But no courted girlfriend would propose a marriage free of SF to her suitor.

Its pure fogbabble. Treat her as someone still drunk on the high of the A. She's still hankering after those unrealistic ideals.

Keep your phrases brief and catchy because her brain is too fogged to remember much. You're talking to a drunk.

Make them short and repetitive. Be a broken record.

we were sitting down eating and my back was to him. she didnt say anything until he exited. but she told me she'd seen him.

she said the other night she doesn't want to "negotiate" her body, referring to dr harley's counsel to negotiate everything you have in conflict.

i mean thats part of marriage. 2 becoming 1. physically, emotionally, spiritually, financially in ALL aspects.

Here is a Dr Harley post from the private forum that I think fits your situation to a tee. The background is a long marriage where the wife had an affair early on and then another lasting two years, more recently. The affair should be over but there is some foggy behaviour/speech taking place, and the WW refuses to have sex with the H or to apply herself to the online MB programme (the one with the coach and the direct access to Dr Harley).

Dr Harley can't wave a magic wand to make reluctant spouses engage in the MB programme, and neither can we. But as he says, if a reluctant spouse refuses to apply all parts of the recovery programme after an affair, recovery will not happen.

If your wife is refusing to apply some parts of the recovery programme, then you might stay together but you, n_m, will not feel recovered.

How do you feel about your prospects of remaining in a marriage like that?

Hmmmmmmm...maybe she did see him, maybe not. I can see her lying about an OM sighting so she can use that as another excuse to avoid SF...new contact = new withdrawal. Seeing him would suck. Your WW lying would suck. Sadly I would not rule out that possibility since I do not think your WW is honest with you.


Your WW makes no effort because she doesn't have to. She has nothing to lose the way things stand. If you have a keylogger and are confident that NC is in place...well check your bases one more time to be double sure. Whatever is going on with your WW, she is being dishonest and is manipulative. Her selectively invoking religion like she is now the blessed mother (lower case intentional) or something is insulting. The parts about forgiveness and being a dutiful wife (for lack of a better term) must have conveniently slipped her mind.

Raise the bar, NM. If you settle, that will be your doing. Nothing has changed in months. Your WW is all talk.

I've had a keylogger on her phone and computer. What she tells me always matches up. She's always been a rather honest person(to a fault sometimes) other than with this deception. Even the first OM, where it started and ended with a kiss, she told me about it immediately. I'm 99.9% sure she hasn't seen or heard from the DB in any capacity other than what she has told me. She's gone a long way in building up my trust in that regard. However, I don't feel recovered because I feel neglected. I'm certainly not having my needs met. She's honestly expressed she cares for me, but doesn't have the 'feelings she ought to' for her husband. I mean she did try having sex 1 time with me to satisfy her own craving and to experiment on her feelings for me. She said it was difficult for her and purely physical. It was the night before the chance encounter at the store(she saw him, he didn't see her). Which has made me feel even doubly more frustrated. I thought we were turning a corner and I find out we're at the wrong building. I saw her visibly withdraw the next day and go straight back into fog babble. However, she's honestly, bounced back towards me more quickly. She cuddled with me last night. She's engaged in intimate conversation, she wants to plan our date out for tonight, she wants the courtship with me. She wants my companionship, she talked dreams of our future together and things she'd like to do with me(i.e. travel) when our kids our grown.
Things aren't as bleak as I sometimes may feel they are, but it's through the scope of not having my needs met. My wife admitting to me she's not 'in love' with me. I've been a pretty attentive husband for most the marriage. Things were rough during school which dominated a lot of my time, effort and energies. I've been reasonably good at meeting needs of Aff, RC, FC, and FS for most our marriage. I know i've lagged in being O&H with my feelings mostly, that I haven't given her adequate feedback. I was self-sacrificial in this way, I'm doing better at expressing my thoughts and feelings to her even though they're unpleasant to her sometimes and learning to do it better in a non-lovebusting way.

