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I'm not sure what to do. We have been separated for a few months now and even though the affair has died a year ago, we still can't get along.

The affair did completely taint her and she was really foggy, but when it died she never really snapped out of the my way or the highway, hypocritical, difficult to get along with attitude, which has existed to a lesser degree our entire marriage.

We tried some false recoveries, and I made a bunch of huge mistakes (that may cost us our family, if it was savable in the first place) like letting her come home too soon.

Now she is acting very independent and doesn't seem to want to show any affection towards me, is very critical, blaming me for things she does (projecting), unable to accept any criticism, pretty much the dish it out but can't take it type.

I tried to get her to do counseling with MB, but she didn't want to do that because she didn't like the logical approach. She is the if we are in love we will just feel it type. She did some IC but that guy just told her to follow her heart which made things worse. Thankfully she doesn't see him anymore.

She tends to procrastinate and rarely considers things down the road. She usually only deals with things in the moment so she won't address issues until that moment comes, and frequently she can't address issues without locking up and putting up an emotional barricade.

She doesn't have any friends anymore (except for the one friend which supported her though the affair, who now is using an adulterous relationship to 'escape' her husband, which my wife supports and justifies because her husband isn't a good guy, which is true), and she left the church 2 years ago and doesn't have any interest in going back.

She is also very good at hiding since she was seeing OM off and on our entire marriage and justified it because they didn't have sex (at least not until last summer when she finally stopped contact.)

At this point I have stopped talking to her except to take care of the children, and I am starting to suspect that she has borderline personality disorder or narcissism. I've never met anyone in my life that was so disconnected from reality and only able to see things her way.

It's like she pretended to be the perfect wife all of these years, hiding behind her image. Once she was exposed she stopped trying to have an image, left the church, started swearing, wants a boob job, seems to think porn is no big deal, and doesn't seem to want to do anything to meet my needs.

Now I'm separated in my own rental and she is filing for legal separation so she can force me to pay for our house (which she will keep), child support, and her college tuition.

My plan is to let her file for separation to keep things peaceful and try to get a better financial outcome then go into a dark plan B (she doesn't handle being cut off well, which is not surprising since she is the master of it) and see if she will grow out of this, but I seriously doubt it. After a few months I think I'll just divorce and move on.

What makes this so hard is that even though she was pretending and hiding she seemed really great for a long time and she is very pretty (which is one of my big emotional needs) so it's like she can deposit just enough to keep me hanging on which is very painful.

So what about tomorrow? Do I contact her to spend time with her on our anniversary or do I just pretend it doesn't exist anymore?

She wants me to come over and be together as a family but it's just more cake eating because she wants me to be kind to her while she avoids dealing with her own issues. If I go and take all of her judgments, support her in whatever she wants, and only return kindness then she is happy, as that aligns with her view that it's all my fault and that she is practically perfect in every way, but I just can't do it anymore. I'm going mad.

Thanks for any help you can send.
ak

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Originally Posted by ak1
I'm not sure what to do. We have been separated for a few months now and even though the affair has died a year ago, we still can't get along.

The affair did completely taint her and she was really foggy, but when it died she never really snapped out of the my way or the highway, hypocritical, difficult to get along with attitude, which has existed to a lesser degree our entire marriage.

We tried some false recoveries, and I made a bunch of huge mistakes (that may cost us our family, if it was savable in the first place) like letting her come home too soon.

Now she is acting very independent and doesn't seem to want to show any affection towards me, is very critical, blaming me for things she does (projecting), unable to accept any criticism, pretty much the dish it out but can't take it type.

I tried to get her to do counseling with MB, but she didn't want to do that because she didn't like the logical approach. She is the if we are in love we will just feel it type. She did some IC but that guy just told her to follow her heart which made things worse. Thankfully she doesn't see him anymore.

She tends to procrastinate and rarely considers things down the road. She usually only deals with things in the moment so she won't address issues until that moment comes, and frequently she can't address issues without locking up and putting up an emotional barricade.

