All good, bud. I do understand.


I think, though, that there is another benefit at this point; painting a picture of what divorce looks like. No more "drive through" need meeting.

It doesn't appear from WPG's updated posts that her mental/physical health is still at risk.

The laptop incident doesn't concern you? It most certainly does concern me.

Of course it does, NG. AO's need to be addressed.
This is part of establishing and maintaining healthy boundaries with anyone.

AO's need to be addressed.

Well good. "Addressing" these particular "AOs" (Seriously, I got ARRESTED for accidentally breaking a pair of glasses, so we're going to call mindless destructive violence toward children AOs? Whatever...) is going to require a mindset of acceptance and cooperation from Broken. I don't see that as readily likely, from the three year history of resentment and adolescent self-pity that has been the history here.

So my method of "addressing" them (given his attitude) is extinction of future opportunities.

Warning: venting ahead!

Our separation is working out about as well as I expected, and most of you predicted. Meaning not well at all.

I find myself becoming increasingly bitter, angry, and resentful. I try to avoid interacting with broken when I am at my worst, but that is sometimes difficult. Weekends he'll just shows up at the house, sometimes on some errand or another. He expected my family to include him in their b-day dinner for DD#2 (we�d already celebrated her b-day together; this was just with my mother and grandmother). Only one day has passed, since he moved out, where he and I haven't seen each other at all for a 24-hour period. I want him to see the girls and remain an integral part in their life, and I don't want to do anything to discourage that...I just haven't quite figured out how to best do that and take care of myself.

He�s asked for sex twice more and I�ve turned him down both times. I don�t know why I keep trying to explain myself because he doesn�t get it. Doesn�t understand why I think he�s viewing me as a wh*re, since he comes over and does things around the house, mows the grass, takes care of the kids, cooks dinner�my response, �So I am supposed to sleep with you?� Wow. So how is that not being viewed as a wh*re? Because payment is in the form of yardwork instead of cash? Doesn�t understand why I would say there would be no intimacy and affection in the act of sex, that the reason I don't want to have sex is because there is no intimacy and affection between us...yet he says he thinks that those things (intimacy and affection) are there when we are having sex. Why he would want to have intimacy and affection with someone who a.) makes him nauseous and b.) he does not want to share any other part of life with is beyond me.

I learned that he is �friends� with at least one of his ex-girlfriends on FB. Now, this is the last �serious� one he had before me, who also supposedly cheated on him. The one who, when she learned broken was going to ask me to marry him, asked him to marry her instead. Nice, huh?

I recognize it would be very easy for me to slip into old patterns of waywardness. I am desperately lonely. I miss having someone to talk to�my friends are all involved with their own lives, and are sick of hearing about my dissolving marriage. I have found myself starting to talk to broken at times when he�s around, but then I remember he�s not really interested. And if he acts interested, I feel like it�s only because he�s preparing to ask me for sex. I can hardly look him in the eyes anymore.

One of my coworkers got married over the weekend. She didn�t invite me, which at first really hurt my feelings. I figured with my marital problems maybe she thought I was bad mojo. In retrospect, I�m glad now that I didn�t have to go to a wedding, slap a smile on my face and pretend to be happy.

OK, venting off. I needed that this morning. I know there is no advice to be given here other than what has already been said. I realize Plan B will not save this marriage. Actually, nothing but divine intervention (a burning bush, perhaps?) will save this marriage. But here's the thing: I'm not even sure I care about saving it anymore. I don't want to be his "friend." I don't want to be his "f***-buddy." If we aren't going to be husband and wife, I want to emotionally detach as much as possible. The current arrangement is obviously not allowing much detachment. Financially though, I still feel stuck. Going to investigate some options for refinancing the house in my name this week, and hopefully will find out something positive, and we'll (I'll) be able to move - albeit slowly - in that direction.

This is the perfect time to plan b

Yeah, but Wulffie is going to have to devise a methodology banning broken from her residence first. If he is still on the deed, absent anything actionable like a TRO, she will be beating her head against the wall preventing him from being present.

I'm assuming you're looking into making this a reality, W? You know you would help your barriers by doing/contracting those chores independent of him, right?

I would love to welcome you to Plan B land, WPG.

So many people think Plan B is 'giving up', or is passive - not at all.

Plan B is innately respectful of true marriage. What a true marriage looks like. It removes the temptation for a spouse to wield their power over the other one.

POJA, as we know is Dr H's method for ensuring equal power. Simply a failure to POJA will earn a power-mad spouse a stint in Plan B after a legnth of time. If married to an MBer.

Usually the power being wielded is the power of waywardness. The wayward has two people to choose from and the BS is desperate. When the BS becomes a dooormat, or even if they do not, the WS tries to wield absolute power.

So Plan B is needed, for protection.

In your case the power being wielded over you is the power of betrayal, of your guilt and shame - which a BS sometimes abuses when a WS is absolutely remorseful.

I have tasted this power myself, even though my husband never expressed remorse. There were very dark times when I viciously vowed how I would make him make it up to me - in ways that were past the bounds of POJA.

