Thank you!!!

Hi AGG, I have a follow-up thought that I hope doesn't come across as disrespectful. To be blunt, what is the purpose of telling me "I just am getting a bad vibe, that's all," and "this is all just my gut feel based on what you posted, it is not anything I can point to and say A-ha!"

If my gut says one thing (good vibes) and yours says another (bad vibes), what good does it do me if you can't provide reasons for what you feel? �Rhetorical question: am I supposed to listen to your gut feelings over my own? �Of course not, and hopefully you agree that a person has to listen to their own gut.

Again, I don't mean to be disrespectful, and I value your thoughts a lot, but do you see what I mean?�I know you're on this forum to be helpful. How does it help to tell me you have a bad vibe about my situation that you can't explain?

I dunno, just a vibe. Now level with me and tell me if I'm right, it's only fair .


Well I was not a detractor of the premarital sex if you recall, I still have the bruises to prove it. I am a detractor of the 24 yr age difference - I am sure it can work for some, but as a starting point, I'd see it as a hurdle - and see below how this all ties in.


Right, because the thoughts are related . To me, when you are starting with any hurdle (e.g. a 24 year age difference), you want to go slower to give yourself a chance to see how things work out in practice. Again, that is true even for a "hurdle free" relationship (which does not exist), but more so for one with hurdles. I get it that one man's hurdle may be another man's opportunity, but that was my point earlier - you sometimes seem a bit too willing to spin hurdles into opportunities - "there's a big age difference but she always liked it so that's fine; she may want kids when I'm in my late 50's but my stepbrother had a kid when he was 60 so that's fine". The benefit of going slow is that it allows to really truly deeply think about these things, instead of quickly dismissing them as "that's fine", for the sake of speeding the relationship along.

I'm still not saying that this won't work, I'm just saying that you are embedding yourself faster than you should based on your knowledge of her. There is a good quote somewhere, which I am going to screw up, which goes something like "the depth of your relationship should not exceed your knowledge of the other person". My simple argument is that you appear (to me) to be behaving as if you had known her for a year rather than a month or two.

The dangers are typically "just" a heartbreak, as black_raven said, but I would add another thought - the more you practice these sprint "all-in let's get vulnerable" relationships, the more conditioned you become to them, as opposed to the slower paced marathon relationships. In other words, I would argue that you are repeatedly honing the wrong relationship skills, and that may have repercussions beyond a heartbreak.


Nope, we're good .

Oh, and I wanted to get back to this:


It is absolutely true that you cannot control where a relationship will go (other than your half of it), but there is no magical "third person" in a relationship as to how fast it moves along. (to clarify - you cannot speed a relationship up without your partner's concurrence, but you (singular) can definitely slow it down). It takes both of you to make it go fast, and only one of you to slow it down. So if it's going at a certain speed, it is only because you let it . So no fair trying to blame the pace on some external "relationship" fairy .

AGG

Good question, and of course you should take your gut feel over mine .

Then again, how can I put facts behind something that's just a feeling? I think the "facts" here are that the age difference is a hurdle and the pace of the relationship is too fast. The vibe is that you seem to be dismissing them so easily (to me), that you are more interested in being in a relationship than deciding if it's right for you. But it's just part of the bigger mental picture we have of each other, based on our posts, right? Of course no one online knows us as well as we do, but yet we value others' thoughts even though they are often based on the vibes they get from us.. At least that's how I view it.

AGG

And I guess to add, I may not be able to explain the vibe at this point, but there is a good chance that you may say something later on that will help me put reasons behind the vibe, leading to the "A-ha!" I was talking about earlier. Or the vibe may dissipate over time too, I've seen it work both ways .

AGG

This may be a big difference between us then, KL (and perhaps many others). I don't bounce back from "heartbroken" after a month or so. I have no problem taking risks but the gravity of the word doesn't seem to mean the same to us. I can bounce back from disappointment, rejection and some other feelings but "heartbreak"?


That's a pretty big danger though. You can very well see here on MB, what negative feelings (and behavior) come about due to a broken heart...and I still don't think we see this the same either as I stated above.


I understand this. I could let myself be vulnerable to a man if I wanted too...especially one I have strong chemistry with BUT it is not worth it to me. After all the crud I went through with my ex (along with the zillions of stories I read on MB or know about IRL), I am not going to get swept away by feel good emotions with a person I hardly know. I am not a "rule" person nor do I want to think over every little thing in a relationship but I'm also not going to loose myself in feelings either...especially very early on..that would be easy to do.

