I feel like I've tried Prisca, I really do. Back in Feb after the thread with Dr.Harley and my subsequent apology I got on the phone with Steve. Maybe I'm just not good husband material, maybe I deserve to be left but I know that I gave it a shot. I'm sorry about the AOs and I haven't had one in over two months and despite the 2x4 tough love you and hubby Marcos have dished out I'm still calm and composed and LL still wants me out.

You know something else? I never had an affair or cheated on LL. I have been faithful, not even a revenge affair. You can put your 2x4s away.I won't be bothering y'all again, I'll contemplate my future; ya know I'm the one that was given the get out jail free card...

Thanks Neverguessed, you said something that really clicked. preesh...

L4TH, I'm sticking with my definition of LL continuing as a wayward, even if only in her mind. Why would that be?

- You did NOT perform a full exposure to put LL on notice before all of her family and associates that her wayward life was not to be acceptable, and the effects ON HER were to be awful.

- You did NOT that I can discover, ever institute a system of "just compensation" to you for her illicit activities.

- Together, it seems that UA time and EN attention toward each other were ignored entirely. Were there any EPs put in place?

In short, my friend, she got out of her situation cheaply, with no "What the hell was I thinking?" revelation. You are actually being done in by the "contrast effect" of the reality of having a husband with human faults and imperfections versus the "fantasy mate" of a "part-time, good-time" lover. Any OA you were to give vent to would reflect on you negatively as compared to POSOM! He NEVER had AOs! He was her ideal! In short, she never ended the affair in her mind, becoming the "illicit affair camel" that women are prone to.

And as far as she working to save the marriage, all that needs be said is: Our last session with Steve she had agreed to put the separation off but a few days later it's back on

You'll have proof or denial of my hypothesis soon enough. As this "separation" seems fated to proceed, keep us advised as to how soon LL supposedly "meets" someone "new".

You are actually being done in by the "contrast effect" of the reality of having a husband with human faults and imperfections versus the "fantasy mate" of a "part-time, good-time" lover. Any OA you were to give vent to would reflect on you negatively as compared to POSOM! He NEVER had AOs! He was her ideal! In short, she never ended the affair in her mind, becoming the "illicit affair camel" that women are prone to.


He was kind and gentle, a wonderful conversationalist.He admired her greatly and for who she was and expected nothing from her in return. He wrote poetry ,my attempts at that were "cheesy"...

Okay, there is more to it than just eliminating AOs.

I asked this earlier, and you didn't answer:


Steve Harley told me not to expect any praise merely for not being abusive.

Eliminating angry outbursts is just one of the many things Dr. Harley told you to do. It amazes me that you are so scared to go reread what Dr. Harley said to you that you have spend hundreds of extra dollars seeing Steve to avoid it. What are you afraid of?


Why haven't you done this? You are here saying "I've done one of the things I was supposed to do, and I don't get why she's still leaving me." Dr. Harley listed a whole bunch of things here for you to do:
* engage in enjoyable conversation
* join in recreational activities
* completely overcome angry outbursts
* learn to make decisions with her in mind

Why haven't you done these things?


She has a get out of jail free card, too, and is perfectly within her rights to leave you for abuse and neglect.

What are you thinking about the future? Are you likely to find a woman who doesn't need recreation, conversation, and thoughtfulfulness for her in your decisions?

How much did you spend for the advice here that you are ignoring? Dr. Harley has told you at every step that it was up to you. You didn't want to hear it, and if you continue in that direction, you will lose your marriage.

Don't spin this that it was caused by your wife. You bought the best marital advice money could buy, and you didn't want to take it.

What did Dr. Harley tell you to do? How did you do it?

It takes more than just eliminating the AOs for 2 months.

Yeah, you chose recovery. And you spent at least 10 of those months Lovebusting your wife and not doing what Dr. Harley told you to do to fill her lovebank. And you expect her to want to be around you when you've only eliminated AOs for 2 months? What else have you done? Did you do what Dr. Harley told you to do? Have you been spending 25-30 hours a week with her, meeting her intimate EN with NO lovebusters at all?

You gave her one, too, when you abused her for the majority of your recovery.

Dr. Harley would support her wanting a separation. I believe that is why you do not want to post to him again -- you didn't like what he had to say then, and you wouldn't like it now. You would rather post in the open forum, where you have a majority of the posters at a disadvantage. They can't read your posting history with Dr. Harley, and can't see the effort that your wife has put into this, nor can they see the advice that Dr. Harley has given to you.

You could've done this, too.
You could've out-shown OM, if you had done what Dr. Harley told you to do.
Instead, you held on to your anger, refused to change what Dr. Harley told you to change, and you pushed her into withdrawal.

lookin4thehandle, I hope you aren't buying this. NeverGuessed is relieving you of personal responsibility so you can feel better while you lose your marriage.

You are being done in because you aren't willing to do what it takes to save your marriage. Dr. Harley told you what to do. If you had done it, you would be receiving the affection and sex you are looking for by now.

But for some reason you are scared to even go back and read what he had to say.

I imagine Steve Harley did not tell you "Eliminating angry outbursts and then sit on your rump waiting for your wife to do the rest."

L4H,

Have you read markos threads? Just read the beginning of each and see were he (and prisca) have come from. They are trying to help you focus on your end goal and the path they know can work because they have taken it.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2310782&page=1

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...wflat&Main=158884&Number=2317774

No Marcos, we have not been following the policy of UA. In fact we really haven't adhered to that policy much this entire time. I have harped on this but come to find out; though it's a BIG DEAL one mustn't paint with too broad a brush concerning UA time. In fact if one half of the equation finds the UA time to not be enjoyable it's not exactly mandatory...this will be all I have to say on the matter of UA time so don't bother asking.

