Sorry man_learning -- didn't mean to suggest you reacted that way. Just that maybe your wife might be worried you will.

TFM, it was a good point to make! My experience with waywards is that they are never eager to tell the truth because they like to avoid the consequences. They are more concerned about facing an unpleasant situation than they are in making compensation to their victim. Typically caused by the same lack of empathy that allowed them to have an affair. Telling the full truth, however, is one of the first conditions of recovery.

"TFM, it was a good point to make! My experience with waywards is that they are never eager to tell the truth because they like to avoid the consequences. They are more concerned about facing an unpleasant situation than they are in making compensation to their victim. Typically caused by the same lack of empathy that allowed them to have an affair. Telling the full truth, however, is one of the first conditions of recovery."

Absolutely! Before we found MB, I lied to my husband about things like traffic tickets and how much those shoes REALLY cost. Once he stopped his angry outbursts we started discussing stuff ahead of time, there was no need to hide anything. It was kind of a miracle.

I now have him convinced I'm a very prudent and skillful shoe shopper!

You just told my story! Would you agree that the speed limit is too low in most facist police states?

Man_learning,

I feel that the burden is more on BHs because the WWs are so reluctant to come clean, and part of the reason WWs can't come clean is that there is no way to make their behavior acceptable in the eyes of society. They are sl**s and other unkind words, I'm not sure there are positive terms for women who cheat.

Men who cheat "get lucky" and on some level might even feel pride in what they have done and the conquests they have made. I don't personally agree with those ideas, but I think they are commonplace.

Men who cheat are studs, players, playboys, words with at least a sheen of positivity.

God Bless
Gamma

"You just told my story! Would you agree that the speed limit is too low in most facist police states?"

I just got a ticket in a small town known for its police. I inched through it at 25 miles an hour then saw a block or so up a 35 mile an hour sign so I sped up.

The police officer told me it is 35 miles an hour AFTER the sign and gave me a ticket for 37 in a 25.

I remained calm and respectful while wondering if the top of my head might literally blow off!

Gamma, can't do the quote deal but you might be onto something -- maybe Man_learning could assure his wife she can get her self respect back IF she does what he needs, if that's what he wants.

I am glad that most women over the age of 14 have a little more snap than that. Allowing public approval to drive our actions is not an excuse to avoid telling the truth. Women are not unaccountable children, after all, and have just as much ability to tell the truth as men. The problem I see is that many BHs won't hold them accountable and lead their marriage into recovery because they are so afraid to rock the boat. They lived marriages of capitulation and those same poor marital habits ruin their recovery.

Melody,

Women are not unaccountable children, after all, and have just as much ability to tell the truth as men

I agree, and by telling the truth, women in the long run seem to enjoy a much greater sense of relief than men who come clean.

The flip side of that statement is that women who do not come clean bear a larger burden of guilt which diminishes the quality of their marriage for years upon years.

God Bless
Gamma

Agree with every word.

A great clip on the fog.
Radio clip on the Fog

No sorry needed, I know and appreciate you and others for taking the time to advise me and share your knowledge.

If you read through my thread, you will probably notice that I have been very willing to accept my responsibility for contributing to the conditions that made my W sustainable to the OM's advances. (I had thought my layoff had a lot to do with it but later learned the A started a long time before my layoff)

Any way, very shortly after learning about the affair, I was very angry and did not act as well as I should have. I called her a b##ch that day. And I pressured her very hard in the first few days to get some EPs in place, and during that time I did make it clear that IMO she had a choice, end the A and NC or keep the A and I would div her, seek the house and the kids, raise the A as an issue in the Div which would mean everyone would learn about it during the div trial. She recently expressed anger toward me for how I handled that. At the time, I thought those were natural consequences of her choice to have and continue A. I also thought she needed some reality and to know that I had the strength and determination to do what I said.

A day or two later I pressured her to give me access to her cell phone, and became angry when she said should would let me see it and then immediately turned her back with it and appeared to be deleting texts from it (destruction of evidence!!). At that point I told her she needed to move out and I began to put some of her items on our front lawn. (This was some exposure, at least to the neighbors) Destruction of evidence right in front of me felt insulting and disrespectful, and it made me quite angry, but I now know I was wrong for doing taking that action.

