I see what you're saying HHH, but I think I am being very OH by saying that throughout the whole of our marriage I have walked on eggshells around Ship...whether or not it was necessary is not the point. I felt I needed to.

We have struggled with SF from the beginning. At first, I wanted it more often and he didn't. I felt rejected. We were pregnant when we got married and I wouldn't be surprised that shame kept Ship from enjoying SF after marriage as much as I would have liked.

That was the start of a vicious cycle. From the beginning we both have done things to keep intimacy from growing between us. I have been a COMPLETE WITCH from time to time...no doubt. I'm sure it was very attractive to Ship...NOT!

My point in telling Ship that I would not define our marriage as safe was to be OH in the true state of our marriage. He kept telling me how he just accepts things, etc. I don't know if he was trying to tell me to do the same and "just be committed" no matter what, but that was the sense I was getting from him.

I needed him to know the truth. Because I have been too weak to express it properly in the past. Because often he has tried to convince me to feel differently than I do (And I have done this to him also.)

When we were talking on Friday he was not listening to me. He just wasn't. He was stuck on how "horrible" I kept saying things were. When we were actually having a productive conversation, I was very respectful in letting him know how I have felt.

I'm sorry that it hurts him that I haven't felt safe or heard. But I haven't. I don't feel that way because of the current state of our marriage.

I have always felt that way...and this coming from a non-foggy wife. I am being truthful. I hope Ship wants a different marriage than we've had because I certainly want to be a different wife.

Some days I do well...others not so much. But I'm trying.

And now that I can face the truth and have a plan, I'm on my way.

Sorry if it seems I am dismissing what you said HHH.

I'm not. I will focus on the future. I needed Ship to get a grasp on how I have felt for many, many years. I hope he did.

Well, NED I guess it is because at this point, SF is pretty low on my personal priority list. I'm making it a priority because I know SF is like breathing air for Ship, and I want to be there for him.

I know that once we are emotionally intimate I will crave SF more.

I'm being OH about my needs and letting him know what I like and don't like.

I even shared some embarrassing feelings I was having when I met his need yesterday. I hate that I have sexual abuse in my past. I hate that it affects my enjoyment at times, but it is getting better. The past abuse makes it IMPERATIVE that Ship is safe for me in every way in order for me to completely open up. We are still learning how to be safe for each other.

I would say that since November I have been willing to admit I'm wrong. Pride has been an issue on my side of the street...because being right was more important to me than caring for my husband.

I'm hoping Ship is feeling more heard and that I'm willing to apply my own rules to myself. I have been a hypocrite in the past.

Anyway, we are still working.

Oops no I haven't read the willingness to desire Q&A's. I'll check into it when I come back. Thanks NED.

So our UA time last night went very sour. Right when we were about to head out the door to work out together (RC), then SF, then do Bible study we get a call from Ship's mom that she is headed into town and is 2 hrs away! The drive is 4.5+ hours so she waited quite a while to let us know she was coming.

I was furious. I'm very tired of Ship's mom doing this. When I have confronted her in the past about not informing me of her plans she simply says that she DID tell me. For years, if she talks to 1 or more of her 5 children about her plans she considers that informing me. (I don't know if she expects her other children to tell me?)

I told Ship I was very upset and he was blind-sided by this. He thought that she must have already arranged this with me and that I hadn't mentioned it to him. I was upset at this because I feel that I inform him of plans and especially since trying to work MB I make a point to ask him how he feels about things. He says in the past he has not known what is going on and has just gone with the flow.

From what I understand, his childhood was like this. No discipline when it comes to being on time or keeping to plans. He has had to learn to go with the flow. His family has often called him a "jerk" for having strong opinions about the way things are done so I wonder if he has dialed it back to keep the peace. I'll admit that I have seen him commit LBs while addressing his concerns, so that didn't help them receive his opinions. Even so, most of the time my experience with Ship's sisters and mother has been that if I don't want to go along with plans they will convince me otherwise and tell me why I should feel differently.

And Ship has gone along with it in the past.

Last night, after completely botching my approach with him (he said I was disrespectful and having AOs) he did text his mom saying something like "would it be possible to stay at {sister's} house tonight since our house is a mess. We weren't prepared because we didn't know when you were coming."

We didn't hear back for a while so I was getting things moved around in the garage making room for the items that I'm getting rid of in the gameroom...TONS of stuff!

