I feel that your wifes mantra is "It's all about ME". I fear that she could care less about your feelings as long as they do not impact her freedom. To me, it seems like she only cares about herself.

And now she triumphantly tells you "she really never needs sex at all"! It seems that this personality defining statement from her does not bother her in the least. Nor does she seem to consider your needs or feelings here.

She appears totally selfish to me, stuck in her own little world, busy getting her attention and communication from other people (men and women) other than you, uncaring toward you, blaming your behavior for all her faults, and having to be dragged kicking and screaming to work on the marriage with you.

For some reason, I fear she does not love you any more. But maybe does not want a divorce yet because of the child.


What a painful revelation.

Sadly EL, I believe baba may be right.

But I would certainly recommend you do as you stated in your gameplan. Do the most you can to prove to her your desire to make this the best M ever and to show her your changes. Then when it appears things aren't getting anywhere (attempts at MC, fulfiling ENs) then you might consider a Plan B. (You're right, the 4 years of neglect cannot count, if you're keeping count).

I'd hate to see someone who's making such an effort at changing himself live his life being a doormat of unhappiness.

I've got to take off for the day so have a good weekend. I'll check in with you on Monday.

<small>[ June 04, 2004, 10:56 AM: Message edited by: MyAlias ]</small>

Thanks for your replies baba2 & myalias,

I certainly am hoping you guys are not right. Two nights ago in our "open" discussion I flat out asked her if she was still in love with me. I asked her to be honest and not worry about my feelings. She said that she is. She asked how I can expect her to feel close to me physically if she feels that I do not truly trust her, am jealous for "no reason," and appear controling. I feel this is all fair enough; but, I told her that I needed to know that she was open to the idea that through my changing for the better and demonstrating over time that I am not like this anymore, that she could become interested in a physical relationship with me. She said ok to this.

This is the only thing I have to hold onto and I HAVE to trust she is being honest with me if I am truly going to change myself. If I did not trust this to be the case, then what is the point of my saying I am trusting her if I am not. I need to teach myself to trust her, and therefore, I must start somewhere.

I would just like some validation from some woman who had reached bottom with regards to not wanting or needing sex ever again (for an extended period of time, not just a weekend) and found themselves changing. I would very much like to try and understand the thought process or steps they found themselves going through. I would like to get their opinion on what made things better and what hurt things. This would really help me understand that it actually is truly possible for someone to feel like they do not need or want sex in their lives after they used to like sex. It would also help me learn that it actually is possible to come back from the brink of "NEVER needing it or WANTING it."

I wish nothing less than happiness for everyone here.

Thanks for the perspectives, EL

I feel sad when you said this:

"I need to teach myself to trust her, and therefore, I must start somewhere."

This is not what trust is all about my friend. To trust somebody THEY must prove themselves to be trustworthy. And they must prove themselves to care about YOU and what YOU need and want. You cannot just FORCE yourself to trust a selfish or untrustworthy person. If she does not care about her feelings, she cannot be trusted to respect you.

I feel sad you have this battle. Which came first the lack of trust or the lack of sex???

Seems like you guys could have resolved this whole issue in a couple months easily.

Unless.....there is a lot wrong here we do not see. Or unless.....she secretly WANTS the issue to continue to be a stumbling block in your marriage so she can USE it to blame you for everything. Perhaps it is her ace in the hole to be able to justify "avoiding sex" with you.

Issues like this should not be this hard to resolve as long as both spouses want to resolve it! What is the hangup?

<small>[ June 04, 2004, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: baba2 ]</small>

Thanks baba2,

I would like to address some of your questions/comments.

Basically, when I said I need to learn to trust her again, this is because I do understand through C that my W was initially put at an unfair disadvantage. I was not trusting her, not because she did gave me reasons, but because of my past experiences. This was definitely not fair for her. I now finally see this and am willing to "learn" how to trust because I now know that I do not know "how" to trust my W sexually. This is something the C is helping me with.