Since that day, I have greatly eliminated LB. But, I am not perfect and when she has been abusive to me (yelling hostile and belittling me), I have spoken back to her harshly a few times. When she does calm down and starts to tell me about the A, I am very quiet and very calm. I know a lot about the A because of my investigation, but I do not know it all. I remind her that even though I know a lot, I am still here and very interested in R. I also repeatedly remind I just want honesty and openness and have repeatedly proven I can be very respectful even when she tells me the hard things. I know, and I think she really knows, I can move on from this if she works with me, and I tell her that I can not do it alone.

I am also continuing to improve myself and as part of that tomorrow I start an new job long term temp job that may lead to a permanent position with good benefits. This helps me to meet her need for fainacial security.

Mel, I do not know if we are in recovery and if we are, I agree that it has a lot of holes.

Not in response to truth, I am great about hearing the truth, but I suggest that lies will push me toward div.

What are you doing to answer this question (about NC) and plug up the holes? This really needs to happen before you continue wasting your time trying to figure out her (likely actively wayward) mindset.

Get this answered so that you can definitively move in the right direction. Otherwise, you're going to burn out quickly while riding on a wayward's rollercoaster.

I'm guessing that she doesn't believe that to be true...especially if she's still carrying on with the affair.

I am pushing for more EPs, using all that I have in place, and keeping my eyes wide open. I think she will come with me to my next IC meeting. The last one was helpful to some extent. I am also being the best husband, father, man I can be.

Still, it's sometimes feels like two small steps forward and 1 and half back.

I also continue to learn about what I need to do.

Do you have a keylogger on the computer? Spyware on her cell?

I'm wondering if you have apologized yet for your behavior in throwing your wife's clothes and mattress (????) in the front yard.

I'm wondering if you understand that behavior was abusive.

Do you?

I'm wondering if you have an inkling of how terrifying that was for your wife and DAUGHTER who is now imprinted with the impression that Angry Men Get Physical and Must Be Appeased.

I know -- I lived it with my own father. And he never hit anyone but watch out for thrown objects. That sticks-- what are you going to DO about that? I can tell you from personal experience that when your DAUGHTER ends up in an abusive relationship you just need to go look in the mirror to understand why.

It seems to me your wife has very good reason to be afraid of your temper. You say you only have angry outbursts at lies but when she tells the truth you are all sweetness and light.

I don't believe you. If it isn't credible to me, it is not credible to her.

You have some work to do -- do you agree?

Do you?

Do you understand yet that you have NO control over your wife's behavior? As in ZERO.

What have you DONE to clean up your side of the street after your appalling behavior?

Nothing is changing because you aren't changing.

For me, a meaningful apology has three parts:

1. A sincere expression of remorse -- can't fake that one.
2. A statement indicating you understand the impact your behavior had and/or want to know what impact your behavior had.
3. A description of what steps you have decided to take to ensure the behavior is not repeated -- "next time I feel myself getting angry, I will leave the situation for twenty minutes."

I suggest you get to it.

LEAD!

No I doubt have either in place.

We also saw an MC three times after I had found the solid proof of the affair. There we also addressed this event and how to better communicate. We both were unhappy with that MC and stopped seeing him. She has not agreed to see a new one, but she has come with me once to see my IC and I think she may come to my next meeting. I am willing to go with her to see her IC, but as yet she does not want that to happen.

If things do not improve, and I have the locks changed, would that also constitute "abuse"?

Personally I don't think your actions were that abusive. You had just found out your wife was a cheater and a liar. She's been running roughshod over you for a long time, so throwing her clothes on the lawn was probably a moment where she realized the tables were turning.

I can't remember where you're at in terms of exposure but I'd be telling everyone under the sun about her dirty deeds. She needs to see that she's not going to carry on with her entitled, selfish, destructive behavior without consequences.

I had an EA and am a former wayward myself. I needed my husband to help put a stop to my madness.