His treatment of your sexual union is abhorrent. A true abuse of power. He does not think you will stand up for the true values which must be upheld in marriage.

When I went into Plan B, I did not want to. I did not want to 'give up', I wanted to fight.

But Dr Harley knew better than I did about what caused affairs, so I trusted him as to what to do in the aftermath.

It wasnt until I did it that I realised how loving I was being by giving him that Plan B letter. I gave a free and valuable offering of a TRUE marriage.

Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absoutely.

By taking the weapon out of his hands, I was doing him a favour.

I made him a less abusive human being. If not for me, then for his mother, father, siblings etc.

What he did with that opportunity was up to him.

Working on the house sitch at present, NG. Ideally, I'd like to keep the house and stay here with the girls, at least until they get through school, and have broken sign a quitclaim deed. He won't be responsible for the new mortgage and we can negotiate a settlement for us to split the equity in the house as of the date of separation at some point in the future. It remains to be seen whether or not my income alone will carry a refi, though. Hopefully I will get some good news this week...although I was also told today by one lender a refi could take 3-6 months (apparently everybody is still refinancing like crazy). If I find out I can't qualify to refi on my income alone (ironic, since my salary's been bearing the brunt of household expenses for the past year), then we'll most likely have to put it on the market, preferably as-is.

You know, indie, when I read your thread, or Cara's, or Scotty's, I would never think of connecting any of you amazing women to "giving up." Your strength in the face of all your WH's have thrown at you simply amazes me.



I like how you characterize Plan B, indie...I can totally see what you mean, though, that feeling of wanting to "fight" and not give up on our marriage. I think there's still part of me that thinks she needs to keep fighting...I don't see her as much anymore, but she's still in here, somewhere. HHH might remember her as I think she was the one who kept "Tommy Boy-ing" everything.

I wonder if somewhere inside him, he sees me as so tainted by what I did, that he assumes that the true values of marriage mean nothing to me anymore? Or maybe they don't mean anything to him anymore.

In the end, it doesn't matter.

I don't like who I am right now, so angry and bitter. I didn't realize how difficult it was going to be to live like this. It seems so different from last time he was gone, perhaps because then I was so desperate to get him back.

I want him to be happy. I want someone to love him the way he needs to be loved. I want those things for myself as well. I believe that the only thing I have left to give broken is his freedom, and the opportunity to find that...free from my presence or interference. I can't blame him for his reactions to my infidelity...nor do I regret fighting for our marriage for so long. I think I will at least be able to look into my daughters' eyes one day and tell them I did everything I could.

Just as the other posters have said, his treatment and attitude about SF is abhorrent.

Getting into a dark plan B will be the best place you can be to get objectivity and bind up these wounds, seeing that H is not interested in healing, just revenge

Yes his just compensation is valid, but the anger in nature that he should be directing at OM, has been directed at you instead, and his insecurity also, you have been put in the position of healing as a poster above has explained eloquently already, by emotional abuse.

Get those plan B holes plugged, so you both can heal, and not at the expense of more pain and abuse

Abuse of power absolutly

Thank you, CP...as always, I appreciate your thoughts & advice.

Miss you around here, V...hope things have gotten better for you.

right back at'cha!

Okay, kiddo, it's (past) time to get on with your life.

As the irritating person least likely to resent your telling me to go to hell, here is what I urge you to do for you and yours.

You need to put every effort into the refi of your current abode. Failing that, you will have to initiate a sale at whatever terms you can get. Not sure in NC, but there is in NY a legal maneuver to coerce a reluctant spouse to participate (something like a writ of partition for dissolving unincorporated partnerships).

In the meantime, you need to arrange for execution of those tasks which provides FBH the excuse to hang around like a hyena waiting for some carrion. (I know that is an ugly analogy, but creativity fails me right now.)

You have to file. Yes, I said the forbidden word. Three years of this Never-Never Land, Wendy, is long enough for Peter Pan to peel off his tights and grow the [censored] up.

If a separation period is required, it's time to get that calendar turning.

Depending on the refi/sale decision, you have to start thinking about where you WANT to be. If you remain in your current home, you need to discover what in NC can be done to assist with your Plan B while everything else sorts itself out. If moving is necessary, make "privacy" a large part of your requirements.

And YES, you need to institute a full Plan B. If this is concurrent with the separation/dissolution delay, so much the better.

Yesterday was "Constitution Day". Tomorrow is "Talk Like a Pirate Day". From the first we got "in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity", which parallels in civic form what would be a pretty good basis for family life. From the second we have Blackbeard's final challenge, "Damn you for Villains", as he died on Okracoke Island. In your case, in order to achieve the first, it may be necessary to pronounce the second.

NG, I'd never tell you to go to hell!

