This is not an accusation. I really need an answer to a question from the point of view of both men who have betrayed and/or have been betrayed.<P>My H was the betrayer and he said he still looks at other women and if he finds them attractive it flashes through his mind what it would be like to be intimate with her.<P>How should I take this. Is this just the "way guys think".<P>I feel that if I truly satisfied him, as he insists that I do, that wouldn't be a problem anymore.<P>Another thing, doesn't it seem a little insenstive of him to even express this to me. We were discussing the fact that I don't think it seems to be bothering him the pain he has caused me and the children and as proof of his pain he tells me how hard it is for him to keep from lusting after every "attractive" woman he sees. No only did this make me feel that he didn't consider me "attractive" it made me feel extremely threatened.<P>I need help sorting this out with information from men that I am not already furious at.<P>Feel free to email me if you don't want to post a reply.<P>jessatwork@ev1.net

forgive me, my dear, but your H is a jerk. Sound a bit immature and certain thougthless to me. Possibly he is concerned with the loss of his manhood or maleness if he stops lusting after all women he sees, attractive or not. But he is acting in an uncaring and ignorant manner when he expresses those thoughts to his W. As Abraham Lincoln once said "It is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought the fool than to open it and remove all doubt".<P>Be certain of your own value and don't allow anyone else including your H to diminish your worth.<P>Good luck<P>Flip

It's not the way I think. Sure I can look at a woman & think she is attractive, but thinking, "man I'd really like to do her" is not part of the process.<P>Men don't ALWAYS think with "the other head." <P>I think it is good for him to share this with you (Rule of Honesty), however, he should not be thinking this. Tell him, without Love Busters, that you feel hurt & threatened by this.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A>

I appreciate the rule of honesty, but what floored me is that I was telling him I needed to see that he was hurt by hurting me, not just relieved that I hadn't left. This lust confession was his reply. He expected me to take this confession as a sign of "feelings" and "remorse" and acted shocked that I was hurt. Shouldn't he be hurting too, not from losing his lover, or from having to "settle for me alon", but because he hurt me? Should I take this lack of pain as a sign that I don't matter? I just feel like such a consolation prize, one that will eventually be thrown away because it really doesn't mean much. <P>I find that as read the posts on this forum, after a while I can't tell from the posts whether the person is the betrayed or the betrayer, all I read is pain from both sides. I don't read about pain from the one that was betrayed and relief from the one who did the cheating. What makes him so different?

I agree he does sound a bit immature.<P>I feel and have thoughts like that- but I do not express those thoughts. <P>He should realize how that affects you.<P>if he is willing to work on this- and i do not know if that is true- ask him to read "light her fire". Wish i could remember the authors name. Lots of good advice here.<P>good luck

My h is pretty much the same. He insists that every man thinks about being with other women even if they are in a commited relationship and deeply in love. He also stands by the "that's the way men are" theory. I really don't believe that and I would like to know if it is true too. I still think that all men aren't like that.<P>------------------<BR>Jaded Heart<BR>____________<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>and if I shed a tear I won't cage it<BR>I won't fear love<BR>and if I feel a rage I won't deny it<BR>I won't fear love<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>"Fumbling Towards Ecstasy"<BR>Sarah Mclachlan<P>

Bottom of the List --<P>If he's making you feel the way your name is, you guys got some work to do! No way should you feel anything less than "Top of the Mountain"!<P>I'm a betrayed male. No, we don't always "think with our other heads" as stated on an earlier post. Yes, I think we guys enjoy looking at a beatiful woman, but I also know my wife loves to look at Kevin Cosner, Harrison Ford, etc. It's part of life. But, lusting after every one of them is where it creates a hurtful environment in your mariage. It is NOT part of normal life.<P>Not sure if you guys are going to counseling, or what the details of the problems are. But, rest assured, there is pain on both sides of the betrayer/betrayed relationship. I know others will disagree, but in my limited time here, betrayed seem to feel most pain, betrayers most suffering. There is a difference.<P>Betrayed grapple with the "why me?" question and having to try to relearn how to trust again. Betrayers seem have the most challenge in cutting their emotional ties to the OM. Unformtunately for us (betrayed), they are often preoccupied with that issue early in the repair stage. Sucks, huh?<P>Perhaps you H hasn't gotten over the emotional with OM and is living it out through his leering? <P>If you want the marriage to work, it's tough work and the rollercoaster ride ain't fun. Let him know how you feel cause you need to keep the communication going. Try to stay positive, though. Hang in there!<P>-- keystone

This is one of those areas where I think the "honesty principle" does NOT apply.<P>Maybe most men DO think that way, maybe they don't. I know the men I work with, if they see a woman dressed "trampily" (if there is such a word), they go absolutely bonkers. She doesn't even have to be attractive or voluptuous, all she has to do is wear a short skirt or spike heels, and they're drooling like the wolf in the old Tex Avery cartoons.<P>I've seen my H look at other women, particularly those who look good in bathing suits while we're on vacation. He tries to be unobtrusive about it. At times, when things were less good between us, he'd be looking elsewhere while I was talking to him.<P>I know he looks. He's married, not dead. But that doesn't mean I want him telling me, "Yeah, she's hot, I want to do her."<P>I think, BOL, that your H is being a tad passive-aggressive with you. He insists that you satisfy him, and maybe you do, but he's saying these hurtful things to "get back at you" for forcing him to choose between you and OM.<P>If you two have discussed the MB principles, he may feel he owes it to you to tell you this. He may not know what is "good" honesty and what is "bad" honesty. At the very least, yes, this is insensitive. At most, he's TRYING to be hurtful.

