WHY IS SHE DANCING WITH OTHER MEN? She knows it bugs you too! I don't dance with anyone but my husband. No matter where I am.

Hello baba2,

It was the wedding party dance and she was in the wedding party. Its tradition. This is really no big deal. If I were in the wedding party, I would have had to dance with a woman.

Thanks,

EL

OK

E L,
Sorry things are so tough right now. Seems like many of us are dealing with some really frustrating issues.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am getting frustrated over what I inturpret as continually being punished for prior acts of jealousy and controlling behavior without being rewarded for my better, new behavior. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am wondering if you have told your W what you are learning, what your goals are and where you would like to see yourself and your M at in the near future?

I can understand that when you are hurt it takes time to get over stuff. That will only happen when someone allows themselves to get over it. It seems as though your W might be holding some anger to protect herself. Not unusual but at some point she will either have to let go or let it do it's damage.

I would really suggest you talk to her and tell her what you want from yourself. What she can expect. You say you want to think and act differently. She needs to be aware of that and how you intend to get there. You can explain that you will still screw up and you need her to let you know so that you can modify your behavior. That covers her festering for weeks. You can also let her know that you hope that she can forgive you and work towards growth together in the marriage but you will do this just the same because you want to be a better H and person.

That's the best I got. Take care and hang in. You are doing well.

Symphony

Did she see you staring at them?

Did you notice her staring back?

What was your look to her and your demeanor? Was it something different. Like a big smile, a cute wave, etc. Or maybe walking up afterward and telling her how beautiful she looked and how you couldn't take your eyes off of her?

Why did the groomsman notice you staring and felt the need to express his concern? He must have seen something?

This is an old habit of yours so maybe you're still holding on to the past a little.

Did you explain your stare? You're hurt that she didn't trust you when you were staring. She needs to know that you weren't feeling jealous but instead something else, something better.

I'm not saying you're not doing enough but sometimes you really have to do a lot to tip the scales. She's still walking on eggshells not willing to take the leap of faith to trust that you've changed.

Sorry that this is so tough on you guys. I'm sure it's going to take a while to get back. Don't get down and don't feel like each conflict is a step back. Use these moments to learn and communicate with her.

Hey guys,

Just venting some frustrations. In our last MC session, I revealed how I feel I come last in my W's affection and cuddle list (behind our S and the three cats) and attention list (behind S, 3 cats, house, landscaping, home owner's board etc..) She seemed to understand, but not agree. Then she said it is because when she would do some of those things, it would always seem like it was never enough because I would want SF. I said that I resent these things and need them to improve. I had hoped I would see some changes in her this week, but I have seen none. We go to bed and she wants to fall asleep watching TV. I lay there every night waiting for her to attempt to cuddle or at least say "good night, I love you," but it does not happen. I do not want to force the issue because I need it to come from her. If I ask to cuddle, I know it will end up being for about five minutes and it will feel fake to me like she is doing it to keep me quite. Last night I got so frustrated with this that I just got out of bed and went into another room to read. I did not engage in an argument because we are still learning to communicate with the MC's help. I know MB says that this is not good and I should have stated how I felt, but duh! I have expressed this for four years. She knows how I feel. Therefore, I say nothing and hope that slowly, she learns to trust me through my actions not showing mistrust in her and eventually this leading to her desiring me again, which leads to affection, cuddling, ranking on her importance list and eventually SF. Sometimes I become overwhelmed by this and feel that things will not get better. This makes me want to get mad at my W and somehow show her how she is hurting me/us by somehow having her feel a similar hurt. I know this is wrong and it is a struggle at times to stay the course of MB. I just wish I did not feel like she thinks I owe her everything and she owes me nothing. By continuing on the path of MB I cannot help but feel I am just feeding this type of thinking for her. I am also worried that she will loose respect for me for not seeming strong and demanding what I want.

I am just in a frustrated period right now,

Thanks,

EL

Hey EL,

Sorry I was out and about this weekend.

Am I misreading something here? You're waiting for your W to initiate cuddling and what not?

Your W is afraid to initiate any contact with you because she feels it always has to lead to SF. She's sees that as the problem. If you are like me you need the cuddling and what not as a precursor to SF. What I see is what I've noticed with my W. They see us as sexual predators. That our only desire is to have sex. They don't really understand that our intent is to be intimate and to share physical contact. They think it's about the release and, at least in my case, it's about the sharing.

It is about the sharing right?????