And a lot of it was bought by Ship's mom over the years (excessively), so I didn't want her to see that. I have to make room for the new baby. The gameroom upstairs has been a disaster for 4 years since Ship didn't want me getting rid of anything. It is just too much stuff for me to organize!

Anyway, Ship's mom did stay at my SILs house and Ship said she didn't sound upset on the phone when he talked to her. Even so, we are both very upset with the way things went down last night....no SF, no UA time, no affection or good conversation.

I'm very tired of being ignored regarding the disrespect some of his family shows me AND Ship. The only reason Ship sent the text was because I wouldn't drop it. He just wants to be "good hosts." I do too, but I want to be treated with courtesy. It's not like this is the first time this has happened.

So frustrated.

Oh, and we had Bible Study again on Monday night and I was late due to leading worship at our church (just like last week).

They were supposed to leave the door unlocked. I walked up to the door and it was locked. ugh.

I texted Ship and he opened it right away with a big smile on his face.

When I think of "foggy," I don't isolate the idea of it strictly to infidelity. I think of what it sounds like; unclear thinking.

We are all capable of it, and in different shades. If you were deep into a state of intimacy RIGHT NOW your marital history assessment would look different. It's just how our memory works.

Got it HHH. I see what you are saying. Thanks.

Anointed's 9-11 post got me thinking about when it's appropriate to make a demand or a request. A demand is "do it or else" while a request gives the recipient the right to refuse without negative ramifications.

A pregnant Anointed was late to a Bible study that she attended with her husband, and was locked out of the church (probably because there were security issues in the area). She texted her husband to let her in so she could attend the last 30 minutes of the study. He refused because he didn't want to interrupt the bible study by leaving the room. She was deeply offended.

Her situation was technically something other than a demand, because she was not threatening her husband if he refused, or a request, because she did not expect him to refuse. What we have there is an example of someone who was in trouble and needed help. If any woman who had been attending the Bible study had texted anybody in attendance that she was locked out of the church, anybody would have gone to her rescue because we all recognize the need to help others in distress.

Why was her husband the exception? The answer is quite simple, He was either punishing her for being late, or so selfish that he didn't even have common empathy for a damsel in distress. There are no rules to guide someone who simply isn't interested in caring for others. If you see someone needing emergency care, what rule have you broken to pass them by?

Marriage assumes that spouses care for each other in an extraordinary way. They go beyond the care that anyone else would offer, to provide exceptional attention and protection. Anointed's husband did the opposite. He provided less care than a stranger would have provided under the same circumstances.

Anointed was reasonable in assuming that her husband would go to the trouble of letting her into the locked church. It was not safe for her to be left outside the door, knocking. It was evidence that in her marriage, her husband is so uncaring toward her that she can not assume that he will protect her in the future, even in trivial situations. The next time she is in trouble, and needs help, she has impressive proof that she can't depend on her husband for relief. She has probably had many similar experiences with him in the past, but she keeps expecting a different result. Even though he did respond positively this past week in a similar situation (locked out of the church), I would be surprised if he understands what his previous error implies for the long-term future.

Best wishes,
Willard F. Harley, Jr.

Wow! Thank you Dr. Harley!

I thought for sure people were getting tired of my situation and had given up on me, and then here comes Dr. Harley himself!

Thank you Lord for continuing to show me You care.

I agree with Dr. Harley, but I do have a question.

Our Bible study is actually at a house in a very affluent neighborhood. Very low crime. Does that change the advice any? Was I really unsafe outside?

Just want to clarify because I know Ship loves me. Does that change the advice?

Thank you so much!

Anointed:

It does somewhat, but I'm still astonished that anyone would let their pregnant wife stand outside for an undetermined amount of time with such an uncaring response. I'm still interested to know if there have been similar incidents in the past (which I would expect), and if your husband sees his extraordinarily uncaring behavior as anything to be concerned about. I understand that he had "reasons," but does he see that his reasons are terribly unjustified in that situation. It falls into the category of being incredibly uncaring and negligent. It can't possibly be an isolated incident. It has to be part of a pattern of neglect. But you can easily talk me out of my reaction by telling me that this kind of thing has never happened before, and your husband is deeply apologetic for what he did (but I would still find it to be disturbing).

Best wishes,
Willard F. Harley, Jr.