Refi not looking so good. I had initially been worried about my income not being enough to qualify, but my income is fine. Problem is going to be the appraisal value of the house, which as everyone knows, the real estate market has tanked. When we refi'ed a couple years ago, we consolidated the mortgage with a home equity line. Refinancing will essentially make me accountable for that entire balance, even though the home equity balance was marital debt (home improvement projects, trip to Disney, classic car purchase that was not POJA'ed [but was "our" tenth anniversary gift, woo-hoo]). On the one hand I am willing to do that if it means my freedom and I guess it cancels out his cashing out his 401(k) last year when he was laid off (that was also un POJA'ed, not that I expect any of the decisions broken makes - or has ever made - to be POJA'ed with me). On the other it makes me feel very resentful. but again, I think I can get over that if I have the chance to start over.

As far as the separation period, case law in NC is mixed - there have actually been cases where the husband and wife moved back in together and the court did not consider it a restarting of the separation clock - apparently the court looks at the totality of circumstances. Since when broken moved back home last year, he had no intent on reconciling the marriage, it was for financial reasons only, there is a good chance (based on case law) the court would allow the original date of separation (12/31/2010) to stand. The only reason it would be questioned anyway is if broken challenged that date. I suppose he could just to continue being difficult, and since he supposedly hasn't made up his mind yet (so he says...he needs "time").

I don't want to sell. When we bought the house ten years ago, I was the one who found it. I was pregnant with DD#1 and I wanted to move close to my parents. broken didn't even care to see the house before we made an offer on it. Maybe he never really wanted to move in the first place, but as I said, it's not like we were POJA'ing anything in our marriage. I never felt like he put as much care and effort into the new house as he did our old one (like the yardwork - he did an amazing job at the old house - even got yard of the month once out of the whole subdivision). Most of the big improvements were made in 2011, after broken moved out, and my father played a huge role in helping to do them. I have so many memories of my dad there in the last year of his life, and everything he did to help me after broken left, and I know the sentimentality is making me stupid, but that's a big part of it.

Anyway, knowing that it's likely I'll either end up having to sell or be forced to accept a refi with less-than-stellar terms (like adding PMI or a higher interest rate) has put me in a crappy mood this morning. I was a b*tch to him this morning (he's watching the girls while they are out of school) and feel bad about it, but to be brutally honest, there are days I am just tired of making efforts to be "nice". The last 2 nights he's stayed at the house so late that I can't get the girls to go to bed at a decent hour, which means I'm not getting any time to myself. And yes, I realize that I'm not being honest about it, so not doing a good job of setting up boundaries there. I feel guilty b/c the girls want him there. It's easier to tell him "no" for sex than it is to feel like I am disappointing my girls.

I fully accept the blame and responsibility for committing adultery, and I fully accept that he is one of the BS's that cannot get past it...but I do not accept the full load of blame for this limbo. Yes, part of this languishing has been my doing, my fears, my pattern of conflict avoidance...I accept that the WS must drive the recovery bus, but at some point the BS must choose to get on board - or not. We didn't have a good marriage before my adultery, and we were both responsible for that. I concur that it is past time to realize - no, internalize - that I am fighting for something that should not be saved.

Okay, now that you have restated the environmental factors, what is your plan to step through the tasks?

- Do you have a date from bank/finance company as to refi options? (In the meantime, you should see about getting broken to sign a quit-claim; you're paying all the bills anyway, and there's likely no great equity involved. In addition, there may be income tax advantages as well.)

- At the same time, get counsel from a realtor as to the likely sale price your property could command. (In the back of MY mind, anyway, is the niggling thought of removing you and yours from the bad memories your current house will contain. New life::New Home!)

- Assuming your interpretation of separation-date is solid (at least until/unless challenged), when will you take the next step re: dissolution?

I'm not here to hustle you into D-land, Wulffie, but not to decide is to decide. When I was dithering about the cancer surgery, my doctor said, "Well, without it, I'll give you two years, and the second will be sheer torture!" I owe him big-time for being brutally honest with me, though I was uncomfortable with his directness then. A month later I had the procedure, and the prostate had become fully engaged - another month, and likely there'd be one less poster here six years later.

Your DDs will soon be entering their teens - there's enough turmoil in that period of their lives not to want to delay your resolution until that time.

I think it's time for Plan B, what do you say?

You think it's strong and non-passive in other people. But everyone does. I did. However when it comes down to doing it YOURSELF, you feel like you are letting the side down.



Dont let them get used to this vision of marraige they see right now. This treatment of you.

Stand up for the kind of marriage you want for them. What you would want them to do in this situation. It will be rough but you have no choice.

He likes being in the right as the betrayed spouse and is past the ordinary hurt stage and is just abusing that power. He's getting a kick out of it now. Or has lost control of it.

Show your girls how you gracefully close the door on abuse.

If you ever want to go to dinner or lunch contact the mods for my email. I work not terribly far from you and will be over at Duke next Friday for a doctor's appt. DH may or may not travel with me, I'm thinking not since I want to work for a few hours on my way to the doc. I'm taking tomorrow off due to minor sugery today and don't want to burn all of my PTO. LOL

It would be nice to have a MB supporting friend.

My daughter and son-in-law both work for Duke!

Small world! I have a Rheumatology appt over at Duke, but the remainder of my docs are at Wake Forest. Duke has a Bechets doctor which is hard to come by in America.