Yes As I told Sunny D this is not your typical plan b, but it is prescribed by SH. We were in amazing recovery...long story and it is too late.

Actually I 90% believe dh is not in affair or effected by still seeing OW occasionally in passing.

When he started decline he disconnected from me, his dad and brother, God, and the kids. I remind myself I am in good company and to not take it too personally.

He should not be seeing ow at all

You don't mean Steve Harley, do you? Because you could never recover if there was ANY contact between the OW and your husband. Every contact would put him - and you - back to day 1 of recovery. It would be like an alcoholic having "occasional drinks." He would never ever sober up.

And Plan B is no contact at all. Yes, Dr Harley recommends the very occasional "olive branch" but that is sent through an IM every 6 months ago.

Do you have spy techniques in place to see what your husband is doing?

I am really confused about your plan because it doesn't resemble Marriage Builders. If Steve told you that continued "occasional" contact between the OW and your husband is ok, then why did Steve tell you to go into Plan B?

This is like asking a falling down drunk if he thinks that alcohol has a bearing on his attitude. Do you think you would get a rational response?

Your response to him should be this:

From the new book by Dr. Harley Effective Marriage Counseling pg 94:

"Granted, there are situations when demands may be necessary in marriage. During a spouse's affair, for example, I recommend that the betrayed spouse demand there be no contact with the lover. If there is continued contact, separation or even divorce would be the logical consequence. While normally demands don't work, in this case there are no reasonable alternatives because thoughtful requests are even less likely to separate lovers."

I would stop "asking" a liar for the truth and find out on your own. Hire a PI and then bust him. Expose the affair. Go to him and DEMAND he end his affair. THAT is how you save a marriage. You don't ask if they agree, you DEMAND they end contact. Ending contact with his OW is NON-NEGOTIABLE.

And blueskies, you are not in Plan B, you are in Plan C, which is the most likely to lead to divorce. What you are doing is the WORST POSSIBLE thing for your marriage. Dr Harley explains why here in this radio clip: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2798

Please read.
BSs....Plan C is NOT a Plan

I would agree with you for these reasons:

1) I begged to leave NM, early in our marriage, because I was so unhappy there(darn if I don't love the place now) He didn't listen instead he had an affair bc he had a "bad" marriage and was helping out a coworker in a "bad" marriage.

2)He is such a "good guy" he seems to always manage to be above the law and never thinks he needs to apply all the rules. He doesn't need to try. People just like him and do it for him.

3)His friend who tries to counsel him gave me updates this summer. After all this time...he still seems to be talking more about his "big mistake" instead of us and moving on. I know he became very unhappy and switched days off in the middle of the year (not that easy to pull off- you have to do a trade). We discussed it nicely. Then one day it dawned on me perhaps "She" was the reason. Sure enough he said she switched her days off and he had to see her in passing more, which he hated, so he switched to escape that torment. The fact he was never up front about that from the get go made me loose trust.

He is very slippery.

I am going to bring this up with Steve about the OW. And I am going to call the work mate.

Funny how when you bare your soul to others you see things that should have been obvious before.

Have you exposed the affair to the workplace and all of your friends and family? The reason your husband does not change is because he has no motivation to change.

Dr. Harley recommends exposing the affair everywhere. I see so many things you are not doing that could save your marriage.

Affairs thrive on secrecy, so keeping it a secret only serves to enable the affair.

And blueskies, you are not in Plan B, you are in Plan C, which is the most likely to lead to divorce. What you are doing is the WORST POSSIBLE thing for your marriage. Dr Harley explains why here in this radio clip: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2798 [/quote]

I agree it does sound like I am in a plan C. Will discuss with SH.

Hind site is 20/20. Wish I had followed through better back in 2008. Wish I had paid for more SH consistently in 2008 when things started going south. It was so gradual though and he was not in an affair.

Concentrated, consistent efforts and more radical follow through would have been much more profitable than dragging this all out. Cost the same financially in regards to coaching cost and second housing cost...but a huge loss in regards to how this is ending.

