You can set your watch to EE's admonitions to women - any and all women - on this board.

I need to be heard.

My opinion matters too.

Dream conversation:

Me-"I really don't feel comfortable having MIL stay here after the baby is born."
Ship-" Oh, sorry to hear that. I would hate to do anything that made you feel uncomfortable. I would really like my family here to celebrate the birth of our 4th child. How would you feel about just having MIL/FIL stay here with the understanding that no get-togethers will happen at our house?"
Me-"I don't feel comfortable with that either because there would still be a possibility of a confrontation if MIL doesn't understand/agree."
Ship-"I can see that. What if she stays with BIL? And then if you are feeling good we could then schedule a BBQ over at our house so they can celebrate with us?"
Me-"If I'm feeling well, I would probably be okay with that, but I don't want to do any cooking or cleaning."
Ship-"Sounds fair."
Me-"And if I'm not feeling up to company, then maybe we could set up visiting hours like the hospital does from 2-4pm or something?"

ETC ETC ETC

I don't know if we have EVER had a conversation like that. I'm on Ship's team. I'm on his side. I want him to feel celebrated as a father just as much as I want to be considered as a mother having just given birth.

I care so much about him.

I want to be cared about, too.

Ship often admonishes me, too.

I know I do a lot of things wrong. I really want to correct my side of the street.

I need ship to validate me and take my feelings as something to be taken VERY seriously. I used to say, "Why can't my feelings sit in stone with you like your feelings do with me? If I say how I feel about something, it is not up for debate. Why is it so often up for debate?"

Thanks kerala.

I'm trying to figure it all out. So how does calling someone "stupid" for sleeping all day instead of working not a DJ? (didn't happen, just example)

Wouldn't the fact be, "I cannot stand it when someone chooses to sleep all day rather than work." I wouldn't even go so far as to call them lazy because isn't that a DJ as well?

I feel that God can judge us, but we are not in the position to do that. Jesus didn't come into the world to condemn it, but to save it.

I do think, however, that I can say, "The Bible says that someone who sleeps all day will go hungry. The Bible calls it lazy."

Am I being too extreme?

I do understand this. But one of the gifts of using the Basic Concepts over time is that you can over time come to an understanding with your spouse easier. I think if she approaches it as, "You are just wrong," she's going to be mad every time she sees him, making more withdrawals on both sides. It sounds like he has a really strong need for Admiration, and when she is still thinking about it later, he can tell, and she is missing a big opportunity to make lots of super easy deposits.

But if she approaches it as, "This is just temporary State of Conflict stuff. I have a plan to move us out of State of Conflict, and then we won't have to worry about this anymore, because this behavior will eliminate itself" she won't be angry every time she sees him.

Anointed, I don't think it's realistic to think he's going to put you first in the present, because he's in State of COnflict with you. He wants to gain at your expense right now, part of him may even seek out opportunities to do this, and find it rewarding. He likes this feeling right thing and putting the group first thing more than he likes making you happy. Choosing to believe that opening a door could stop the Holy Spirit from moving, that is really grasping at straws, but that's okay, it's temporary. But when you're recharged, and start up some UA time, it should all click into place again. But you're tired today, so is he, and neither of you wants to feel like you're "going first." I get it, would imagine everyone on this site can relate, we've all been in State of Conflict at some point. How about just texting him something that would take an hour tonight, something you both find recharging, and if he doesn't show up, then follow through doing that relaxing and recharging thing anyway.

I used to plan fun, light FC time, take the kids out back to play soccer. Easy to join when he got home, and if he didn't want to, we would have fun anyway. Your kids are young such a short period of time, take some time to enjoy them before the baby comes. Maybe go to bed early while you still can. I don't know, what do you like to do that would take your mind off the hard stuff?

Thank you, NED.

Just....thanks.

Um, I don't even know what I would enjoy at this point. Maybe a hot bath.

The kids are honestly hard to enjoy because they are usually at each others' throats as well....always have been. The conflict makes me want to run 10000000 miles the other direction. But I'm mom, so I have to redirect, discipline, and teach.

I don't know that the conflict bothers Ship as much.

So, in a nutshell FC has never been enjoyable for me. There was one time that we took the older 2 (the ones constantly fighting) to Six Flags and we told them that if they said one negative word that we'd send them to wait while we rode the rides.

They were happy and fun the whole day! It was probably THE best time I've ever had with my kids. It hasn't happened before or since that I can recall.

The conflict is such a LB for me (in any relationship) that I truly struggle to have a fun, relaxing time with that person...even my own children. I hope that doesn't make me a terrible mom.

So, my kids fight. Me and Ship can't seem to get our act together.

That means, my favorite thing is to soak in a bubble bath, sing praise music, and talk to my God.

Makes me sound so victimized, but I don't feel like a victim. It is just how I feel right now.

Anointed, believe me I understand about stress, I should find my thread and post an update, this past week and a half I've sat through the murder trial for the gunman that killed my Dad, and listened to the getaway driver testify. So I can tell you from personal experience that "If He brings you to it He'll bring you through it" is true.

