Do you have snooping in place?

I would put spyware on his phone.

You need to be spending at least 15 UA time a week.

Doro,

There is so much wrong in here, I almost don't know where to begin. If BOTH of you want a strong marriage,

1) Commit to spending a minimum of 15 hours/week in undivided attention. Stick to it.

2) Become each other's favorite recreational companion. Do things that you both enjoy. Use the recreational companionship questionnaire to identify things you both like to do. Give up the other time-consuming activities that don't deposit into each other's lovebanks.

3) The job that requires overnights away is an invitation for problems. We have plenty of civilian pilots and military in H's and my family. ALL of them have had affairs. All of them slid into it with conversations that became personal. Your H did the right thing by deleting phone number. But, he is taking a huge risk eating alone with women co-workers.

AM

Keep an eye on this.

Typically, you'd only delete a text if

1. Your mailbox was getting full or
2. You didn't want someone else to see it.

To then volunteer a reason for deleting it is a red flag. See! I'm being honest about being dishonest! Honest!

x 2


Also, liars have flip-flopped powers of recall; they either remember more details than they normally would, or less details than they normally would.

Also here is a good radio clip of Dr. Harley explaining the different kinds of liars.
Radio clip on the different kinds of liars

I'm sort of just replying to all in general, b/c it's hard to do the quote thing on my kindle.

Snooping- i've got acess to all his email/facebook/computerstuff. I regularly look athis phone. But we both have iphones, so as far as I know, you can't put spyware on that.

I KNOW that we need the 15hrs/week. So when he's telling me "we'd only be able to hang out for 3 hours after you get home for work" then I say, 3hours x 3 days is 9 hours which is a lot of time. I feel like I have to push and push and push for that time.

As for the RC.... Steve told us (mostly telling H) that if we both don't enjoy something to pick something else to do. H didn't (and still doesn't like that). The thing is, I LIKE climbing/mtn biking/skiing/etc. I actually enjoy a lot of that stuff. I just don't love it as much as H does. And I'm not as good at it. H will tell me that it would SO much more enjoyable for him, if I was better at something, b/c then we can do harder stuff, and it will be more excercise for him.

Armymama- the 'give up other time-consumming activities that don't desposit into each other's lovebanks'. Unfortunately, I don't think that will ever happen. I hesitate to even bring that up. Just judging from past decisions and actions, if he felt he had to choose b/w me and those things, the choice would probably not be me. I asked him what they talk about when they're flying, and if he talks about us. And he says that he never says anything negative- just maybe talking about us in a positive light or things we've done. and that it's "hard to censor everything and not talk about certain stuff" I said, "yeah, it is hard" But that still makes me uneasy.

And I didn't like it that he deleted the text message without showing me. he NEVER deletes txt messages. It's probably true that he didn't want the number. I think he's being careful, and after I've expressed displeeasure/concern about some of this stuff, he seems to be taking it to heart.

The easy part of all this will be to make him see how important not going to breakfast/not talking personally with any females. That won't be too difficult to get him to pick up. The RC part and

Got cut off...

The RC part and him putting our marriage and me before all of those activities is the hard part.

I'm sure part of him thinks, "I'm not the one who cheated, why do I have to do all these things/ be careful".

Oh...and on a RC note, I've recently been having a lot more pain in my leg (broken ankle and surgery back in January) I've found out within the last week that my broken leg apparently never healed. I'm waiting to have an official appt with surgeon right now, but most likely I'm going to need complete reconstruction of my ankle. So this whole summer when he's been getting mad and frustrated at me for being slow or not being active enough, I've been trying my best to meet his ENs and have been running on a broken leg...

I may never be able to be super active again.

You'll have to talk about that elephant in the room sometime. If you're afraid that you'll run him off or that he'll leave, then that is the very reason that you should be having these conversations.

Walking on eggshells is not fun and no way to go through a marriage or life.



...and that's how it starts.

Y'all are going to have to make some decisions and lifestyle changes if this is going to turn around. Whether these decisions are tough or hard depends entirely on what you want out of this marriage.

Have you looked at this?
I-phone help

Northwood8900 - I know. We've somewhat talked about the elephant. But to be honest, I don't know how to go about it. If everything is supposed to be POJA, and you're not supposed to make ultimatums and/or selfish demands, how do you go about saying, "I must know that I am more important than those activities". The first time we ran into this, was when he refused to move with me when I went to grad school b/c there were no mountains there. At the time, we were just dating, but I didn't want to give an ultimatum b/c I think I knew what the answer would be. Then we were married, and I still didn't push it.