Anointed, Dr Harley's advice is not conditional on the neighbourhood having been unsafe. That is not the point that is made is that advice. The point is that you asked your H for help to let you in, and he gave you less help than most strangers would have given. For goodness sake, please do not hand your critics the ammunition to say since you were not at risk of anything then your texting and deep offence was indeed a selfish demand. Dr Harley says that you were reasonable in assuming that your H would go to the trouble of letting you into the locked church. Reasonable; not selfish.

Dr Harley's whole point is that your H should care for you more than anyone else does, and more than he cares for anyone else. That's what a marriage is about. In that instance, your H cared about the annoyance to others in the room more than he cared about your feelings and welfare. That is unacceptable - which is obvious to anybody who has "common empathy" (as Dr Harley puts it) for other people's needs.

These are the important parts of what Dr Harley said; not the guess that the neighbourhood was unsafe but his description of yours and your H's behaviour:

Dr. Harley's insight always amazes me. What left me wondering was that when Anointed asked her H what happened, why she was left outside standing in the cold, his response was that he felt the Holy Spirit moving in the room, and didn't want to interrupt that to open the door. Now, I'm no theologian, but as just a lay person, I would think the Holy Spirit would continue to move or not move regardless of whether someone went to let their wife join them. But that he replied with such an answer, and expected her to accept that, I think shows a deep level of dishonesty as well. And Anointed's unwillingness to knock on the door for so long (17 minutes, right?) out of fear of her H's reaction points to a deep level of continued neglect as well.

Anointed I didn't see Dr H's response before I wrote. I think the parts that I underlined are significant.

Could you make a one-post summary of the problems you have posted about in this thread? I know they include angry outbursts, DJs and other kinds of LBs, but I also think you should mention that your H had an affair. When was it, how long did it last, and was it just the one affair? It would take anyone a very long time to read this thread from the beginning to get a view on your problems.

I just want to thank you all. Thank you NED, for your kindness and insightful posts. Thank you SugarCane for coming to my defense. I have a feeling that Dr Harley visited my thread because of you, so thank you.

Thank you Dr. Harley. I now have tools that I have never possessed in my life due to the MB program. I can now identify "what" is bothering me because there is a definition I can use from the program. My DH (Ship) is very good at talking me out of my feelings, and this program has strengthened my resolve to be good to myself.

So thanks.

Has Ship seen Dr Harley's posts, Anointed? How is he responding, if so?

I did notify about two or three posts on this thread that I felt were misusing Dr H's concepts, and were bullying you into accepting that you were in the wrong. I feel that contorted logic and distortions of Dr H's concepts have happened on other threads, always of women complaining about their husbands, and usually, but not always, on this 101 board. You might remember that I felt strongly about HopefulNC's thread about getting hit on. I notified on that, and on other threads too, but this is the first one that I have seen with an intervention.

I'm so glad that you got Dr H's direct help. I think you should write to the radio show every time you feel that you are being talked out of your feelings.

What an undertaking! Here goes:

1)Ship had affairs with 4 different women over the course of 2 years (right after our 11 year old was born). They were all at work. I didn't know about MB at the time. Never exposed...only a few people know. No contact or inappropriate behavior since. Open with his schedule, email, and time.

2) I came here recently because I was ready to leave Ship last year. Lots of anger regarding boundaries crossed by Ship and his family. Lots of dismissing of my feelings and showing lack of care.

3)I don't know where this comes in with MB, but my biggest concern in my marriage is VALIDATION. My feelings and opinions are not accepted and respected at face value.

4)He has had AOs in the past that include name calling. Most of the time his AOs do not include yelling, just very sharp words.

5)UA time is severely lacking, and Ship insists 15 hrs is not doable. We tried for 5 hrs this week, and so far it is looking grim.

6)Ship expresses his opinions in a forceful way, and I don't feel like my opinions are respected.

7)Ship is "willing" to do what is necessary for the marriage and makes an effort, but the effort does not continue. He has yet to finish a MB book, and I gave him an ultimatum to do 1 of 3 things or the marriage would end: a)post on MB forum (FREE), b)do online program, or c)Call the Harleys. He has reluctantly posted [ShipAtSea] but has not continued to do so. It is on his TO DO list though. I think he is just feeling overwhelmed with all of his responsibilities....mainly our financial stress.

8)An excerpt from my thread that has been a theme in our marriage: "One other thing was that he said I expect the worst out of him. Throughout our marriage I have felt extremely criticized for just about everything I did. I have been walking on eggshells all along and have not felt safe at all. The criticism had all but killed my love for him just a few months ago. Are the things he said criticism? [self-doubt] Why am I so devastated when he says things like this to me? Shouldn't I be grown up enough to accept his point of view? It feels like my world falls in when he does this."

