I would change your number and ask your DS20 that you don't want to hear anything about her.

Your healing is what's important.

That's fair, and it is reasonable to communicate to her that you would like her to stop trying to contact you. BTDT .

What I am emphasizing though is to NOT relay to her anything emotional, such as the explanation that continued contact keeps you from healing. Because that is guaranteed to lead to more contact from her.

Just tell her that you want a clean break, with no contact between the two of you. And if she says she wants to stay friends, remember the best mantra ever - "find yourself a friend you haven't slept with" .

If she still does not respect your desire for no contact, just go into unilateral no contact - she'll stop her efforts sooner or later.

AGG

If I'm trying to quit drinking, and someone else offers me drinks from time to time, wouldn't it be better for me to politely ask the other person not to offer me drinks anymore? Otherwise, the temptation might become too great, and I might accept.

Sorry, BrainHurts & AGG, I didn't see your most recent replies. Thanks for the explanation. That helps.

I don't think I'll change my number. I have too many people I'm in contact with that would be negatively affected. I think I'll take AGG's advice and if she doesn't respect my request, I'll do the best I can to ignore her, unilateral NC. Thanks.

Not quite, because the "drink" in my example is analogous to you talking to your exGF.. So as soon as you start talking to her about your healing, pain, etc, i.e. anything other than saying simple and firmly "please don't contact me", then you are already taking that drink .

AGG

The more I think about this, the more conflicted I become.

My gut was bothering me, and I couldn't explain it, and you're right, it took being apart to understand, and it didn't take but a couple of weeks.

What I'm struggling with is that I feel like I did meet Ms. Right, and I didn't need time to think about it. What I needed time to think about was her older son. I'm sorry to use the term "package" again because I remember that offending someone (it was my GF's term to begin with), but if I think of her as an inseparable package, then she's not Ms. Right, but if I think of her as just her, then she is Ms. Right. She had so many qualities I want in a relationship. We were really good together.

What I see now in hindsight is that I was in the classic difficult situation I've heard Dr. Harley describe: a man dating (or married to) a woman whose oldest child is male. In those situations, it's common for the son to have an intrinsic protectiveness towards his mother that manifests itself as subconscious disruption of the relationship. I've heard and read about that scenario, and I now realize I was in exactly that situation. I wish there was a way to deal with it.

I know I can't go back to her because if I did, I'm sure I would experience that "force-fitting" feeling again, but it's frustrating to know that I had something very valuable that I wasn't able to keep. It would be a different story if I felt there was some incompatibility between the two of us. But there wasn't.

I don't think he's doing it for me. Even if he was, I'd have a hard time letting him know what you advise because I don't want to be done.

Pretty much the same as the comment just prior to this one: I don't want to be done, I still have hope.

Even though I wrote earlier that I don't want her to contact me because it revives memories and delays healing, there's a part of me that's glad she texted me. That part of me wants to call her up and have lunch with her. The thought of not seeing her anymore makes me sad. I want to see her again.

The funny (not haha) thing about this is, if she hadn't contacted me, I'd probably be ok. But she has, and now I miss her. I want to see her again.

KL, only you know if someone is Ms. Right for you, certainly none of us here can tell you from where we are. What I am sensing from you is that you deeply loved this woman, and you two were compatible.. what I also sense is that she may be Ms. Right at the wrong time. I have met those women too during my dating - they seemed like Ms. Rights, but the timing was off.

I tried to rationalize how things might improve with time - maybe after the kids grew up and left (that would have been a long time for me at the time, as they were only about 8 years old ), or maybe some other event, a job change, etc... But I never succeeded. I sense that that is where you are - you are happy with the lady, but you cannot find happiness with her son in the picture.

I don't know what to tell you about that. To me, that would make her Ms. Wrong, no matter how much of a Ms. Right she might despite the issue. The "issue" is likely to still be there, even years down the road. But who knows, maybe it won't. You never know in life.

I will remind you of what you said just 10 days ago:


I can tell that you are missing her, and I am sorry you're hurting, bud.. Just be careful not to re-establish contact or the relationship for the wrong reasons....

