AS far as the bowling date. We didn't go bowling, we just ate a dinner but he was on his phone a lot checking on that one patient with the surgery that didn't go well and getting other calls.

"Well see that is just it. I honestly would have called our marriage happy. Now hubby's work satisfaction no, but our marriage yes. And I think that several things have made all of this come to my mind and to be the canary in the coal mine as some of you said:"

But if you are happy, why are you here? See, MB's idea of a good marriage is NOT peaceful co-existence, which you can have with any roommate, but a passionate, romantic marriage. If you are looking for peaceful co-existence, then you already have what you want. The point is that that is not really a marriage.

You can deduct that whole date from your UA time. What is the point of going out if he is going to be preoccupied with his job?

The whole problem here is that EVERYTHING comes before your marriage. Until that problem is addressed, I don't see you getting too far.

Agreed, the main consistency here is that everything else comes first.

When your husband retires from his job and your children leave the nest, then what? How many grey divorces occur because couples forgot about romantic love for 10, 20, 30 years?

^
This is generally written off as a "midlife crisis" when really, it's because they never established proper boundaries at their "quarter life" crisis when the kids and careers were just getting started.

Good on him for starting to fill that need for you, and good on you for plugging this a little bit to prevent the contrast effect.

One thing that I have become much more wary about since learning what Dr. Harley has to say, is admiration at church. The churches I have been a part of have always been of the mindset that lots of mutual admiration ought to be handed out, that people need this, that we ought to praise people for every thing they do, etc. To some extent we do all need that, and it should happen, but at the same time it's a problem when it outshines what should be happening in marriage.

Be really, really wary of any men who express admiration toward you, even in church.

Nowadays I don't hand out so much admiration at church. Not even to men. I like my admiration to be extremely sincere, rare, for things that are truly exceptional. And I've learned to sort of deflect admiration. If somebody tells me I did a good job at something, I tend to utter a very quiet "thank you," and that's about it. As a result, it seems I get called on to do a lot, but I don't hear a lot of the admiration, and that's truly how I'd like it.

Ever notice how sometimes when Jesus did a good deed, He told people to keep it quiet?

Prisca, though, she can shower me with all the admiration in the world for what I do in church, and that would be great! And she similarly deserves a ton of admiration from me for what she does for our Lord, both in church and at home.


The truth is that God created us with needs. According to Dr. Harley as a psychologist, it is extremely difficult for a person to change their needs. They are essentially hardwired in by a multitude of complex factors, including genetics, upbringing, and things we will simply never know about. They are real and trying to ignore them leads to a lot of problems. They are also quite irrational and may make no sense whatsoever to others, including one's spouse! But they are very real.

There is a religion that teaches that the path to happiness is to annihilate one's own needs and desires. But it is not Christianity. Such religious ideas have actually influenced non-evidence-based marriage counseling quite a bit, and I guess those ideas have found their way into less-scientific Christian marriage counseling, because I've seen them expressed as marriage advice in the church.


Dr. Harley once gave a seminar to a church in Atlanta, where afterward the pastor spoke to the attendees and stated that he disagreed with Dr. Harley saying that church attendance should be subject to the policy of joint agreement (only attend if your spouse is enthusiastic). A church leader stood up to speak in response, and explained that's what his wife had done years ago, before he was a believer. And his wife's behavior converted him! Then another leader stood up and asked to speak, and told the exact same story about himself and his wife. And then another. Dr. Harley says it looked like he'd planted them all!

So I'm a big believer in applying the POJA to church attendance. If Prisca's not enthusiastic about me going, I don't go, and vice versa. We'd look for a place we could both be enthusiastic about.

This is a common question in an unfulfilling marriage.


Exactly. This is what happens when you try to ignore the reality of emotional needs.

Right. If you divide your attention between spouse and phone, or spouse and patients, then it's not undivided attention.

Undivided attention doesn't mean add up all the divided pieces from divided attention, in between interruptions. He can't take work calls during undivided attention time.

That seems to be a rather irrelevant semantic distinction, to me. If he can't block out 15-30 hours a week during which he is not available to anyone else and completely available to you, then he can't create a fulfilling marriage.

