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Wow. Does anyone know the date of the show? I would like to read the study Dr. Harley quoted... Driven, shoot him an email at the radio station. He has quoted this study numerous times over the years. He spoke to the doctor who conducted the study.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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In my case, the OM was in our home numerous times,maybe 10 or 12 times, and my children were asleep upstairs. I was also at the OM house while his wife was asleep upstairs....I know...it is horrifyingly ugly and brazen. But I write to tell you that even with those circumstances (and yes, my husband knows the truth of this)your marriage is still recoverable. We are recovering. But I will tell you that it is tough. Really tough. I think most men would have given up. I think I would have if I had been him. But he felt like he needed to rescue me from myself. He understood the addiction was so powerful that I had become a different person. So he kept fighting and intervening, even when I didn't care or want him to. I wanted to die in my addiction. So, yes there is still hope. We are living proof of that.
me: FWW/BW
Married 20 years, 4 kids
We made it.
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I have heard Dr. Harley say that he knows of otherwise very intelligent business people who make stupid decisions regarding adultery.
Waywards truly do become somebody "different" from the one we know and love. They can become incredibly selfish and deluded in their thinking, leading to decisions they often later come to regret (if they come out of the fog.)
Recovery is possible IF Extraordinary Precautions are followed for life and if both spouses agree to build a romantic passionate marriage. The road to recovery is narrow, and it's not easy. Recovery takes about 2 - 5 years.
The conditions for recovery seem different depending on gender. A repentant male wayward is expected to return on bended knee, hat in hand. A wayward wife isn't necessarily going to be repentant. Some ARE, but many many aren't. They felt justified in having an affair, because of marital neglect or some other reason. (Reasons, not excuses.)
Married 1980
DDay Nov 2010
Recovered thanks to Marriage Builders
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Pepperbend and others, is the wiser course to conclude that involving our kids in this manner went so far beyond EA/PA, that div is the better option? Or would most just see it as just one more aspect of the fog and R is still possible?
Has anyone ever heard of such conduct like this mentioned on the forum? This has happened many times before on these forums. It does not mean the M is unrecoverable. Thanks high road. I figured I was not the first to deal with this. It's good to know that it can be overcome.
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I have heard Dr. Harley say that he knows of otherwise very intelligent business people who make stupid decisions regarding adultery.
Waywards truly do become somebody "different" from the one we know and love. They can become incredibly selfish and deluded in their thinking, leading to decisions they often later come to regret (if they come out of the fog.)
Recovery is possible IF Extraordinary Precautions are followed for life and if both spouses agree to build a romantic passionate marriage. The road to recovery is narrow, and it's not easy. Recovery takes about 2 - 5 years.
The conditions for recovery seem different depending on gender. A repentant male wayward is expected to return on bended knee, hat in hand. A wayward wife isn't necessarily going to be repentant. Some ARE, but many many aren't. They felt justified in having an affair, because of marital neglect or some other reason. (Reasons, not excuses.) Could you please explain this last point about reasons vs. excuses. I know that I did not provide sufficient financial security and she was and is the better provider, but I still do not think that was a reason to justify her affair. I do not want to down play that failure of mine, but in all other ways I was a very decent father/husband. I now know I was not enough of an alpha. I did not figure that out until October.
Last edited by Man_learning; 07/24/12 10:15 PM.
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Man_learning,
Reasons, because they do not have to be apologized for and suggest that a rational decision had to be made, they absolve the culprit of guilt.
Excuses by their very nature highlight the insincerity, childishness,shallowness and guilt of the person making them.
Which would a perfectionist who can't handle failure or criticism choose?
God Bless
Gamma
Last edited by Gamma; 07/24/12 05:09 PM.
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Pepperbend and others, is the wiser course to conclude that involving our kids in this manner went so far beyond EA/PA, that div is the better option? No. Or would most just see it as just one more aspect of the fog and R is still possible? Recovery is still possible. Sorry If I gave the wrong impression. Has anyone ever heard of such conduct like this mentioned on the forum? Hundreds of times !
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Could you please explain this last point about reasons vs. excuses. I know that I did not provide sufficient financial security and she was and is the better provider, but I still do not think that was a reason to justify her affair. I do not want to down play that failure of mine, but in all other ways I was a very decent father/husband. I now know a I was not enough of an alpha. I did not figure that out until October. Maybe this will help put it in perspective: MelodyLane: Let me add something to what I have already written to you. I hope I'm not being too redundant.
You will hear Joyce and I repeat, "there are reasons but no excuses." One of the reasons for an affair is that emotional needs are not being adequately met in marriage, which makes an affair that meets those needs more tempting. But the same thing can be said of some who rob banks. They may be out of work, need money to pay the rent, ask for a loan but are refused by the bank, which makes robbing it more tempting. One reason for the robbery is that the bank refused the loan, but it wasn't the bank's fault that it was robbed. On hindsight, a bank might have helped the robber get the help he needed through social services, but the bank is under no obligation to do so, even though they advertise that it is a "caring bank."
