"Of course my little muffin top. Whatever you wish. I will always listen to your requests. I would like some romantic texts and emails from you though, if you don't mind. It would make me feel like we are getting somewhere"

Ww "No way"

Dave "Oh I don't mean right now of course." (Leaves and is suddenly far too busy to chat any more"

She said no texts, so you switched methods. Just switch again!



Nooooo. Its your plan. Not hers. This sounds suspiciously like letting the drunk drive the bus.

But if she is telling me to not do flowers and txts then to continue to do these things would mean they become LB's wouldnt they?




I thought the exat same thing indie, no txts\facebook so i switch to email and love notes instead as she hasnt request i stop those.


I see where you are coming from but also if she is willing to start to consider looking at recovery as she is saying then we have to negoiate things otherwise i would just be LBing and at least she is startring to tell me things now rather than me having to guess.


_ think this is a case of what i have done so far has created that confussion in her head, remember at the start of august we were in the firm position of her wanting a divorce and walking out, after the changes i have been making and EN fufilling its changed that thinking.



As above its created that confusion now.

This is something she came out and said, that its all too much, too soon, and feels too fake for her to accept it. So that rather than believe it she said it scares her and makes her withdraw because it will all disappear. She would rrather things change more slowly and in a more natural way.

Also i can definately say the OM is out of the picture 110% now we have moved to a stage of the A been dead and this is now more about getting her to accept changes and commit to a full R in a natural way. The counciller stressed that we both need to start fufilling needs but slowly, using the 5 love languages (which she did mention to WW) the counciller said to start whilst we arent speaking each other language what needs to happen to start is we both speak a neutral language so that we both feel safe and secure together and suggested we do more family things as well.

one of the things i asked for was that WW stopping going and living in the spare room as soon as our son has gone to bed and at least spend some time alone with me. She agreed to this and last night she did actually do it as well, so whilst only a small step it is a positive step and she did it and agreed she will do this everynight now. We plan to do more negotationing in our next session as well as we run out of time last night. I do have a solo session with the councilling at the begging of next week and want to bring up that as part of the negeotations for R that there is both positive and negative rules. As i dont want this to be a case of WW saying i dont want x,y,c and me saying i want you to do a,b,c. This has to be positive\negative for us both so that she is asking me to do something and not do other and i am able to make the same reqeusts as well.

well thigns seem a little more relaxed and less tense today, have been able to have some nicer more natural conversation (just idle chit chat) but the air between us seems to have lifted somewhat am still in plan A and dont expect anything from her but i sense she is a little calmer after our last councilling session.

She's a whirlwind, Dave take nothing for granted until you get 100 per cent all clear signals.

When its calm, its merely the eye of the storm.


You haven't changed her mindset at all. That is a dangerous assumption. All waywards love ENs and hate commitment, responsibility and work. You have created a situation in KEEPING with her mindset, not changed it. She's reveLling in the needs she's getting but still does not want to reciprocate. She will veer all the time in order to keep you in line and expecting very little from her. A quiet period only gives a dramatic period more punch.

I don't know much about the love languages. How will you continue to meet ENs now she's ruled out some methods?

I see lots of carrot in Plan A, but I don't see much 'stick'. What stick is being used?

I don't want her getting the idea she can freewheel through this and that you will be a doormat.

not so much changed her mindset but created the confussion in it is more what i feel. Whilst i accept and understand about her not starting to fufill my needs and effectively fully recover she has committed to start spending some time alone with me now and also to start working on things. Basically what we started and will continue in our next session is a lot more POJA on the realtionship and that is from both of our sides. The intention will be to continuely review and add to it as well and not some oneoff exercise.

The love language as has already been mentioned is basically just another way of grouping together EN's really. Interesting yoru mention her ruling out some method becuase she didnt actually rule them out (much like you told me in the past that she doesnt actually want them to stop) all she has asked is that the frequency of the method be reduced. There was no mention of emails/cards/notes at all so still have all of those available. Also nothing about the little love hearts etc was mentioned or other sweets i have left for her. In terms of flowers what she asked is that i dont get the bouquets devlivered to her work etc, so doesnt stop the small supermarket or even some hand picked ones either.

In terms of stick i have told her i will not continue for ever and that i will D her etc, she certainlying is aware from the counciller that a relationship is 50:50 and the problems are 50:50 and that it takes both of her. I accept initially that its starting from 90:10 as i plan A but things will and do have to change on that.

There are a couple of other things as well i have to bring up in my solo councilling session, mainly cause they go through my head reagrding things in the past that happened that i now have a better understanding of.

Sounds good. Remember she is only concerned with what's in it for her until her brain is freed.

yes i know and i do feel strangly more calm and upbeat as well and she has started at least to be a little more friendly and chatty with me

feeling a bit down\p155sed off this morning, wife went out last night with a mutual friend for her birthday and stopped there which i didnt have any issues with, i sent her a txt before i went ot bed just saying hope she had a good night etc and got no response to it which i didnt expect.

this morning i got up and resisted txting etc but noticed she had been on facebook at 8am and also several up until 10:30am still i had resisted txt\messages etc. Since our son is away they have been tweeting about things they doing but seen nothing about our sons group and wasnt sure if my twitter app was actually working. So i sent my wife the following message on facebook as was chatting to someone else and notice she was online.

"morning hope yoru head not too bad lol, have you seen any tweets about group1 not sure if my app is working, what did you want ot do for lunch\dinner ? missed u x."

She has read the message but still no response from her and now i just feel like sh1t. If she cant even respond to a very simple message like that etc i am not even been treated like a human being. I don thave a clue what time she plans to get back home, i could explode the way i feel as on one hand she says she "cares" etc and then on the other she cant even do this. I feel like when she does finally get home not even speaking to her unless she speaks first but am guessing that is what she wants me to do.

