Let me ask you this.

Knowing that the WS is foggy. Knowing that the A is active. Knowing that the WS is 'in deep' and you just find out. Cognizant of the fact that they have poor boundaries that lead to the A. Extrodinarily aware that you must plug the hole in the ship before R can begin�.

From a BS point of view; What is the REAL reason your LB balanced was drained with the WS? What would give them any motivation to look at the M again when they think they are �in love� with OP? What would give them ANY hope that things would be different in the future? Why shouldn�t they just throw in the towel now?

---EN�s and LB�s. THAT is the core reason why they fell out of love. That is at the core of why they would come back into the M. This is why it is critical to encourage posters on this forum to put equal effort into this area WHILE they kill the A.

I don�t know why you think I don�t �get� the fact that the A must die before you move into R. Believe me, I get it. I also �get� why my FWW fell back in love with me. EN�s and eliminating LB�s. That is the reason they are IN the A. They are getting their EN�s met outside the M.

Read the third note in my thread highlighted in my epilogue. I did the work that you are asking about, but it was not an "Okay, let's find out why you went outside the marriage, honey!" session.

I learned which EN elements were missing as a byproduct of the hundreds of delightful hours of "couch time" we spent in the year post d-night. (Delightful not because of the learning, but because of the re-ignition of the love for each other that occurred.) Somewhere on this site is a list of the most significant EN's for the "average" woman. Start attending to them, and look for the reactions you would want.

Unless she's a cave-woman (or a highly passionate, well-regarded poster here whose ne plus ultra is SF), her NUMBER ONE is probably IC. Bingo! Get to work. Talk some, listen much more. Ask the questions that will initiate the stream of discussion that she wants to have, but you have (yeah, yeah, you and EVERY man) discouraged from her by your distraction with work, TV, etc, etc.

It's likely that NUMBER TWO is affection. This one starts out sounding easy but branches out into myriad forms. Would she like a bunch of daisies once a week? How about romantic notes hidden in her lunch for work? A foot rub? (Imagine my shock at discovering that my painting her toenails was such a turn-on for her - and, eventually, for me!) Get to work, dude, and find out what winds her spring.

Family (financial) support, domestic support, etc will follow. somewhere in the canon. Raise your level of activity in each, and watch the results.

I am in no way shape or form implying you take ANY focus off of killing the A!


I get that 100%.


And, no I didn't misinterpret what Dr. Harley was saying. I heard it loud and clear.


I also wouldn't call identifying the EN's the WS is getting met outside the M and trying to do your best to meet them as minor grievances again WHILE you are killing the A.

Please don't twist my words.

I get what you are saying. But I think those questions would be better answered by some former wayward spouses.

**edit**

We all can add a lot of value here. Not just the senior folks.

In retrospect, I've come to realize how much time/energy I wasted...and boy was I frustrated and the LB getting low...because in the wake of dday, I rushed to simply focus on meeting ENs (what can I do to improve my marriage), instead of FIRST -- or atleast with the same gusto -- focusing on killing the affiar (what do I need to do to run off this POSOM?).

Embarrased to say that in my painful, traumatized state I think I reached first for the 'easier' path, one that meant...soothing might not be the right word...but that OVER or INSTEAD of the path the required more FIGHT.

Geez, I hope any of that made sense...

I'd add to this but what do I know, I'm just a cave woman.

I'd add to this but what do I know, I'm just a cave woman.

Point taken, and posting changed UW!
You're an idiot, NG!
Tell him something he doesn't already know!

Hi, 20year,

We focus on the reasons for marital breakdown here every day. In particular, it's crucially important for husbands to learn to meet their wives emotional needs. Even betrayed husbands have a lot to learn from listening to what wayward husbands are told here when they finally come out of their fog and have to learn to be a good husband.

I just listen to Dr. Harley frequently and try my best to post what I think he would say in each situation. Obviously different people are at different points in the process. As far as meeting needs in an active affair, expressing the willingness to meet needs should be a part of a Plan A, along with doing whatever you can. BUT, it should be recognized that the contrast effect of the affair makes success at this alone virtually impossible, which is why it is crucial to DISRUPT the affair. Only after the affair is disrupted and withdrawal is complete can recovery begin.

It's also VITAL to understand that women should NOT be told to go all out trying to meet a wayward husband's emotional needs. This is for their health. For men, it can sometimes be a good thing to suggest that they push themselves harder, and Dr. Harley frequently does this. For women, this should almost never be done!

I think immediately after D-Day, a BS is wonderful and great if they can be pleasant and refrain from huge LBs.

I recall about 3 months after D-day. It was H's last day at work. We had even practiced how he would respond if OW wanted to talk to him. And of course, she wanted to say good-bye. He trotted himself right outside for a "final" conversation. They exchanged how much they had loved each other (found out that nugget more than 2 years later). Then, my H tried to tell me on the phone that he didn't need to write a NC letter, because this is the way he always said good-bye when he left a place. At that point, for the first time in our 25 year marriage, I called my H a name - a "gaslighting POS" and hung up the phone. He wrote the NC letter that day. Of course, we ended up in a FR. He lied for a period of years and I had AOs for the same amount of time. Meanwhile, we were working on the home study MB program, examining how to meet each other's ENs and avoid LBs. He contacted OW via email and phone for a period of about 10 days, the extent of which he lied about for three months.