That you have been divorced a number of years may make a difference; your age may make a difference; that you no longer have minor children to consider; that R is not like your ex may make a difference...there are a lot of things that likely influence your perception...same goes for every one though.

And I also agree with AGG about the relationship having a life of it's own. You and R control it. External factors may affect things...that's the way any relationship works.

Just be careful, KL. That's all.

So back to age difference...yeah I think 24 yrs is significant. Time will tell I guess.

It's funny to see you post this - I was driving to work this morning thinking along similar lines - the age difference is significant, the pace is fast, but KL is not going to dump R based on our posts (nor should he of course ), and really it's one of those things that only time will resolve - either all will be great, or it won't.

AGG

Whether you're right or wrong, I don't know, but you ARE entitled to your own opinion about whether I'm spending most of my free time with her

I see her an average of 3 times per week (1 or 2 weekday nights and once or twice on weekends). After work, we spend 3-4 hours together, usually either eating in or out. Weekend nights longer, and weekend days even longer, sometimes up to 10-12 hours or even overnight.

To give you some concreteness so that you don't have to depend on vibes, here's the current weekly snapshot:

• Fri: went to dinner and a movie after work with R and my son (Argo, great movie if you're looking one)
• Sat: went to R's house for dinner, spent the night, but went to sleep at 9:30 because we were both tired (she because of 4-5 hours of horse riding and Instructing, and I because of a 3hr bike/run workout that morning)
• Sun: spent the day with R
• Tue: have plans to meet R for dinner after work tonight
• no more plans until this Fri: a musical show
• Sat: I'm driving to a neighboring state with my son for an all-day hike with friends in the mountains, then visiting my dad the rest of the weekend to see how he's doing following hip replacement surgery
• the following weekend R and I will be together 4-5 days for Thansksgiving weekend

Now it's only fair if you tell me whether or not YOU think you're right!


Just so I'm clear about your vocabulary, is hurdle another term for red-flag? In an earlier post of yours, you said that you've seen me "try to rationalize away red flags," and I'm wondering if hurdles and red flags are one and the same.


That's reasonable, but as you write, one man's hurdle is another man's opportunity. I personally don't see the age difference as a hurdle. Since you do, maybe that's why you see me as rationalizing my viewpoint. I don't see it that way. I was unclear about how I felt regarding the age difference. I inquired for advice, both on this forum as well as from people I know, evaluated what I heard, and came to a better understanding. The reasons in favor of an age-disparate relationship are more compelling for me than the reasons against it. But for you, they are less compelling.

It's true that I was pre-disposed towards evidence in favor of the age difference, and maybe that's why you think I'm rationalizing. If that's the case, I see your point. What I was looking for were valid (for me) reasons against the age difference, and I didn't find any. The fact that your reasons don't sway me is because they're valid for you but not for me. I'm glad you point them out, however, because in forcing me to think about them, I feel more secure about my position. So, thank you!!

Wanting more kids is not something that I recently decided and said "that's fine." My ex-wife teased me for a good 10 years with the prospect of having more kids but would never agree to it. When I dated S, the subject came up, and we almost broke up a year into our relationship because I had a desire to have kids with her but she didn't want to. And one of the things that piqued my interest about R before I ever met her was that she was younger and could potentially want kids. That turned out not to be the case, but I point that out just to give you an example of how a gap in the information I've given about myself can lead to an inaccurate vibe.


I think "faster than you should" is open to interpretation. I think more accurately the phrase should be stated, "you are embedding yourself faster than AGG would based the knowledge you appear to have of her." The pace feels ok to me based on what I know about her, and just because I disagree with your assessment doesn't mean I don't value your opinion.


My therapist has relayed something similar to me that I agree with: "the depth of your relationship shouldn't exceed the trust you have in the other person."


And what's wrong with that? This is very similar to the age difference thing. Physical age does not necessarily correlate with emotional maturity; a 26 year old can be more emotionally mature than a 40 year old. That concept can be applied to relationship age as well; e.g., a 2 month relationship can be deeper than a 1 year relationship.

The fact that my relationship feels like more than 2 months is because we have unusually good chemistry; I don't think it's a sign of short-sightedness. Just my opinion though.


Interesting thought about honing wrong relationship skills. Using a phrase I learned from you, who gets to decide whether they're wrong? I have a response to Black Raven that provides a better context for discussing the idea of "honing wrong relationship skills." Rather than repeating it here, see my post to her below.