After I confronted my husband about his relationship with this other woman, and gave him the ultimatum.. We were on track, but I was still hurt.<P>I did catch him glancing at a pretty woman now and again. This was like adding salt in my wound. Maybe he always did this, but I was just sensitive towards it now? I will never know.. I ignored it.. after all, I will glance at a handsome man. But just glance thats all.

He admits that lust is a weakness for him. He is extremely physically oriented. I do not feel we had a deep relationship before because I wasn't physically attractive to him. Since then I have had an abdominoplasty (tummytuck) to fix my pregnancy damage and I have also had implants. I am not even going to try to say I did this only for him. It has been wonderful for me too. I feel attractive for the first time ever. I do feel, however, that he is still unable to have feelings deeper than those of physical attraction. There is none of that love that will allow him to look at me when I am 80 years old and still think I am beautiful.<P>At this point I would settle for fake tears just to know that he isn't as thick as it appears he is. I have told him straight out what I need in order to heal and he can't give it to me. It has been a year and ahalf since I found out. I am no closer to making a decision than I was then.<P>I have been seeking councelling from my preacher. My H has talked to him too, but said he didn't help. He insists that he doesn't need help, but wants to seek help for me together. In other words, he is fine, but he wants to make sure I get straightened out.<P>He said that just because you are satisfied doesn't mean you aren't still tempted. I don't agree. I am not tempted in the areas I am satisfied only in the areas I am wanting. I am not tempted to have a sexual affair with another man, but I am tempted to leave and find a man that can truly love me.<P>He says he is completely satisfied sexually by me and feels I am attractive, but is hurt by my lack of love for him and that leaves an area of unsatisfaction in his life. How could wanting sex with a stranger satisfy that?

Sounds like your H has kind of immature ideas about love and sex. He seems to equate one with the other; that sex=love.<P>This is that old "attractive spouse" thing again. One of the things I loved about my H when we met is that when I asked him who his idea of an attractive woman was, he said "Linda Ellerbee." At the time, Linda Ellerbee was in her 40's, overweight, and one of the smartest newswomen around. Ahh....my kinda guy. <P>I think there's a difference between "attracted" and "tempted". It's the difference between looking at a painting in a museum and appreciating it on its own merits, and wanting desperately to have it hanging in your living room. Even in happy marriages, it's still possible to find other people attractive in an abstract, objective sense. But if you find yourself lusting after others all the time, there's obviously something wrong.<P>What does your H say when you talk to him about your concerns about getting older, that he won't find you attractive? I would have a hard time living with that. I think it's too bad that you have to think of the aftermath of having children as "damage." Your H is fixated in this media-image thing in which women have to look like movie stars and be young in order to be sexually attracted. And that "he's very sexually oriented" is just a cop-out. I'm sexually oriented too, and you don't see me wanting to jump every guy that crosses my path.<P>In order to be married to this guy, you are going to have to be able to nurture yourself, to get your self esteem from within, because I don't think he's not going to be able to give it to you. He's probably very insecure about his own sexual attractiveness.

I don't think that way. I won't say that I don't look when I find a woman attractive because I equate it to admiring the beauty that God has placed in everything and everyone. Even the most plain looking person has a beauty in them that is in no other person.<P>Your H has little compassion for you because he thinks that there is nothing significant about what he has done. What I mean by this is that he doesn't feel it. He understands it and can relate to it but he doesn't feel it. It took me a while to understand that feeling something, relating to something, and understanding something are three separate perspectives. Feeling something is not easy when you are trying to relate to someone else. You actually don feel it until you live it in some fashion to fully understand.<P>My W can't understand, relate, or feel the pain she has caused me. I feel where you are coming from.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

I guess we would hope they feel bad for hurting us in this way, but it may not happen.<P>Prayerfully & hopefully, sometime, they <I>should</I> learn not to Love Bust at all.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A>

Dear Dazed:<P>You are exactly right about him being insecure and having a low self-esteem and it is something he is aware of and admits to himself and me.<P>When I express my concerns about growing old he just tells me that he wants me to help him become the type of person that can still love me. He doesn't even try to deny that at this point he isn't capable.<BR>

Silly questions:<P>How long have you two been married? Kids?<BR>What was it that originally attracted you to each other?<P>It just seems that he's lost all connections to what brought you two together in the first place!<P>-- keystone

