I was looking for some insite into anyone out there that actually had a spouse have mistrust issues from their past that caused the other spouse to with draw because they felt they were not being trusted.
_________________________________
Still waiting to some answers to your question above, as I'm curious to hear other perspectives... This has never happened to me... When my H mistrusted me (many years ago), I actually took it the opposite way - like he cared and had high stakes in me and our relationship...

A friend of mine, on the other hand, had a past of smothering women who would take off running after a few weeks. I'm not sure if he had lack-of-trust issues, but that was probably a huge part of it... I do know that he was so affraid of being alone that he'd hold onto a relationship too tight and freak the poor gals out.

You do seem to be placing the sole responsibility of fixing the relationship on yourself right now. I do hope you will eventually work through things and express your needs and expectations, where the emphasis is not just to avoid pushing her away.

In the meantime, I hope you will find some short-term advice that will help.

<small>[ May 10, 2004, 06:55 PM: Message edited by: Jami ]</small>

I think you are right with trying to hold on too tight to a relationship. I think in the beginning of our relationship I was not smothering, but when baby came along, the ball game changed for me and I think a survival instinct took over. I worked long hours to be successful and provide the very best I could for my family. This worked out on the business end as we are now a partner in our Company.

I understand about the age old question regarding friends of the opposite sex. I also understand the stance MB takes on this. Society in general takes a slightly different stance. For example, take the sitcom "Friends." Here are three women and three guys who are very close friends. If one of the femal characters on the show were told by a boyfriend that they were uncomfortable with their male friends close relationship, they would be seen as too controling by the majority of viewers.

Now this may not be the perfect example, but it does show that society's general acceptance differs to MB's. Now this may be why there are so many divorces.

I believe that I have shown some smothering tendencies to my W. I also believe that these tendencies have caused my W to naturally withdrawl. I also believe my W is smart enough not to throw our relationship away. I just think I have trust issues to deal with and she has affection issues to deal with. She did not grow up in a very affectionate family. I think this may be why she tended to get along with guys more than girls. She has trouble giving affection, but feels compelled to convince guys to show her affection. I truly believe she would not take it beyond this. However, I also believe part of my problem is that I give my W affection freely and frequently. Therefore, in the deepest part of her mind she may not see me as much of a challenge, although I am giving her what she has probably been unknowingly searching for her entire life.

Maybe I am being too philisophical here?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe I am being too philisophical here? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi EL...personally, I think you are being TOO trusting of someone who has not earned your trust. You say your wife's #1 or #2 EN is trust. If this is true, I'm very curious to know how she would react if she went into your email and found something similar to what you have found. She says she doesn't feel the need to go into your email...good for you. YOU have earned her trust. She hasn't done as well. Granted, coming into this marriage, she automatically had a bit higher of a wall to climb to earn the trust, but hey, we've all got our imperfections.

You're making too many excuses for her. I think it is really wonderful that you are focused on your role in this problem and on fixing your own problems first. It is fantastic that you are seeking counseling.

But, come on. Your wife got upset when you read her emails to an ex-boyfriend.
I think you are kidding yourself if you think you are seeing even the majority of her communication with this man. She knows you read the email--she's not going to incriminate herself with that medium.
So, she got mad when you read her email, but she didn't change the password? Why not? She doesn't want you reading her email, she knows you have the password, and she doesn't change it? Doesn't compute. She is allowing you to keep reading. Maybe she is continuing to test you, but at this point, your marriage is in danger and the games have got to stop.

The EN of trust generally means that the person needs to feel trust, not feel trusted. She has to earn that. As long as she makes you feel unwelcomed into her conversations with other men, she is hiding something from you at some level and does not deserve your trust.

I do think she is having an EA. It might not be one that she NEEDS, yet, but it will get there as your marriage deteriorates. If nothing else, she has a need for conversation that is being met by another man. That WILL grow into something more as the honesty and openness in your marriage is sacrificed.

Keep working on yourself. Acknowledging and addressing your trust issues is wonderful. But, when it comes down to it, trust won't be restored until she does her part to prove to you that there is no reason to not trust her. She's failing that task miserably.