BTW, I don't think my 2.5 year relationship with S was a sprint. Also, "repercussions beyond heartbreak?" Please be more specific! Do you have an example in mind, or this just a vibe you're feeling.


I agree with your point about relationship life. In the quote of mine you included, I was trying to explain why it FEELS like the relationship has a life of it's own; but you're right, its speed is what we allow it to have.

The answer to your question is provided in the two sentences immediately following it. That's exactly what I was looiking for when I asked what it was that I wrote that gave you the vibes.

Possibly another way of putting it is that you read between the lines, filling in gaps that I leave out. That's a drawback of communicating via text on the subject of human relationships, which I think are the most complex things in the universe, bar none! Not even nuclear physics, black holes, genetic mapping, you name it, can come close to the complexity of human relationships. Which is why I find them so compelling; I love complexity!!

One thing I can say about bouncing back from heartbreak is that it is a LOT easier with the help of a therapist. I've been seeing one for over 3 years who helped me with divorce recovery and helped me recover from my relationship with S. I'd be way behind where I am now if it weren't for therapy.

Another thing that helps me bounce back from heartbreak is the realization that most relationships fail. In terms of Dr. Harley's date 30 people advice, if you do that and choose one to marry, then you've had 29 relationship failures. In my life, I've had, say, a dozen relationships with women. That means 11 of them have failed, and the status of the current one is undecided. Failure is the norm, and coming to grips with that makes it easier for me to accept failure.


I want to put all I have into a relationship to give it the best chance of success. I'm an optimist at heart. When I'm in a relationship I enjoy, my mindset leans more towards developing the relationship instead of looking for reasons against it. Even though I know statistically that each relationship I'm in will likely fail, I still want to develop it and see where it goes. One of these days, I'll hit a home run and be happy. Until then, I'll keep swinging.

There's a quote I subscribe to that I'm sure not everyone does, "it is better to have loved and lost, than to never have loved at all." I have that attitude with most things I get involved in: hobbies, work, exercise, and yes, relationships. I'm not satisfied if I don't put my all into them. Going into a relationship cautiously is not my style. You might think that's irresponsible and not very smart, but that is me. I'd rather have a failed relationship in which I put everything I had into it instead of going into it cautiously so I don't get hurt. I may get hurt more that way, but I think I enjoy the relationship better while it lasts.

One of these days, I will hit a home run.

While responding to your post, I thought of AGoodGuy's comment that I'm honing the wrong relationship skills. I disagree (but agree that what may be right for me isn't necessarily right for him, or you). I think by going into a relationship full-steam ahead, I am developing the ability to be emotionally transparent, which I would argue is an underdeveloped skill. I think if I hone the "skill" of going into a relationship cautiously, I may miss out on a truly great relationship; I may be too concerned with slowing it down that I stunt its growth and prevent it from developing naturally. I've heard a common complaint women have with men is that they aren't open enough with their feelings. I think I'm developing a skill that will suit me well when I meet the right woman. Again, just my opinion, which won't work for everyone, but one which I'm comfortable with.

I agree. My current relationship will either work out or it won't. Statistically, it probably won't, but that doesn't prevent me from going at it optimistically. It's not my nature to be cautious. (You'd probably gasp if you knew how I'm handling retirement investments ) I take chances. I take risks. I know the consequences, and I make the choices I make because, to me, the potential rewards outweigh the risks, but this is a very individual thing.

Some after-thoughts concerning the recent flurry of activity on this thread:

When I recounted the time I spent with R during a week, I summed it up and guestimate I spend 20-25 hours of UA time with her. In terms of Dr. Harley's rules, I realize that's plenty of time to increase the love bank account. I'm glad you asked that question AGG because I wouldn't have recognized that on my own. It's something to think about.


I appreciate the concerns you have, especially AGoodGuy and BlackRaven, about what I'm getting into. I'm impressed that you take the time to challenge my thoughts, and it's nice to know that you are "trying to look out" for me, and you are encouraging me to "just be careful."

I'm not concerned about the age difference although I know you are. Can you give me any specific reasons why? Not vibes, specific reasons. For example, if you had a son in his 50's who was attracted to a woman in her 30's, what specifically would you tell him to express your concerns about the age difference?

Regarding the pace of this relationship, I'm comfortable with the pace although I know you are concerned about it. Not only am I comfortable with it, I like the pace of it; it IS going fast, but I like it. You might think I'm rationalizing here, but I'll give you three examples to show that fast developing relationship can work.