Dave there are red flags all over the place here. I thought you were monitoring her internet? Can't you see who she's been facebooking and tweeting?

And her staying out overnight is a huge hole in your plan. If she does it, she does it, but she should know that kind of IB will earn her an unfriendly divorce.

I would put the carrot in a drawer for today and get out the stick.

No arguments, no AOs, but I think we need to see an assertive line drawn in the sand.

Women don't love doormats, Dave. They just get taken for a ride.

Why can't you see her internet activity? Is she on a friends computer or her phone?

Considering you've also exposed to your son, I'm amazed she would do something so thoughtless and inconsiderate to you both.

Is your son worried this morning?

Yes i am and she not facebooking anyone apart from some female friend, she isnt tweeting the place our son is at with school have tweeting updates as they do things.

I didn thave an issue with it indie has she had gone to femal friends for her birthday who live around 35miles away they had a meeal and then drinks (girly night) so no way she could drive and like i say i didn thave an issue with it.



What stick you suggest i use\apply to her, she has just got home and i refused to be the first to speak and let her initiate things. Am definately not intending to commit and LB's just feel a little miffed of that she couldnt reply. How would you suggest and assertive line ? and i certainly dont want to be a doormat at all.

I can see her activity and everything she done on her phone and nothing untoward in it either internet or txt etc, i guess given things i get very anxious over everythign even though i know i shouldnt. I really feel like saying to her why couldnt she have replied to my message on facebook etc since she been up since 8am, or would that be an LB to say that to her?

- lol probably not indie as he isnt here he is away with the school on an adventure weekend.

Dave you SHOULD have an issue with overnights!!!! You two are in recovery from MULTIPLE affairs.

These IB rules are what led to the As in the first place.

You need a healthy, INTEGRATED life together.

Did you know beforehand that was going to happen?

Fair point

indie I don't think we are in recovery yet, I think it's more like I am sat in the recovery room and whe is stood at the open door and has one foot in but hasn't decided whether she is going to fully walk into the room yet. I know and recognize things but she doesn't yet and yes UA and integrated time is what is needed. The counciller said in the session that a good starting point is that we start spending and doing more as a family all together been integrated etc

Fair point to what?

Fair point to your son being away! I missed that.

While I appreciate you aren't in recovery yet, a Plan A spouse proudly waves the recovery flag and ALL that entails.

If she doesn't know what recovery conditions ARE, how can she possibly got on board?

A plan A spouse says:"There are to be no OS friends, no nights apart, a minimum of x UA time...."

WS says: "No way"

BS says: "You get time to decide, my love, but ultimately this is what needs to happen".

The problem with waving her off last night and approving a night apart is she now feels overnighters are OK with your blessing. When she is away from you the temptation to contact OM will be at its height.

I went on a night out with a wayward live-in girlfriend once. She spent entire night texting/calling the other guy. She was horrible company to the birthday girl and she prob thought she was being discreet! I still wonder whether that was her full time phone or an affair phone.

I assume she carried on texting him throughout the night, because his GF would have been asleep. Those are the golden hours for cheaters.


Even if you spot her breaking NC with your snooping tools, the damage will be already done. If NC is breached she returns to Day ONE of withdrawal.

Not to mention there are other men who she has courted attention from she could easily find on Twitter or FB. She is an addict just as much as if she were alcoholic or taking drugs. You need to get serious.

Was FB a key tool/start of the A with OM? Strictly speaking a solo FB account as opposed to a joint one is a bad idea for married people.

Remember Plan A is supposed to instill a sense of respect for you in her, not just a sense that you're cuddly and sweet.

It may be time to present her with your MB conditions for recovery, but the standard letter will need tweaking to take account that you are a WS too.

She will say no, but that doesn't matter. What matters is you are being assertive and giving her fair warning long before Plan B.

ok now here is the thing that gets me, she is doing some baking again. On Friday before our son left for the weekend she said to him did he want her to make any white chocolate cookies again for when he gets back and he said no. I chipped in an mmmmmm i love the mint chocolate ones you bake haven't had them for a while and left it at that. So guess what shes baking........


yes mint choc cookies, so i just been out for a 30 min drive (needed some space and to clear my head), before i went i casually said to her "if you want to make some cheese scones i would really like that" so i just got back and made myself a coffee and guess what she has the recipe out for and ingredients ......

yes cheese scones, so it would appear she is actually listening to me even if she wont acknowledge\show any feelings towards me.

God i long to wrap my arms around her and really show her how much i care for her and that she has nothing to fear or be scared of (sorry NO EXPECTATION etc, just wanted to say this bit and let it out of me)

That is exactly what i intend to say and will say once she can put both of her feet into the recovery room and step inside the door. Almost like me saying "before you move any further here are the condition to this"

Yes i understand this and like above this would be part of the conditions as well, right now though this was something i was ok with given the friend involved and also i think it would have come across as too controlling\pressure\manipulation to her given her current mind set. I had told her though that i wasnt happy with her going\staying out so at least she knows that.

- Yes i know and realise that (remember several weeks ago when i caught her out going on twitter) that put us back to square one but i accepted\knew it had to be done. FB wasnt a key tool it happened over time from the swinging scene (god i despise it) she minaly stayed in contact via MSN (which i have fully tracked)

Where can i find the standard letter etc to have a read of as i dont actually think i have read one?

Given her state of mind as well do i present this once she has effectively decide to put both feet into the recovery room and before we go any further?

The only reson i ask this is because i dont want her to read it and think "that all looks really sacrey and frightening etc and i cant cope its pressure etc tec" I think it is far better for her to be able to make her own mind up of actually deciding to fully step inside the room so that at least in her own mind she feels like she is making a decision and not been controlled\pressured by me.