And now I still don't know what I'm supposed to do. Unfortunately, I still believe that those things are more important to him than his marriage and/or me.

"And that's how it starts"

EXACTLY! That's the only thing I think when he says he doesn't even remember the girls name who he had breakfast with or that he doesn't say anything bad about me/us while they're flying. I think to my situation. The first time the ONLY reason the guy had my number was b/c we were talking about MY husband and mtn biking and the guy was letting my husband use his mtn bike when he came to visit me. And this is me, all stupid "no big deal, just getting a bike for the husband".

Reply ▼ Delete More

How about...

I feel [alone/left out/sad] when we are not together. Sometimes I feel that those activities take priority over me.


He'll either admit it's a problem or get defensive and deflect. If the former, then you guys have an opportunity for a good conversation. If the latter, just disengage.

He's not stupid, Doro. He knows what he is doing and seems to be doing it quite well: having lots of independent behavior while getting you to, somehow, accept responsibility for it and not bother him about it.

Northwood- so if it's the latter, I disengage...then what? Our conversations generally go like you suggested. I say something to the order of 'I'm sad/hurt/etc, I think we need to spend more time together' and then he usually gets defensive and talks about 'do I think he shouldn't be able to see his friends anymore and he needs to see his friends, etc"

The ironic thing is this particular situation last week- it's not that I didn't think he shouldn't go hang out with his friends while I was at work. I thought that was a GREAT time for him to go do stuff. I just wanted him at home by 7pm both days, so we could hang out. So when he said he'd cancel the overnight trip, I was so grateful, and I kept telling him that I was so excited to see him, that I was sorry I pushed for him to cancel it, asking him if he's mad about it. He said he wasn't mad, and that he has to make time for us. Then when he didn't come home till 830 & 1030 those two nights, I was mostly hurt and a little mad. And I feel sort of stupid. Like I fell for it or something.

Brings me back to the time when we lived in seperate states, and we were talking on the phone, and I'm crying and crying telling him our marriage isn't doing well (this is pre-A), and begging him to come visit me on his days off. But he didn't want to cancel his mountain bike trip, it was his friend's birthday afterall.

So I disengage....and then what?

"[ignoring the accusations] Well, it really just boils down to what our priorties are, doesn't it, and I've told you what mine are."

Shrug your shoulders, adding "Well, that's it. I don't know what else to say" and then walk away.

Doro, do you remember when you first showed up here all fogged out? And you blamed the As on the problems in your marriage? And I was bashing you because I said you can always leave, rather than have an affair, if your spouse refuses to care for you?

Well you still have that option. Its better to leave a marriage where you come second than endure it indefinitely. Or risk the temptation of becoming wayward to get the UA hours and ENs you're missing out on.


This really bothers me:




He doesn't want POJA. He doesn't want your vote to have as much weight as his. You'll be in for a lifetime of misery as an underling who has no say.

He's even told you he plans to leave you holding the baby while he continues putting his IB first. That'll drain your lovebank superfast and divorce will become an inevitability. You won't be able to prevent it.

Nip this in the bud now. The more you walk on egg shells, the more likely it is that recovery won't get done and BH will slide on this until the marriage is trashed.

You have to be VERY clear and unashamed that you value the M more than you do his whims to have RC without you. That failure to have EPs with members of the OS is also a dealbreaker.

Don't demand. Don't yell. But be vocal. And assertive. Your staying in the marriage is something you want to do, but ultimately you may have to leave to prevent things getting worse. That is not a threat, it's just a fact.


I think your recovery efforts have been tremendous and that's why I know you can start being firm on recovery and stop walking on egg shells.

A spouse suffering from failure to POJA is suffering abuse. Your H demands your obedience and that you be unhappy in order to make him happier than you and this is very serious. A spouse suffering this who isn't in recovery would be told to Plan A for six months then separate and not communicate with their spouse in Plan B until they agree to be caring in a marriage.

Separation is honourable when it is being done for the good of the marriage. But risky. That's why he gets six months of Plan A goodies first. So he can see how a reasonable spouse who is willing to POJA is like.

(And your hobbling all over the place is not POJA. Stop it and start insisting on mutual fun)

The six months' timeframe is prob not applicable in recovery. I would speak to SH (alone) about it and ask how long you should give him to join you in POJA before his refusing to is seen as a problem. As Dr H says, you'd be amazed how fast one year becomes 20.