I try to look at things lately from my W's perspective to try and understand things. I suppose that if I met some wonderful women (through work or whatever) and had a lot of respect for these women (for whatever reason) and did try to include my W in time spent around these women; but, my W acted jealous/controling and accusatory (even when she was with me and these women), I can start to understand how this would irritate me. I would eventually be offended that my W did not trust me enough and it was only ok if I hung out with her all the time (alone). I guess this would push me to desire interaction with others (not necessarily sexually). If you couple this with living in a new state (with no friends/family around) and being pregnant, this would just amplify things into being much worse. I guess potentially, I may loose sexual desire (if that is possible for me). Maybe I would think, who is this person telling me what I can and cannot do all the time? I would probably find them ugly and certainly not wanting to share very intimate moments with them. If this happened over years and then suddenly, through another great accusatory/mistrust situation my W claims to have woken up to how she was behaving, I guess I would have a difficult time beliving it to.

Now, the reason I would have stuck it out for so long is because I love her. Therefore, seeing this person go to C and read certain books and genuinely try to put an effort in, I would be curious and watchful that things may change for the better. I would probably wonder when they were going to change back. Having said this I am not sure how much of myself I could invest in this percieved recovery out of a self denfense mechanism. However, I would try to not willfuly impede any progress my W was trying to make. It would be difficult as to how to reward progress because it is percieved as short time.

This is my thinking and I hope you do not see it as my making excuses and being a doormat. I truly feel that I have been wrong (wether or not she is wrong is a different argument). Therefore, I see that I, for myself, owe to our M to be a better person, a better husband and a better father. With this effort I hope my W will choses to become a better W, lover and mother (even though I already think she is an awsome monther).

Thanks for the responses, EL

I hope the best for you. Give it 6 months and see where you are at. Maybe some men will come on and tell you how thier sex life turned around in a good way...! We can only hope.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by AC1201:
<strong> EL,
I just read through all 7 pages. =) I wanted to post because I am in your wife's place almost exactly and I wanted to give you my story. I'm looking for a little help too, so maybe together we can work this out.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AC: I encourage you to copy and paste this into your own post. The amazing people here on MB can give you a lot of great advice without detracting from EL's situation.

April

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Extremely Lost:
<strong> The thing that hurts and sticks in my mind is that on the SF part my W scored it as a -5 for her and wrote "not interested and do not need it." On the bottom section where it asks about how your partner is doing meeting these needs, she wrote "N/A." This really hurt and leaves me with doom and gloom thoughts of no chance for recovery in the SF department.

<snip>

Is there anyone out there from a femal perspective that was in the same situation as my W and came back from it?

Thanks, EL </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've found that my EN priorities change over time. At one time I would have rated SF about the same as your wife, but at the time I also knew I could get it whenever I wanted (as my then BF made it clear he always wanted it).

As our relationship improved I found SF climbing up the list (though it still was in the lower 5 instead of upper 5). As my husband's needs decreased (we were teenagers when we first met and he had a teenagers stereotypical libido) I found SF went up into my Top 5 needs. It was quite a shock to me to realize my husband wasn't ready and willing whenever I wanted him to be.

While SF may never be at the top of her list, I imagine it will become more important to her as your relationship improves.

April

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Extremely Lost:
<strong> I would just like some validation from some woman who had reached bottom with regards to not wanting or needing sex ever again (for an extended period of time, not just a weekend) and found themselves changing. I would very much like to try and understand the thought process or steps they found themselves going through. I would like to get their opinion on what made things better and what hurt things. This would really help me understand that it actually is truly possible for someone to feel like they do not need or want sex in their lives after they used to like sex. It would also help me learn that it actually is possible to come back from the brink of "NEVER needing it or WANTING it."

I wish nothing less than happiness for everyone here.

Thanks for the perspectives, EL </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi EL,

I just wanted to give you some validation. I don't usually give all the details of my situation since it seems minor compared to others but here it is, hope it helps:

Met husband in college as freshmen when I was 16 and he was 17. At the time I was in a long-distance relationship with my high school sweetheart who was in the Navy. A year later I started hanging out more with future husband. So technically I was in an EA (I broke up with the high school guy within 2 weeks of disclosing feelings with college guy).

Sex was amazing. Three times a day probably 5-7 days a week. So I very much enjoyed it. This lasted for about 6 months.

Things started going bad 6 months into the relationship but it seemed minor at first. By our 4th year anniversary things were pretty toxic and sex gradually declined to 1x/day maybe 3-5 times a week then by the end of the 4th year to just a few times a month. During our 5th year there was no sex the entire year. FH (Future husband) had an EA with a girl he met while traveling on work late during the 5th year. Broke up with me (although we continued to live together another year). We went through all the typical adultery issues you've seen here, almost as if we were following a checklist. But because we weren't married, it was fairly easy to separate our belongings once FH moved out.