An affair is different from robbing banks in that a couple have promised to be more caring than banks. But the principle is the same. The lack of care by one spouse does not excuse harmful behavior by the other spouse. Even when one spouse absolutely refuses to be affectionate, or to make love, or to talk intimately, or to join in recreational activities with the other spouse, it gives them no right to have those needs met by someone else of the opposite sex in an affair. They have the right to separate until the other spouse meets those needs, or even divorce when it becomes obvious that there will be absolutely no cooperation (there are many who strongly disagree with me on that point). But an affair is so cruel and so painful that nothing any one spouse does (including having an affair themselves) can justify the suffering that an affair causes.
Making a disgraceful act more tempting by someone is no excuse for that person committing the disgraceful act. Besides, in most marriages, there are times when emotional needs are not being met for reasons beyond anyone's control. That's why I recommend extraordinary precautions to help spouses avoid an affair. They are to not allow anyone of the opposite sex to meet their need for affection, or intimate conversation, or recreational companionship, or sexual fulfillment. When those needs are met, they deposit so many love units that you are likely to fall in love with that person, and make you hurt your spouse in the worst way possible. I hope that explanation helps.
Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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In my case, the OM was in our home numerous times,maybe 10 or 12 times, and my children were asleep upstairs. I was also at the OM house while his wife was asleep upstairs....I know...it is horrifyingly ugly and brazen. But I write to tell you that even with those circumstances (and yes, my husband knows the truth of this)your marriage is still recoverable. We are recovering. But I will tell you that it is tough. Really tough. I think most men would have given up. I think I would have if I had been him. But he felt like he needed to rescue me from myself. He understood the addiction was so powerful that I had become a different person. So he kept fighting and intervening, even when I didn't care or want him to. I wanted to die in my addiction. So, yes there is still hope. We are living proof of that. Finding Freedom, thanks for sharing your experience. May I please ask what goes through a women's mind during such events and do women ever think of their kids or husband at those times? I know you cannot speak for every woman, but perhaps you can say what was in your mind at those times.
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Man_learning,
If I may and while you seek answers, offer an answer for your Q regarding a man or a woman's mindset. Know this: they differ little when it comes to an affair. You need to wrap your head around the "addict" concept, OK? Man or woman, when one is engulfed in an affair, the mind is COMPLETELY overtaken with the high the affair gives them. Crazy behavior results...yep, including in the marital home, and also including locations that a BS would never imagine a WS would sink to or make such and effort to make a reality. It just is. It is the very natural of the life-cycle of an affair.
It's a HIGH. The sooner you treat is a a "high" to sooner you will kill it and start a process of recovery, if possible.
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Also, do "they think of their kids, etc." Sure they do. It's called compartmentalizing. Men can do this easier that women, but it happens on both fronts.
One pocket of life includes you, kids, life, home, dinner...and the other pocket includes the OM/OW and the fantasy and high that meets the emotional needs they perceive will never happen at home.
This is also called "cake-eating". Needs are met by the family life, but un-met needs are met by the OW/OM. Perfect for the cheater. Trust that the cheater rarely wants one over the other, but wants BOTH. If the cheater truly wanted one versus the other, he/she would divorce immediately, or break off an affair immediately. No, they want BOTH in harmony.
Get that concept and you'll be 100%, regardless of the outcome.
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Also, do "they think of their kids, etc." Sure they do. It's called compartmentalizing. Men can do this easier that women, but it happens on both fronts.
One pocket of life includes you, kids, life, home, dinner...and the other pocket includes the OM/OW and the fantasy and high that meets the emotional needs they perceive will never happen at home.
This is also called "cake-eating". Needs are met by the family life, but un-met needs are met by the OW/OM. Perfect for the cheater. Trust that the cheater rarely wants one over the other, but wants BOTH. If the cheater truly wanted one versus the other, he/she would divorce immediately, or break off an affair immediately. No, they want BOTH in harmony.
Get that concept and you'll be 100%, regardless of the outcome. Okay. Is there a list of un-met needs. I am trying to learn what needs I was not meeting. I have asked her and she has not told me. Not sure if she knows or knows and just won't tell me.
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Man_learning,
If I may and while you seek answers, offer an answer for your Q regarding a man or a woman's mindset. Know this: they differ little when it comes to an affair. You need to wrap your head around the "addict" concept, OK? Man or woman, when one is engulfed in an affair, the mind is COMPLETELY overtaken with the high the affair gives them. Crazy behavior results...yep, including in the marital home, and also including locations that a BS would never imagine a WS would sink to or make such and effort to make a reality. It just is. It is the very natural of the life-cycle of an affair.
It's a HIGH. The sooner you treat is a a "high" to sooner you will kill it and start a process of recovery, if possible. I have read about how the brain chemicals are as a result of an affair, but I still have not fully processed this to accept the "it just is" reality of this situation. BTW you are right about the locations. I did not list them all, but some were surprising.