Smile

El, I agree with you to a certain degree. It does seem to me that you are doing some smothering and have displayed some controlling behaviors... For example, I assume that you could easily access her e-mail in the first place... This fact, in my opinion, eases some concern that she was not hiding her messages initially????? Correct me if I'm wrong... But after you started snooping around in her e-mails is when her guard increased and she told you she trusts you completely and to trust her as well??

During my EA, I had a different password in the initial stages... I was certain that I did not want my H to read any of the messages that went between us, and I made sure that this would not happen... Now that the painful ordeal is over, I've removed that e-mail account and password. My H can access all of my e-mails if he wanted to. Still, I don't know if I'd want him to read and monitor every single message I write... I'm not sure what my response would be if he started snooping and trying to control our relationship now that I have nothing to hide... But, depending on how he did it, it might be kind of annoying and a LB...

I'll let others go into the age-old question of having friendships with the opposite sex, due to my track record... I do, though, wonder why they did not write more EAs, PAs, etc., into the Friends' script, as I don't see how it'd be possible to not get in deaper... with even dumb but loveable Joey <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> on Rachael's part... I'd be all over him!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ... sorry for the digression!

Anyway, for the short-term... Your seeking counseling is great... I don't have good advice regarding the short term besides the fact that I think seeking professional advice is your best bet. I'm not sure what the solution is for your wife's trip and meeting up with male friends, but you'll get some good advice here.

For the long-term, I would tell your W, soon, that you've found this site, like the concepts, and want to work on building the best marriage possible... See if she's on the same track and begin the process of building your marriage by way of the MB concepts.. As I said before, it's going to take work and commitment on both of your parts.

<small>[ May 11, 2004, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: Jami ]</small>

Several of you use the FRIENDS TV show to justify opposite sex friendships. But you cannot logically do that:

1. The "Friends" on the show were ALL UNMARRIED!

2. The "Friends" on the show ended up "sleeping with and having sex with" Each other! Count the sexual acts that happened on that show. And who slept with who.

3. It is a fake TV show after all and does not apply to real marriages with real temptations.


I STILL MAINTAIN THAT IF YOU NEED TO KEEP OPPOSITE SEX FRIENDS WHEN YOU ARE MARRIED, THEN THERE IS OR WILL BE A PROBLEM.

There is a married guy down the street who knows me and my husband and we know them. He keeps asking me to go on walks with him and his son or to drink beer with him on his front lawn (he is home part time while wife works). This is when NO ONE else is around but him, me and his two year old son. He actually knocks on my front door and asks me to do these various things. (People do not realize I have to work during the day even from our home office.)

I ALWAYS SAY NO! Why start this! I don't need or want it. Soon, I may tell him about "how I would like more sex in my marriage, etc"!

IT IS BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD!

<small>[ May 11, 2004, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: baba2 ]</small>

Yep, I agree with Baba on the Friends analogy. Just finding some humor in where the writers missed some very hot scenes!!

Hello guys. I just wanted to give you an update. Basically I have started counseling and have high hopes for its success.

Last week my W left on the trip. I stayed home four extra days because of work. I met her on the trip and things seemed to be OK. I did not ask about the old friend or if she had contact with him. She did not offer any information either. We did have some lenghty conversations about my controling behavior and trusting her. One of the things that came out of our conversations is that she feels that I judge her all the time. This is great to know because she has not filled out any of the surveys, so atleast now I have a little clue as to something that irritates her.

I did my best to give her some space so she could spend time with one of her girlfriends who was having a difficult time as well as participate in a wedding shower.

We got home Monday and all seemed OK. I went back to work on Tuesday and came home early. Last night she asked if I would help her on the computer. While I was helping her, she went into her email and actually showed me that this guy had written her an email that said, "Whats going on?" because she never called him when she went on the trip. I asked if she had replied to the email. She said no, and that I could check if I liked. I said no. I then thanked her for taking a chance at being open with me. I also said that I did not wish to ruin any friendships that she had before I met her, but I would like to be included in the friendships she maintains with any guys. She agreed and said this is why she showed me the email.

This made me feel so good inside and I started this morning with such a positive attitude. I now really think that we are not at the stage where she is having an EA yet, but I am not going to kid myself and think that we were not heading down this path.

I had a counseling appointment this past Tuesday and the counselor recommended that my W start attending either with me or without me. I mentioned this to my W and she seemed open to this. I think this is real progress. My W actually said she has felt better about things over the last week because I know am seeing what I have been doing to her (controling behavior, jealousy, not trusting etc..) and that she feels I am now listening to her for the first time.

