I will admit that I am posting here, somewhat reluctantly, at the request of my wife, Annointed. We've struggled for years. About 11 years ago I had a one night stand while my wife was out of town. It completely took me by surprise when the girl hit on me; it took the bait hook, line, and sinker. Thinking I had tempted fate and survived I didn't put up much of a fight when the opportunity revealed itself once again, but this time it lasted about eight months. And in the midst of all that I was messing around with two other girls. People talk about bad days that they wish they could redo; that was over a year that I wish I could blot out of my short life story.
I have learned in life that we are all capable of even the worst. God has given us all free choice, and in our humanity we all fight against even ourselves; our will to do what we know is right versus our desire to do what we want. I have made many poor, stupid, inconsiderate, selfish, hateful, damaging choices; all my decisions, all chosen freely. Then there are the consequences...
There are two sides to every story; I don't think I've been portrayed here very fairly. That is not why I'm posting, but if Annointed thinks it will give a few people a better picture of our relationship in order to offer advice, I'll post my side. We have fought about everything: money, attitudes, tones, language, sex, kids, in-laws, and, of course, infidelity. In those things we have beaten each other up and pulled each other down, leaving one another deprived physically and psychologically.
I'm here really for one reason- to me her needs. When her needs are met I also understand that my needs will very likely be met. Who takes the first step? We both have, many, many times, but I�m really not here to keep score or point fingers. You may point fingers. Point away! I�m sure I could use a marital focus adjustment. Have questions for me? Please ask. We are here in search of help.

Welcome ship,

So what are you doing to eliminate your love busters? To clean up your side of the street?

Do you want to have a romantic marriage? We can help you with this?

Hi, Ship. Good to see you back.

I have the impression that you guys have focused on these affairs until it's injured both of you horribly. One thing that Dr. Harley recommends after an affair is that after all of the relevant information about the affair has been extracted and shared, never bring up the affair again. (In fact, just in general he advises not dwelling on the mistakes of the past in conversations with your spouse. It's never pleasant to have those things put in our face against our will.)

Dr. Harley has helped thousands of couples recover after infidelity, but his recovery program is basically the same as his program for building a good marriage: meet each other's emotional needs, protect each other from your selfish side, and build a compatible lifestyle that is pleasing to both of you. The result is romantic love, that elusive and wonderful feeling, sustained throughout life with your one and only.

Dr. Harley talks about "just compensation" after an affair. By that, he doesn't mean punishing the unfaithful spouse and dragging them through their mistake for the rest of their life. Instead, he means 1) taking steps to ensure an affair never happens again and 2) building a thrilling romantic love relationship that will be pleasing for both husband and wife (regardless of who was unfaithful). He specifically says that this just compensation process shouldn't "hurt," although of course it might require constraining our actions a bit, just as all married people have to constrain their actions in order to build a compatible lifestyle with their spouse. And as I said, this plan of recovery is essentially the same marriage building plan he suggests for everybody, whether there was an affair or not.

Radio clip of Dr. Harley explaining that just compensation is not supposed to hurt:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2099

Please give this radio link a listen.

I asked in the other thread, have you gotten to read through the Marriage Builders basic concepts, yet? There are some fairly simple lists there of behaviors that must be present in order for a marriage to be good, and behaviors that must be avoided in order for a marriage to be good. Some of these behaviors may need a little work to be added or eliminated, but Dr. Harley's been training people to do these things for forty years, quite successfully, and these are new habits that everybody can learn.

One of the things you will see in that list is angry outbursts. I understand this has been a problem for you, and I would be happy to talk with you about how angry outbursts can be eliminated. This has been one of my big problems, too. I have to say I am honestly happier than ever just from learning that it is possible to never have an angry outburst again and working toward this goal. It's been one of the biggest revelations of my life. And the thing about an angry outburst is, that when you are angry, you truly are insane. Who wants to go through life with periodic voluntary bouts of insanity? We make much better decisions in life when we learn how to avoid this entirely, and we are also much better people to be around: much better husbands, wives, parents, workers, employers, neighbors. And if we want our spouse to be in love with us, eliminating angry outbursts is absolutely mandatory.

It's all about new skills, new habits, and a program of education and training to learn these concepts and build these new habits. It's achievable, and we want to help you do it.

Hope to see you tomorrow and talk more. Read the Basic Concepts! [There's videos, too, if you'd like to read those.]

�A man, like a ship at sea, must be always moving toward a destination, not simply drifting� ~Louis L�Amour

Welcome aboard, sir.

Let's knock that reluctance out, eh?

I'm guessing that your reluctance is in thinking that the whole point of your wife's being here, the whole point of her asking you to come here and post... was to somehow fix you? Or, by your defensiveness, to somehow blame you for your marital problems?


Let me tell you, sir, that that is not what this program is all about!