She doesn't have any friends anymore (except for the one friend which supported her though the affair, who now is using an adulterous relationship to 'escape' her husband, which my wife supports and justifies because her husband isn't a good guy, which is true), and she left the church 2 years ago and doesn't have any interest in going back.

She is also very good at hiding since she was seeing OM off and on our entire marriage and justified it because they didn't have sex (at least not until last summer when she finally stopped contact.)

At this point I have stopped talking to her except to take care of the children, and I am starting to suspect that she has borderline personality disorder or narcissism. I've never met anyone in my life that was so disconnected from reality and only able to see things her way.

It's like she pretended to be the perfect wife all of these years, hiding behind her image. Once she was exposed she stopped trying to have an image, left the church, started swearing, wants a boob job, seems to think porn is no big deal, and doesn't seem to want to do anything to meet my needs.

Now I'm separated in my own rental and she is filing for legal separation so she can force me to pay for our house (which she will keep), child support, and her college tuition.

My plan is to let her file for separation to keep things peaceful and try to get a better financial outcome then go into a dark plan B (she doesn't handle being cut off well, which is not surprising since she is the master of it) and see if she will grow out of this, but I seriously doubt it. After a few months I think I'll just divorce and move on.

What makes this so hard is that even though she was pretending and hiding she seemed really great for a long time and she is very pretty (which is one of my big emotional needs) so it's like she can deposit just enough to keep me hanging on which is very painful.

So what about tomorrow? Do I contact her to spend time with her on our anniversary or do I just pretend it doesn't exist anymore?

She wants me to come over and be together as a family but it's just more cake eating because she wants me to be kind to her while she avoids dealing with her own issues. If I go and take all of her judgments, support her in whatever she wants, and only return kindness then she is happy, as that aligns with her view that it's all my fault and that she is practically perfect in every way, but I just can't do it anymore. I'm going mad.

Thanks for any help you can send.
ak
I think you've got some explaining to do. Your story seems to have changed radically since you last posted here.


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How so? I'll try and explain.

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Whoops - I apologise profusely, ak1. I clicked your name and ended up reading someone else's backstory - no wonder it did not make sense!

I'm still trying to catch up with your story, but I wanted to drop by and apologise, so I'm not at the end yet. Could you please sum up and tell me why your wife left? What reason did she give? Did she ever get back with OM?


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Your last post, in February 2011, didn't say anything about her leaving, so there is a chunk of the story missing. When and why did she leave, and why did she come back?

Originally Posted by ak1 on February 9 2011
No contact since mayish, apparently OMW found all of the emails which was very descriptive and damaging. I was told that the emails were the only contact, then later after I dug a bit WW revealed that they were actually seeing each other.

WW and I talked a bit more tonight about going through marriage builders and she basically said that she doesn't have the emotional energy to do it right now and doesn't want to commit to doing it later. She also said that she doesn't want to divorce because of our children so basically the marriage is back to where it was when OM got married and there was an extended period of no contact.

She said that our marriage was like living a lie and neither of us want to fake it anymore, but that we don't really have a choice because of our children.

So basically she isn't over OM and is pissed that she is stuck with me. It seems obvious that she will split the second that the kids are out of the house.

I told her that we didn't have to live this way and that marriage builders works, but she didn't really want to hear it. I told her that we have nothing to loose and the whole world to gain, but for now I guess it's easier to be angry and bitter ( told you she was stubborn.) She is the type that won't take the easy way out if it means that she would be wrong.

As long as NC is in place and she isn't checking on him I think it's probably better for me to stop talking about him because I am being the trigger. Perhaps it would be much easier to convenience her to do marriage builders when I'm not dragging out all the hurt and pain again.

I will say though that an unhappy marriage is prime for another affair, but I don't think she would do that at this point because the pain of this one is still fresh on everyone's mind and because I think that she values this pile of dung enough to not replace him.