AGG

How have you mended the relationships that were caused by your choices?

The issue I find in this situation with you KL is your lack of discussion concerning your own children. There is a long standing issue that hasn't been addressed by you concerning cleaning up your side of the fence.

You are so focused on this ex-girlfriend that it is distracting you from really cleaning up your side of the fence.

Why not stop focusing on what was or wasn't with your ex-girlfriend and begin exploring how your better habits can be implemented by those who where harmed by your old habits, i.e. your children and/or your ex-wife.

They only reason I still get a sense of by your posts is because your lack of discussion concerning your first marriage, your children, and your history.

It reminds me of wayward who comes to the board to figure how to save their affair marriage, when the real problem is the fact they left their first marriage on emotion not logic. Granted you are not a wayward, and I am not accusing you of that. I am simply saying you it seems like you are still using emotion to make very adult decisions. Logic is what needs to be your lead ... not emotion. Emotions change and can be very treacherous to you as a person.

There is still a HUGE mess left by you. I understand you didn't leave your ex-wife with infidelity, but you did date this new women very quickly before fixing what was first broke.

1) What bad habits did you build in your first marriage that can be fixed today by understanding and implementing Lovebusters?

The relationship you had with your ex-girlfriend was just a shell built off the back of your bad marriage. Stop focusing on what went wrong with it, and instead understand how you can better yourself from your first marriage. That was a true representation of you. This other relationship reflects a fantasy rebound that should be dead and buried because your true problems lie well before that.

Thanks AGG, just before seeing your post, I was going to add that I'm not planning on seeing her or contacting her because I know that wouldn't be good for the long-term; I was just writing down what I was feeling.

You're exactly right about her being Ms. Right at the wrong time. Logically, you're also right about that making her Ms. Wrong, but hearts sometimes don't like to listen to logic.

Yes, I did write that I felt relief from the pressure of the relationship. That was true. Now that it's been a few weeks, and I've forgotten about the pressure, it's harder to ignore what we had. But it's the memory of that pressure that prompted me to write in my previous post that I know I can't go back to her.

This whole issue boils down to a conflict between what my heart wants and what my brain is telling me I can't have. ..sigh.....

This is all a normal part of the grieving process after breakup with someone who you truly cared about... Also a perfect example of why it is so harmful to maintain any sort of contact .

AGG

Hi GodGiveMeStrength, I have done a lot of cleaning up my side of the fence, including the reasons for the failure of my marriage, and how to help my kids heal. I've been in counseling for several years working on that. I'm satisfied with my progress there and don't feel a need to post about that. Not that I couldn't, it's just that I don't need help with that.

You're right about my emotions having a strong influence on me. I've been that way for a long time, but I am getting better. In fact, just yesterday I was thinking about this very thing while walking my dogs. Not too long ago I used to think that if I started falling in love with someone, I was helpless to stop it. Now that I'm most of the way through Buyers, Renters & Freeloaders, I feel a real difference inside that says, "I could stop it if I wanted to." That might not sound like much progress to you, but to me, it is real progress.

Yes, that's exactly what my focus is right now. I want to learn about great relationships, learn what it is exactly that makes them great. And then look at myself and see where I fall short and what I can do to improve myself so that I'll be a good relationship partner when the time is right.

I know you believe the relationship I had with my exGF was not wholesome. I think its problem was as AGG put it, that the timing wasn't right. She and I were very compatible in many MB categories. I'm not really focusing on what went wrong with it; this latest bit is just a dip in the road that I'll get past and that was prompted by some interaction from her. Thanks for your concern.

One more thought before the weekend. I do a lot of thinking while walking my dogs, and today was no different as I walked them after work. I thought about a statement I made earlier today:

One time in counseling, we were discussing the concept of being centered, and I asked how you know when you're centered. The answer: when your heart and your mind are in agreement.

Today, I thought of this in terms of the POJA. In order to be centered, both my heart and my mind have to be in enthusiastic agreement. My heart says my exGF was Ms. Right, but my mind says she was not. Since my heart and mind don't agree, the relationship is not right. The only way it can be right is if both my mind and my heart enthusiastically agree on it.