1. R's parents met when they were around 30, were engaged 2 weeks later, and were married 2 weeks after that. I haven't met them and can't attest to the quality of their marriage, but they've been married over 30 years.

2. My sister met her current husband when she was 48, was engaged one month later, married 5 months after that. They've only been married 6 years, but I can attest that they have a happy marriage.

3. Melody Lane met her current husband shortly after her first one left her, and they married within about 6 months. She claims to have a happy marriage.

Rationalization? Maybe, but I can tell you, I'm not on as fast a track as these three cases, and they all worked out. Cut me some slack guys! I'm not going that fast!!!

The point is, why be concerned about me when I've repeatedly said I'm comfortable with the risk and I'm comfortable with the pace?


AGG, I have a question/comment for you based on this:

You seem very concerned that I'm missing some "hurdles" or "red flags" or whatever you want to call them. I'm spending a lot of time writing thoughts in these posts, and I can't imagine you aren't as well. It almost seems like you're more concerned about me than you'd be about your own daughter! Maybe not; maybe it's just a vibe I'm getting


As much as you'd like to see me slow down the pace of the relationsihp I'm in, an unintended effect of these posts has been to speed it up! In forcing me to clarify my thinking, I feel even more attached to the relationship, and I feel that it's going to grow faster than it would've if these posts hadn't occurred. In fact, when I go to R's house for dinner tonight, I hope to find a way to introduce this thread topic to her and ask her what she thinks about the pace of the relationship. I already know she's ok with the age difference, and knowing her, I think she'll be ok with the pace. Assuming she is, I think the discussion will further the relationship along, because intimate conversation typically creates lovebank deposits. (BlackRaven, are you rolling your eyes about now )


One final thought concerning both of your observations that I can control the pace of the relationship. I can also control the pace of these posts, and I need to. They're time consuming, and I have a lot of things going on these days, especially with the next two weekends being totally booked. If you guys post here and I don't respond right away, it's not that I'm not interested, just that I have some things that need tending to.

Thanks again for the interesting and meaningful conversations. Even though I'm not jumping on board with your opinions, they are having a positive effect on my thinking.

KL, I'm not trying to get you to do anything. I'm just here expressing my thoughts and opinions based on what I read, as I think we all do here. Hopefully my advice is helpful, hopefully it is sound, but of course it may not be.

As you said, we have done a few rounds on this, and I think we've said all that can be said. You can think of examples where age differences and fast pace can work, and of course they can, I never said that they are insurmountable. There are of course counter-examples too. I'm just going with the "odds", that the more closely matched the partners are, the better, and the more time is taken to develop a relationship, the better. But there is no sense arguing it, we can have our success stories and our examples, and no one is going to prove anyone right or wrong, especially because I don't think that there is a "right or wrong" here.


I guess my thoughts here would be more about the woman than the guy. I can see a guy in his 50's being attracted to someone 25 years younger, that is not hard to understand, ahem. My question would be more for the woman, why would she want to date someone closer to her father's age? Yes I know you are going to say that age doesn't bother her and you are in great shape etc, but I still cannot quite understand why a lady would want to date someone so much older. No offense to you, KL, but this is what I'd be wondering about. But maybe I'm the pessimist here.

Anyway, I do wish you luck with R, KL. I'd be curious to hear how things progress!

AGG

No LOL

You and I are alike in some respects, KL...different in others but circumstances in the here and now affect decisions. You don't have minor children in the home to consider...I do as do many others. Even if you did have young children, being the primary care taker also makes a difference (which is still typically the mom.) R does not have children...no minor children in the picture gives you both greater flexible in your relationship. It doesn't sound like you have much drama with your ex either...another plus.


There can always be concerns in a relationship. I am not overly concerned in the age difference but I do recognize it as a possible concern...like anything else. Any married couple I know of IRL who had a great age gap of 15+ yrs (and they are far and few between)...when they got older, the younger person tended to resent becoming a caretaker or having to slow down. Anything can happen at any age so we could play the "what if" game forever and go round and round...I don't see the point in that lol. If R is mature for her age, then you also have a big plus.

Any dating couples I know of IRL with an age gap...the relationship was usually short lived. Just going off what people would tell me, the age difference started to show...was there more to their breakups?? I don't know....could be lots of things.