If that's the sich then I have a suggestion. Do something different. Stop laying there waiting for her. It's not going to happen.

You're going to have to ask. Ask her if you can cuddle, hold each other, give each other a back rub, kiss, etc. and tell her there isn't going to be any SF. Not until she feels like it or is OK with it.

Prove to her it isn't just about the 'O'. It's about you and her being together in a caring, sharing, loving, passionate way.

E L,

So for years she thought that cuddling had to equal sex and she made her wall to avoid it because she wasn't feeling close enough to you to be intimate.
From experience it's very hard to go back but of course unless she does she will never know. Now, chances are she isn't going to initiate this so it's up to you. Here's what me and H did.

Started just holding hands in bed. I longed for him to hold me but he never initiated. Still rarely does actually. Problem with that is I have learned to live without it. I don't really even think about it anymore. Uff, I just realized how crappy that sounds. Anywho, start slow and ask or just get close to her. If she will lay there for 5 minutes then that's 5 minutes that you can show her she is safe and that you want nothing more from her than a close moment. Continue doing that and as long as she doesn't say no or push you away you should be good. She needs to gain trust again that she can be close to you and that you aren't expecting sex. Prove it to her. Maybe then the sex will come naturally. It is up to you to initiate.

Oh, and listen to MyAlias!!
Symphony

Hello MyAlias,

You are not misreading. I have been "waiting" for her to make a move towards cuddling, kissing, SF. This is because for four years I had been trying and waiting and then trying again. The last time we actually were intimate (October 03), it felt like she was just like "OK lets get this over with." I was really put off by this. Therefore, I felt as though I would rather not be intimate if this was how it was going to be. So I guess this answers your other question. It is about the closeness and not the final "O."

However, after this I became extremely frustrated and told her this last April after many attempts and personal rejections that I would no longer request this and would wait for her to be ready and feel comfortable to make the first move. However, I get caught up with months going by, while I am trying to be true to my word and not pressure her by even hinting at anything. I get to thinking (while we lay next to eachother in bed) I wonder if she is even thinking about me or us in any type of romantic way. Then I come to the conclusion that she most probably is not. Then I start thinking that it has been quite a long time since we were intimate and I atleast diserve a progress report as to how much recovery has taken place over the months of my silence. So I ask her if she has been feeling any different about intimacy lately (in as non-pressuring way as possible). This leads to her going, "I don't know, not really." This leads to me feeling like the months of painful silence and suffering on my end were for nothing but her enjoyment of silence and lack of pressure. Then we usually got into our biggest circular argument. This has been the repeated pattern over four years.

The difference now is that since April, I have realized that I had mistrust issues that have hurt our M. I have been working on these and have been trying to meet other EN's for my W. We have both been going to MC (although the jury is out if this MC is helpful or not). I have not asked for SF or cuddling or a kiss since April (my last rejection). Now we do kiss in the morning when I leave for work or in the afternoon when I get back from work. I have even brought up in the last MC session how my W makes me feel that everything else is more important than me (our S, the three cats etc.). She obviously is affectionate to these four and will cuddle with them, but when it comes to me there seems to be nothing.

This is why I have been waiting for her to make the first move. It is hard as Hell to do. Maybe I am wrong for this. I cannot believe my W would think that my lack of asking is due to my loosing interest in these things. She knows how important it is to me. I take the point about the sexual predator comment. She has made refference to my "unrealistic sexual frequency expectations" and how I am "only interested in sex," which of course I have said to her, "this is not true. It is all about being closer with you and becoming one."

Maybe you are right and I should request cuddling and everything else but SF and say that I will wait until she is comfortable. However, this implies that I am totally giving up control and will wait forever.

The funny thing is that my W always used the excuse that she should not do what she does not want to do with her own body and that it will always remain her own choice. If she gave in just to satisfy me, she would build up resentment over time. This is funny because she has not given any thought to the huge resentment I have built up over time for being forced to put up with out any physical intimacy and then made to feel like I am a horrible person for being unhappy with this. I am hoping that the MC can get her to look at it from my point of view and just understand. In the past she has played the "trump" card and said maybe I need to go find someone to satisfy me sexually. When she said this it paralized me because I realized that she is so detatched from being intimate with me that she is willing to suggest that I actually go to someone else. I keep telling myself that she probably just said this out of frustration and anger.

Thanks,

EL

Hello Symphony,

You had replied while I was writting. Anyway, I understand the point know. I also am starting to understand the "living without it" point. In fact over the last week I have actually started to question if I am attracted to her anymore. It is difficult to be attracted to someone who always pushes you away.