I think that's a wise observation!

AGG

This is not correct when in a marriage. In a marriage, Dr. Harley discusses "Logic" i.e. the mind is what is needed to drive. You use his tools POJA, EN meeting, and PORH to build the heart. That is why leaving a marriage and getting into a new relationship does not solve any problems. Instead it creates more problems because the logic is not followed and the heart is driven by emotions.

Dr. Harley has repeatedly stated on his radio program his tools can build love in anyone, i.e. if you married someone you are not in love with then how do you make the relationship work? You need meet for 15+ hours/week and use PORH and POJA.

That is why I keep bringing you back to your first marriage. Your girlfriend may have been right for you, yet the logic is she is all wrong for you. The reason is because you can fall in love with anyone, it is sustaining that relationship that is key ... it can only be sustained if you use logic.

Your first marriage is key to understanding what is truly wrong within you. I would suspect your relationship with your ex-GF was built on some lies and deceit, hence your inability to use PORH. The red flags in that relationship were alarming, yet you are using that relationship to understand who you are.

Go back to your marriage, and fully grasp the what went wrong. Wasn't it a 20 year marriage? There are many many aspects to it that have your fingerprints of failure ... what were they and what bad habits did you build from them?

Focusing on the what went wrong with ex-GF will do you no good because that relationship was built off the bad habits of your first marriage. Only when you can see your 50% and all the failings will you fully grasp why ex-GF was and will never be logical for you.

You often pick the same person you left because you have habits (bad and good) and familiarity that dictate your choices. I suspect ex-GF wasn't too far off from your first wife.

The key is to understand the logic in how you failed PORH and POJA in your first marriage. YOu can only discover this by your habits and your behavior. Read Lovebusters and understand how they become your habits and how they prevent one from fully utilizing PORH and POJA. Once you understand how they have stifled your relationships, begin daily to change them. Live a very honest life....embrace POJA on little things such as with your children, with your friends.

Finally repair the damage done to your children. Your bad habits in your first marriage instilled bad habits in them. What can you do to make amends for your choices?

The mere fact you are focusing on this ex-GF (a woman you dated while still married) suggests you do not fully grasp the damage caused to your children and their understanding of healthy relationships. Repair this first and once this part of recovery if complete ... you will be fully ready to jump into a relationship with a woman who will be that gem. You will possess new, better habits that will shine for all to see.

If my mind and my heart are not in agreement about a marriage relationship (or any relationship for that matter), then something is wrong. My mind and heart need to be aligned in order for me to be satisfied with a relationship.

This might be something we'll have to agree to disagree on, but I don't think there is something "truly wrong" within me.

There were no lies and deceit. Could you please give me the benefit of the doubt? If not, then please tell me what lies and deceit you suspect our relationship was built on.

Another thing we may have to simply disagree on, but I think I am able to practice RH.

The relationship happened, and it did affect me, so from that point I am using it to help me understand, just as I would any other relationship. But I'm also using other tools to understand and work on myself, in particular MB resources.

Probably the only way to convince you that I have done that is to have invited you to be a fly on the wall in my counselor's office the past three years. I don't know what else to tell you.

I know what went wrong, and I'm trying to move on. I'm not focusing on it.

She was completely different than my ex-wife, not even close.

I agree with you; learning MB principles has given me clarity on what I did wrong.

If I didn't state this earlier, I have and still do.

You dated while still married ... hence you self deceived your core values. You went to counseling while engaging in a relationship that was built of the foundation of your failed marriage. I am trying to point out to you the flawed logic in this. You started your relationship with this ex-GF with self lies told to yourself. I am simply asking you to invest in you by understanding how this has lead you down a terrible path (you and your kids).

The love you had for this woman was in itself a fantasy, because she loved a man who didn't stand for values. I am trying to point out how your emotions wrapped up in this woman are based on a form of your self-lies. The dishonesty that was in you when you began that relationship is what you built your love on ... hence that love was truly an illusion. When you can see this woman for who she truly is ... then and only then can you build love based on respect, honesty, and your core values. Anyone who dates another while married does not live an honest life ... I don't care how you want to spin it. Because both are being dishonest on the vows taken for that marriage.