Part of me wants to leave and be done with it. I love this girl and want to keep our family together, but the emotional abuse is great and its starting to feel like divorce would be the easier path to take.


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Ak, if she has not committed to the marriage in 2 years, then it is unlikely she ever will. Surely you can see this is hopeless? Why not file for divorce and get on with your life? Take back control of your life.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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ML, I agree, just hard to get there. I'll decide it's over then she will act really sweet and do something really thoughtful or write an email owning her mistakes.

That lasts a few days, then it's right back to blaming me for everything.

I'll give an example so that it's clear what I'm talking about:

Last week she and DS10 were fighting and yelling at each other. They both want to suck me in but I was staying pretty quiet trying to figure out what to do because it doesn't help when I get upset too. When I had a plan I addressed DS10 and told him that he is out of control. He has to get his emotions under control as reacting isn't going to work and will just continue the yelling cycle. I told him that he needed to learn to calm himself down and learn to respond in obedience and focus on being productive in how he deals with situations as his current habit of lashing back isn't going to get him anywhere in life.

DS10 (who is extremely bright) turns to me, calms down, focuses and then says, "Dad, I'm trying, but I'm only 10. Why can't mom stop the cycle and stop yelling at me?"

I told him that we weren't talking about mom and that his job is to control his own emotions and respond in a kind and productive way.

After that my wife was so angry at me she was distant for 3 days. When I couldn't figure out why she was distant I finally asked and she told me it was because I shouldn't have been so nice to DS10, I should have put the smack down instead. I tried to suggest that yelling at DS10 just puts him in reaction mode, but she shut me out and wouldn't listen.

Basically she demands respect from the children, and when she doesn't get it, gets really upset. If I calmly teach the children, they are much more responsive, but then she is all the more angry because they view me as the good guy and she is impossible.

So basically, it's my fault for not backing her up, and making her look bad even though my actions did help DS10 understand what is going on and helped him regain control and ultimately obedience for the rest of the day.

At this point I'm not sure I'm dealing with typical wayward fog, but rather something much more difficult. My wife only seems to be happy when she is getting her way. If I do everything her way and never have any criticism (regardless if they are I statements or feel statements) then we are ok, but I can only take so much before I get frustrated with the judgement and criticism she gives to me. If I get on her case to change or deal with something things get really bad, so lately I have been making requests (please do this, please don't do this) without you statements or examples, and they seem to fall on deaf ears.

So we go through this cycle, then 3 days later she is all sweet and helps me clean up my place and we go to dinner together as a family.

So your right, I think it's hopeless, but then next week she will do something nice, and I'll have hope again, then she will crush it again. At the same time she is in the same boat, she views me as being nice as hopeful, but if I don't do something her way or ask her to do something different then we are enemies again.

Perhaps it's time for me to just stop talking to her for good and go through the pain of divorce and move on. This has been over 2 years now and even though I appreciate the may opertunities to grow (be more gentle, more observant, not get worked up, etc) I think it's time to move on.

Thoughts?


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You can see that she does just enough to keep you on her rope. Throws you a crumb every now and again. Why don't you accept the truth and move forward accordingly? You can't lose if you file for divorce.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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I just talked to DS12 on his cell phone. I guess my wife is having her only friend and the friends affair partner over for dinner. So my kids are over in my house watching these people play family. This entire thing makes me sick. And the sad part is that I'm not going to be able to completely get away from it as long as we have kids and she acts this way.

I was really hoping things would change, but I guess not. frown

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Originally Posted by ak1
I just talked to DS12 on his cell phone. I guess my wife is having her only friend and the friends affair partner over for dinner. So my kids are over in my house watching these people play family. This entire thing makes me sick. And the sad part is that I'm not going to be able to completely get away from it as long as we have kids and she acts this way.