As a BS he prob has a lower lovebank than an ordinary spouse and could need more time to care as much about your feelings as his own (his comment was very telling). On the flip side he may feel more entitled to take the michael and you need an even firmer approach! That one is above my pay grade, so ask Steve.

I'm so sorry, DoroM. That really blows.

Recovery takes time....but you are not really in recovery, yet, if you aren't following MB.

Can I ask you a question. Does this marriage meet your ENs? If it never changed from the way it is now, how would you feel about that?

Have you actually sat down and POJAd something step by step? Then chosen something on your list of brainstormed solutions that you BOTH like?

What about Dr Hs tip of practicing with groceries? It doesn't go in the cart unless you both POJA each item.

INDIE-
I do remember when I showed up here. I don't want to be second, but I guess I feel selfish or guilty about demanding to be first. I never wanted to be "that" girl. But now after learning all this stuff, I realize that I have to be that girl if I want a happy, healthy marriage.

I read all you guys responses, and then I think, "they're being pretty harsh on him," and then I want to defend him. I think that maybe I'm asking too much. Our conversations about marriage being more important than his climbing never go well. He says 'that's part of who he is, and I knew it when I married him'. I guess what I DIDN'T know when I married, was how that was going to have to change.

I don't demand or yell...not really the type. I'm not sure how to be vocal and assertive without him saying, "you cheated on me, screw this"

I will make an appt with steve solo. We haven't sat down and POJAd something step by step...it seems like a lot of the time when we're talking aboutthisstuff heor I areatwork,and we'reon the phone. The grocery thing wouldn't be that hard. We usually agree on most things, and even though he doesn't love it when I buy lots of cookies we'll compromise and I'll pick one terrible-no-good-for-you item, instead of 3... As for the running and stuff- that was technically POJA'd I wanted to go run/climb/etc, so we'd go, but he'd get frustrated about me being slow or only wanting to go a certain distance. I probably overdid it for that reason.

He just started reading Love Busters. Took him about 4-5 months to finish HNHN.

On a brighter note, although I do indeed have to have surgery, surgeon said I should heal completely and be able to be back to my normal activity some day. Scheduled the surgery for tuesday morning, so I'm about to have 2 weeks off of work, and then I'll go back to work on a wheelie thingee-ma-jigger, b/c I can't walk for 6 weeks.

I don't know if I have it in me to bring up all this stuff right now, part of it's selfish b/c we have the weekend off together and I want to enjoy it. I guess I'll keep Plan A-ing and plan on talking to steve next week sometime.

Kerala-I'm following MB....my H I guess, not so much all the time. not sure what that means. Asfor your questions "Does this marriage meet your Ens? if it never changed form the way it is now, how would you feel about that?"

ummmmm.....that shouldn't be so hard to answer, should it? Some of my EN's are met. I don't think I would feel very good if it never changed from the way it's at. I've discovered that Family Comittment moved from #4 on my list to #1. He doesn't understand how I can have that need as we don't have a 'family', so I have to tell him that WE are the family. But as things are right now, I would not trust him to have children with him. I know he doesn't trust me b/c I cheated on him, but I don't trust him to put the family/me first before all these other things (and be happy about it).

That question makes me really sad. I really truly love him. I want to stay married to him, and I want to have children with him. It just makes me sad. He says he wants to stay married and that he loves me.

YEAH!!!!



Compromise is bad in a marriage. It basically means Ill put up with something I don't want if you do the same for me. If he doesn't like the cookies you can't buy em during the POJA practice because each item is POJAd separately (as in you both have to be enthusiastic about EACH item)


Do it! And do some step by step POJA too. Practice makes perfect.



Ah but your feelings re fears of selfishness are not as important as your plan. Which would you rather do? Give in to fears and continue walking on eggshells? Or sweetly but firmly say 'no' whenever you are truly unenthusiastic? Remember the Plan A spouse is not a martyr. They are a reasonable spouse who is simply going above and beyond. And they expect a return at some point. And say so. Nicely.

I'm sorry that my question made you sad.

I'm sure it's nice when he says those things but...words don't mean that much. I think you know that but I know it's a hard thing to process.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying he doesn't love you. I'm saying that it's not enough for him to feel it and to say it. He has to LIVE it.

Just to say one thing on his behalf. He may be right that you married him knowing his (slavish) devotion to these recreational activities. Some people aren't willing to give that stuff up. Ever. And they manage to lead perfectly tolerable lives and to find partners who will join them in that life vision. But, of course, it means the marriage must accommodate lots of other things. Not the MB way.

(((DoroM)))