Last edited by Man_learning; 07/25/12 07:30 AM.
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FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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Pepperbend and others, is the wiser course to conclude that involving our kids in this manner went so far beyond EA/PA, that div is the better option? No. Or would most just see it as just one more aspect of the fog and R is still possible? Recovery is still possible. Sorry If I gave the wrong impression. Has anyone ever heard of such conduct like this mentioned on the forum? Hundreds of times ! I could see where a dumb man might do this, but an otherwise good mother? This is a bit mind boggling to me. This models completely unacceptable behavior as being acceptable. This is they type of activity that will leave the kids thinking they can do this later on in their lives.
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Man_Learning,
Yes, I did think of my husband and kids, but like Surfer88 said, it was the addiction. It was overwhelming and overpowering. I wanted to stop. I didn't want to stop. I was an emotional mess.
I would end things with OM, or try to because I knew what I was doing was wrong wrong wrong. I kept going back.
My husband would characterize me as a highly intelligent woman. A wonderful mother, and up until the adultery, a loving wife. I became someone different during the affair.
It was an ADDICTION. I loved it and hated it at the same time.
me: FWW/BW
Married 20 years, 4 kids
We made it.
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Pepperbend and others, is the wiser course to conclude that involving our kids in this manner went so far beyond EA/PA, that div is the better option? No. Or would most just see it as just one more aspect of the fog and R is still possible? Recovery is still possible. Sorry If I gave the wrong impression. Has anyone ever heard of such conduct like this mentioned on the forum? Hundreds of times ! I could see where a dumb man might do this, but an otherwise good mother? This is a bit mind boggling to me. This models completely unacceptable behavior as being acceptable. This is they type of activity that will leave the kids thinking they can do this later on in their lives. My wife while in the fog met a guy online and went and sex at his house 4 hours later. She also was thinking of meeting a 19 year old known drug user for sex. Luckily I caught that in time. My wife was 39 at the time. My wife had pictures of mens penises on her cell phone. She offered to fly to California and have ex with a guy she never had met. Its addiction insanity. Meth addicts will prostitute themselves and sell their children for a hit.
BH: 46
FWW: 44
3 DD: 20,17,11
Married 24 years
PA/EA: 5/08
DDay: 6/08
NC: 8/08
Previous EA 1998 confessed 8/08
In Recovery
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A few years ago I watched a documentary about drug addiction. I find it relevant to use here.
In this documentary, the addicts would do anything necessary to achieve their high. They knew that what they were doing was wrong, but they succumbed to pull of the addiction.
These addicts stole from family members, friends, and strangers alike. They knew it was wrong, but they craved the high.
Their teeth became unhealthy and they suffered decay; they knew they looked awful, but they craved the high.
They suffered from illusions of strange skin sensations that made them pick at their skin, creating sores and scabs. It looked terrible, but it was worth it because they wanted their high.
Those who were able to kick their addiction looked back at those times and shake their heads, ashamed at what they had done.
But they did it all to get their high.
It's really not much different from adultery, is it? At some point, the adulterer justifies it in his/her mind and deceives himself. The conscience hardens, and they no longer look at themselves or at what they are doing through the eyes of a moral person. They are looking at it through the eyes of someone who craves the high.
Married 1980
DDay Nov 2010
Recovered thanks to Marriage Builders
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Excellent radio clip where Dr. H talks about what a WH should do for his wife to give him another try after his affairs. He explains it like an addict. Radio Clip on a WH on what to do to get back with his wife 3:50 mark
FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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LongWay's insights from the drug addiction documentary are very applicable in my adultery case. I really exchanged truth for a lie. Peace for chaos.
I am a woman whose Christian faith is of vital importance. I am a homeschooling mother to my 4 children; their wholesome upbringing is paramount. Cuss words do not come out of my mouth. We have always lived on a budget, well below our means to be prudent and wise.
Contrast. My affair partner had no faith, and didn't really care if there is or isn't a God. He has delinquint kids. Cusses like a sailor, and is penniless because of silly spending.
I wouldn't even be attracted to that in "real" life !! Yet in my addiction, this guy became my soul mate. I began to adapt some of his habits and lifestyle. Cusswords came out of my mouth. I didn't pray much or read my Bible anymore. I began taking money out of our grocery budget to pay for hotels with OM (he never bothered to pay...and why didn't I care ? I don't know). My standards for my kids were lowered. They still seemed so high when I compared them to OM kids, so I figured" good enough". In short, I became a person I would despise in "real" life.
Melody Lane said something to me that I have not forgotten. And I hope I NEVER forget it. She said," What the OM did to you is the equivilant of spitting in your face".
When I started looking at it like that, I could see she was right. I began to see things more clearly. I began to see the harm I was causing to my own family. I started waking up, and seeing what I was doing to the people I loved. I was spitting in their face too.
There is hope that your wife can wake up too. It might take a while, but it CAN happen.
me: FWW/BW
Married 20 years, 4 kids
We made it.
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