Let me explain dh dynamic: recovery. He was meeting my needs had become an amazing person inside and out, to me and everyone we met including strangers (which was a big deal). He even took charge of reading school bulletins and signed up right away first person on the list to volunteer. THAT WAS NOT EVEN MY GOOD HUSBAND BEFORE THE A! I could tell him I was hurting and he didn't get mad. He would just keep speaking truth to me.."face it and replace it" a tatic from porn recovery. By the time he recovered, I was worn out and ready to give up...he pulled me back into the marriage..and into our house with him...which was alluring since school was starting and our summer house sitting haven would end.

Here is the one thing he did NOT do. Although he had become such a happy person, being free of a hidden life of porn and affair was awful. He,to my amazement, didn't seem to recover spiritually. So when he begged me back...I looked him the eye and said, "Don't come back to me if you are going to gradually take our family in a new direction." He knew what I meant. He promised me he would read the bible with me everyday (even I knew everyday was not practically going to happen). He never kept that promise, not even a little. It became a sore spot with us along with not every filling out the calendar for UA. "But we are DOING UA", he would say. What is more is he pretends, even I would say lies about spiritual stuff. He says things in a bible study (not often just enough to look like he isn't participating} "that is why we need to have a time with the Lord every morning" --what ???? I asked why did you say that? You don't do that? He said he knows what is right. He asked, "Are you going to get mad at me for saying something that is true?" But you implied you do it. "I never said I did it"

I would have much rather have a honest guy who didn't go to church meetings and met my needs honestly and with POJA and UA than have a guy who is protective lying to cover his integrity.

I think he truly recovered up to a point, but he didn't take the next steps, one of which (from porn addiction) was to help someone who is struggling. He won't loose his integrity. okay I know this is too spiritual for some...but David after his fall when he finally confessed up said, "Against you God only have I sinned" He didn't mean he didn't hurt other people. He meant the real person to make up to first and foremost was God. Samson Society has hundreds and hundreds of followers on their site...all fighting to keep their purity with their wives and
to themselves, if they are still single. The one mantra among those men when counseling other men struggling with addictions, weather it be an affair, porn, drugs....Is that you FIRST have to recover yourself ...you can not try to recover your family without recovering yourself first...it will be a house of cards.

dh recovery was dynamic. It seemed going back was safe.
This is the plan B I am following now....not the plan B I did back when he was going through withdraws.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8111_quit.html

I'm glad that you have been able to relate to my thread. My H and I have come a long way in 2 years! We certainly haven't been perfect but we've had the right attitude about where we wanted our marriage to be and how to get there.

It was very important, especially in the early times of my circumstances, to listen to those who had been there before. I, like so many other BS's, thought MY situation was somehow different. It wasn't. I'm glad I trusted people who advised me, especially when I (again, like most BS's) was so fearful at times.

So, you were in recovery and it was going well? Were you and your H following the plan exactly? Did you stop (one or both of you) following MB?

I guess I need to read through again - to piece together what has happened.

Regardless, you will need to get your ducks in a row and make a REAL plan and follow it. I've seen it time and time again where an "almost plan B" is implemented, it just leads to frustration and no recovery. In fact, it makes things worse than before because the WS knows you aren't serious about consequences AND it does not allow the BS to heal - but to stay stuck.

Yes to work, to family, to mature folks at church, not public announcement or anything. I tell you SH was super convinced it was over for him with OW. She yelled at him publicly at work. Which I loved : D !!! He had to go through retraining for 3 months to learn to do an entirely new job which was not easy after 15 yrs just to get to another place at the facility away from her.

I think leaving the state (only option for his employment) would have been nice and perhaps we would be further along. Maybe not...there seems to be other issues to deal with...

yes I need a real plan...yes to consequences...yes me living in fear enables him.

I can't tell you how grateful I am for this site. It is helping me to see things more clearly for sure. SH can only go on what I tell him in a 45 min. Maybe my "telling" is a bit off...

