Spirited conversation everyone.

Here's the email to me on my birthday in its entirety:

Happy Birthday. Think of you often. All My Best.


My wife was NOT copied.

Not snarky.

Not snarky - but really, not appropriate for another woman to comment to you that she "thinks of you often," ESPECIALLY given the circumstances. It would be too easy for the two of you to bond over your shared, traumatic experience.

In general a WW starts a war with the OMW when she starts an affair with wining the OM from his BW.

When an agressor(WW) goes to war or fights with their victim just because the starter of the fight does not want to battle any more does not mean the victim has to stop. As in Indiana Jones, once the Ark was open it was to late to close it.

"No one is saying she is playing a victim. And no - it's not enough compensation to stop the affair, apologize, etc... but she can literally do nothing more for the OMW."


Yes can do no more. What a WW does for the BW will always be inadequate.


"Are you saying she should subject herself to berating from the woman? What would you propose Mrs. MSS to do?"


No.

Things get that bad then a RO has to be taken out against the Reverse Bunny Boiler that the WW created.


"It's Mrs. MSS' job - along with MSS - to rebuild THEIR lives, not the OMW's life. Their work is done there. A repentant FWW such as Mrs. MSS will no doubt carry the guilt for the rest of her life. She does not need continued contact with OMW in order for her to "pay for her sins."


She does not need contact with the OMW. Better off with NC.
She can only pay for the sins she did against her BH.
The sins against the OMW/BW no WW will have the ability to repay.

It should not happen to a WW once the affair is over and done.
But if a BW was to break NC every 5 to 10 years to give a dig at the FWW well it's too bad that the FWW gets upset.

This is the possible consequences of having an affair.

Every WW knows the potential consequences that will happen if they cross the line and have an affair.

Those WW cross the line because they decide that the risk is worth it. Their position is let the consequences come, no problem, a piece of cake is how those cake eaters think at that time.

Now the consequences come home roost. So I say let the cake eaters eat their cake that they baked.

The point is that the WW started this fight.
Then they want to end it because the fight no longer suits them.

The WW was selfish at the start, and at the end.

On MB the need for truth is mentioned repeatedly.

MSS why not take the time to be truthful with the OMW. Send her a letter stating that you would understand if she thought her WH was having an affair again and she needed for you to confirm that your WW was not involved again.

However for you to heal you need NC with her. That NC is just important for both BS's as it is for the WS's. Constant affair reminders happen on there own. She does not need to add to what happens from time to time.

That you want her to heal as well so this is why with this letter I want you to have the tools to heal that I have been using. So included with this letter is I have given you as my gift to your healing these two books: Surviving An Affair, and His Needs Her Needs, both books have been written by Dr Harley.

Please read these books and respect my need for NC.

You're diverting the question, TR. This is not a question of OMW's need, or her right to seek it. This is about the MSS couple's desire not to be imposed upon by her. Less a question of "Free Speech" and more an issue of "Freedom from Listening". Let's reduce this to a simple decision, shall we? I wrote:

She does, however, have the expectation of non-interference in her marriage from a third-party

Since MSS supports his FWW in this matter, if it were to be rendered:

They do, however, have the expectation of non-interference in their marriage from a third-party

would you agree? Yes, or No?

FWIW: I sent a letter to Chief Justice Roberts on the "Freedom of Speech" versus the implicit "Freedom From Listening" during the debate about the wack-job fundamentalists disturbing servicemen's funerals to promote their anti-gay agenda. The Chief Justice did not chose to respond, thereby, I maintain, effectively recognizing my position!

I have been thinking this all along.

Think you need to stay away from her, she is toxic in many ways. Not a bad person, just wallowing in her misery, and I can attest to just how dangerous that can be.

TR, also may I point out that Mikes's WW is not the poster on this thread, Mike, who is the BS, is. He is the one we are advising. We are not advising his FWW or the OMW, we are advising Mike on what HE needs to do for his OWN recovery (which, subsequently, is parallel to his FWW's recovery). It is in HIS best interest to not have contact with the OMW, when she is contacting him in a toxic way, or even in a friendly way (for what are the motives here?).

I don't think, because his W betrayed the OMW in this way, it means that MIKE should have to carry the burden of taking a hit from OMW every few years, because that's the bed his wife made.