My point is that until the wayward spouse starts to come out of the fog and wants to commit to working on the marriage, a detailed analysis of ENs and LBs is not very productive and can be highly detrimental to the BS. I am just now beginning to recover from the physical, emotional, and mental damage.

Maybe, there is a gender difference. Dr. Harley often talks about men's ability to Plan A for far longer than women.

AM

Plan A is a combination of filling ENs, avoiding LBs and killing the A so I'm not sure why you think the EN/LB part is being neglected. Since I've been on MB, I have repeatedly heard that the BS needs to clean up his/her side of the street...which is the EN/LB part...so again, not sure why you say this part is avoided.

Filling ENs and avoiding LBs are no guarantee for Recovery. Some WSs are worse than others and have 'issues' where R is just not going to happen unless a BS lowers the bar and accepts crumbs. Some BSs also throw in the towel after trying for X period of time and that is their prerogative to do so.

I think I say things like that here every day, or practically every day.

I'm with you, HelpForDad. I see many more new BS's avoiding the stick part - exposure and snooping to kill the affair and verify - and I was one of them. I did not do nuclear exposure at d-day, which I justified by thinking Dr. Harley only advised it in case where the A was not ended. I had been assured by my WH that it had, and the snooping methods I had in place were not effective enough to see that it was ongoing.

Truth be told, I needed to focus much more on killing the A - full exposure and neutron snooping - than on the EN-meeting and LB-stopping. As a result, the A continued for another 5.5 months, becoming further entrenched. I agree with HelpForDad that the carrot part is the easier, more passive part. The stick part is the aggressive, more difficult part. And it is often counter-intuitive for BS's.

For 5.5 l-o-n-g months, I worked hard to meet the top male EN's. I knew the impact would be lessened since there was still ongoing "business contact" (snort), but I was surprised at really how little impact my hard work made. (Duh... The A was ongoing!) Which was exhausting and demoralizing. My over-focus on this area allowed me to be slack in the snooping part, and blind to red flags. About the only thing it did accomplish was to not have my WH fall further out of love with me.

However, perhaps a softer approach, such as "how to interact with your WS while you focus on killing the affair" would be helpful. I think the danger of having an equal focus on the carrot part is that many BS's will grab on to that. HelpForDad and I are two examples. The stick part is the bigger challenge for many of us.

Here I am doing it yesterday:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2668866#Post2668866

Suggesting the husband needs to focus on what her complaints were:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2669041#Post2669041

Simultaneously suggesting he needs to snoop and uncover evidence of an affair:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2669030#Post2669030

My take on it is that if you feel something is missing from what Dr. Harley would say in a situation, jump in and supply it yourself! We are not all experts on the entire program, and some of us are going to specialize in some areas as opposed to others.

(it is actually a alarmingly accurate description)

20 - one thing I think you see in posting is that many veteran posters have a 'niche' (and even some of us non veterans who have just been around a few months). ML for instance, is a bust up the affair and expose guru. We have some Plan B guru's, IG and Scottie and Caracal. NG...well his job is to make sure we all know how to use a dictionary and thesaurus well. I (one of the non vets, of course), over time have learned to steer clear of Plan A and Plan B advice, because I have not been in that circumstance, but I do weigh in heavily on things like polygraphs, RH, etc. So, I think that based on who responds to new posters, who happens to initially be online, you will see the responses weight toward that posters 'niche' too. And that's a good thing! How many A's would NOT have been busted up if not for ML's delightful knack at pounding in exposure?

So I don't think anyone fails to focus on EN building, but those people who respond to many of the new people coming on here are fire fighters. Fighting the fire first and foremost.

Plus, I can't imagine the wealth of information that you can be bombarded with when you first come here. Investigate! Expose! Plan A! Don't forget the STICK! Get ready in 24 hrs to Plan B! Can you say, overwhelming? (Notice I put investigate and expose first here, to demonstrate that it is an ordered process). I think throwing in discussion about what in the marriage led to the WS's adultery can be problematic at such a volitile and overwhelming stage, personally.

EN's are obviously VERY important to rebuild a marriage, but I also do not think that it is a good time to delve into them much, when flames are still shootin up over the house.

Just my .02.

After reading these responses I am shocked (ok..not so much) that there isn't much retrospective analysis of the people on this board to consider there might be a 1% chance I am onto something here.

The point now has been lost and my words are being twisted. I understand MB very well. Not an expert...but pretty darn knowledgeable. Many here come off as always being right and don't need to be told we can all improve.

I hope you are not conducting yourselves in your M the same way. DJ's abound here on this thread. Too bad...

Each of us has something we can learn from everyone in our environment. None of us are perfect.

Yep. You are all RIGHT on target every time. Congratulations!!!

DJ..my bad..

Are you selectively reading?

Never one time did I mention that exposure and breaking up the A wasn't CRITICAL to the process.

In fact I emphasized it numerous times.


People, please read what is being written vs. interpreting the way you want to read it.

Come on..you are better than that.

If I am than I apologize. I will drop the subject now.

I did not say everyone misses the EN portion Makos. Many do hit it..some don't. I happen to think it is very important to this board.

Just bringing the topic to the forefront for an intelligent discussion for those who wish to chime in. That�s all.