Back on page 2 of this thread I copied a reply I wanted to send but didn't. It starts...."You told me I am making huge deposits. You continued to be angry. You never said I love you I want you back."

Well I saved it in drafts in gmail...forgetting that drafts show up on his side (we share an email account). I was so happy this morning that I didn't send it. My plan was to not reply at all.

He responded..."When did I say you were making huge deposits?"

My reply:
I believe I saved that as a draft and chose to vent for my self and not send that email. I didn't remember that drafts show up on your side with gmail.

My choice would have been not to send that reply at all. It didn't accomplish anything except for me to be able to vent.

Huge withdraws is what you said, not deposits. My typo while venting. I am not interested in fighting over a letter I did not intend to send however I would be interested in us talking to Steve... something forward (even if a jerky forward movement) would be better than stuck where we are.

bluesky, this doesn't sound like anything i've read of the harley's, and i have counselled with sh myself. in regard to your unsent letter, i don't see why you are still arguing about the past - you are not supposed to keep talking about the past. really, nothing in your thread sounds like MB at all, except for the terms you're using.

and lastly, i am very, very confused at what is going on with your M; whether you to are even together, never mind working towards recovery. i can tell you're definitely *not* in recovery. i agree with mel that you're in plan c, which is why you're so desperately unhappy right now.

could you please rely to the following with short, succinct sentences?

1. is your husband's affair dead?
2. do you have NC? (not if he sees her, even from afar. but did he write a NC letter that you approved and posted?)
3. was the OWH informed of their affair?
4. are you living in the same home w/your husband?
5. when was the last time you spoke with steve harley? how many times have you counselled with him? has your husband had appts, either with you or separate? how many and when was the last?
6. are you having any UA time?
7. if so, how much, and what are you doing?

could you please rely to the following with short, succinct sentences?

1. is your husband's affair dead? [/color]yes
2. do you have NC? (not if he sees her, even from afar. but did he write a NC letter that you approved and posted?)[color:#3333FF]Yes and SH approved
3. was the OWH informed of their affair?[/color]NO, OW and OWH divorced by the time I found out about affair.In fact I when I found out OW had left dh for another man. That is why I found out...bc he flipped out when he lost her and it became obvious something was really really wrong. Otherwise I could of gone my whole life not knowing. Plus she threatened to file charges against him at work if he or I talked about it to work or her family. I did contact OW months after DDay as a follow through to a demand he either get over her or I tell her she can have him. OW's new lover called to threaten me. After we done and he hear my side and was more aplogetic. Later I found out they no longer together.

4. are you living in the same home w/your husband? [color:#3333FF]No I am in plan b, out of state (plz see link I posted above the the correct discription of the plan B I am on)

5. when was the last time you spoke with steve harley? how many times have you counselled with him? has your husband had appts, either with you or separate? how many and when was the last? [/color] probably 15 plus since 2008, last was July, next is in 5 min. : D
6. are you having any UA time? [color:#3333FF] am allowed friendly over phone on this plan B but only if he decides a plan of recovery.
7. if so, how much, and what are you doing?

why in the world are all those weird "color" notations showing up !!!!

Yes Yes Yes.....Thank you Lord!!!

I texted dh just a bit ago to let him know it is not too late to join in talking to SH. He replied...sitting here....which is his way of saying YES!!!!!

Here's a tip;


When talking to your husband, drop the "SH says/let's ask SH about that/Don't know what SH will...."

Just because you are naming a Marriage Builders professional does not mean what you are doing is NOT a DJ.

My head wants to implode while reading it. I can't imagine how it makes your husband feel, regardless of your justifications for doing so.

uhhh...do I do that with dh??? Didn't think I did. Our conversations with SH are mostly seperate so that would be awkward for me the BS spouse to say that to the now reluctant spouse. I do it when answering you guys...


so this is awkward. I just got off phone and was going to let everyone know what SH said. Guess I shouldn't...uhmmmm I need to process this a bit....