I really think we may be heading in the right direction. I know it will take time.

Thanks everyone,

EL

I'd like to chime in on this... her behavior of having said that she deleted things on purpose to "test" you... is a classic way of covering something when caught. Rather than admit, you throw it back and make it the other person's fault... "Don't you trust me?"

Hell no! I trust what IS happening... you're going home and setting up meetings with single males! THAT you can trust. Why doesn't she wait to meet this person when you get there? That way you can share this oh-so-damn important person in her life with her and better understand your SPOUSE.

I trust that your wife is maintaining damaging relationships. Did she not know about your unlucky history coming into this relationship? The word "insensitive" comes to mind.

But, for me, it really goes back to this... if this guy is so freaking important, then why doesn't she wait for you to be there too... bring you into her past and let you come to terms with this friend in your own time and way? Maybe you and he will become friends and you'll see that nothing is going on. Is she afraid that she'll lose her guy friend to her spouse?

I'm a BS and my x always threw stuff back. When I caught her on the phone with her lover (her best friend's husband) she'd always come back at me with, "I knew you were going to listen... so I did that on purpose! And boy did I catch you eavesdropping!" Suddenly, this is my fault right?

The pattern is unfortunate. Obviously, no one wants to be with a jealous control freak... which either you or she is pegging you as. On the other hand, no one wants to be with someone who brings out the worst in you. The way I see it... you can trust her and LET IT GO. Or, let her go on her trip and hire a PI to see what is really going on. If you do the PI thing and she turns out to be trustworthy, make a solemn pack right now to never ever ever bring it up and never ever do it again.

Dude, you're not in a good place right now. It's too bad that you and your wife can't use your vacation time to take a trip TOGETHER.

The trip already happened. As I said earlier, I do not believe that my W had any contact with this guy. In fact, I am beginning to believe that my W is so scared to have contact with anyone for fear of a bad reaction from me that she feels smothered and in a bubble. Now of course I do not wish for her to feel like this. And I do conceed that my past does not help me in the trust/jealousy/control department. I am trying to work on this through counseling.

We had a setback last night. Basically, my wife and a lady in the neighborhood were talking when I got home. Afterwards I had asked her if she was talking about us and she said yes (I realize hear my W is taking a chance at being honest with me). She said that she told her about my going behind her back and looking at her emails. This hurt me because the night before she had told me we were past this issue and moving forward. Now she has told one of the gossip people in the neighborhood and it hurt me. I told her that this hurt me and that we should not share things with outside people that would potentially cause the other pain. As I am now seeing my ugly issues for the first time and realize that many family members have seen this ugly side of me for a while, I am trying to learn to come to grips with these things and learning to deal with the embarassement that I have hurt the one I love the most, I did not need the extra burden of wondering what the neighborhood is saying about me. I would not put her in this spot and was unhappy that she did it to me.

We got into a circular argument because I feel we lack the expertise to communicate properly. When I expressed my feelings she reacted by saying' "Fine. I will not have any contact with anyone and I will not discuss anything with anyone." She took what I was saying to the extreme (as always). Her not understanding what I was saying and taking it to a rediculous extreme drove me to try and explain what I meant better. This only drove her to the same extreme. Then we end up in a circular discussion. She gets made and allows angry outbursts. I used to, but with MB principles I do not engage in angry outbursts anymore.

When I finally gave up and let this discussion die, she said she knew I could not change and that this discussion set us back to ground zero. She also brought up that the counseling I am going to was for me to work on my own issues. I told her that after speaking with the counselor, the C reccomended that she come to counseling as well. My W now feels "pressured" to go to C because she is worried that I will accuse her of not working on the marriage (imagine that). However, I do not want her to go to counseling if she is going to go under protest because I know she will not allow it to work. Therefore, I told her not to go.

I think I probably disserve this pent up anger from her for the last four years of jealous/controlling/selfish behavior that I have put her through. None of which by the way was physically abusive. Its just that we discussed this on our trip last week and she had agreed to allow me the opportunity to start over and work on my issues. I told her then that I may have small setbacks and that no one is perfect. However, I do not know if she can get past her anger towards me. She will say she is not angry, but it shows.