In fact, if YOU work this program, YOU are guaranteed to be happier and more satisfied in YOUR marriage!


So right out of the gate, you say "I just want to meet her needs."


That's great! Fantastic! Electric! Eclectic!



But....



...




..




.




That is a path to disaster, sir. In fact, it sounds like the path that you have been marching... (this is, of course, aside from your AO problem).



http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8122_wife.html

Again, welcome aboard

These Angry Outbursts need to be the first thing you address if you want to meet Anointed's emotional needs. Without eliminating them first, it will be impossible to fill her lovebank -- imagine trying to fill a bucket all the while you're punching holes in it. Dr. Harley told my husband, Markos, that as long as he continued to have angry outbursts, our marriage would never get better.

Are you willing to eliminate them completely?

BTW, you have taken a great step toward a great marriage by coming here, creating an account, and showing a willingness to talk and learn.

I got the answer for this one ...

The one who feels the most mature, willing to meet needs without expectations and performing a stellar PLAN A in order to convince the other that they are making and taking steps to become a better spouse.

MNG

Thanks.
I'll admit that I have to learn more about the program before I can give a answer in the MB lingo, but I'm first learning her needs and how to meet them. I do want a great and romantic marriage.

Here you go this will help.
Love Busters
A Summary of Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts

Hi, Markos.
I agree. It doesnt' come up often, but when it does it's glares like the sun.

I feel like I have paid a hefty price and I'm not even arguing that I don't deserve it, but it hasn't been good for our marriage. She revealed today that she would often punish me, even recently, by staying out late with friends without letting me know when should would be home and secretly be pleased when I felt I had reason to question her committment. She confessed, I forgave, and we are now going to grow from here.

She introduced me to the site many years ago; I've been exposed to the concepts. Several months ago we were reading together but only got halfway through HNHN and I think I'm about halfway through LB.

I do occasionally get angry and I agree that everyone would be happier if the anger was released in a more controlled and loving way. I don't get angry often; I'm pretty stable. I DO NOT harm or threaten my wife. She refers to AO's as my calling a driver a moron after he cuts me off. I'm not sure I'd apply that as an AO, but I think MB states that the other person, even when it is not directed as them, gets to decide what an AO is/is not. I consider myself a pretty tolerant person, even when I disagree with someone, but when she is yelling I've never found that to be a reason to leave my wife. I think she was given that advice here. If I applied her same rules/ideas for me to her, her AO's just with the kids outnumber my own. I not sure I fully understand your definition of an AO, but I strongly disagree with calling anything less than an out-of-control fit "insanity." You'll have to explain more and sell me on that principle.
I am here, though, to learn new skills and habits.

Nice L'Amour reference, HoldHerHand.


Yeah, that's part of it. And I'm also not a blogger, I don't do social media, I'm kind of a private guy, and reading and posting makes for a long day after 11 hrs of work + a part time job and all the normal household stuff and only 6 hrs of sleep a night. I'll get on when I can, but I believe she is putting more of an emphasis on posting on this website than our actual marriage. If I don't post then it's perceived that I'm not working on our relationship as has been voiced on here, and then she gets upset. MB is not the only thing we do to work on our marriage- dates, walking together, reading together, marriage classes and seminars, etc.
I like your quote/link. I didn't mean that I'd sacrifice my own needs to meet hers- I would like to live during this lifetime, too. What I meant was that I've agreed to post because it's important to her (although that wasn't really POJA'd, it was more of an ultimatum). Neither of us are ones to be run over, but I'd say that even though I like a say in what happens in our lives and house, she usually gets her way. After our many conversations regarding POJA, I'm not convinced that it always works, but I like the idea and I like the concept of a Love Bank.

Prisca,
I'm not sure I agree with your definition of an AO. Does a person not have a right to an opinion or a right to express it? I'm not a robot and I wouldn't want to be married to one- I expect a person to show emotion when they are upset. With emotion usually comes some amount of passion. Maybe I'm splitting hairs with the definition, but I have a diffent belief than what I've been exposed to on MB thus far.
In a few sentences, what is the MB definition of an AO and what is yours if it varies?

MrNiceGuy,
I'm not sure I want to step and and claim that one. Them's sound like fightin words.

Can you summarize Plan A for me?

Here you go ship.

Dr. Harley's definition on AOs.
Angry Outbursts

SAS,

The PoJA is not an easy thing to get going... but once you have it down it becomes second nature.

The very first thing to do is to learn to build and/or restore Romantic Love in your marriage by learning to fill and protect each others' Love Banks, and to learn to complain and/or negotiate respectfully to aid your spouse in protecting their balance with you.


To do this, you are going to focus on eliminating your Love Busting behaviors, and learn what your wife's top 3 emotional needs are and begin meeting those expertly (with her guidance, and use of PoJA). You will also want to focus on getting 20+ hours a week of Undivided Attention meeting the intimate emotional needs of; Intimate Conversation, Affection, Recreational Companionship, and Sexual Fulfillment.