After he broke up with me I started having sex with him again, though not consistently or frequently. When he moved out I stopped. We tried getting on with life. He went out with several women, I went out with one guy. We continued to hang out and do things together as friends. (Timeline, we broke up in 1998, he moved out in early 2000, we got back together in 2001).

I was amazed at how much better we were able to communicate once he moved out. It's almost as if there was no longer pressure to hide our feelings from each other since it didn't really matter what the other thought any more. We read many self-help books, I started hanging out on this site in 2001 (lost original password, but name was Roan or Roanaward).

We started dating in 2001, he moved in with me in 2002 and we married in 2003. While things aren't perfect in the marriage, we're happy and we have a satisfactory sex life.

So to answer your question, yes I went from never needing sex to wanting sex.

I don't think my particular thought processes are helpful to you. I went from not needing sex for an entire year (and probably a year prior though I was going through the motions for FH) to having sex with FH because he broke up with me. The usual "I love you but am not IN love with you". I did some snooping and found out about the EA with the other woman.

Had sex with him, to prove I could. To prove to him and myself that I was capable of being sexy, to try to win him back. Did many things over the next year that I am not proud of and that made me feel worse about myself. I compromised a lot of my own morals and standards in an effort to win him back. Further damaged the relationship between us.

When he moved out I was able to start putting my life and self-esteem back together. We started communicating again. We were always best friends even through all the heart-ache and pain. He made it clear that he still wanted a relationship with me but he did not push it. Basically we both did a lot of growing up (remember we were 22/23 when we split).

Once we made the decision to get back together we worked on the trust issues. I fully felt the EA in 1998 was an affair, which of course he did not as it wasn't physical and he broke up with me before anything physical happened with another woman. At that point we'd been together for 5 years and living together for most it. Once the trust came back I found myself wanting him sexually again.

It was a very slow/painful process (at least it seemed so at the time). Luckily we had been working on many of the communication issues during the previous 2 years while we were apart so it was actually much easier than what other people are going through. We didn't really have any control issues so I can't help you there. The things he did to regain my trust was cut off all contact with the women he'd had sexual relationships with, not shut down his computer screens when I enter the room, allow me to read his e-mails, etc. Basically all the adultery related things.

I hope this helps a little. If nothing else, then to give you hope that people can change.

April

Thanks Roanward for the validation that people can change. It really helps!

I must confess this weekend that I LBed. I really did not catch that I was doing it until after it was too late.

Basically, I woke up Sat. morning after a long night with work (called back to work 9:00 PM - 1:00 AM on an emergency). I woke up not feeling good, think I am catching a cold. My W and I went downstairs with our son to make some breakfast.

My W got upset, because there was a little mess from the previous evening (a couple of small spots on the counter) from when I grilled out for everyone. I had done the dishes , made the meal etc.. but I simply missed a couple of spots. I cleaned the kitchen and had picked up downstairs as well as started to pick up upstairs before I had to go back to work the night before.

I think she woke up in a bad mood or something and she was upset with me for these spots. I said I missed them and was sorry, but she was still upset. She then said she was unhappy with my washing dishes and putting them into the dishwasher because she just had to re-arrange the dishwasher to maximize it when it was time to run it. She also said that it bothered her when I emptied the dishwasher because sometimes the dishwasher did not clean everything properly and I had missed a few items.

In the past she was really upset with me for not washing dishes and putting them in the dishwasher. She also told me (in the recent past) that she hated emptying the dishwasher. So with her comments on Saturday morning, I was really confused and hurt. So I could not just let things "go." So I relayed how she told me she wanted me to do things things before and now she is telling me she is upset with me doing these things.

This fell into a circular argument right away and she tried to close down the communication. I called her out on closing down the communication. She brought up how all we ever do is talk about our relationship. I pointed out to her how we have not talked about our relationship since last Saturday. I then brought up how I was hurt she still has not finished filling in the surveys to help me be a better husband. Then I probably stepped over the line. I brought up how she said early on in our relationship I fooled her by not showing my trust issues and then when she thought I "had" her, I showed my true colors. Now I knew this was not true, but it still hurt very much. So I said that I could say the same thing. The first two days we were physical we had relations 3 - 4 times in two days. I was living out of state. The next week she can to visit me and it was the same physical weekend that we had the prior week. Now its dwindled to zero. I told her how this makes me feel fooled now that she says she is not interested in the physical relationship and that sex is not necessary in a marriage.! She became very upset with me. She said how can I expect her to feel sexual from how I have made her feel over the last four years. I said that she needs to trust that I have finally realized all the things she had been trying to tell me, about my specific faults and issues. I also told her that I understand how she is probably going through a stage of "punishing me" and that I could even accept this for a little bit. But, I urged her to not make the same mistakes that I have made and not hear what I am saying. I do not think that either of us wishes to have another four years go by that is like the last four.