I just do not know how to work on things around her for fear of her missinterpreting my actions as controlling/jealous/mistrusting etc.. I actually feel as though I am on egg shells, which is the same thing she tells me. Maybe my actions have damaged us beyond repair. I hope not, but I do not see what else I can do.

Thanks for reading this.

I hate to say it but it is HER actions that are damaging your marriage. She is being sneaky. She is gossiping to the neighbors to gain support for her position. Maybe you should think of having an "open marriage" where she can actually have sex with other men.

She manipulated the situation so carefully that it makes you feel like it was your fault just so she could get out of counseling. Wow, she is a good manipulator. Good Luck.

baba2,

I know you are trying to provide me with good advice and I really appreciate your time. I do think you are off base here. I think she has demonstrated to me (and I see it better through counseling) that I have actually been filling in blanks in my head and distorting reality a bit. Because of my past issues, she is acting in a protective mod (right or wrong) and was holding back information she felt I would react poorly and unreasonably towards.

Yes, I do believe sometimes things can be seen two different ways. I am usually the one who takes to the "conspiracy" theories. I believe she is genuine and has been hurt soo much by my past actions that she is numb to fixing it. I only hope that she is willing to truly allow herself to be happy and feel safe with me again.

Please do not take this as my rolling over or being a doormat because I am not.

Ok I believe you. But I do not see a lot of LOVE shown in her words or actions toward you. Where has that love gone?

Maybe if you get counseling for yourself you can later bring her in on it.

Personally, I do not trust "any" woman who is married and yet keep thier male(non gay) friends. I am sorry but that is my bottom line. I will not even hang around such women as friends! Because I am not that way.

Her MO is that she HAS to keep male friends around even meeting them for dinners, etc, and inviting them to the wedding.

From this point on in the relationship, I would not trust her no matter what happened later. Or how good the communication got.

EL,

I also see that your W feels everything in your relationship is your fault. Your admission of your faults have now given her free reign to use as a weapon whenever you try to discuss how her behaviors make you feel.

Be careful not to be too defensive of your W. I know it is easy to do once you've been enlightened on some of your faults. You may have some bad behaviors but you shouldn't have to be the one to bend 180 degrees just to get your relationship to work.

You have every right to feel offended that she is talking about an issue with a neighbor (unless of course this neighbor is her only confidant) especially when she's said that it is in the past. There has to be some middle ground, some agreements to conflicts. You shouldn't have to put up with actions that hurt you or make you feel embarassed. Your are working to put your bad behaviors behind you. You do not need to be punished for past mistakes.

And you shouldn't need to feel your actions of expressing your feelings put you back at 'Ground Zero'. That sounds like a threat or manipulation tactic to get you to back off for making her feel bad about her poor behavior.

Be careful you don't allow your Giver side to take over your Taker. You need to be conscious of your W's needs and desires but still need to maintain something for yourself.

Be strong but gentle.

Oh one more thing.

I see nothing wrong with your W having male friends (sorry Baba I normally agree with much of what you say). However I do see a problem with your W being reluctant to wanting to share this wonderful Male friend. Granted maybe her reluctance is because of your past jealousy and control but at some point she want to share this friend with you if he is as wonderful as she claims. And she should want to share you with him.

Maybe this relationship sharing will take some time once confidence in the relationship and trust have been re-established. Express to her your desire to be the kind of person she would feel proud to introduce to close friends.

MyAlias,
You just rock!! If you get a chance could you check out my thread "Need help with rebuilding SF". I could use your insight.

Thanks,
Symphony

Extremely Lost,
I don't think it's always bad to have guy friends. I have always gotten along better with guys (unless I am married to them it seems <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) I do understand the issues you are having because of past relationships. I also understand that your wife might hide something innocent from you because of your reaction. It doesn't excuse lying to you any more than you accusing her of something that isn't happening. It's a tough spot your in.

I think Myalias had some good thoughts for you. Do you think it would be easier for you if this guy was a part of both your lives rather than just hers? I'm sure if he is such a valued friend your wife would love to be open about her contact with him and for him to become a good part of your life together. She probably doesn't realize that her hiding it is only making your reactions worse. A wandering wondering mind is lethal. It's always better to know the truth so you have something to work with. I think with H&O communication the two of you could find a solution.
Take care,
Symphony

Extremely Lost-

I just wanted you to know that I have been reading your post and I think I am the female version of you. Really. I can relate to SO much of what you have written about the jealousy, mistrust, etc. I'm there, too. I've actually been in counseling for my jealousy and it has helped somewhat but it is still so hard and painful dealing with those feelings.