I have read that thread a lot. That's why I came back to it with my hat in my hand and apologised to the Dr. and why I set up appointments with Steve. Did I do everything right from that moment on? Heck no. I was hardheaded as can be at times, obtuse as well. Now everyone is tired. Very tired.

L4, you might have to accept that it is too little, too late. I can understand why you have angry outbursts, but surely you can also understand how it has pushed your wife away and caused her to give up? It seemed she was on board for awhile but isn't anymore. While her affair might have angered you to no end, there is no justification for angry outbursts.


It's mandatory if you want to be in love, though. There is no other way. The broad brush of UA time goes like this: THIS PROGRAM DOESN'T WORK WITHOUT THIS STEP.

Did you know this? No workee without it!

ML, you won't get an argument from me. I agree...

Even now, if the UA time and other stuff were added in, who is to say how she might feel? It takes more than eliminating angry outbursts; it takes all of these things, and the main reason women leave men is neglect. i.e., needs are not being met, and there is no time together. They need a confidante they can talk to about their problems in life. Not a man who gets upset when they bring up their problems.

Plenty of divorce and separation cases have been dropped when the reluctant spouse finally became willing to do what it takes to have a happy marriage.

And Dr. Harley has actually recommended to women in this wife's situation that, as a last resort, they file for divorce or separation, possibly to serve as a wakeup call to their husband.

One half of the equation -- meaning you? The thing is, many wives just CAN'T meet their husband's emotional needs the way the husband wants them met, until they are in love. Meaning the husband has to push past an awkward period where things are not quite right, and there is a learning process, and as he learns to meet her needs and his balance in her love bank rises and as she gets more practice, all of these things together render her more capable of fulfilling his needs and more enthusiastic about doing it.

Dr. Harley is harder on husbands because many times it falls to the husband to be the "pump primer" in marriage, the one who meets needs for awhile until his wife's hormones and brain chemistry catch up and suddenly she is able to meet his needs with delight.

So she offered affection and sex, as we can see in her posts, and it wasn't to your liking. That's very understandable. She had the willingness, but the desire and the passion weren't there, and so it came off as the wrong thing to you and you rejected her. But Dr. Harley explained to you how to create the passion in her that was lacking -- it was up to you! And she needed it! Before there was ever an affair she needed that, and after the affair she needed it just as much as ever, and if she had had that, the passion would have returned, and the need-meeting would have been wonderful.

I have seen many times in Prisca the thing that makes the most difference in how well and how often she meets my needs is the present state of her feelings about me -- and that depends on how long it has been since I engaged in love busters, and how well I've been meeting her needs (primarily talking to her about her daily problems and engaging in concrete acts of affection) recently. When I'm not receiving the affection and sex I need, I can beg and beg and beg (or demand and blow up), and no matter what, it does not render her capable of meeting my needs. But when she is in love with me, when she feels connected to me -- wow. She doesn't need Marriage Builders or questionnaires to tell her to be affectionate to me or how to do so.

FWW, willing to meet needs but not quite giving what the husband wants, angry husband, top needs of affection and sex ... that could be describing my marriage, or yours.

Dr. Harley gave you the information you need to turn it around. It sounds to me like you've been dismissing and finding excuses for a lot of what he had to say. Dismissed the UA time, dismissed rules about the enemies of good conversation. But the fact that you've finally eliminated the angry outbursts tells me that you have it in you to do the rest of it as well.

Dr. Harley told you how to make the UA time enjoyable: recreate the spark of passion in her. Many women just can't do this without that.


The thing men have, that women typically don't, is the ability to push forward just a little longer, meeting needs even when their own needs are not being met.

I would counter a divorce offer with an invitation to go out four times a week for four hours. And then I'd mostly sit there and chat about almost anything she wanted to talk about, gazing into her eyes. And I would bet anything that not long after this, provided there were no love busters and no dwelling on mistakes of the past, there'd be no more talk of divorce. And she'd be hanging on me in public, and jumping my bones in private.

I think it never worked because you never did this. Maybe you weren't ready to do it before, maybe you just didn't understand how important it was. Maybe you thought it was up to her, and didn't realize it was up to you.

If LifetimeLearner is still reading this, I hope she comes back and posts soon. Prisca and I have talked a lot the last few days about her, and we'd love to see you guys turn this around. It sounds like she's very much in the same situation as WPG on another thread.

She thanked you and Prisca for your support on her thread in SAA.

Really, WolfPackGirl?

One half of the equation -- meaning you?

Read LL's posting. She admits to being the one who disliked and eventually bailed on the UA time.

The UA time became something I didn't enjoy. It didn't start out that way, it developed to that.

Now get creative; the clock is ticking! Find some way to excuse her liability in this and blame it on L4TH!

For the rest of our studio audience, let's play Letter Scramble. Fill in the blanks with the remaining letters to discover the real reason for all this anguish:

ANSWER: W _ _ W A _ D M _ N _ S _ _

EXTRA LETTERS: Y I T E D R A

And she posted about that to Dr. Harley, and his response included nothing for her to do and stated that her husband needed to take the steps to restore her passion.

I'm just repeating myself here.


You know, it's not really me you're arguing with here, it's Dr. Harley.


That wasn't Dr. Harley's diagnosis at all.

A marriage is breaking up, and you're playing Wheel of Fortune?