Kudos to your for already identifying the one LB you were committing. It is obviously important that you acknowledge your wife when she comes home in the way she'd like to be acknowledged. You stated you did it for her. Ask her if that is something she liked and if it is something you need to do each and every time she shows up.

I loved her response to your action. She's telling you something.

I really appreciate all the knowledge and wisdom that each of you have shared with me so far. I do apologize for being a rookie.

I had a realization hit me pretty hard earlier today. I realized that I have been meeting most of my wife's needs in a primitive sense, but I now see that I have neglected and at times abused her emotional needs. I sent her a long and loving text today, saying exactly that. My phone immediately rang and we had a very good talk and I told her about marriage builders. She agreed that we need to work out our problems.

That is great news. It sounds like you're on your way.

Get these 3 books and read them together:

His Needs, Her Needs,
LoveBusters
Fall in Love, Stay in Love

There is very practical advice and exercises that are perfect for a couple who are looking for a plan on how to work their relationship. If there is mutual agreement on the policies in this program by both parties the marriage has no other choice but to prosper.

Order the books today then ask her if she'd like to read them together.

--to the extent that you have neglected her, it will take time and consistency to regain her trust (as well it should). Don't expect a text and a couple dates to get everything where you want them to be. Eliminate LB's and lovingly meet her EN's for now. Do you know what Plan A is?

MCMLXXX,
I think the fastest way to understanding these principles is to adjunct your resources with the radio show. Listening to Dr. H and Joyce talk about their ideas and experiences, and commenting on peoples' situations is very enlightening, in my view.

I think you'll find that MB proposes not so much to "work out problems" but to simply fall in love with each other again. Couples can have a lot of problems, and conflicts, differences of opinion, etc. and still be madly in love with each other. Work toward 20-25 hours/wk of undivided attention and you almost can't lose, to begin with. Eliminate the things that make each other fall out of love, and you have an insurance policy for practical infatuation. Meet each other's EN's (especially the Intimate EN's) and you have a formula for success -- that BOTH of you can enjoy forever.

I would also advise to do the reading, and listening, together. It makes for some great conversation. "did he mean....?" "what did you think about this passage...."


I like to come here to offer what I know because it keeps the concepts fresh in my mind and helps me implement them in my own life -- it's not totally selfless, but I appreciate your words of thanks; I just hope you'll do the same when and as you feel more comfortable.

Give it time 1980, and be patient. You have a good program here. it works.

Would your wife come here? Maybe you could start a thread together?

opt

I have told her where I am finding the info, and have the site bookmarked on the computer. With her, I have found subtle works best. I am sure she will at least visit. Not sure she would post. She doesn't want "strangers" to know we have problems. I had suggested counseling several times over the last few years, and was flat out rejected. She doesn't want to admit we are not "perfect". None of our family or friends even know. When they are around, we ACT the part. She really does get a lot of criticism from her family, especially her mother. I guess, to her, if it is ignored, it doesn't exist.

On a side note, I made a few "cheat sheets" last night of some of Dr Hurley's teachings, for quick reference that I can carry with me as reminders. I have the basic concepts, poja, list of LB, list of EN's, the giver and taker definitions, etc.

I really am trying to live and breathe it, so that it becomes part of my nature and I retrain myself to keep the debris out of the net, so to speak. Because I really am like the first fisherman in the parable.

GReat news Cope! .. Any progress should be celebrated! Gotta remember its a marathon not a sprint. One day at a time. It wasn't overnight that got you here so it DEF wont be overnight that gets out out of it. Keep it up!

Cope, two words for you:

Undivided Attention. Read everything you can about it on this site. Introduce it to your wife. (If 'subtle works best', then be subtle.)

Working different shifts, creating a child-centric marriage (which is more dangerous for children than a couple-centric marriage because it raises the likelihood of parental divorce), repeatedly allowing relatives to live in the marital home without enthusiastic agreement of both spouses & without a plan to carve out "together-time" alone with your spouse, being tethered to an electronic companion where your time together is constantly at peril of intrusion from outside -- all of these things, in various combination and cumulatively, over time, are corrosive to a marriage relationship, even one in which the two spouses generally like one another & get along decently without major fights. It can put a marriage in a very vulnerable spot, where any weaknesses in boundaries can be subversive of the marriage, sometimes very suddenly. (In fact, a couple's failure to draw & defend boundaries around their time together, is in itself a serious problem that needs to be corrected.)

Undivided Attention, my man. I learned about it the hard way, and it was no picnic for my wife either. Schedule it, make it happen, internalize it, live it, see how much better things can get; and in the process, you can spare yourselves a world of hurt.

Here's a fantastic thread to add to GO's advice.

The Critical Importance of Undivided Attention

I know it's been a long time since I was here, I am sorry for that, but I have been trying to work things out with my wife. I really appreciate the advice and help that was offered.

I want to give an update.