She's doing the home study program, read SAA and is now reading a book on sexual fulfillment in marriage. She's making efforts and knows she wants a good marriage because she wants our kids to see good examples there. She just doesn't think my desire for sexual fulfillment are pure and worthy. That it shouldn't be that important to me. She doesn't understand my perspective on it. I try to explain it to her, but she shuts down the conversation after a few minutes. That's the impasse. So I'm not going to throw away all that's been built up at this point. It does feel like we often take a few steps forward and then experience a set-back. There's so much more to our dynamic than just me and her. I want this for our kids. There's more than the options of divorce or paralleled marriage. There is the way to build a good marriage. I know I've expressed my impatience, and I am. I can't stand the fact that our marriage is where it's at. I instinctively want to fix the problem. I hate it when things don't work and I can't tolerate when our relationship isn't working. Divorce really isn't an option for me. I'm not letting myself out that easy by considering. It impedes our ability to brainstorm the solution. We're absolutely compatible in our faith, our kids, our interests, and in each other.

I know she's trying, but I'm trying to push, without being pushy. I'm trying to hold firm, without being rigid. I'm trying to love, without compromising. It's a fine line. And I'm learning how to walk it.

The other posters are right about you not settling for less than a true recovery. Plan A for men is six months, so how long have you been Plan Aing and when would you hit that 6mo deadline?



"You are so right, my love. Sex should be enthusiastic. If we don't find a way to have an enthusiastic sexual connection, then we won't have a marriage"

She IS right too!

so i had a positive conversation with my wife last night. we decided to let her brother stay with us a couple months, so hes here now. we thought it would be a good idea so we could have help with the twins. also this may allow us to go out more regularly after the kids go to bed, built in baby sitter. my wife told him everything about the affair and he said, he think this is why he needs to be here right now and is willing to do whatever it takes to help us out. my wife told him everything on her own terms. she felt it would be helpful for us if he knew and also as a safeguard for herself after i go back to work. he works from home so he'll always be there for the next while. i think it was helpful for her to get another male perspective on things. I'm NOT crazy, just male.

my wife also said if I re-labeld my emotional need as physical touch it would help her and she understands that more as a need. as far as UA time goes we probably got about 17-18 hours this past week, most RC and and IC/OH.

my wife said some things to me the other night that helped me. she said im still her choice. she thinks she needs professional help in regards to SF. but she seems to be in a better place after her talk last night.

Had a big up and down week this week. My wife and I have had a LOT of conversations, mostly good, some bad too. Last week we got a little over 15 hours of UA time. This week has been tougher because me and my boys got the stomach flu for about 5 days. It took it's toll for sure. But we've still been able to talk about life, hopes, dreams and conficts quite a bit.

I need help though. My wife just doesn't believe that 15-20 hours is a realistic goal for UA time as Dr. Harley defines it. She's still willing to do the Home Study course, but the enthusiasm isn't there. She likes most things from it, but she says, "You're in Dr. Harley's back pocket". She thinks the goal of UA time is unrealistic for our situation. She says she's willing to do whatever it takes, but doesn't think the goal as defined by Dr. H. is reachable and she wants to set 'realistic' goals. She thinks we should start at a lower number and work our way up, especially with our twins being so young.

I don't need anyone telling me my wife is this, that or the other, however, I am seeking advice on how to help persuade her of the idea that 20 hours IS possible. I keep suggesting 8-11 every night = 21 hours. If we fall short we're still +15 hours on a bad week. But I keep establishing that I don't want to lower the bar. She says it places an immense amount of pressure on her to keep shooting for an 'unrealistic' expectation of 15-20 hours. She keeps saying she thinks maybe 10 hours, or the time we spend with our kids present should count. I tell her it doesn't. It frustrates her. I think she feels the program is too rigid for her to desire continuing it. Any advice here. She's not open to calling the Harley's or doing the online accountability at this time, I've asked.

