Yes, i totally agree. We disagreee on a lot of major things. She has a lot of Ind Behavior, mostly focused on the kids. I am dead last in where our money goes, and her time.

"That's the magic that I have seen: when my wife is in love, her sexual feelings follow. When she is not in love, making love to me feels off to her; it feels like I am using her, it feels like sex is all about my needs and not about her, etc."

Yes, this makes total sense. I just feel like I've lost her respect because I cant earn a $million like the dual Dr. MD families do. When I got this job, It was more money than I ever made before, I wanted to celebrate, pop some champagne, get buzzed and fall into bed with her respect and admiration. The first thing she said was "Its good money, but you need to be earning X+$25k for us to be comfortable. Besides, you'll just lose this job too, so keep searching for your next job." ????? Dang woman, did you just see the financial market collapse, and your husband got a RAISE??

After that, it seems impossible to earn her respect again.

I so wish that would work. I talk with her, make her laugh, i get out the cheese and crackers. We hang out in the kitchen after i get home from work, and talk. I try to be empathetic, and just listen, nod knowingly,but i'm sure I'm lousy at it.

I cook on the weekends, I do dishes, I wash the pots and pans most every night. I take out the garbage.

Sometimes she notices too.

I wouldn't say it's the whole problem. Actually I would say he needs to back it up a bit. First and foremost meet ENs and eliminate LBs. Then learn to POJA. POJA is precarious and works best when couples start to feel more like a team. When you see the protections that are being put into the M.

NYC_Runner � most of this is going to sound harsh. I�m saying them to shake things up for you. You�re on a bad path and if there�s any hope you need to be shaken.

NYC you are living in resentment-land. You're so fed up you've developed a ton of habits / behaviors / thoughts that are going to be counter-productive to your goals.

One of the glaring things I see is your DJs about one of her most important ENs. FS. This is your opportunity to provide her the things she needs to feel loved. Your flip-flopping of jobs stresses her out and that is a legitimate feeling for her. Your view of her desire to have more is disrespectful. I think on the surface you accept it but I�m quite certain you resent her for it.

You expect her to understand your #1 EN of SF. How�s that going to happen if you don�t reciprocate in kind by acknowledging her #1 EN of FS? Your W needs securities from you to feel comfortable and confident in her life. She fell in love with you because you provided things on your dates that indicated you would and could provide a lavish lifestyle with plenty of FS security. If you�re going to change jobs you need to manage it in such a way to help minimize her stress. If you want her to feel love for you hear what she says about what she�d like to FEEL YOUR LOVE! Imagine how she�d feel about you if you met her desires in this need. Instead you blast her for it. Call her all sorts of horrible, horrible things. The raking comment? Wow.

I don�t say this to be critical but to hopefully help you understand where you need work if you really want this MB program to work for you.

Your #1 EN. Your wife doesn�t need to enjoy SF in order for you to get your need met. No more so then you need to enjoy providing her #1 EN. I know you think �If she�d just enjoy it SF would happen more often and be so much better for both of us.� But it doesn�t work that way. I speak from experience. My W doesn�t want nor need nor desire SF. But when we�re doing well � like we are right now � the motor clicks on for her. She�s so concerned about my well being and my happiness that she�s more than enthusiastic about it. She�s scheduled some for tonight which isn�t normal for her to do.

I couldn�t understand this at first because I too was caught up in the thought that if she was enjoying it � aka she�d orgasm too � she�d want to be together more. Uhm. Nope. I do notice when we�re doing better and she�s definitely into SF she does reach O but it�s not a requirement. SF will never be a need for her nor should I ever expect it to be. The best way for me to get my #1 EN met is to do EVERYTHING to ensure I�m keeping that bank in the black. Anything short of that and SF gets ignored.

As far as her dressing the part or the touching or whatever you�ll have to learn the art of negotiation and thoughtful requests. Requests aren�t demands or expectations. Just nice-to-have�s that you can communicate to her. If your keeping her bank in the black I suspect she�ll reciprocate on many of those requests. Who knows where this will go when she feels safe with you. How she will feel when she�s feeling romantic towards you. You have no idea where you�ll fall on the priority list once those romantic feelings for you return.

You aren�t there yet. And I think it�s best you stop the bickering and blasting and realize you are playing a huge part in your own demise. You�ve got to implement this program completely and do it for a good long time before you�re going to see any true results. FYI I�ve been on this site for over 10 years and I�ve been where you are in regards to my needs getting met. I know it�s no fun and I withdrew about 18 months ago � maybe more.