She said that she does not want to have these arguments in front of our son. I said, I would not like to either, but, when she will not discuss this at night (after S is in bed) and never leaves us the opportunity to communicate, I am trying to communicate whenever I can. I want to have a wonderful marriage and hopefully we can show our S what a happy marriage and family life can be like. This will be much more rewarding for him in his future relationships.

I said, I am ready and open to improving things, but it will take both of us. I said, you want me to go to the C by myself to work on MY issues, and I am willing to do this for a couple of months before you are comfortable in joining me in C. But realize that you will need to join me. You do still have your own issues to work through. We need to meet eachothers needs, not just one of us meeting the others needs. She sat in silence for a while and then went upstairs to take a nap.

I woke her up later and asked if she was going to come down stairs (S and I had been playing outside for a couple of hours). She did not sound happy, but did not say much, so I went back downstairs. I got S and I ready to go for a ride and ready to take him for icecream. She came outside and asked where I was going. I told her and she said, great, I come outside and you guys leave! I said, you are more than welcome to come along if you would like. She said yes, and came along. We had an OK time getting the icecream. I still did not feel good all day from my cold.

Sunday we did not talk about our relationship and just did a few things around the house. She seemed to slip back into her normal pattern of getting through life.

Although MB principles make you feel bad for LBing, I do not feel bad for this particular LB because I needed to hear that my W is not totally shutoff from the idea of SF happening and improving over time. She did confirm this, whether it was out of anger or not. I do realize this has probably set us back again. I do not know.

Let me know what you guys think.

Thanks, - EL

When the spouse is LB'ING all over the place (she was being picky about the spots, etc) then how are you supposed to be as perfect as Jesus.

She clearly does not seem to feel sex is important in a marriage, at least not in a marriage with you. Then what did she get married for? Just to have a celebate marriage? Do a lookup on "Celebate marriage" on Google. Then, ask her to read the articals with you. Ask her if that is what she wants from your marriage. I suspect it is. Since she has said it again and again and her actions show it too.

Well I don't think it's a good idea that you were getting into a 'what came first the chicken or the egg' or a 'You did this. Oh yea, well you did that...' type of discussion (you being controlling, her denying SF). It is important to state to her what your ENs are. Maybe next time it comes up you say it to her differently. Tell her you fell in love with her because she was so physically attracted to you (SF) and you miss that part of your R. Again, as you know, you have to prove you are trustworthy.

Your intentions, I'm sure, were to communicate your unhappiness in your R. You need to communicate that in such a way that it doesn't sound like you are complaining or DJing but more explaining how you feel.

Does she often treat you like you explained? I don't think it's healthy for your R if this is how she treats you. She's DJing all over the place and you shouldn't have to tolerate that.

It really sounds like she's not willing to listen to anything that points out where she may be making some mistakes. But you need to communicate those things to her that make you unhappy. Just do so respectfully.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do realize this has probably set us back again.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It shouldn't. Maybe you offer an apology for your LB and state to her what your real intentions were for saying what you said. There is no way this little slip should set you back. That is just her way of making you pay. She should be apologizing to you for DJing you when you were only trying to do those things she wants you to do. If you're not doing them to her acceptable level she should be able to find a way to communicate that without demoralizing you for it. Let her know that that treatment bothers you.

Thanks baba2 and MyAlias,

You guys are right. I do not know where her anger surfaced from because it was not usual for her to get mad like that. I think some of this all stems from the initial communications that must happen to kick start relationship recovery. I think it is probably normal initially for some frustrations to build up and be released in a hutrful manner when two people initially lack the proper ways to communicate repsectfully.

I do not know if it came across in my last post or not, but, my W did validate that she is open to SF returning to our relationship if she starts to feel safer and more trusted. Deep down I knew this had to be true, but I needed to hear her say this.