I was really hoping things would change, but I guess not. frown

You can get away to a large degree if you divorce her and go into Plan B. You will feel much better in a few weeks if you do that. Why hang around and allow yourself to be punished and used?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by ak1
I was really hoping things would change, but I guess not. frown

Hope is not a plan. frown


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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So I developed a plan. I sent an email telling her I want a divorce and suddenly she is interested in talking to me again. I talked this over with my IC and then set some very firm boundaries. She responded and complied so I took this as a sign that things may be salvageable.

We started getting along really well and I even spent the night when she wrapped her arms around me and started acting like my sweet loving wife. We had 4 great days, but then she did some things that I really didn't like. We went hiking and when DS10 was being a brat and not wanting to hike she just took off and kept hiking.

I HATE when she does this because she forces me to choose between her and DS10 when she is being a jerk. My options are to join her in alienating him or stay behind and try to help him which upsets her and make him dislike her even more because I stay and help and she runs off. I stayed and talked to him for a minute then made him a walking stick and we started hiking again. We never caught up to WW which was frustrating.

Later when I tried to address this with her she just shut me down. I'm starting to think she is a narcissist. Here are the signs:

1. She only has one friend. She has alienated the rest of them because they didn't approve of her lifestyle change or she felt challenged by them.

2. She is unable to accept criticism. Her solution is to isolate herself and alienate anyone that has an issue with her.

3. She was seeing OM off and on the entire length of our marriage. She held onto him the corner of her heart since before we were married. She is very good at hiding.

4. She left the church, all in a second. One week she was teaching Sunday school the next week she had no intention of ever returning. It's almost like she was in church to feel good about her self and it had nothing to do with loving Christ.

5. She has stopped talking to my family altogether and refuses to relate to them. She also hates her father and works hard at avoiding him.

6. She has taught her family to avoid any uncomfortable subjects with her. They know her well and won't broach any hard subjects with her unless they feel it's worth getting iced for a few weeks over.

I really want this to be over, but then she will make me feel like I'm on the top of the world and suck me back in.

The only thing I have left is strong boundaries so I drafted this letter to her:

Quote
Dear Wife,

You know that I love you very much and care a lot about you. I'm deeply saddened that we can't seem to make our relationship work.

I really want to have a romantic and intimate relationship with you, but I have come to the conclusion that parting ways would be easier on both of us if we can't be completely happy together.

Right now I'm struggling to see how happiness is even possible because we frequently run into a situation where I upset you, you alienate me, then I withdrawal.

The entire thing is stupid really because I end up doing the thing that I wish you wouldn't do. I end up avoiding you to protect myself while I'm upset that you are doing the same. I wish we could stay connected through our conflict and work together, but it doesn't seem to work out that way very often.

The catalyst appears to be me trying to communicate to you when I am hurt or offended. Obviously, I'm looking for you to respond with empathy and validation, but somehow, through our dynamic, it usually ends up in withdrawal.

Two days ago I asked you how I can communicate to you in ways that aren't upsetting to you, and what I heard you say was not to bring it up at all because you didn't want to hear it. This will never work for me because I don't feel cared for or important to you, instead I feel used and abused.

At this point we are at a standstill. You are often critical of me when I don't do something you want, look after your concerns, or act in ways that cause you to feel uncared for. I completely understand where you are coming from, you want me to love you the way you feel loved and you want me to stop doing the things that hurt you. I want to do the same with you but I don't feel like I can without getting blown off or shut out.

There are little things you say or do which feel like an attack to me. You will say, "are you paying attention to what is going on here" or you will roll your eyes at me signalling that you are upset, while at the same time end the conversation.

I want to communicate with you that I would much rather you say, "Can you help me out with this" or politely say that you would rather talk about the issue later, because I don't like being attacked or disrespected, but attempts to communicate this usually get blocked.

This is a major dilemma for me. I feel trapped between a rock and a hard place. It's as if my options are to never criticize you, live with things that hurt, and accept your criticism or move on without you.

I know in my heart that you really care for me and that you aren't trying to hurt me, but this is my reality. This is how I perceive your words and actions.