He is the one we are advising, his personal and marital recovery, and it is in the best interest of both to not have continued triggers and/or toxic contact with OMW.

"You're diverting the question, TR. This is not a question of OMW's need, or her right to seek it. This is about the MSS couple's desire not to be imposed upon by her."


They are within their rights for NC


"Less a question of "Free Speech" and more an issue of "Freedom from Listening". Let's reduce this to a simple decision, shall we? I wrote:

She does, however, have the expectation of non-interference in her marriage from a third-party

Since MSS supports his FWW in this matter, if it were to be rendered:

They do, however, have the expectation of non-interference in their marriage from a third-party

would you agree? Yes, or No?"

[/quote]


No.


"Are you saying she should subject herself to berating from the woman? What would you propose Mrs. MSS to do?"


No.

Things get that bad then a RO has to be taken out against the Reverse Bunny Boiler that the WW created.

This is the possible consequences of having an affair.

Every WW knows the potential consequences that will happen if they cross the line and have an affair.

Those WW cross the line because they decide that the risk is worth it. Their position is let the consequences come, no problem, a piece of cake is how those cake eaters think at that time.

Now the consequences come home roost. So I say let the cake eaters eat their cake that they baked.

The point is that the WW started this fight.
Then they want to end it because the fight no longer suits them.

The WW was selfish at the start, and at the end.


Again MSSWW as any WW started this fight with the OMW/BW.

Just because it no longer suits the WW to be at war it does not have to suit the OMW/BW to sit down have an armistice day and sign a peace treaty with the WW.

That is the consequences of starting a war. All WW know the consequences of having an affair.

These WW say Consequences, what consequences, I don't need no stinkin' consequences, I'm not afraid of no consequences, I am not going to pay any stinkin' consequences.

Then when the affair is over they cry poor me this is so unfair to have to pay the consequences.

When a WW affair caused the OMW/BW to become a reverse bunny boiler she does not get to cry boo hoo, poor me. After all I stopped banging your WH so leave me alone.

Her actions unleashed the BW emotions.

The Hatfields and the Mckoys fought from 1863-1891. For 28 years emotions were released that were powerful enough to kill 12 and wound at least 10. It took legal action to bring it to a stop.

I have no sympathy for a WW, no matter how big an F she has earned to put in front of her WW title when her actions created a reverse bunny boiler.

When a WW is tough enough to pull her big girl pants down for the OM she needs to be tough enough to not get her big girl pants tied up in a knot because the BW breaks NC.

If the BW is making things that bad then the WW gets a restraining order. So if this WW gets that upset with breaks in NC she has to toughen up or go to court.

Being upset and playing victim of the BW is not going to cut it, or accomplish putting an end to this matter.

This WW wants and end to the drama then get an RO. Put up or shut up.

"TR, also may I point out that Mikes's WW is not the poster on this thread, Mike, who is the BS, is."


I know that.

But I will point out that he mentioned how his WW is reacting to breaks in NC from the OMW. MSS put the subject on the table. So I'm responding to his WW actions.


"He is the one we are advising. We are not advising his FWW or the OMW, we are advising Mike on what HE needs to do for his OWN recovery (which, subsequently, is parallel to his FWW's recovery). It is in HIS best interest to not have contact with the OMW, when she is contacting him in a toxic way, or even in a friendly way (for what are the motives here?)."


Do you read what I post? I said there should be NC. He needs to tell his WW that the OMW reactions are because of all that MSSWW put in motion. It's the consequences or her actions demanding that his WW address them for a solution.


"I don't think, because his W betrayed the OMW in this way, it means that MIKE should have to carry the burden of taking a hit from OMW every few years, because that's the bed his wife made."


It's called collateral damages. His WW chose an affair, MSS chose recovery. Well in recovery there is always the chance of having to deal with a reverse bunny boiler.


"He is the one we are advising, his personal and marital recovery, and it is in the best interest of both to not have continued triggers and/or toxic contact with OMW."


I agreed before and do so now.

If NC is that important for MSS and MSSWW then they need to get a restraining order. If they refuse to do so then they will have to put up with the OMW breaking NC for the rest of their lives. Put up or shut up.

They do, however, have the expectation of non-interference in their marriage from a third-party. Would you agree? Yes, or No?"