Undivided attention time needs to be scheduled when you are not exhausted. It needs to be the time of your week when your energy is the highest.

How about scheduling it before his job?

To be fair, the bowling date happened before he knew about UA. In fact, I just gave him the stuff about UA. Although, it was mentioned at the marriage builders seminar, but to be honest it was mentioned in a rather dismissive way: this is probably unrealistic but the author says you should have 15 hours kind of thing. It wasn't presented as a priority. And it may be a hard fought battle as I went in to talk to the new interim pastor and he thought the 15 hours was unrealistic as well..

But we will give it a shot. As my letter in the other post said, I just now asked him to consider doing 15 hours and POJA. So we'll see what he says when he gets back at the end of the month.

And I'll be honest, we have the best marriage out of most I've seen. So many men or women are just so disrespectful in the way they talk to their spouse.. No one I know goes out on a date with their spouse. I'm one of the few who are trying... So give me a few points for trying to work on it. It will just take time. As soon as he gets back, we'll start scheduling. I really can't imagine him not wanting to..

This was before I had reread the book or even knew about UA. I just was trying to go on a date. Yes, I realize that. That is why we will schedule the dates on his Thursday afternoon off and/or Saturday.

No wonder Dr. Harley does not endorse any of the seminars based on his materials. They are dismissing the core part of his program. If you read his book Effective Marriage Counseling, you can see he says his program won't work without the policy of undivided attention, and he refuses to counsel people who will not commit to following it. You can find the quote on this forum by searching for that book title, as some of us have pasted it many times.

Well, we certainly give you points, but what really matters is how many points your love banks award each other. The rules for how those points are awarded are embedded in this program. They are irrational, and difficult to change.

So, here's your points. Good job for trying. (That's evidence of a high need for admiration, by the way.) But if you want to succeed, not merely try, then be sure to get all the coaching you need to take your game to the top level. Play to win.

Regarding phone calls, here's an interesting segment on a radio show by Dr. Harley to listen to:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2358

This segment is not about UA time, but definitely gives some negative examples of phone usage in marriage.

Just a note to anyone reading along here: Dr. Harley does not endorse any seminars that use his materials. He has a lot of problems with those seminars. In fact, according to his research, people who attend weekend seminars wind up with a worse marriage if there is not a followup program to help the couple after the seminar.

And because many people mix their own ideas in with Marriage Builders or recommend changes to the program and compromises of the things Dr. Harley says are indispensable, those seminars are definitely not really Marriage Builders seminars. I would LOVE to have a discussion group, class, or seminar at my church on a Marriage Builders book, but Dr. Harley would never endorse it, and I'm certainly I would never do as good a job as Dr. Harley himself.

I've been aware for a couple of years now of one group in particular that does church seminars of varying lengths with Dr. Harley's books. I'm glad people are reading the books, but according to Dr. Harley his program needs to not be modified if it's going to work.

This is not a note to you, tiredwife. I've just seen a lot of people on these forums get wrong ideas, and I want everyone to know what I've heard Dr. Harley say about this subject, because I don't want anyone to get something that's not as good. One of my own personal crusades is passing on things I've heard in hundreds of hours of listening to Dr. Harley on the radio. There are a lot of things he's pretty adamant about not compromising, and sometimes we get folks here advocating compromises he says will doom a marriage to failure.

I used to think going to church leaders for marriage advice was a good idea.

But in my experience, many church leaders have not studied what it takes to have a good marriage. Many church leaders I have known have independent, non-bonded marriages, where the couple tolerate each other. Some have even preached from the pulpit that romantic love doesn't last, which I can't find in the Bible.

And it turns out, I can't find the idea that church leaders are good to consult for marriage in the Bible, either. I would think they should be! But I can't find God suggesting me in His word that that's where I should look.

So instead, I go to someone who has made it work for himself and has a proven track record of helping many, many other couples make it work. Just like any other subject of human endeavor: I look to the expert with a proven track record.

What was frustrating was that I was actually honest with someone like Dr. Harley suggested and he was sympathetic but dismissive. Do you know how hard it was for me to make that appointment... I prayed about it, so then what do I do about it.. think that is God's way of saying you are wrong or persevere... ( I'm going to try the program. I'm just telling you what I thought coming out of the meeting.)