The MC (before my W started going to sessions) had suggested that we both put a list of five physical touches that would be satisfying to each of us, but would not be sexual. She said we should then agree to do these different touches throughout the day. Maybe she was thinking along these same lines. I have been hoping that she would be suggesting these again now that my W is at the sessions, but so far we have all been preoccupied with my W's anger towards me. We need to get this under control and then lead into her learing to trust me physically.

Why does this have to be so hard? I hope that I do not ultimately loose my attraction for my W. I also hope that I am able to forgive her for this lack of SF eventually.

Thanks,

EL

EL,

Let's see if I can put this acrossed to you without screwing it up. By the way have you read my latest thread where Myschae gave me some great advice? I know our sichs aren't exactly the same but I think there is some similarities to the way you are thinking and the way I was thinking just a few short days ago.

Your W has made some comments. Those comments are not meant to hurt you but to describe to you how she perceives things or how she feels. You can't change the way she thinks. You can only DO things to PROVE to her that her perception isn't necessarily correct or to prove to her that how she feels may be getting in the way of your R. There's a fine line between communicating and wishing to manipulate especially when you don't understand what she's thinking.

Trust me, I totally understand how frustrating, irritating and depressing it is to hang ourselves out there only to be rejected yet again. And I do understand how our minds think we when are being offered 'duty sex'. Still you are trying to work toward SF. And now you are taking the approach you are just going to wait for her to be ready?

I don't think she cares that you aren't trying. It reassures her that you are placing all the responsibility on her to make SF happen. It's more pressure and she's not going to even start because she doesn't need the pressure.

But, instead, if you did things to change her perception of why you want SF then she may begin to see what the real truth is. Make her see that you really just wish to be close to her and start with small things that she can trust and that she'd be willing to accept.

- Pay her compliments about her looks, her body.
- Touch her in non-sexual but caring ways.
- Hold her hand.
- Ask to cuddle with her, try to spoon her.
- Give her shoulder or back rubs.
- Have you ever washed your W's feet and then rubbed lotion on them? I have and it lead immediately to SF. I didn't ask she did.

Don't even suggest or hint SF. Fall asleep holding her and when you wake tell her how much you enjoyed being close to her. That way there's no pressure and allows her to form a conclusion that you ARE just wanting to be close and it isn't always about sex and the 'O'.

Eventually you may get to a point where you can talk about how you dream about being with her. Make the SF hints more about her than just you getting IT.

Now one might say you are only doing those things to get to SF (manipulation) but I'd bet a bizillion bucks that doing those things become an important part of your R and sometimes they are a prerequisite to sex but other times they are individual ways you provide her with love. These things should be important to you and a need for you even if there is no SF.

Your W knows you want SF ... hints or no hints. She thinks about it everyday. She wishes things were different, that she somehow could provide what you need. Remember she isn't doing it to punish you and she can't just do it to prove to you.

Right now she's in no position to offer what you want. So make it possible for her at any moment to change how she feels. Let her know it's OK for her to tell you she's not ready or not willing to get that close . . . (yet). Remove your physical sign (or lack thereof) of resentment. When she realizes it's safe to feel how she feels then maybe she'll realize you are someone she can trust and someone she may wish to be close to.

I can only guess that this is going to be a long road to hoe. It is going to take some time and some work rebuilding everything she needs to feel comfortable to be with you. And even then you can bet that SF isn't going to be what you have pictured in your mind. The hope is that you find something that fits and satisfies both of you.

Thanks MyAlias,

You gave some great advice. I will take it on board.

One of the things on my mind is how you said, she thinks about it every day and wishes she could satisfy me. I hope this is true. Of course I am left wondering.

I will try to make her comfortable and provide a home enviornment that she will feel that she can trust me. At what point do you realize you are being taken advantage of? How do you stop feeling like you are being taken advantage of? Missing your most important EN, while fullfilling all of hers for an extended period of time tends to make a person feel like they are stupid.

Regarding your comment about when/if we ever got back to SF, it will not be as it is in my mind. It may be because, by the time we get back to SF I may be past my prime and not desiring it as much. But the solution of waiting years for my libido to slow down and hers to increase is not much of a plan either. These are comments from my frustration.

As many women on this site have said, if they go for long periods of time without SF, they start to desire it less and less. I am worried that I am starting to not care anymore and am starting to not see my W in a sexual way anymore. I think it is my W's long standing attitude about not needing SF and not willing to provide it even if it hurts me or destroys our M that is making her appear less attractive to me.