In HNHN for Parents the remedy for thoughtless kids is... spending 15+ hours FC time a week with them, so they can learn thoughtfulness from your example. Yes I know you're already tired. After my divorce, we took the kids to family counseling for a bit in addition to the FC time. I wonder if something like that would help get the kids situation under control though. What do you think would make FC time enjoyable? And meanwhile, does texting your H inviting him to meet you for a bath this evening sound like a good idea?

Anointed, I have been so worried about the advice that you received about the locked door incident that I sent some time reading on the private forum to find similar cases, and see what Dr H's advice was. The nearest situation I could find involved a marriage in which there had been an affair. The couple had recently met Dr H at the weekend forum.

The BW wrote to Dr H because on a flight the previous weekend, she had felt ill. She told her H about feeling unwell and he had not responded in a caring manner. He had not comforted her on the flight and when they left the plane, he had left her to carry her own bags.

At home, when she complained about his lack of care for her on the flight, he did not think there had been anything wrong with the way he behaved. He pointed out that he did ask the steward for something to make his wife feel better. In all, he made it clear that he did not see why she was upset and did not think she should be.

This sounds a bit like your situation the other day, pregnant (which is not a short-term event, of course) and faced with your H's uncaring behaviour towards you. Since then, you have tried to explain why you felt uncared for in the hope that he will see how this hurts you and care enough to try and change his uncaring behaviour. He doesn't see what is upsetting about how he treated you so he is making no commitment to treating you more caringly in the future.

This was Dr H's response to the poster on the private forum:


"Your husband's thoughtless behaviours are all habits that need to be changed".

This husband wanted to change, evidenced by his being at the weekend seminar. He had spoken to Dr H and Dr H knew this about him; he wanted to change. Therefore, Dr H's advice was for his wife to keep asking him to consider her feelings in all his actions, and for her to be patient because he wanted to change. But a change in behaviours was necessary if this wife was to fall in love with him again. Her LB was severely in the red because of the affair, and the uncaring behaviour was making this worse.

In a follow-up reply Dr H wrote:

It's the same solution for you. If your H wants to make you happy he will need to commit to changing thoughtless behaviours, and he will need to listen to you when you complain, and not reject your complaint. If you are maintain your commitment to this marriage over time, then you need to see a willingness to change the behaviours you dislike, and, slowly, actual changes in your H's behaviour.

To suggest that to re-send the text after two "no answers" is a "selfish demand" is bizarre. To suggest that asking him 5 more times, to be met with 3 "no"s and another "no answer", with no explanation for why he was refusing to help you, is a selfish demand is just Alice-in-Wonderland-speak.

Dr Harley uses the concept of selfish demands to describe threatening, sulking and otherwise punishing a spouse who does not accede to our requests. He does not use it to refer to a repeated request made because first, you get no answer and then, you get a "no" that makes no sense to you and you do not understand.

You have been shamefully bullied about this by a misuse of Dr Harley's concept.

Wow NED. I'm so, so sorry for what you are going through. I know God is bringing me to a new season of strength. That is why I am now able to express myself better. Before, I either sacrificed and held it in or acted like a complete WITCH to let out my frustration. It must have been very confusing to my kids and Ship.

I can text him about the bath, but I don't know how I feel about it. Just still hurting is all.

SugarCane,

Thank you soooooo much for this! I will be back to reread later what you posted.

Don't know how Ship will respond to all of this.

I'm sure he has many complaints as well.

We aren't talking, so I don't know.

That. Was. Great.

That's the really awesome thing about being here, how much it reminds me daily how we aren't tied to repeating old behavior and experiencing its unwanted consequences in an endless loop. We get *today* and going forward to learn about and choose new tools that will create the marriages and families we had always wanted, and how to strengthen them so they will last a lifetime.

Neither of you are bad or wrong, you both just, like the rest of us, have patterns that aren't working, but it's okay, you're learning and trying out new ones, to see how they fit for you, how they can help you build a new marriage and family together. Yes, he has complaints as well, but it's not like there's a scoreboard, that if he has complaints, that's it, you stop trying to problem-solve about the stuff that bothers you. That's old programming. Today you two are a team. I remember when I would try to bring up something, like the AOs, and my then-H's response was just like your H posted. "Oh so your 'angry outbursts' at the kids are okay and I'm just the bad guy here huh?" It left me feeling confused and defensive. "Put a hopper on," was a visual that helped me not get sucked in, to stay in this new mindset of we-are-a-team-learning-new-things as much as I could. So I could hand him back his words, "Yes, like how I used to yell at the kids, that's exactly what I want your help with, eliminating those kinds of angry outbursts." They were actually good examples as long as I didn't take it personally.

I know it has to be hard for you, being so tired. I know that's a natural part of the process, when you move from State of Conflict to State of Withdrawal. I respect whatever decisions you make. But as long as you want to keep fighting for your marriage, we'll be here right alongside you fighting, too.

