to and from camp. H will be suffering some too and will miss me too, I'm sure. It also stinks that he used vacation time for that instead of a week long trip with me, which we really need. We counted up only 8 hours of UA time last week. I cannot believe we can't hit 15. It is so hard with a little one in the house and as it is DD15 watches him a lot. Having a hard time in so many areas!

ah, TnT, that's a bear. give me a few minutes and let me reread your thread. i feel like an old person - always confused!

TinT. Was this your final EP list and did you give it to H? Has he already gone on a scouting trip this quarter?

ok, tnt, i've reread your whole thread. i think i bowed out in the middle because our sitches were so similar.

it sounds like the coaching with steve is going well. it's great that you guys can afford it. did you speak with SH about the scout trip? i don't recall a post with advice on how to handle it?

your H has certainly got his fingers in a lot of pies. mine does too - he's an excellent provider for our family. however, it takes some time to rejig their brains into realizing that their Ms are just as/MORE important than *work.* that M is more valuable to the family than the job. this is hard for a man to get his head around, which is why it's great you have phone time with SH. but once you can get him to that space, it should get better. do you have a "safeword" you can use? when my H is being IB, we have a phrase we decided upon together for me to use to signal him that he needs to refocus.

you asked a lot of we ever get past that fear it'll all slide back to the way it was. i haven't been in recovery long enough to answer that Q, and it is a fear i have as well. i try to manage the fear by taking positive actions in dealing with it - upping UA time, more EN meeting, etc. also, practicing POJA is a great technique as well. if you practice on little silly things you can both laugh about (creamed corn or whole kernel? which restaurant to have dinner?), it'll be easier to apply when you get to a big thing.

it helps that my H is a homebody and isn't involved in stuff outside the home like yours is (all his pies are work related). your H needs to realise that doing lots of stuff means nothing gets the best part of you; you're spread too thin. he will need to reprioritise so that the M comes first. this will mean he will have to give up some of his current outside-the-home responsibilities. i'm sure SH will help you get there.

you asked about email support from SH. i, too, had the same experience when i went to plan b. i sent a reply email detailing the sitch, since it was sudden, but changed the subject line, and never got a response. i'm thinking the change in the subject line may have sent it to junk, even though by that time we had several emails back & forth in that thread. i imagine the amount of mail they get daily is astronomical.

i'm so glad you exposed. exposing to my Hs friends was key to changing his mindset. when HIS friends started telling him that his behaviour was unacceptable in a M, it clicked.

anyhoo, i hope that you guys get through the scout camp ok. perhaps you should have a SH appt set for when he gets back? like the next day? and you should tell steve you guys need to focus on H meeting YOUR needs. i went through this with my H too. he was getting all his needs met and was very happy. i had to point out to him that his needs and my needs were very separate things. a visualisation of the love bank emptying was helpful to him, as well as reviewing the EN worksheets with how i *specifically* want ENs met, and he is now much better at need meeting (if only i could get the sf more than 1s/week!).

sending good wishes your way.

He hasn't gone camping since April. This will be his camp out for the third quarter. He is saying tonight he is getting out of asst scoutmaster position. He says it is all or nothing so he must just pull out. The other dads are hard core and I don't think they do anything but scouting. He can't commit to that level at this time. Mostly because we still cannot get 15 hrs a week of UA. We schedule every week and fall short. Frustrating.