You should be thanking your wife. She tells you exactly what she wants from you to meet her #1 EN. My W is so reluctant to share I�ve had to feel her out for 10 years � to no avail. And only recently have we both got on board with the MB program and I�m now hearing more specifically want she wants. From that I�m developing the habits / behaviors / thoughts I need to have to make this marriage a romantic , loving marriage. And it is working like you wouldn�t believe.

You can stay bitter if you want but all your doing is drowning yourself�. Pushing yourself further into your withdrawal. You want to save your marriage and get your needs met? Then start doing more to meet her needs and eliminate your LBs (like all of the DJs you sling at her). Start being the romantic guy without expectation of tit-for-tat. Your W isn�t romantically in love with you and it ISN�T because she�s flawed. It�s because you don�t understand what she needs or believes what she needs is unrealistic.

[/end of my shaking]

Actually, I completely agree. I've had the same thoughts and conclusions. The question is "How?"

How do I get a better job, when I have the "best job" I could find and get??? The only jobs I see that earn $200k are in sales, and I have about 0% of that personality.

And it seems counter intuitive to change jobs to be more stable. I may not have a choice, but if I get a job offer, and take it, my guess is she wont see this as a solution, but just repeating the pattern.

I just dont see how to get from a to b, as much as I would like to.

None of your decisions are independent of each other. Any choices you make regarding your career change are done with her enthusiastic agreement. POJA.

�Honey, I want to provide you with more financial security and freedom. In order to do that I may need to do X and Y. Would you be enthusiastic about that? If not do you have some ideas on how you�d like me to go about it?�

As far as being able to make more money � well � that one comes with a lot of tough choices too. But those again are things you could ask of her. Maybe it isn�t more money you need to make but maybe other options on how to free up more expendable cash.

Brainstorm with her. Make her part of the equation. Just as you�d negotiate more SF with her negotiate her need for FS. At least she�ll feel part of the process and not subject to your independent decision making. IB is an LB.

Regarding the FS, that should be POJA.
If she can't operate a budget and just wants more and more then what if we have major depression? Will she leave you then?

What if there is a world war and we have the draft?
Do women just start cheating because they don't have emotional needs met?
That is the one problem with a lot of te EN meeting.
This guy is working a job and he feels like a paycheck for his wife.

I read about a Cambodian doctor. They made a movie based on his story, The Killing Fields. He and his wife were locked up by the Khymer Rouge and forced on a collective farm. He got terrible diareah due to lack of sanitation and nearly died. During this time his wife cared for him, she literally wiped him and fed him.
She wasnt having any emotional needs met at all.

Most of the country lives on an income of $35,000 a year. If she can't be happy with you making a $250000 income then what will happen if you become disabled? It happens all the time. People have accidents or health problems.

Are you living beyond your means?
Would she be happy if there was a budget both of you agreed to monthly?

Even if FS was her top need, if you have been meeting her other 4 needs she should be in love with you

What makes you say that? I withdrew from my W because my #1 EN wasn't being met but she was doing a fair job of meeting the other 4.

I don't think we can speak for the poster's W. Everyone has varying degrees of the importance of each of these needs.

We had POJA that she would stay home to raise the kids, who are 8,10,11 now. She's gone back to school to get a teaching cert and masters degree. ( I'm proud of her for that. )

But we cant POJA on a budget. She is frugal, but, we still spend too much. She gets mad and defensive when I "make a date" to go over the bills and accounts. a big smoldering issue.

Define POJA here? If she gets equal say in what the agreed upon budget is why would it be a painful experience? I think you meant to say you have been unable to agree on a budget. Not POJA.

I would hazard to guess that she thinks of the "budget date" as an opportunity for her to get scolded for her spending and an opportunity for you to tell her what to do. There�s no benefit in it for her so therefore she gets angry. You do have to live in the here and now so you lay out what you�ve got and ask her to work with you on a plan.

Before you do this you need to really learn and embrace the proper way to have successful negotiations. You need to understand each other�s perspectives then brainstorm a solution.

Do you have any of the Harley books that explain POJA and the Guidelines for Successful Negotiations? If not I�d suggest you get it and read it before trying any more �dates�. Work your side of the street.