I encourage you to do what you can to recharge anyway, you will need all the strength you can get, whatever you choose. I remember how sad, tiring, and draining it could be to do your best Plan A and see your H's lack of response and continued DJs and neglect. I am still hoping that your H "gets it" before that switch is flipped in your mind, and you lose your willingness to fight with him for this marriage.

While you're still in the house, might as well put these tools to work as best as you can. Either it will help you build a great marriage, or it will help you co-parent alone and together more effectively later, and help you in whatever the next chapter is. The end of the chapter exercise in the LB book involved writing the AOs down and sharing them once a week. But I forgot, you were talking about DJs. I don't remember for sure but I'm thinking it may have been similar, to write them down so you can take them off your mind for the rest of the week, and just look at them when you've had some time to focus on "we're a team" instead of being in the defensive score-keeping mindset. Do you have that book?

Hi, Anointed,

Sorry I'm a little late to this; I had to dig up to find the original post everyone was talking about in your thread.

While I would say that your husband does not "have" to open the door for you, you guys should understand that you felt frustrated because you had an emotional need here that was not met. This is part of your need for affection.

In addition, his continued participation in the study when you were waiting outside is an example of independent behavior. It is the same as if a husband and wife are talking to each other, and one of them receives a phone call and says "I have to take this," and takes it over his (or her) spouse's objections. In order to have a good marriage, husband and wife need to prioritize each other over everything, including church. He was naturally concerned about the inconvenience to his Bible class of your texts coming in, but missed the fact that the inconvenience to you has greater consequences for his marriage.

The important thing is not to turn these things into fights. There was no plan before as to what to do in such a situation. You can make one, now.

Thanks NED! I will work on recharging some. I am trying to be as OH to Ship as possible when I'm feeling tired or upset. I did have an AO on Friday night. It wasn't directed at anyone...I just did too much and was tripping and hurting myself a lot. I then dropped my iphone from upstairs to the downstairs tile floor and it was all I could do not to use every profane word in the book!

I was LIVID! I was just flat out too tired and trying to do too much, and my family heard me have a nice little tyrade to myself as they were trying to pray together. (I was too angry to join in) It was lovely, let me tell you.

We haven't committed to writing anything down lately. We do typically discuss what happened (like my AO) and we apologize for it as it occurs. I can talk to Ship about addressing these things once a week.

I really like looking at it as "we are a team" after writing down my concerns. I do have Lovebusters and have read it.

Yes, markos. I really appreciate your input. One thing that has been hard for my family to embrace is the idea that a person doesn't have to understand "why" it bothers someone else, just listen to the complaint and respond in a caring way.

I also really like your last paragraph. I did let it turn into a fight. I did ask for a plan from Ship for the next time, but I'm not really sure we ever came to a firm conclusion.

Here is where we are:

Ship and I had a fairly long conversation on Friday night. I had not met his SF needs for almost 2 weeks at that point.

At first it was a lot of arguing and Ship saying "why are you still in the house with me if I've made you so miserable? why keep having kids with me?" etc etc etc.

I kept asking him to LISTEN to me. I have not felt intimate and safe with him for most of our marriage. There have been safe and intimate times, but I would not define our marriage as intimate and safe as a whole...for either of us.

This really hurt him. I told him that I wanted things to be fulfilling for the BOTH of us. That I know I haven't met his needs and don't blame him for not wanting to meet mine. But I do want a good marriage.

He says that he has just accepted how things are (SF), and I said that I wasn't ok with that! Why would we want to head down the same path as everyone else around us just to divorce after 25+ years of marriage when we both finally just don't give a crap anymore???

We talked about the significance of UA time, and we did agree to make a plan for 5 hours a week as a start. (Ship doesn't believe 15 is doable). I told him I would agree to that with the understanding that we would work up to 15. I also wanted those 5 hrs to focus heavily on the 4 ENs (as it should).

We did make a plan for UA time today as we discussed on Friday. If things go as planned we should get around 9hrs total UA and that doesn't include any time alone on Saturday.

I have a plan to meet his need for SF 5X this week which falls into his preference of 4-6X per week. I told him that just being willing to make a PLAN for intimacy already draws me closer to him and makes me more willing for SF.

We are working on things.

I forgot to mention that even in a state of conflict, the reason Ship and I were even able to talk at ALL Friday night is because he asked me to take a walk with him since working out at the gym wasn't going to happen for him. He reached out to me even in our disconnect.

Of course it did. And your marital review was based on your current emotional state, in which memories reconstructed only had to current emotions to work with.


The point?


Quit waste your time throwing your marital history in your husband's face as a way to motivate him. It won't work.


This program is PRESENT and FUTURE oriented.


Telling him that your mutual marital history was "bad" really had no other outcome possible other than causing him some pain.

You know that, right?

There are only 2 reasons we bring up the past like that; to prove ourselves right, or to prove our spouse wrong.

No more, sister. Knock it off.

Anointed, it concerns me that you discuss SF in terms of his need for SF. How come you two don't look at it as a need you both have? SF is a need for connection, including spiritual, not one person doing for the other. Like RC, it's important that you all choose things you both look forward to. Have you checked out those From WIllingness to Desire Q&As?