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I think the pressing concern is the dishonesty.
This is creating the barrier between man and wife.
This WW feels a great deal of shame and unless she confronts and accepts responsibility for it with honesty, she will justify and reverse blame it away forever.
In other words, remain wayward.
Gamma, is RH being insisted on? What are your timescales for that insistance to be acted upon before you go into Plan B? I assume you are in Plan A as you are not in recovery?
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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Indie,
No RH means no recovery.
Yes, so it is a question I would like to get answered, but also the most important one to me, followed by.
2) types of activities
3) number of times
4) size
5) where
6) when
7) why
8) emotional involvement
9) financial, who paid for lunch etc.
My W reveals things, actually slips up, on rare occasions as she has a very difficult time with fault. She is especially worried about my confronting OM2.
God Bless
Gamma I think you have the right to know anything you want to know. You should be able to make your decision based on as many of the facts as you wish to know. These issues are relevant to you. With my H's long affair, I never asked about the types of activities or size (!), but I asked and found out about the other things on this list. One thing that was different for me is that the WS is my husband - a man - and so I don't need to ask whether the sex with OW was orgasmic. Of course it was, for the man. Gamma, let's suppose that you ever get the answers that you seek, and they are devastating. Let's suppose your wife had a fantastic sexual experience (and let's not go into details of what that means, physically). What then? I must be on Gamma's ignore list  t/j Hi there S_C!!! 
BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011
Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.
We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
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Indie,
If she refuses RH she's still wayward and not a woman at all but an alien.
Well OM2 was 20+ years ago, so my W feels it is implicitly forgiven or should just be forgotten.
So I can't say that she is an active wayward, but more like a W that never came clean.
God Bless She's still lying to you to protect her feelings and protect OM. The abuse of the A is continued by this behaviour and recovery is impossible. It is ACTIVELY wayward to put yourself and OM ahead of your BH. What does your wifes 'feelings' about lying to you got to do with anything? MB recovery has EXACT specifications. You won't recover your marriage by asking what the wayward feels you should do.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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SugarCane,
Gamma, let's suppose that you ever get the answers that you seek, and they are devastating. Let's suppose your wife had a fantastic sexual experience (and let's not go into details of what that means, physically).
What then?
At this point I would thank her for her honesty and likely divorce her, the wasted/marginalized years are painful.
OM2 has not gotten his yet either, but since I don't know the details...
God Bless
Gamma
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Its just putting the cart before the horse to expect SF to be any good when one of the BASIC requirements of recovery has been ignored.
How can you have good SF without recovery?
You can't.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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Indie,
If she refuses RH she's still wayward and not a woman at all but an alien.
Well OM2 was 20+ years ago, so my W feels it is implicitly forgiven or should just be forgotten.
So I can't say that she is an active wayward, but more like a W that never came clean.
God Bless My concern here would be, how much is it reasonable to expect someone to remember after 20+ years. If someone pressed me to remember minute details about something that happened more than 20 years ago, I seriously doubt I would be able to. Gamma, I agree you have a right to know whatever details you feel the need to know, but if that was so important to you, you probably should have insisted on having those details a long time ago as a condition of entering into recovery. Much of what you're asking may simply be gone from your wife's memory at this point. I'm sure she may be able to recall some things, but I seriously doubt she will be able to remember every little detail, and much of what you are asking for are very specific details. What if your wife isn't answering your questions simply because she no longer has any of the answers in her memory?
Me: BS/FWW: 48
BS/WH: 50
DS: 30, 27, 25
DD: 28
OC: 10
BH and I are raising my OC together.
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SugarCane,
Gamma, let's suppose that you ever get the answers that you seek, and they are devastating. Let's suppose your wife had a fantastic sexual experience (and let's not go into details of what that means, physically).
What then?
At this point I would thank her for her honesty and likely divorce her, the wasted/marginalized years are painful.
OM2 has not gotten his yet either, but since I don't know the details...
God Bless
Gamma You are owed the full truth and the freedom to leave her if you wish. This must be INSISTED upon and ENFORCED with boundaries.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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Indie,
She's still lying to you to protect her feelings and protect OM
Very much so, in fact she still views OM2 as a good person. She does say "but I chose you", not entirely sure why she chose me, but it apparently escapes her that I never made her try out for her position.
God Bless
Gamma
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Indie,
If she refuses RH she's still wayward and not a woman at all but an alien.
Well OM2 was 20+ years ago, so my W feels it is implicitly forgiven or should just be forgotten.
So I can't say that she is an active wayward, but more like a W that never came clean.
God Bless My concern here would be, how much is it reasonable to expect someone to remember after 20+ years. If someone pressed me to remember minute details about something that happened more than 20 years ago, I seriously doubt I would be able to. Gamma, I agree you have a right to know whatever details you feel the need to know, but if that was so important to you, you probably should have insisted on having those details a long time ago as a condition of entering into recovery. Much of what you're asking may simply be gone from your wife's memory at this point. I'm sure she may be able to recall some things, but I seriously doubt she will be able to remember every little detail, and much of what you are asking for are very specific details. What if your wife isn't answering your questions simply because she no longer has any of the answers in her memory? I would agree when it came to some of the fine points, but Gamma has already spelled out that she is resolute in not giving any details at all. She isn't claiming that she does not remember from what he is saying. And she slips up and reveals things accidentally. If that is the case RH must be insisted upon.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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At this point I would thank her for her honesty and likely divorce her, the wasted/marginalized years are painful.