Things are no better now than they were in November. If anything, they are worse. We had a long talk about facebook and phone problems. She promised to give up facebook, and she deleted her account.......for 3 whole days. She is back on facebook and also pintrest. I checked her pintrest account and found a board titled "yes please" and it was pics of topless men. Some celebs and others I wasn't sure. She has them labeled with words like "so hot" "OMG" "OH MY" "yummy".

I have been logging into her facebook, pintrest, and email. There is nothing I can find. I also watch her phone bill daily. Nothing there. She is also reading lots of mommy porn. At least one book a week.

I talked til I am blue in the face. She just continues to do her own thing. She has been pushing me to let her get more tattoos (she has 3 now). I told her I don't like them, but she just keeps pushing, even wanting me to get one (I don't have any).

Our UA time is less than 5 hours a week. Not that I don't try, she always has an excuse. I introduced her to MB, she showed no interest and said she didn't see that we have any problems.

So, I feel like I am down to 3 options.
1.) Put up with it
2.) Divorce her and move on
3.) Wait til my daughter is older, then divorce.

Cope,
I feel your frustation.

You know, I "introduced" MB to my now ex. Back in 2009 after I stumbled upon it here, and ordered/read a book, and got somewhat involved with the site, and even talking with Steve one time.

Now, I have to say in all fairness, I had no idea what I was introducing. I now see that I ddn't have a real true understanding of the concepts myself; so really what I introduced her to was my minimal grasp of a new approach that I thought might help us become closer. In retrospect, I can see that I had no patience and just wanted the ideas to be absorbed as quickly as possible and didn't really have the wherewithall at the time to pusue it sufficiently to really get any results. My wife-at-the-time was not ready either, and I had yet to earn the right to expect her to change her ways.

I would have been better to approach it from a "we, us, our relationship" perspective but I had cultivated a "me, my, you, yours" relationship for 15 years; you don't undo that in 6 months and a few new ideas...

You can be the judge as to how similar my situation is to yours.
But I will say this: be careful what you feel you are introducing to your wife, and how much you REALLY understand how this works, and how you are living it before you bring up topics. The program works, and if it is not working for you BOTH, then there is a good chance you are missing a step and it might be worth your effort to recheck or reconnect.

For instance. I can tell you might be off the mark a little in your understanding of MB principles because I've listned to the show many many times and I have never heard Dr. Harley propose the above list for anyone in your similar circumstances.

The usual first step would be more along the lines of:
'If your spouse is refusing to meet your emotional needs, then separation (ie Plan B) is in order' (I'm paraphrasing).

1 is not sustainable. 2 is not an MB option per se, and 3 is...do you really want to be miserable until your daughter is older? (also not sustainable and definitely not "honest and open").

Those are my thoughts.

opt

I have really tried. She absolutely refuses to work with me. She denies any marital problems. To her, everything is fine. I am in misery.

I printed out the questionnaires and she refused to even look at them. We argue about facebook or whatever, and she will stop for a day or two then in right back. He I mention it, she gets very defensive and we just fight again. She has complained about stuff I do that bothers her, and I have stopped each one of them and never looked back. She refuses to do the same. I cannot take it anymore.

I have been thinking of filing a petition of dissolution. If it wakes her up to our problems, then GREAT, I can drop it. If not, then I have my answer from her and I can follow thru.

I suggest you email Dr Harley for advice.

In the meantime, plan A.
Try to make as many love bank deposits as possible.

I couldn't agree more with the idea to email Dr. Harley-
marriagebuilders@mbradio.com (I think).

And the renewed plan A I would guess is in preparation for a Good and dark Plan B. You will will have to start thinking about how to enact a separation - perhaps with the assistance of a lawyer. You were thinking of going legal anyway so this isn't much of a shift.

The Plan B would be in the spirit of "I don't want a marriage like the one we have, and have been unable to convince you that there is a better way. I need us to be separate until you can agree to join me in attempts to pusue the relationship that works for BOTH of us." --I would expect you will also gain great clarity from this approach.

By the way, she sounds wayward based on your post above. If she's having an affair, and you are unable to discover it, and can't expose it, you will have to endure the pain of allowing it to "die a natural death," which it will. Have you read "Surviving An Affair" by Dr. Harley?

Have you listened to the radio show? It is very good at solidifying your understanding of MB principles. Hearing Dr. Harley's tone and inflection is invaluable over reading his words in print.

opt

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

Cope,

That sounds a little like the list I had in my mind last fall (and a year or so leading up to last fall). I was definitely withdrawn from trying your #1 which then lead me to think I was going to try to sustain doing your #3. I have 3 children and the thought of breaking the family apart was too much for me to take.

I, too, like you had this option list that were in no way MB philosophies despite having been around here for like � ever. Going into withdrawal sent me down a path of a mini-Plan B, if you will, only from the perspective that I went dark. I mean I had no loving feelings for my wife and my life with her just went totally numb. I hardly had a care what she wanted or wished for and I no longer wanted anything from her. I was very civil and bided my time trying to be the best father I could. It was the most horrible place/feeling I had ever been in my life and trust me I�ve had some horrible experiences, especially as a child.