I don't have time to go into details right now... I'm exhausted from writing so much on my own post ("Why am I so uncomfortable with my H's friendship")but your W has made comments exactly like my H.....blaming my jealousy for all of our marital problems (and I do too), H feeling numb and hopeless about it ever getting better, H not sharing things with me because he's afraid of me being jealous and the one that really gets me....if I share a concern or have a question about something I'm insecure about, he says it takes us right back to square one and he feels hopeless.... just like your wife has said to you.

And for what it's worth, I completely agree that your W needs to ditch the male friend!

Thank you baba2 and my alias,

I would like to address some of your questions. Basically you are right baba2 there is not a lot of LOVE in my W's words or actions these days. I cannot really blame because of my past trust/jealousy/controling ways. I do hope we can restore her love for me. I have not lost my love for her.

She has not really maintained her old male relationships. A few "not in depth" emails is not what I would call maintaining a relationship. I believe part of the issue is my history distorting reality a bit. I did speak to my W about how she has made me feel that she has held back on specific information regarding one male friend. She admitted she had because of how she thought I would over-react when there was no reason for it. I can see her point and have now asked for her to try and reset her thinking and allow me the opportunity to react so I can show her I am changing. I also told her that I felt she should include me in any male friendships she is going to maintain. She said she tried in the past and I have over-reacted. I believe she is willing to make an effort again (hopefully in the near future).

My issue now is that I do not know how to get her to believe in the fact that things can change and we can get better. She says she will and we can start over, but her actions show her to be very gaurded with me and still angry. How do I stop her from regressing back to the attitude that "nothing has changed" when I make a mistake even though I have put in a larger effort than the simple mistake I might have made?

I do feel that she has started to put all of the blame on me for where our relationship is. However, again I can sort of not blame her for this as for the last four years she and I believed it was totally an issue with her. She would always say that it is not my fault or about me, but is something that is wrong with her and she did not know what it was, nor did any specialist. So I can see her full shift of blame from 100% her to 100% me. The only thing I can hope for is that if she sees improvement and begins to feel more secure with us, maybe she will be more willing to share blame.

She also is getting put off by the fact that whenever we have alone time together, I seem to not be able to talk about anything else and just have fun. I need to figure out how to do this, and still feel like we are both working towards the same goals.

Thanks for the help. - EL

I am thinking maybe the reason you can't stop talking about it is because the ISSUE IS NOT RESOLVED.

It is natural that our minds seek resolution on an unresolved issue. Our minds almost become compulsive about it. Craving for it to be resolved.

You two are not PAST this issue yet. It seem to me that that fact (of the unresolved issue) does not bother her but it DOES bother you.

AND YOU DO NOT HAVE THE POWER TO RESOLVE THIS ISSUE THERFORE MAKING YOU FEEL "POWERLESS AND OUT OF CONTROL" ON TOP OF EVERYTHING ELSE!

Could you tell her that until this issue is resolved in your mind, you cannot seem to stop bringing it up and you don't know what to do and can she POSSIBLY PLEASE HELP YOU?

What do you think that she would say to that statement if you could put it that way?

And another question, do you feel strange when you are powerless and an issue is out of your control? How do you feel? Write those feelings and fears down.....

<small>[ May 20, 2004, 11:02 PM: Message edited by: baba2 ]</small>

EL,

I think I hear you saying that your relationship is just really strained right now. You both are concerned about your level of trust with each other. You're both saying the right things but to this point haven't been able to implement any ACTIONS to prove this. I say give it some time. Allow your W to make some efforts to include you in interactions where you can prove you've changed.

Think about her statement about your need to discuss the issues all the time. Yes, it's good to communicate but don't push her away by looking insecure or needy. HAVE SOME FUN. Sounds like good advice. Plan something enjoyable that you both would love. Let recreation be part of your recovery and/or changes. I'd bet she could feel close and warm to you again if you two could just relax and have some fun.

<small>[ May 21, 2004, 08:23 AM: Message edited by: MyAlias ]</small>