No.

Well then, TR, I think that's where we're going to have to leave it. As I read your post and position, then, you support retaliation and revenge indefinitely, at the sole discretion and desire of the injured party. ("An eye for an eye, for an eye, for an eye...")

So "road rage" is to be encouraged, right? ("He cut me off! I will have satisfaction!") And of course in your example of the Hatfield/McCoy feud, you fail to see the implausibility of citing the irrational retaliatory impulses of a set of inbred, usually semi-intoxicated, hillbillies as your paradigm?

Okay.

There was a Doonebury strip a few years ago in which a UN official was discussing with a Balkan soldier the need to work with a colleague from neighboring province.

Replied that soldier, "We cannot do that! His people attacked our village, slaughtered our men, raped our women, and kidnapped our children!"

The UN official gasped, "Oh, my god! When did THAT happen?"

"In August, 1372, on a Tuesday!"

Are you of Balkan ancestry, TR?

I do not encourage road rage or affairrage.

You chose to ignore that MSSWW started this war.

You chose to ignore that once someone choses to cross the line and they choses to ignore that their victim may chose to cross the line and escalate the situation. Can not cry foul. They started the mess. A WW defense of I don't have to behave though you must does not work.

I do not support retailiation. What I do say it can be expected for some BS to react in ways that are even illegal. It's collateral damage that can happen. Possiblility and legality do not have to match up.

There have been threads here, not for a while, where the BH got violent with the OM. Those actions were a possiblity, they did happen, and yet they were illegal.

Same as when a BH in Texas came home and saw his WW and OM going at "it" in OM pickup truck. WW saw BH approaching, screamed rape, jumped out of the truck, the OM tore butt out of there driving down the road to get away while the bullet's the BH shot tore through the OM killing him. This story got sorted out in court. The BH wife was held responsible for the OM death because of her false claim of rape and sent. WW was convicted and sent to jail.

You chose to ignore my citing of the Hatfields and the McCoys story. Another fight. The courts were needed to end that as well just as in the Texas story.

So my point as demonstrated in many a Three Stooges Movies is when you throw a pie you can get hit back worse then you threw.

MSSWW chose to cross the line. She was not coerce to have an affair. She said I don't care about consequences.

MSSWW can't complain I gave up pie throwing. I just washed my hair and that OMW is getting me dirty again.

The phrase put up or shut up. Means that MSSWW has the options of two actions to take. Man up and ignore OMW breaks in NC. Go the legal route to court and file an RO against the OMW.

She does not have the moral right to expect that the OMW should not come back looking to cause prolems for her because that is the possible outcome of an affair. Past affair stories have shown the many illegal beatings and murders that happened as a consequence of an affair. Does not make those actions legal. Though with the amount of times they have happened makes them happening again possible. Just the way many a BW have gone after the WW does not make it legal but a possibility.

MSSWW had to have this knowledge pre affair. Stories of this type are in the media al the time. The woman that tampered with the parachute of her rival, she sky dived to her death, the BS that drove over the WS several times.

All she has is the legal right to ignore OMW or go to court for a RO.

MSSWW as any other WW has no right morally to complain that the BW won't go NC. They, the WW's by being the first to cross the line, broke the line, removing the line would of kept NC between them. Just as if they were cast in a Three Stooges movie and got to throw the first pie. They knew they were going to get hit with more then they threw. They said I don't care. Saying and doing are not the same.

Remind me never to beat you to a parking space that you believe is rightfully "yours". Or if I do so, get out of my vehicle firing first! No reason to wait around to see what your idea of what "collateral damage" you should be entitled to inflict!

Do you not see that the balancing of what is a rational response to stimuli is lacking in your treatment? If OMW were to say, burn down the MSS house, or (and this one hurts) actually harm one of their children, you would blithely say, "Well these things happen!"?

Mrs MSS and OM have not had illicit contact in - what? - eighteen months? You burden OMW with no need to calibrate her life to what has occurred to her even yet?

We're never going to align on this issue, which I would frame as the personal responsibility of people (in this particular, OMW) to own and control their own responses and behaviors. I'll give you the last response, TR, for my own amusement, and not reply.

Mike - Sorry for the extended tj.