It is in the best interest of your marriage that until you two develop strong marriage habits, that you eliminate anything that threatens your UA time, and make sure that your spouse is your only recreational companion until she is your favorite recreational companion.

There is also some gaping safety holes in the your travel for work. This should either be eliminated completely, or only done when your wife can travel with you, as nights apart are invitations for infidelity, and are also a drain on your Love Bank balances.


Trust me, once things get running, and your wife reaches the threshold for Romantic Love with her Love Bank balance with you, you will find yourself preferring these things.

LOL .. i get what you mean about them sounding like fighting words .. didnt mean it that way. :P

However. A short summary of plan A? You got it.

1 Begin learning what your emotional needs are and what your wifes are. (taking the questionairs which i think you did)

2. learn what your wifes and yours love busters are (things that make her/you upset)

3. STOP/ ELIMINATE the items of mention in what upsets your wife

4. Meet the top emotional needs for your wife Consistantly without expectations (she may respond and meet yours sooner than later if you do).

5. Spend a minimum of 15hrs a week together without friends and kids or family to give opportunity to meet each others needs. The "fall in love" needs (intimate conversation, sexual fulfillment, recreational companionship and affection) can't properly be met when you got others hanging around.

MNG

Certainly you have a right to your opinion, and the right to express it. What you don't have is a right to express your opinion disrespectfully.

Short answer definition of an angry outburst: an angry outburst is any attempt to punish your wife, and any time your wife feels that something you did was an angry outburst, it was. (Likewise for disrespectful judgments, and selfish demands.)

I can testify from personal experience that that can feel maddening until you get used to it. But if you have angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments, or selfish demands in your past, your wife is the best judge of whether you are guilty of them now.

If you are in doubt as to why your wife feels something you said or did is demanding, disrespectful, or angry, post here and we will help you to understand her point of view. Because really that is what it is all about: learning to understand her point of view, so that you can protect her, and protect your growing account in her Love Bank.

The definition you need to be concerned with is how your wife's Love Bank defines it. And her Love Bank is an irrational and emotional thing. So no matter what logical definition you might have, no matter what reasoning you might employ to persuade her of your definition, it won't change what withdrawals are happening in her Love Bank.

Dr. Harley's position, as a behavioral psychologist, and as a marriage counselor with decades of experience, is that in order to have a good marriage, we have to grasp this fundamental insight: it is easier for a person to change behavior than it is to change their feelings about someone else's behavior.

As men, the classic mistake we make is expecting our wives to feel different about what we do. That essentially can't be changed: it's a product of genetics, hormones, upbringing, culture, and many other extraordinarily complex factors. But what can be changed is our habits, and you'll find a lot about habits in the Basic Concepts here.

Add this to your already long reading day.

How to Make Your Wife Happy

Yes, you got it!

It's a love bank withdrawal to her whether you consider it an angry outburst or not. And even if it's not directed to her.

I used to have angry outbursts at ATMs, gas pumps, and self service kiosks at the grocery store. I figured I wasn't hurting anyone since there wasn't a person on the receiving end. I was "getting my anger out." Truth is, I was terrifying my wife. And I was also reinforcing the habit of anger, training my brain to get really, really good at naturally picking "angry outburst" as a response.

In retrospect, I think I also looked like an idiot.

Dr. Harley had an angry outburst at a transmission he tried to install in his car over fifty years ago. Blew up and tried to punish the transmission. Beat on it with a crowbar, sure it would reform if it were punished.

He realized he was insane.

If we hooked up a biofeedback meter to you during that event, we would find that you are extremely excited and frustrated. If we measured the adrenaline in your bloodstream, we would find that you have tons of it! It prevents you from thinking rationally. It prevents you from acting in an predictable manner, meaning there's truly no telling what you might do. It interferes with your memory, meaning you may not be able to accurately remember what you did why angry (this is one reason the person having the AO doesn't get to say whether it was an AO or not).

And your angry outbursts will either get worse over time, or better if you control them.

Whatever you are thinking of doing or saying when you are angry, is going to be an irrational and short sighted thing to do. If you are upset at your wife and wanting her to change something, your angry outburst is going to make her LESS likely to feel motivated to change.


Some people feel one way about this, some people feel another.

Question: can you respect a difference of opinion on this subject?

In order to have a good marriage, we all have to protect our mate from the worst in us.

You really, really have no idea what effect your angry outburst has on your victim: your wife. If you did, if you could feel what she feels, likely you would want her to never witness another angry outburst from you ever again. Angry outbursts make us feel great, but they make everyone around us feel terrible!


Yes, it is Dr. Harley's position that if abuse does not stop, a husband or wife should protect themselves.