You mentioned you stayed in your marriage four additional (miserable years) for your kids ... again self deception at its finest.

Finally your son is still close to your ex-GF (the woman you committed adultery with (violated your own self and vows) and you discuss you have repaired the damage done? Is this the kind of female role model you want for him? A woman who dates a married man (after 20 years of marriage)...You want me to believe you were fully honest with this woman from the beginning on why your marriage failed. Did you start the relationship with this woman blaming your cheating ex-wife as to why you are divorced? What excuses did you have for the failure of your marriage, and were they 100% truthful?

I am only giving you guidance based on your "non-unique" situation and how Dr. Harley views those who date while married. Your posts have some self-deception in them. That is why I keep posting to you. That is why you don't like what I have to say. The true dishonesty lies within yourself.

GGMS, I'm a little baffled. If someone is practising MB principles today, then why do they need to fine comb over and over a time when they did not? Dr H specifically preaches AGAINST navel gazing and says the right feelings will follow the right actions.

I would very much like to hear what future steps along the MB path would you prescribe, if you dont mind...



This is spot on advice, when people are dating while married, you may have missed it, but KL isnt.

I have been following his thread from the beginning when he came here for his break-up with this girlfriend of 3 years, whom he just broke up with (one or two months ago).

He started dating her when he was married to his first wife (20 year I believe he was married and stated he only stayed the last four years due to his kids).

He has been on here about how he felt this ex-GF was right for him in all the ways except it was just wrong timing. I am trying to demonstrate it was never right to begin with ... timing or not.

I am trying to show him that she was never right for him because their relationship started while he was married to his wife. I am trying to point out the feelings he built with this women were based off a system with no foundation.

I am trying to point out from his posts how I can see his own self-deception when it comes to the feelings he had for this woman. I suggested he read Lovebusters.

That is why I am posting how I am posting. I have been trying to show him the relationship he had with this ex-GF was never based on anything real ... it was based on his failings from his first marriage.

I am hoping he will recognize all the of this ex-GF and realize his true change needs to start from the failings of his first marriage, not this ex-GF relationship that he started while still married to his first wife.

Maybe I am missing something ... this is what I am seeing from his posts. It is hard to even advise him on ex-GF, her sons, or their relationship when this relationship never even had a foundation to start. I hope he will not use this foundationless relationship to look at himself because that would do him a serious disservice.

Earlier in this thread, we (collective we) went around a few times on the subject of dating while still married. I think everyone agreed it's not smart to date while married. But we saw that some people feel that it is morally wrong, period, no exceptions; and others feel that there are exceptions, such as when legally separated. So I don't know why you're bringing this up again:

I did not deceive my core values. My core values are not the same as yours. This seems to be the basis on which you make the rest of your assessments of lies, dishonesty, and deception. As long as you assume that my core values should be the same as yours, you will probably continue to feel the way you do. If you would accept that people can have different core values, your position might be different.

It has nothing to do with religion or anything like that.

It has to do with the lies you told yourself that it was okay to date this woman while married, without properly healing yourself.

I could give a rats behind about the moral aspect of this.

I have been pointing out to you on all your threads that the relationship you had with this woman was so foundationless it makes no sense wasting your time on fixing what went wrong with it.

It makes the most sense to figure out what went wrong with marriage #1, and then make better choices from there.

You are so focused on the relationship with ex-GF that I have been trying to point out to you relentlessly that this relationship was never the problem because your problems started well before this.

I have been trying relentlessly to show you if you look past this very damaged relationship with ex-GF, you will see how you can do sooooo much better than this woman.

I felt Lovebusters would be a good way to show you how a truly PORH outlook will give you much better results in your life overall and with women you date.

For you to keep thinking this ex-GF was good people is what I feel is hurting you because she was never good dating material to begin with, and I hoped you see yourself worth more than she would ever be able to offer you.

She may be a good person, but how many lies did you have to tell yourself to convince yourself this woman had your best interest at heart? That is what I am hoping you will evaluate. Were you ever in denial to yourself concerning that relationship?