"Do you not see that the balancing of what is a rational response to stimuli is lacking in your treatment? If OMW were to say, burn down the MSS house, or (and this one hurts) actually harm one of their children, you would blithely say, "Well these things happen!"?"

Blithely, no, because that word to me means these things are justified if to happen. To state these things happen is stating fact not advocating them. I did not advocate when the woman in Texas falsely cried rape and her BH shot the OM dead as he was driving away. But I will say he was not the first OM to be killed by a BH. And no one can guarantee that it will be the last time a BH kills an OM.

But how come you never address that MSSWW knew things could go this way before she had here affair?

"Mrs MSS and OM have not had illicit contact in - what? - eighteen months?"

There is no time limit for a BW to seek out for what she feels.

"You burden OMW with no need to calibrate her life to what has occurred to her even yet?"

This makes no sense to me.

"We're never going to align on this issue, which I would frame as the personal responsibility of people (in this particular, OMW) to own and control their own responses and behaviors. I'll give you the last response, TR, for my own amusement, and not reply."

You, I, MSSWW, are not to put limits on how the OWN reacts.
You, refuse to acknowledge that there is a wide range of actions that a BW can take.

There is no normal action for a BW to take. The only normal action is the range that others have taken before her unless she does something never done before. From ignoring the OW to killing. I don't advocate any illegal response. Most BW may chose one option because it is what they chose to do. Because most may chose one response does not make it normal. It only makes it average.

If what the OMW does is harmful and there is a law to stop this then MSS and MSSWW should address this issue in the courts.

If MSS ans MSSWW feel they are being harmed by the OMW then they need to get an RO. If not then there is no point in them complaining about the OMW. For they won't do legally what has to be done to stop it.

The way you twist thihgs is that you can't tell someone that blows off a finger with a firework it was their fault. You want to blame the match maker, the fire work company, the fire work store.

You can't grasp MSSWW brought the OMW into her life. The same as the firework victim brought the firework into their life.

The store, nor the firework company did enter old 9 finger's life. The OMW did not enter MSSWW life.

Good fences make good neighbors. When a WW tears down the fence she may not like what comes into her yard. She does not even have to like what comes into her yard. If WW dislikes it that much then she has to go to court and get a new fence(RO).

But I don't want to hear a FWW complain about the bother she has to go through now. Her actions took away her right to complain but not to take legal action for a RO.

When a WW complains about the BW it makes me wonder how much does she realize the level of damage she did to the BW.

If a WW needs NC with the BW there is no need to speak/complain about the BW breaking NC. The WW would show her class by being quiet about this and get a RO.

Because as soon as a WW complains about the BW all she is trying to vilify the BW and make herself a victim. If a WW had class she would not say anything negative about the BW except to her husband and get a RO.

I sorry hearing a WW go boo hoo that mean BW do you know what she is doing now...... does not make the WW worthy of sympathy.
Remember the WW forced herself into the BW life first.

We have a bicycle trail my W and I used to ride together all the time a long time ago. Its winds thru a public park that at 7am is quite abandoned. Ive been riding regularly as part of my excercise thing I started a year ago. She's been joining me on occasion.

Not the most observant one, she didnt notice the backpack I was wearing yesterday morning. I put a blanket, muffins, and some mimosas I put into one of those squeezy bottles cylists have on their bikes into the backpack. And flowers.

The fresh, cool September morning air. The smell of the trees. We pulled over into a secluded area of the park. We talked. We had our breakfast. We made out like teenagers. She cried. She apologized for the stain on our marriage and thanked me, again, for giving her the chance for mornings like that.

After a month of less that stellar adherence to the 'dont bring up the A' rule, we got a refresher on why we got marriage in the first place.

Neil Diamond wrote a song about it and I concur with its sentiment, September Morns are something to enjoy. Look up the lyrics if you dont know the tune.

PS. Despite the desire and opportunity, we didnt give in to public lewdness, thank you very much!! With all the cell phone cameras, the possibility of our tushes beings plastered on the internet precluded that notion.

Sounds like a GREAT morning, Mike! Good for you!

Unfortunately, where I'm at - we have to wait until late Oct or Nov to get a good, crisp morning.

From another thread:

The most common ethical question he was asked about over the years concerned a �duty to report.� That is, you find out a friend�s spouse is having an extramarital affair. A college roommate is cheating by downloading papers from the Internet.