Have you sat down and made a schedule together so she can see?

Family time can also be met plus your UA time.

What about time on the weekend?

This tells me she doesn't get it and this concept needs to be explained to her in another way. The MB program is not rigid at all. You don't have to spend 2 seconds together. You don't have to do a damn thing. It is all voluntary. MB doesn't have any rules that anyone can be held to. NONE.

But...if your goal is to fall in love again, you have to spend 20-25 hours of UA time together. Not 10 and not 13, but 20+. Because that is what it takes.

*IF* you want to fall in love again, you must spend 20-25 hours of UA time. It takes 15 hours to MAINTAIN it.

There really is no point to spending 10 hours. What would be the point? If you aren't going to fall in love anyway why do it.

In other words, it is not a "rule" but a reality. In reality you need to spend that time together to create romantic love.


Quality does matter, so if your plan is to sit at home every night, it won't make as great an impact as if you went out.

So ask her, does she want to be in love again with you? If so, then 20+ hours is the ticket.

You're basically Plan Aing her to get her on board with a full recovery plan. Because right now she's in Plan 'Whatever is easiest for me'.

Plan A is very dependant upon you sticking to your guns but also giving the other person complete freedom of choice.

If she complains about pressure, rules or rigidity

"It is entirely up to you sweetheart"

"I don't want you to do anything without your full enthusiam"

"If you want to put 20 plus hours into our marriage, great! If not, that's entirely up to you"

However maintain that your GOAL is to get 20 hours plus and that remains your opinion. But of course, you respect hers.

Tell her you fear 10 hours/15 hours will not cut the mustard and that you think it will mean both of you will not move forward an inch. You think it will mean separation. But that you are willing to settle for what you can get short term.

"I want a romantic marriage where we are each others' FIRST priority" is not disrespectful to say. I dont care if she does classify it as pressured.

Take Mel's advice and continue to Plan A with as much QUALITY time as you can get. Plan A is not recovery and the same weekly timescales arent adhered to. You just show her what she can have if she gets on board.

Keep maintaining your position and offer her as many realistic time management solutions as she can handle.

thanks for the advice. i will heed it. we have planned our weeks and we'll do it again this week. i start my job tomorrow so fc time will drop substantially, but i'll push the ua time but be respectful to her wishes.

I'm curious what some of you would say to my wife about our situation. she wants a recovery but is unsure how to go about it. she is trying to balance reason with emotional response.

thanks for the advice. i will heed it. we have planned our weeks and we'll do it again this week. i start my job tomorrow so fc time will drop substantially, but i'll push the ua time but be respectful to her wishes.

I'm curious what some of you would say to my wife about our situation. she wants a recovery but is unsure how to go about it. she is trying to balance reason with emotional response.

Just my two cents, and for the other wives here seeking insights to their husbands: Sexual Fulfillment can be a significant emotional need for men. It seems while some women have libido's, others seem to have none at all, so they are not able to relate to a mans point of view, and get a very distorted, or nasty view of sex in general. Dr. Harley mentions several key points in his books, for which I am grateful to hear a sympathetic and accurate description.

As a man, it is emotionally important to me to be able to please my wife. If she is not happy with her life, then she's not happy in bed, and if she's not happy in bed, then I am unhappy. As mentioned here, women have many switches that have to be all on for her to relax and enjoy sex. It is especially difficult after kids when she has so many new things to worry about. The husband feels he is more and more "tuned-out", neglected, un-cared for, the last priority, so he may withdraw as well. She doesnt value his needs, so he cares less about meeting hers. This creates a downward demotivating spiral. This is where "Plan A" is intended to break this cycle and get the relationship back on an upward spiral, reinforcing good behaviors with good behaviors.

The challenge to women is to learn to enjoy sex with their husbands, learn to shut down their 'mental worry-list', be romantic and 'be in the moment', and have some fun.

My own two cents based on what I feel is missing in my SF.