Going dark sent my wife into withdrawal. And when I finally realized I was not in a position to leave her nor keep up the charade that I could actually do your #3 option I approached her with my status. I told her I didn�t want a divorce and asked her if we could get help. She agreed and agreed to use MB principals and MB phone counseling.

So I was lucky. Lucky my lame-do-nothing approach to our situation that caused her to withdraw didn�t lead her to cheat on me or file for divorce. I think I would have fared a lot better a lot sooner had I done a decent organized well planned out Plan B (even an in-home Plan B) a year or more ago.

Reading your update leads me to believe that you trying your options instead of a well thought out plan to fix the M will lead you to one of many horrible endings (divorce or affair). Your wife sounds quite independent and shows signs of having weak boundaries where she�s bound to cheat (if she hasn�t already).

I sense that a Plan B seems to be in order but I often miss the mark on what�s appropriate. A lot of the decision depends on what you are feeling you can and cannot do. Getting expert advice from Dr. Harley is your best option. I�d say get to that soon before you get to that numb place my W and I found ourselves in.

Here.
Radio Clip on a Husband Wanting to Work on the Marriage, but Not the Wife
Segment #2

Tell us what you think.

Another update. I decided to try one more thing before I saw the lawyer. I asked her if she permanently would delete facebook and pintrest. She asked what brought this argument up again, and I told her it was me or the phone. She argued with me for quite a while, then tried to shame me by saying I was cutting her off from the outside world and taking away friends that she could only talk to online. So, as of now, both facebook and pintrest are DEACTIVATED.......not deleted. She says she can't delete them, but I know it can be done. So........

Also, she was leaving her kindle home when she went to work, now she has it locked up in the car. She knows I was on the kindle looking. Maybe this means there is more for her to hide. She always gets extremely mad and very defensive when I look at her phone. She keeps the phone so close to her, its almost impossible to see it. Now its the kindle.

I do read the bill, and I recognise the numbers as friends of hers. Mostly all females, but the ones who are male, don't like women....to put it nicely.
Any number I don't recognise, I hate a friend call and see who answers. And I reach to see who it is registered to. So far, everything has been strictly innocent, to the best of my knowledge.

Another buddy of mine suggested that I send flowers to her work, without putting my name on them. He said see what she does when she comes home.
If she doesn't mention the flowers.....then I would know that she thought someone else sent them.

Haven't tried this yet, but it's an idea I will follow up with.

What has always tugged at my mind......she has about 6 hours alone from the time I go to work til she goes to work. Daughter is at school. I know she goes to lunch with her girlfriends sometimes.....she don't tell me, I find out after the fact. I sometimes call and she answers, other times she doesn't, but calls me back later. She says she didn't answer abuse she as vacuuming, or dishes, or laundry. But the little tug inside my head always wonders, is that really why she didn't answer. She says she would never cheat, I can't find any proof that she would/has/is cheating. As far as I know, she would not. I really think she is too lazy to cheat, given our sexual history......she has always been lazy in that area.

If she has a kindle she has full access to the internet. She can go on Facebook, pintrest and email all she wants. Unless you have a keylogger on it you will never know. Big red flag that she's hiding it.

Do have GPS on her vehicle? VAR in the house while you're gone and in her vehicle?

There are way too many red flags.

You need to up your snooping techniques.

Cope, I think you have enough evidence (plus the tugging in your gut) to get some good advice from the folks on the SAA board. Perhaps the snooping could be upnotched a bit.

I have to say that the above quote by you reminds me of the adultery phase of my divorce. I knew my wife at the time was having relationship(s) but never certain of the nature of them (emotional/physical, whatever). I just knew it was not right and I knew how I felt.

I missed a few things in my approach however. I got very demanding about the situation. It was "I, me, my" instead of "our relationship, us, we." Do you understand that? Later when I asked her about it she said that she revolted against my protests with the same responses your wife is giving you now because of my demanding tone - trying to tell her what to do and what not to do (never a good policy in a MB marriage, right?).

Then I remember what Steve had told me - that as waywards they become extremely selfish. So it only makes sense that her response was such as it was. They become married to their individulality and the concept of interdependence is repugnant.

When I was wayward I wonder if I would have responded to an approach from my wife-at-the-time with "neither of us are happy in this relationship right now. Let's refocus on each other for real, with NO distractions, and see if we can build the marriage we both dream of, with each other. Let's do it for US and our kids and family. I have found a plan that has helped other couples in the same situation and I'd like us to try it together, what do you think? If it doesn't work with real effort, then maybe it's time we talked about going our separate ways, but let's work together first."


I have a feeling my now-ex might have responded differently to the above. But I didn't have the wherewithall at the time to give that a go.

Have you been listening to the radio show at all??

opt