Thanks for your inspiration,

EL

Well,

Today I am feeling lower than usual. We had another MC session, which deteriorated into my W and I becoming emotionally angered and according to the MC putting up large walls right in front of her.

It all started with my saying that I did not think I did anything that showed my W mistrust and she chimed in with she did not do anything that would make me feel that way this week, which of course is totally wrong. After my trying to explain to her that there actually were situations and I worked through them and would have appreciated her realizing this and maybe at least saying that she saw my efforts and appreciated that I was trying to change. She could not understand this nor seemed willing to try.

We then got into how I wished she would show more effort and desire to improve our M. She became offended and defensive and said, "well I am here at the C! Am I not?" I said of course you are, but you are fielding fly balls and not stepping up to the plate while you are here. I also said this is just like with regards to the MB materials (then she became really angry).

I said I cannot understand that when we have been searching for a way to fix our M for four years with no success, and then I find the MB website and order the books, and my eyes become open (after four years) to things that I have done to help contribute towards our bleak situation, you do not show any interest in trying to understand that material which gave me such insight. She said she attempted to read "His Needs/Her Needs" (I know she read the first 70 pages). She said she totally does not agree with the material and that it was only about how everything will lead to an affair. She said if I wish to read that stuff then it is fine, but she is a different person and does not care for MB. I do not know what to do.

I have become so P***ed off with this that I am feeling emotionally done. We never even got to the codduling/kissing/affectionate discussion I was hoping for in this MC session.

Last night I tried MyAlias' and Symphony's advice and I made the moves towards holding hands in bed and giving her a little back rub. She did not respond badly to this and I actually felt she was holding my hand. I actually started to feel some old feelings for her that I had not felt in a while.

Now I am just wondering if it actually is over and if I should just stop the hurting. I am struggling with if it is actually worth climbing this mountain of hurt because I do not know if she is going to seriously climb it with me and go to the otherside. I do not wish to increase the aggrevation and frustration in my life just for further frustration down the road.

The thing she is not getting is that if her actions are maintained without due consideration for me, her marital path WILL lead to an affair or a D.

Spiralling out of control,

EL

EL,

I hear your frustration. I would like to reply back to you with some advice, suggestions, maybe point out a couple of things.

Unfortunately I've got to go for a while. I'll try to get back on later to give you that reply.

Don't lose hope.

Just because you both got angry doesn't mean it's heading in the wrong direction. You two have different perceptions of the situation and that may be something we can help you work on.

It might be just a little misunderstanding of each other's position.

I'll be back ASAP.

Don't do anything out of anger.

Anger is often needed to spark change. Keep making her angry. It is much better than cold indifference.

Thanks guys,

MyAlias - I await your reply and will not act out of anger in the short term (although it is pretty difficult right now).

Baba2 - This is an interesting thought. After the long periods of our getting into arguments over our M and these arguments turning into a circular argument with no resolution, we went through long periods of no real arguments (I think just to avoid the inevitable frustrations). Now I have had enough and am going to change one way or another and be happy. Ofcourse my first choice is to be happy with my W. Getting her angry during the MC sessions does seem to bring out some issues that we can work on once you clear out the mess and other crap. I am concerned that my W will start associating the MC with being angry and she will start to hate going to the MC. When we left she said, "another Tuesday ruined!"

Thanks,

EL

EL,

You two have differing views on SF. She doesn't want any and you want some if not plenty.

So why doesn't your W want SF? Is it because she's not in love with you? Or is it because she has a low libido and feels she could do without it? Would she feel the same way if you were her Prince Charming and she felt an incredible love for you?

What I see going on here is that she's not wanting to change the image of SF that she sees and your hoping to change her to meet the image you have. So is it possible for either of you two change or is it possible you both can change a little and meet somewhere in the middle.

I think these are some things that need to be aired. Your W seems to try to be as open and honest with you as she can yet when she is and it isn't the answer you're looking for you get upset. She may not be able to change the way she feels and she's certainly not going to be pressured into changing. That feels too much like she's being controlled or manipulated.

I can tell this issue is a very large issue with you. It is a large issue for most men. So are you of the mindset that it is a hill to die on? And if it is then what do you plan to do if you your W says the SF issue will never change?

But's lets say she feels it could change given the right circumstances and some necessary changes are in place.