I don't see how it's possible to ever be happy together if we aren't able to communicate to each other the things that hurt and know that the other person will do their best to address the issue. Somehow I need to hear what you are saying and do my part to protect you from the hurt, and you need to do the same with me.

In order for our relationship to progress past this point I will need us to work out a system where we can hear and accept each others feedback without anger or withdrawal. I will do my part to hear you and change the way I treat you, and I will require you to do the same. If I am not listening to you please use the words, 'I need you to listen and understand', and I will clue in on that and listen. When we are done working through things that bother you I will probably have my own issues to bring to you and I will want you to listen as well. This isn't a comeback or blame shifting, it's both of us willing to hear and understand each other, which I believe is a requirement for us to move forward.

Until we have this figured out I'm going to keep my distance. It's just too painful to have a couple of nice evenings cuddling and loving each other, with you stroking my hair, and looking into my eyes softly telling me you love me, then the next day receive hurtful comments and actions that kick start our dynamic that ends in complete withdrawal of emotional connection and affection.

Also, I am completely miserable living separated. I want to share my life with someone, have our children around, and be part of a team and a family. I will agree to separation with you to allow you to adopt <foster child> as long as you are willing to work through the issues above (in weekly counseling) while we are waiting for the adoption to be final and have a plan to live together again, otherwise I would like to file for divorce. I'm no longer interested in waiting to see if something happens between us when we aren't actively working toward a solution. Our relationship needs to be on the path to reconciliation, caring, understanding, forgiving, or it needs to be on the path to divorce because camping out here in the middle is not working for me.

Your Husband,
ak1

Does this letter look appropriate to you experts? I suspect she will blow it off or tell me how wrong I am, if she does then that seems to confirm to me that I'll never be happy with her leaving me no option but to divorce.

Before I get asked let me explain the foster child deal. We have been fostering a little girl since she was 9mo, she is 4.5 now. She is very much our daughter, but my wife refused to adopt her with me because she didn't want to split her time with me and because I was concerned about adopting right before a divorce which has significant emotional and fiscal consequences.

What is amazing to me is that she basically choose DD4 over our own two sons. They can detect this and frequently have issue with my wife and DD4. It seems pretty obvious to everyone I've talked to that this isn't healthy, but she doesn't see it and even though OCS has tried to remove DD4 3 times, DD's lawyer has the judge convinced that she needs to stay because she is well bonded to my wife.

The law states that she can't adopt on her own unless we are divorced, married and living together, separated, or single. If we are married and living together then it's very likely that OCS will be able to take DD4 because they would be able to convince the judge that we aren't stable because we have been separated once before, so that just leaves divorce or separation as my wife values DD4 way more than anyone else in the family.

The real irony is that she is well bonded to me too, but apparently neither DD's lawyer or the judge care. Another irony is that the lawyer and judge don't seem to care how this affects our sons.

As I type this the little voice inside me says RUN!!! But that is hard to do because I do love my wife, my kids need a stable family, and saying goodbye to my wife would also end my relationship with DD4. It's a complete mess. Help!

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So what Plan are you in? Plan A but living apart?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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I don't believe you have any boundaries at all and I don't believe you are in the least bit serious. If you are, then throw the letter away, quit playing games and file for divorce.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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ML,

Ok, educate me please. My love bank is close to empty so I assume I shut it down so that she can't meet my needs any longer, stop talking to her, go to plan B and start working through the divorce?

Do I tell her what is going on or just have her served? She will almost certainly get really sweet and nice to keep me on the hook, what do I do then? Ignore her? I do want my wife back and she knows exactly how to manipulate me, so I'm guessing I stay away.

Do I look for signs that she has changed or do I just plow through as fast as I can?

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Just accept that it is over and get divorced. It really is over. You know how she rolls and you know she does just barely enough to keep you around. That is not a marriage. She can't manipulate you without your permission, my friend.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Sent an email to the lawyer. The paper work is almost done.


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