As far as the phone thing goes, what I would say now is.. Honey, it really bothers me when we are out together and you spend time on the phone. Can you please leave the phone off or let us not go on a date until you can be unavailable to your patients and partners? I feel left out and bored while you are talking to other people. I love you so much and I would really like to just talk to you and listen to you talk to me! But this was months ago and I said nothing. I hadn't learned about all of this. I have spent HOURS going through a TON of posts on this forum years back. I've currently downloaded all of the relevent programs from the present to december of 2010. I think it goes back to 2006, so I'll keep going. I am immersing myself in the concepts. I will get a 100% if it kills me.

Years back, there was a ton of non-MB advice handed out on this board. Sometimes there still is, but it's much rarer and often edited out quickly. I wouldn't spend any time reading old posts. They would hurt more than help.

Stick to the radio program, Harley's literature, and current postings. Get involved with the online program or phone coaching if you are still struggling.

You could ask your husband if he would be willing to participate in either the home study or online program.

What you will want to do before bringing the idea to him, is to formulate a way to sell the idea to him as something that he will see reward from;

"Honey, I've found this program, and I want to turn my 'awesome wife' volume up to 11. How would you feel about that?"

"But, honey, you already ARE an awesome wife!"

"Thank you, dear, but this is my profession, and I want to increase my proficiency!"

I think I would like to give us a chance to try the program on our own first. If we get stuck, then I will call in the big guns. I know that he loves me. In fact, I just came across something that triggered a memory that I wanted to share because I don't want you to get the idea that my husband is some kind of horrible guy. First of all, you have to know that he hates coffee. He doesn't drink soft drinks either just decaf tea. ( How a doctor made it through med school and residency, I will never know.) However, I LOVE coffee.

When my dad died 3 years ago, my hubby was absolutely wonderful. My dad had been doing better but was still on a vent. Earlier that day I had visited him and I sang to him and told him everything I had ever wanted to say: I love you. I'm glad you were my dad, etc. ( In the 5 years he came to live with us or near us, he changed. He accepted Christ and was baptized and we got many issued resolved between us. ) They called me to the hospital and said he had taken a turn for the worse. I dropped off the kids at a friend and by the time I made it there he was in full arrest. My hubby was up there and felt so bad that I hadn't made it, but honestly... I don't think he would have wanted me to see all of that and I had already said everything to him that I wanted to.

He died at 11pm and my husband was supposed to be on call the next day and immediately called and had someone else cover and took off the following days as well. He comforted me, held me when I cried, was just great. Over the next few days he was with me and my sister as all of the tough decisions had to be made. My sister hadn't really helped me take care of dad as she also suffers from the depression that plagued my father and they had a much more volitile relationship. I told her that she needed to resolve it, but she never did.. My husband just quietly held my hand and gave me his support. If we were stuck on a decision, then we would ask him something and he quietly gave his advice only when asked.

He held me up during the visitation and I told him that I'm not doing that if he dies and he doesn't have to do that when I die. UGGH the endless line of people coming to tell you how sorry they are and having to say the same thing over and over when all you want to do is be alone. It is horrible. I couldn't have done it without my husband.

What made me think of this is the card I came across in my bedside table. I need to put it in the box with all the love letters he wrote me when we were dating. First of all the card itself was beautiful and the words were wonderful. He gave it to me along with a coffee mug that says I love chocolate and a Starbucks type gift card. He gave it to me the day a month later that I finished cleaning out my dad's rental house and giving up the key. He told me how sorry he was about my dad and that he knew how hard the day was. He wrote how much he admired me for the way I took care of my dad. He also thanked me for how much I did for the kids and him and told me how much he loved me. It was a sweet, sweet note..

He is a sweet guy. We just let life get in the way and I think part of it is he is such a perfectionist that he expects to be able to do EVERYTHING well when in reality we are all just human and can only do a couple of things well if we are lucky...

I need to tell him I need him. I have always tried to be the strong one, the independent one that helps others and doesn't need anything. I just need to let him help...