9)I called into the MB Radio show because Ship has refused to expose to his family about his affairs 10 years ago even though I told him it would help me. Dr Harley told me that just the idea that it would help me heal is reason enough to do it bc it shows care and is just compensation. Ship never did.

10)LBs have significantly decreased, however. (I'm the pregnant woman Dr Harley advised on the radio program that I leave my husband for not stopping AOs. Ship now says I have AOs more often than he does.)

11)Ship likes to receive oral sex but he pushes for it so often--even though he knows I truly don't like it--that I avoid it like the plague. It is a sore subject he brings up often. He says it hurts him that I don't want to do it for
him because he is so willing to please me in the SF dept. Not sure how true that is bc if he really wanted to please me he would be very caring to me in our marital relationship and make SF safe and enjoyable for me.

12)Ship does not believe POJA works. He is very black and white and has not been willing to brainstorm with me on issues.

13)As of 3 months ago, these were my top 5 EN:
ADMIRATION
CONVERSATION
FINANCIAL SUPPORT
DOMESTIC SUPPORT
AFFECTION

Ship's top 5 EN:
Honesty & Openness
Sexual Fulfillment
Financial Support
Admiration
Family Commitment

14)Dr Harley asked if there have been any other instances of lack of care. In June Ship drove to a bar with co-workers while on a business trip even when I told him I didn't want him to. (He has only had that 1 business trip ever) Not long after, Ship went to a bar with co-workers without me even though I made it clear I was uncomfortable with it. I got upset with him on the phone and he chose to walk in to the restaurant anyway saying that I was free to meet him there if I wanted to. It took him a week to admit I had reason to be upset with him. He hasn't done it since.

15)I've discussed leaving the marriage several times now (and meant it) but Ship still shows lack of care and feels the need to debate my feelings.

16)He has adjusted his behaviors when we go through a blow up but I often feel like it is not enthusiastic. Sometimes he says "how would you FEEL about..." and it sounds sarcastic. When he opened the door for me on Monday at the Bible study after not opening the door for me the week before, he had a BIG smile on his face...and I don't know how genuine it was. I just can't read him. I'm glad he is responding, but I just don't know his heart about all of this.

LACK OF CARE and taking my feelings seriously are probably my biggest concerns at this time.

Sorry if this was all over the place, I clicked through my thread and tried to summarize it all.

No, he hasn't. I'm sure it won't be a good response.

He has a job interview today, so I didn't mention it at lunch. I want him to be in a good frame of mind.

If you hadn't stepped in, I would still be going round and round in my mind trying to figure out if I'm crazy or not. Ship is very good at debating and can really work me over. I'm glad I'm finding some firm footing.

Again, I feel like you rescued me from a very destructive path, so thank you.

MORE CONDENSED SUMMARY:

1)Ship had 4 affairs 2001-2002. No exposure. EP are in place.

2)In July 2011 I made plans to leave Ship. Very angry at inconsiderate behaviors from Ship and his family.

3)I am not Validated in my concerns.

4)His AOs include name-calling (whether or not they are directed at me.) Ship rarely yells.

5)UA time is not productive and doesn't come close to 15 hrs.

6)Ship does not follow through on actions needed to better the marriage.

7)He is still unwilling to expose his affairs from 10 years ago even though Dr H told him it would help me. He did, however, tell friends of ours so we could help them through their infidelity struggles.

8)LBs have significantly decreased.

9)He wants oral sex from me even though he knows I do not enjoy it most times and brings up the lack of it often.

10)Ship does not believe POJA works. He is very black and white and has not been willing to brainstorm with me on issues.

11)My Top 5 ENs: ADMIRATION,CONVERSATION,FINANCIAL SUPPORT, DOMESTIC SUPPORT,AFFECTION.

12)Ship's top 5 EN:OPENNESS & HONESTY, SEXUAL FULFILLMENT, FINANCIAL SUPPORT, ADMIRATION, FAMILY COMMITMENT

13)Other instances of lack of care-- He went to a bar with co-workers on 2 separate occassions without me, knowing I did not want him to.

14)I've discussed leaving the marriage several times now (and meant it) but Ship still shows lack of care and feels the need to debate my feelings.

LACK OF CARE and taking my feelings seriously are probably my biggest concerns at this time.