I think you mis-understood. "I" dont have a say in what we spend. I get up, go to work, and the money gets deposited. Then she spends it. Then she pays the bills. She has most of it set up by internet, and god forbid I touch anything and mess up her plans. Then MY credit card is maxed out, because she's NOT paying it.

We sat down, listed our bills, made a budget around that, and never saw it again.

So, no, I'm not critical with her, I know she is frugal. I try to lay out some goals and see how we can meet them.

Work your side of the POJA.

I see no reason you need to accept this behavior. Why would you allow it? Sounds like sacrifice to me and that's probably worse than being critical of her.

Read up on Dr. Harley's thoughts on the value of complaints and how to go about using them in a constructive way.

Umm that is not a budget. We have a monthly budget. I input every single expense into the computer. ( In the early days it was a ledger book from Walmart that we wrote in. Beside grocery I put Homeland 25 Brookshires 30 ( Oh..the days of our 75 dollar a month food budget for the two of us... With two teenage boys that won't last a week..)

Now most people then go over the budget at the end of each month. Where are they going over? Why? Are they meeting their goals? We've been doing it so long and are both good with money that we actually have this meeting once a quarter when he gets his bonus.

Each year in January I look at what we have spent over the year in our catagories and I come up with a revised budget. It always changes: add a teenager driver (YIKES..start saving NOW!, we want to remodel something so money has to be put aside, etc.

We agree totally on this budget.. We don't always stick to it, though overall we do. I would put in in terms of her need for financial security. Rather than fussing over her spending, talk about what your goals are.. Saving for college? Paying off the mortgage? What does SHE want? Do not fuss. Just listen to her dreams and then write down the figures. She will see if it fits. Then She can figure it out.

Have you ever done a Dave Ramsey or Crown Financial Ministries course?? Those can be good discussion starters and something you could do as a couple.. Might even count for UA time..

That sound awesome. We never do that. I love Dave Ramsey, I've tried to get her interested. "We have kids, we're in debt, so is everybody else."

Her friends have skipped out on their mortgage, they call the Credit cards and get them cut 80%. So I understand why she thinks its OK. Except I dont want to lose our house or go bankrupt. I dont understand how people can do that, but thats where we're headed.

She is frugal, but, we still spend too much.

Sorry, but:

He was honest, but embezzled the company's funds.
She was faithful, but bopped the doorman.
He was cautious, by died BASE-jumping from the Sears Tower.

"Too much" belies the concept of "frugality", dude. How about addressing the problem, and not papering over it with "Hello, Kitty!" greeting cards?

Because the love bank balance would be overflowing and then she would be in love.
He's already making some deposits in FS because he is working and binging home a paycheck

True'nuf.

We had a big argument last night. She is upset I'm spending money on a couselor, so we went through everything I've posted here.

She feels, that compared to others our marriage is "good", but eventually said "I dont even feel like we're buddies. ie, she doesnt even think we have a problem, and doesnt understand why I'm unhappy. And she's always walking on eggshells to avoid my moods" I told her how stressed out I am, and how her love busters and angry outbursts and disrespect upset me. (Just the other night, she came in our bedroom while I was sleeping, turned on the TV, which she knows annoys me to no end, then left to take a shower. I explained that I have to get up early to go to work, and I'm late and cranky because the Tv is on so late.)

I feel like we're at a stalemate. Ultimately, I dont know what job i have to get, how much money I have to make, or how long I have to be there before she'll feel like I'm meeting her need for FS. I explained why Im stressed out, why I'm not happy but she is, and the job hunting, computer class, counseling and anti-dep meds are to try and break my cycle of depression, stress and layoffs in order to meet her needs. She felt like it was a waste of money, but I dont really care if it costs money if it improves my career, marriage, and our happiness. I felt that it was serious enough to try to find professional help instead of self-help books, and the meds have made a huge difference already. We're going to go over our bills and budget tomorrow, and try to refinance the house.

Of course she is upset. You must POJA all your spending decisions from now on and stop with the arguments ok?


Great that you went through everything here. Can you encourage her to post too?


Lovebuster alert! You take a deep breath and tell her how you feel, gently and calmly. You don't sulk, that is a child's behaviour and you are now an adult.


So then you know just how she feels. You are both guilty of some horrible habits that must stop. Start with you, she will follow later.


Televisions have no place in a bedroom. POJA that right away.



Be patient, you cannot turn this around in one day but this sounds like progress. As TW said, not just a budget but periodic checks to make sure you are sticking to it. Talk respectfully to one another and be a team.