By the way, just because we all buy into MB doesn't mean she has to. Sure we all know it can work but it doesn't mean it is for everyone. Until she says differently you have to take her word that MB isn't for her.

That doesn't mean you cannot continue to follow its principles in changing the way you are.

I could envision your W finding her way back into the R. I really can. I've seen some big changes in my W and she hasn't done a lot to educate herself in the ways of MB. We have done other things. Reading other books, going to MC, just talking to each other.

Your W has SERIOUS TRUST ISSUES. So what can you do to remedy that. You've already discussed your recognition of your past bad behaviors and how you're working to change them. That's good. But trust is a word used to describe a lot of areas of a R.

For instance your W doesn't TRUST that SF in your M is for the both of you. She believes it is all about what you want and you getting off. Yet we've discussed recently how you can rebuild her trust by doing things that she is comfortable enough with. And be careful when you make statements, even to yourself, that you are doing everything and she's doing nothing. That is a matter of perception and she may be seeing something quite different.

Watch yourself closely when you talk about how much she can now trust you. Your anger in MC isn't a sign of trust but more a sign of you justifying your position and not hearing her side of how she feels and perceives things. Be careful you aren't walking around still guarded trying not to be a doormat. It is easy to make any situation feel like you are the victim.

What would be your response to these statements.

- I am accountable and responsible for everything that has and will happen to me.
- There are no victims.
- There are no accidents.

I think you could do a lot more to make your W feel safe and feel like it's OK to change. What if instead of standing your ground justifying your position you start to see everything from her side. She sees you being empathatic and slowly begins to drop her walls.

This isn't letting her walk all over you. You still have to have boundaries but you don't let non-working boundaries get in the way of improving your M.

This shouldn't be a disagreement you and your W are having but rather an issue that you should be working on together to move through it. Start that process my putting yourself more in her shoes and stop the defending of all your actions. If what you've done has hurt her then tell her your sorry and tell her why you recognize it hurt her. If you can't see her side ask her to give you more information so that you can understand her side better. That will surely build some trust.

Keep yourself some boundaries that are free of LBs and DJs. And then lay yourself out there 100%. There's nothing wrong with being vulnerable and willing to see and hear every side of a situation.

I'm sure you can find some ways to say that what I've stated her is too much for you to do. But I've found for me the only way for me to improve aspects of my M is to follow that path.

I'm sorry I rambled on and probaby wasn't real organized with my thoughts and suggestions. I hope I put enough there to give you something to think about.

I just had an idea and had to write it down. My W is very strong headed (as am I). We are so stuborn that we wonder about our S when he gets older and how stuborn he will be. Anyway, the whole SF thing with my W has started to take on a new light in my mind with in the last few minutes.

My W has repeatedly said that "all of our porblems would just go away if I just gave you sex." This of course is not true, but it has just gotten me thinking. Maybe she sees giving me SF is giving into me and then I have won somehow. Not that marriage is a contest between two adults and there is a winner and a looser, but I an thinking that her persective may be a little warped right now. The funny question is, if she truly feels that all of our problems would go away if she gave me SF, then why not try it and see. Would it not be wonderful to make the problems just disappear if the solution was simply participating in SF?

This leads me to an even scarier thought. What if she believes her statement and by not giving into SF she is implying that she does not wish to fix our problems?

Maybe I am over thinking this, but maybe not.

Thanks,

EL

Maybe she was being sarcastic?

MyAlias,

Thanks once again for a good post. My W and I have been defensive with eachother. I have tried to not be defensive and I think I have failed. The MC has asked for a very simple task over this next week. She said to say, "That hurt me" when each of us feels hurt from the other. She also asked that the other person respect the fact that the other truly feels hurt.

I have tried to see things from her perspective. She definately did not have a low libido when we first met. I have managed to create an enviornment to dimish this. Now that I am eliminating this bad enviornment, she has allowed things to maintain their course. The difference is that my causing a bad enviornment was done subconciously, while her maintaining the status quo is a concious decision.

Maybe she is out of love with me. I have asked her this over the last three months and she maintains that she is still in love with me. I have said that I feel out of love with her and desire to regain the lost feelings of love. She interprets this as "I WANT SEX."

I am at a frustrating point and am glad to have a post to vent in. My point regarding her lack of interest in MB is that I felt she did not even give it adequate attention when it was explained to her how important it was to me. I take this as a lack of caring or respect for what I find important and a direct lack of her willing to improve our M. How can this be interpreted in other ways?

Thanks,

EL