Do you tell?

In terms of the friend, he said, it depends on whether you�re getting a strong message that the friend wants to know. If not, be silent, he said.

I am a big fan of the originator of that thread. He and I both suffer at the knowledge that our wives were able to stay in an extra marital relationship for a VLT. His underlying anger reminds me of mine. And, I too put our situation in a different basket from ONS or EA or what have you. Even knowing that MB veterans shoot down this thought at every chance it doesnt change my agreement to this.

The topic of that thread is too heady for my city college education so I didnt chime in on it.

Duty to report is what grabbed me? Pre-dday I had a buddy in an affair and we were close with his wife. I knew the bimbo he was cheating with too. Now its very interesting to me that my wife (who herself was in the midst of an affair) never said a word to my buddy's wife as I certainly told my wife of it. I mentioned this to my wife a couple of times after dday that we actually had many conversations about my buddy's cheating and how terrible it was and how it will someday explode (as it did and they are now divorced) and my wife simply agreed and stayed in the conversation. Certainly another topic from the point.

Duty to report? You betcha. I hardly enjoy what I used to think was normal guy talk about ladies we see on the ballfield or around town. Im going to report cheating to friends or wives of friends first chance.

Even though we are 2 Days of Atonement from her dday, this years D of A got to my wife. With my daughter clinging to her she told me it took all of her might not to start crying during the service this year when we got to the part where they list possible sins committed.

I asked her why this year and not last. She didnt know except maybe she was still in shock last year and numb during services.

She said she cannot believe just how many things she needed forgiveness for besides the most obvious. I told her I forgave her, the big guy upstairs forgives her, and she'll have to figure out how to forgive herself.

Everybody has at least one of those stories...

The only one I really have is actually parallel to dealing with my own W, and was a coworker.


As far as friends go, one of my good friends decided way back when to get way too drunk and place his hands on his wife. I took her from the house, and told him to put his [censored] in jail and take him for all he's got.

She didn't. She went bi and started cheating, and then went back. And he used the guilt to try to arrange an open marriage.

Yeah... we don't talk much any more...

Of the four, fall is by far my favorite season. Not even close.

The cooler air starts to make the days bearable and breathing non-air conditioned air as I sleep seems to do well by me. The trees turn colors that make me happy and the fall holidays are excellent. The harvest brings great apples and corn and with football on the tv, I cant think of a better portion of the year. You get to wear sweaters and sweatshirts and light jackets which are all things I like. All seems right in the world in the fall.

The downside is this ever diminishing daylight as days get shorter. Its a downer in an otherwise perfect setting. Ive been fighting some depression lately. Cant tie it to the loss of daylight savings time, but its a depression I feel coming on. Its been coming on for days, if not weeks.

Ive tried stepping up UA which I have wrote about recently but nothing seems to be working. Im hesitant about going back on medication as Im not a big on that stuff. I dont want to be a martyr but popping pills is not for me.

Im thinking about some real bad stuff again. Getting so many bad images flying thru my head its like day 1 after dday again. I have this trapped feeling that defined year 1 where because of my desire NOT to hurt my innocent kids by leaving the situation Im stuck here. Then i factor in how leaving would not eliminate ANY of those images and the internal mental battles ensue.

What I hate most are the ups and downs Ive been dealing with for almost 18 months. I used to call it being flaky. I used to have it altogether. Now Im a wishy washy mess evidently stuck in a bad place not of my creating. Im getting tired of swallowing my anger in place of keeping a sound homefront.

I told my wife Im thinking of spending some time at my mother's house to clear my head. Im afraid the only thing that will do it scare my kids whose happiness has been center to my living since 5/8/11. Ive thrown myself on the grenade for them. They are worth it.

There were no AOs. Sure, I sent an email telling her about my depression which was less than cordial. But, I had no other way to tell her whats in my head. I told her she made this bed BUT she does not have to live in it forever. She's done as well as anyone in her position to move us passed this. Its not her, its me. Im having difficulty with the sheer length of time she gave herself to him. And, how easy it became to live that life.

How I must have been completely non-important to her to 1) have sex with him, but 2) to invite him and his family into our home a million times. I cannot get passed that.

Having great SF and tons UA is awesome. But it doesnt remove the things in my head.