I also was able to let her know some personal guidelines I set for our recovery. For example, I will go ahead to C for myself for a couple or 3 months and then you will need to participate. This let her understand that I am capping how long I will put up with the "you need to go to work on yourself first." She also knows that SF is a big need of mine that I will not ignore. She also knows that I still would like her to complete the surveys even if it is a very small effort and not much information that she provides.

I am moving forward and am going to fix myself. I have not looked at nor asked about her emails or contact with anyone. This is difficult, but is what I am committed too: trusting her unless she truly gives me a reason not to. I will also work on fixing our M and hopefully she will become a willing partner in this. I will hold her to some accountability such as going to MC etc..

One of the most difficult things in trying to recover a M is that it initially take a large amount of communication between partners in the beginning. Unfrotunately, one partner typically is not willing to "talk about it all the time." This stretches out recovery longer than necessary. I am struggling with balancing my need for communication to work on things and her need to not talk about things so much.

Thanks, - EL

Well, This morning I am once again struggling to not withdraw from my M. Yesterday I was still bad from a cold I have. I got home from work around 7:20 PM and my W and S were eating dinner.

Recently we had purchased a TV for our family room which is joined with the kitchen and not seperated by a wall. A week ago I asked my W if we could set a rule that we would not have the TV on during dinner to promote conversation and set a good habit for our S to get into. He watches too much TV already and he is only 4! My W agreed to this.

When I got home last night, they were eating dinner, watching TV and she had a magazine at the table. I did not say anything right away even though this had made me feel very much disrespected. Finally my W asked what was wrong so I decided to take my chances and tell her. She got mad at me and said fine if this is what I want then they will do it. She said fine in a yelling/angry manner. I said wow! and tried to discuss things further because of her anger. She became more upset and kept asking, "why can't you drop things? why can't you just let it go? I agreed with you already?" However, maybe I was wrong because I felt no closure and still disrespected and that my W was angry with me instead of having just complied to a joint decision.

Since I continued to try and communicate, my W became more angry and out of the blue says, "everything would be just fine if I took my clothes off and we just had sex!" I was so offended by this and the fact that she is still percieving the wrong things from me after a year of my saying this is not true. I LB'ed in my response by saying "I think you are giving yourself a lot of credit," I am sick and not in the mood even if she was (even with the fact that it has been 6 months since we last were intimate). Well this just completely mad her mad and she ended up saying that I should find someone else for that need. Later I held her and said that I wanted us to stop hurting eachother. She said OK.

Now I find myself struggling with withdrawl from her. I am sooooo sick of the same old thing from her. I asked her to go to MC again because we obviously need help. She said she did not want to go because it would be a waste of her time and our money to "pay someone to sit and listen to us argue." I said, "so you do not want to go to MC?" She said, "no."

Now I am struggling from my selfdefense mechanism of withdrawl from her so she cannot hurt me further. I do not know what to do. I think she sensed that she pushed me too far. Usually I am the one to say good night I love you just before we fall asleep. Last night I did not say anything. Just before she fell asleep she softly said, "I love you." I repeated the sentiments. I laid far to my edge of the bed. She laid closer to my side than normal. In the morning I left for work and replaced my normal kiss on the lips and "I love you" with a peck on her head and a have a good day.

I do not feel like speaking with her on the phone right now or today. However, I know that later (two to three days) she will throw it in my face how I treated her badly over these next three days. Unfortunately, the most positive results I get are when I finally rebel. Unfortunately this is not the thing to do to rebuild our love for eachother and is just a short term solution.

Let me know what you think.

Thanks, EL

EL,

It's a shame your W won't go to C because she is a master manipulator.

Making statements like 'I won't go to C because it's a waste of time and money because all we'll do is argue' is just an excuse so she won't have to go and talk about her issues. She's controlling you right now. She's using her statements to manipulate/control the situation so she can do as she pleases. Don't let her make those statements. If the C has any skills at all he/she will be able to create something constructive out of the conversation.

The whole TV incident sounds extremely childlike. From what I gathered you two POJA'd a rule. She shouldn't get defensive and angry because you were following up on the decision.

(Sarcasm)Nice move on her part to deflect the real issue about the rule by turning it into your need for SF. Your W is really building some poor habits that are not productive at all.

You do need to get to some MC. EL, I believe you are on the right path. You've seen the error of your ways. You've softened your heart to be aware of your W's needs and desires. She's still stuck in her "I've been extremely hurt mode". And she doesn't know or want to get out of it. I don't think you have to power to soften her heart. It's going to take a MC or MB 2x4 to get her to realize her mistakes.