We have been married for 15 years. We have 3 children 2 boys and 1 girl ranging from 5 to 12.<P>I have always been very physically attracted to him, but have struggled with resenting his looks because I believed I would feel better about myself if he wasn't so physically fit.<P>I resented his weithtlifting and ability to eat whatever and still look great. <P>He resented my resentment and felt that I didn't find him attractive.<P>We both messed up tremendously on our marriage. I understand that, but why does he seem to keep messing up so badly on our reconciliation?<P>I know now that I am a person worthy of being loved. It was something I didn't realize for a long time. I want to know love. Should I be expected to have to teach my husband how to love not just me, but to love in general.<P>I have told him what I need and even with detailed instructions he either can't comprehend it or can't achieve it and I don't know what to do about it. I cannot live the rest of my life with a man who can't feel anything but lust, anger and adrenaline. I know now I deserve better than that.

As a man who has been betrayed, I find it hard to be objective. Anytime I hear of a spouse thinking about another person it raises a red flag to me. <P>But I don't think you need to worry too much about your H's fantasies. But DON'T tell him that. But, what worries me the most is his need to burden you with them... especiall under the circumstances.<P>Most men admire beautiful women. I'm sure many men occassionaly have flashes of inappropriate images. I think a person with any character and will power at all can shrug these images off and enjoy the overwelming pleasure of being with someone they love for so MANY reasons other than "images." <BR>It sounds like your husband IS able to "shrug off" those images. He's just disturbed that he has them. That might actually be a positive thing. <P>What bothers me the most is his apparent insensitivity. After what the two of you have been through, he shouldn't burden you with this. Does he think you're made of steel? My guess is that you've been VERY understanding in the past and he's found great relief in opening up to you. Great for HIM. But there are somethings that he needn't worry you about. <P>HONESTLY: Most guys (I think...) have at least passing micro-fantasies on occassion. But very few would think of mentioning them to their wives. It's insensitive and gives the thoughts more importance than they deserve. <P>If, in fact, these flashing images are the extent of his fantasies, he is normal. If they are a formulation of a plan then he needs to talk to someone about it. If he realizes that "beautiful" women are a weakness, he should be aware of the dangers of putting himself in a position that makes living out these fantasies possible.

Declan:<P>Like that name. Must be a Jewish thing; I've always liked Celtic names. I guess they're exotic or something <P>I think the issue is the difference between admiring attractive people and have sexual fantasies about them all the time. I mean, I look at cute 25-year-old actors too. But I do NOT fantasize about having sex with them. They're pretty. That's it.<P>What bothers me about BOL's H is this:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>he wants me to help him become the type of person that can still love me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Say what? Sounds like BOL's H is abdicating his own responsibility for his own reactions and behaviors. Only HE can become a particular type of person. By phrasing it like this, he can then blame her if he DOESN'T become that kind of person. If he feels he's shallow, it's up to HIM to change himself, not up to her. I mean, she can only be 25 for so long. It's not reasonable to expect her to look 25 when she's 80.<P>I would never have married a weightlifter or fitness buff. I'm not one, and I don't want one. I'd rather have a guy who spends his time exercising his mind than lifting heavy things in a gym, or DRIVING to a gym so he can RUN on a treadmill.<P>BOL, do you think you could persuade your husband that being worthy isn't about having six-pack abs and bulging biceps, it's about what's in your HEART?

Sorry. I know this is the wrong apparoach since we all want to remain positive but -- <P>WHAT AN INSENSITIVE A$$H$$$!<P>What's he going to do when he starts to show a bit more around the middle? Lose some hair on top? Not have the perfect tan? Superficial? You bet!<P>Okay, got that off my mind...<P>I don't know if you can teach anyone how to love you if there was never anything there in the first place. If there was something there, you've got to find it. Was he always so conscious of his/yours/everyone's physical being? How about their mental and emotional well being? What's going to happen when he finds HIMSELF not as physically attractive as he once was in younger days?<P>Sounds like counseling is in order. First maybe just you alone. You're going to have to get some strength and confidence back yourself before you can deal with your H.<BR> -- keystone

I do not feel that his attitude about weightlifting will ever change. His father is overweight and very unhealthy. My H has made comments to me that the mere sight of fat makes him physically ill.<P>Someone made a comment that I may have been too understanding. I feel this is very true. Upon finding out about the affair, I immediately prayed that the Lord give me the strength to keep my husband and win him back. A listened to him talk about his love for this other woman. I didn't deprive him, instead I set out to satisfy all of his needs. Within days we were sharing a bed and working on increasing communication and affection. This was even before we read Dr. Harley's book. <P>There was never a time when he really had to try to win me back. I'm not saying I was able to forgive him immediately, I just tried to act like I did. I sometimes feel I will never be able to fully forgive him while I am still with him. I just wonder if I had moved out atleast temporarily if it might have just shocked him into action instead of letting him feel so safe and relieved. It might have also given me the chance to forgive and then maybe I could have made the decision to come back instead of just deciding to spend over a year not deciding.