Like I said, I am not much of a "rule" person. We aren't robots...life and people are dynamic...and we are all different. I agree, people should take risks (within reason of course). I do not identify easily with people who never do. There are approaches I take in life that people would disagree with me about and that's fine...doesn't mean I won't listen to what they have to say or don't appreciate the feedback or concern but at the end of the day I'm going to do what I think is right for me. And if I mess up or get squished a little, well that's life....live and learn.

This is something *I* specifically avoid in dating. I don't want to date my dad. For me that is a nooooooooooooooo.

Of course it is!! Both sound AND helpful!!! Optimism, I, and I�m sure others would testify to the value of your words.


My thoughts exactly when I first met her. Our first outing was a hike in the woods with our dogs on a weekend. I had a great time with her, conversation flowed easily, and we planned a second outing the following weekend, a bike ride through a state park. All week long I pondered the age difference, wondering if she knew how old I was, imagining that if she knew, she�d be turned off. After the bike ride, I asked her if our mutual friend who introduced us had told her my age, and she unflinchingly said yes. Over the next several weeks, I broached the subject a few times because I was having trouble with the very same question you�re wrestling with: why would a younger woman be interested in a guy that much older? Every time I asked about it, she was confident in her response.

Here are some things she has told me that have helped me feel comfortable with the age difference:

• She�s dated guys her age and finds them boring.
• She has hung out with older people her mom�s age since she was a young girl (through horse riding).
• Her two best friends are 56 and 59, both female; she sees one 2 or 3 times a week, and calls the other at least that often.
• She is just plain attracted to older guys, calls them �silver foxes,� a term I�m not sure I like.
• She would rather be in a relationship with a divorced man than a never-been-married man.
• She has told her parents that she wants a relationship with an older man, and they have accepted her choice.

She knows I have never been in a relationship with a younger woman and appreciates that it has taken time for me to get used to it. We were talking about gay & lesbianism once, neither of us being able to fathom having a relationship like that, but both of us respecting that not everyone is like us and that different people can have different likes. She turned to me, smiled, and said, �sort of like some girls are attracted to older men.� I�ve come to accept that she is genuinely like that, even though I don�t really understand it.

Call it rationalization, but I�ve also looked for other examples of relationships with big age differences. One that comes to mind is an athlete friend of mine who retired from the company I work for several years ago. I still see him at races from time to time. He�s 72, and his wife is mid-50�s. They train together, do ironmans, marathons, ultra-marathons; they're hard-core athletes, and their fitness levels complement each other well. Their relationship models what Dr. Harley said about older-man/younger-woman relationships; the guys in such relationships tend to focus more on staying fit and active than other guys so that they can be on par with their younger partners.

For me, a relationship with a younger woman is perfect from an athletic perspective, and I don�t think I would�ve discovered this if I hadn�t experienced it. I�m not trying to blow my own horn, but women my age are generally not interested in fitness to the degree that I am, and if they are, their fitness levels are lower than mine, and it�s difficult to enjoying exercising with them. R loves to run, and she runs at very close to the same pace I do. I�ve never been in a relationship with a woman that can run at my pace, and I really like it.

So, yes, like you, I did wonder the same thing you wonder about, but I don�t anymore. 2 months down the road has given me enough evidence to believe that this is true and that she�s not attracted to me for some hidden reason. I know she�s not interested in money because I�ve told her how decimated I was following divorce. Maybe I�m just lucky, happening to be in the right place at the right time. I don�t know, I can�t explain it, but it seems to be working.


Thanks! I'll try to remember to post an update after Thanksgiving.

Almost everything you said is true, which does make it easier, more flexible. The exception is the primary care taker. Although my kids were basically adults when we divorced, my ex made sure, legally, that I took complete financial resposibility for them: college, health insurance, car expenses, phone, basically anything that involved money. Not that I mind, I�m their dad and proud to support them, but I found it very indicative of her nature to shirk responsibility for them, especially when she has the capacity to earn more than I do (she�s a doctor but doesn�t want to work full-time). When my son chose to live with me instead of her, even though she�s only 5-10 minutes away, that made my day!


Well, maybe we ARE alike in some respects. I �hear� what you�re saying.

It�s not that bad, really!

KL, my dad and stepmom had a 12 year age difference. Once issue that came up was that my dad was used to being catered to, in that he would come home to a hot supper, never have to chip in with chores, even though they both worked. My stepmom was not willing to fill that role, so for the first time in years he had to start doing chores again. I am wondering if you two have talked about those kinds of things, what roles you think the other should fill. If she doesn't change her mind about kids, it should be okay.

How would she take care of herself as she got older? Women usually outlive men. And she'll have no kids to take care of her.