You are correct in that you should NOT be disfunctional just to make a point to her. I know you're trying to protect yourself from her treatment but you are continuing the circle of your R's insanity if you give up on your attempt to prove your trust and respect for her.
Don't let her suck you back into that circle. You were on the right path. Find it and get back on. Take the high road and apologize for your behavior. Tell her it isn't what you want out of your R and it isn't how you want to treat her.

Thanks MyAlias,

Things are very difficult for me right now. I have felt that it is not worth "pushing her into MC." However, now I wonder if this is not what needs to happen. I know if I push this issue then she will go, but will hold it over my head that she went because I made her go. I was worried that if she did not decide to go that MC would be a waste. What do you think on this?

Thanks, EL

I think you two need MC and it's imperative that you two go. No matter what the circumstances are for getting there. Once in C you can address the fact that you feel she will try to hold her willingness to attend over your head. Get it out there in the open so the C can play referee to distinguish the situation. You can't hold back making positive progress for your M just because you think she'll try to make you feel bad for it later. You are only trying to improve the R. Your not happy and if she loves you she should be willing to do whatever it takes to make this M the best M ever.

Hike up your pants and respectfully tell her you need her to do this for your M.

PS: It has been working pretty well for my W and I. We don't do a good job of communicating the tough issues by ourselves and in C we're both letting some things fly that we'd normally ignore.
I like it because it gives her and I a chance to do something for us. She'd be willing to quit going if I didn't want to go. I'm also working to get more SF from my W. We're not working on that much yet but we're working on other areas that are helping me be a better H and Father and her a better W and Mother.

Thanks for the encouragement MyAlias, I really needed that. I will try and regroup and continue on my path. The only thing that plays on my mind is my W now thinking everything is ok and she forgets how she treated me until it is convenient for her. It this lack of respect and unrealization of how she has hurt me that plagues me. However, I do know we are not skilled enough for me to even try to discuss this with her now.

Thanks again, EL

E L,
Sorry I haven't been following up with you. I've been really busy with life and dealing with my own garbage and your new posts got lost in there.

MyAlias threw out some great advice as always and I completely agree with him. MC is what you both need at this point. My H was ABSOLUTELY resistant to MC. Now he goes and he likes it. ALOT actually.

You can force her to go but I don't think that is affective. I did that and my H went but he didn't want to be there and it was pointless. I actually told him I was leaving in our second session and the MC agreed. He knew that nothing would get better and we had no chance if my H wasn't willing to engage. The C was looking out for my best interests at the time.

I couldn't leave and when a year past I was prepared and able and told my H I was going. He wanted to know if there was any chance. One of my stipulations was MC but I wouldn't force him. He had to agree by his own accord. I asked him why he didn't want to go. He didn't want someone picking his brain. He didn't want someone telling him he was the a** he thought he was. He was afraid of what would happen.

I explained that the MC knew most of the situation so we wouldn't have to rehash alot of that again. It would be about us finding a way to better communicate so we could work on our issues. The MC would guide us when we didn't know what to do or say. He wanted to do it on our own. I told him that if we could do it on our own then we wouldn't be in the mess we are and we would be able to fix it rather than go around in this viscious circle. When it came down to it he finally agreed because he knew that I saw MC as the only hope for us and if he didn't agree to go then the M was over for me. Once they agree, even if they aren't "sure" about it then all you have to do is get them in the door and then it isn't so scary. You also might want to mention that it would give her an opp to tell her side of the story, the MC already knows about how you feel.

I know this isn't easy and I admire your courage and willingness to go through this. It says alot about your character. Admitting mistakes is hard, doing something about it is harder. You have done that and your W needs to learn to let go and work with you if you are both to have a good marriage. It doesn't have to be like this, you just need some help.

Sorry it's been rough,
Symphony

Thanks Symphony,

I always look forward to your replies. My W agrees to go when we talk about it because she feels pressure to go. I think this is not the way to get her to go to MC, but then I think sometimes it is the only way. So I guess I should call her bluff and setup an appointment for both of us and get her in there. Maybe I could bring up (in our first MC session) how I am concerned that my W is not here for us but is here to get me to stop asking her to go. Then let the C take over. Do you think this is a worthwhile strategy?

Thanks, EL