OM2 has not gotten his yet either, but since I don't know the details...
God Bless
Gamma You would divorce if the answers to your questions were devastating, so it seems clear to me that you won't stay in a loveless marriage and you won't accept second best. Why, then, have you not divorced your wife when you do know that there have been four OM, and that she won't tell you much about any of them - not just the sexual details, as I understand it, but anything, despite your asking? Why have you put up with this?
BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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Indie,
She's still lying to you to protect her feelings and protect OM
Very much so, in fact she still views OM2 as a good person. She does say "but I chose you", not entirely sure why she chose me, but it apparently escapes her that I never made her try out for her position.
God Bless
Gamma Completely unacceptable. Not even close to recovery. What is your PLAN to enforce RH? What are your timescles? Are you clear with WW that it is her honesty which is to blame. Be a broken record, 'I need honesty' then enforce your Plan B. If you are muddying the waters talking about her orgasms she'll be completely baffled. It is impossible for an unrepentant wayward to feel anything real for her H. They often believe it will always be impossible the poor fools.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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You would divorce if the answers to your questions were devastating, so it seems lear to me that you won't stay in a loveless marriage and you won't accept second best.
Why, then, have you not divorced your wife when you do know that there have been four OM, and that she won't tell you much about any of them - not just the sexual details, as I understand it, but anything, despite your asking?
Why have you put up with this? I agree. If there have been this many A's and your wife refuses to answer any questions about them, you should divorce. It's ridiculous to put up with something like that for so long. I suspect she doesn't tell you because she knows nothing will happen if she doesn't. She hasn't told you much all these years, and nothing has happened so far. By continuing to stay in the marriage whether or not she agrees to RO, you are just reinforcing this belief.
Me: BS/FWW: 48
BS/WH: 50
DS: 30, 27, 25
DD: 28
OC: 10
BH and I are raising my OC together.
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I'm confused. Gamma, can you put a timeline on the affairs and the marriage? You wrote: When did you find out?
When I got hit with a ton of bricks. My then girlfriend/now wife told me "she felt nothing for me", and had "feelings for OM". This wasn't exactly "I love you but I'm not in love with you", but after reading on this site I saw the equivalency. Did any affairs happen DURING the marriage?
Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
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Very much so, in fact she still views OM2 as a good person. She does say "but I chose you", not entirely sure why she chose me, but it apparently escapes her that I never made her try out for her position.
God Bless
Gamma Gamma, your story is not clear to most people here. I don't think you have ever given us a clear timeline. Like me, you don't seem to have ever had your own thread, so can you please tell us: How long have you been married? Is this the first marriage for both of you? How old is your son? When was D Day - or was there more than one D Day? Did you get the news of all four OM at once, or one-at-a-time, or how? How spread out were your D Days? (I get the impression that you learned of the affairs long after the facts, and that you have not been living with these questions for 20 years.) Were all 4 of them PAs? I believe you have reason to doubt that paternity of your son? There's more, but I'll pause and let you answer.
BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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I must be on Gamma's ignore list Hi b_r! Give the poor man a break. Some of us - well, I, anyway, have been wondering about Gamma's wife for years, but there has never been a thread on which we could ask our questions. Now, thanks to Pep, we're deluging him, and he can't type fast enough!
BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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SugarCane,
Why have you put up with this?
Had I found MB 20 years ago I would likely not have or would have found out everything.
Since I improved my marriage via MB I do have less incentive to leave, also I am patient and feel she is getting close to telling me, and for my children.
A few weeks ago she said something like "things she did made me untrusting of her" which oddly enough was an enormous breakthrough for her.
Three of the OM were EAs only, I believe, which for me mitigates their effect.
God Bless
Gamma
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SugarCane,
Will get back to this tomorrow, not being rude, that one might take some time, thanks for everyones replies and questions.
God Bless
Gamma
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SugarCane,
Why have you put up with this?
Had I found MB 20 years ago I would likely not have or would have found out everything.
Since I improved my marriage via MB I do have less incentive to leave, also I am patient and feel she is getting close to telling me, and for my children.
A few weeks ago she said something like "things she did made me untrusting of her" which oddly enough was an enormous breakthrough for her.
Three of the OM were EAs only, I believe, which for me mitigates their effect.
God Bless
Gamma I'm none the wiser about why you put up with this. Even though you did not find MB 20 years ago, you evidently discovered MB at some point, so you know why your need to know is important. Why have you taken onboard the parts of MB about improving your marriage and not taken the parts which tell you to get full details of the affairs before recovery can commence?
BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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SugarCane,
Will get back to this tomorrow, not being rude, that one might take some time, thanks for everyones replies and questions.
God Bless
Gamma God bless, Gamma.
BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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I must be on Gamma's ignore list Hi b_r! Give the poor man a break. I'm being nice...and was trying to be helpful. Four yrs on MB and step one was ignored???? Some of us - well, I, anyway, have been wondering about Gamma's wife for years, but there has never been a thread on which we could ask our questions. Now, thanks to Pep, we're deluging him, and he can't type fast enough! I'm wondering too.
BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011
Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.
We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
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