We were able to rebalance. The following evening and the next AM we simply spent time and held each other which we both enjoyed.

I'll admit I am anxious to have a positive experience reviewing the affection lesson. This will be our third time and yes I'm worn thin. We have not successfully gotten through these lessons previously. Each time my husband has danced around and done all he can to maintain his IB lifestyle. Recently he seems to be experiencing a shift and appears to want to align with MB plan more then superficially to keep me hanging on. He seems to want the marriage to grow. Still, there are behaviors that trigger me to exercise caution. The notion of creating a environment for our marriage that will help to maintain connection is uber important to me.

So today we have planned to officially begin this lesson....

I have found my husbands minimal effort to meet my emotional needs such as affection, admiration and SF while emphasizing recreational activities has left a hole in my heart. Its like he has skillfully excised healthy tissue (affection, admiration) and gone further and excised healthy margins (like surgeons do to manage cancer) in the area of SF.

I want this 'benign' attacking of my healthy needs through this unhealthy practice to stop.

Saturday we began the affection lesson. We both filled out the inventory. My husband 's is very minimalist and does not include any behaviors to avoid. I have a list of approximately 25 actions and around 6 to avoid.

After we got to this point we took a break and went grocery shopping. On the drive my husband began to discuss specifically and detailed plans to a particular type of karate training. I said I'd appreciate it if he would show focus on a plan for affection. One of my behaviors for him to avoid is setting up a compare/contrast to affection and karate. For me this discussion is like a guy that talks about porn to his wife. Anyway, I said I was worried about his commitment to the plan for affection. Its very hard for me to present my needs because of the potential for lack of commitment and other focuses. He said he has learned to not make promises in a steely mannerism. He said he still remains doubtful even while we follow a plan.

This has been the type of waffling I have experienced that has undermined our recovery in the past. Anyway I said I could not have a 40/ 60 outlook as he's claimed in the past. He has to come in with a 100% commitment to the plan or it would not work. I felt really crushed. It already gives me a spacey feeling walking around a big box store, but this emotional stress gave me a out of body numb feeling and I shut down. I wanted to run. I walked about going through the motions and filled the cart indifferently. I kept thinking to myself to stick to purchases for husband alone because I'm going home to pack up and leave with my puppy . I knew I could not commit to a affection plan or any plan with my husband if he does not care and is going to remain ambivalent.

While I walked about in this foggy feeling state my husband said something that was an effort to help me shift. I do not remember what he said. I do remember it did not indicate he cared. I remember saying simply like a mantra it would take a 100% commitment. I took a lot of deep breaths and focused on what we were doing at the store.

At home I settled in and picked up HNHN and began at the beginning of the book. I noted several times Dr Harley saying something about a marital promise. My husband sat down beside me. HE asked what I was doing. I related what I noted in HNHN about 'promising' being part of marriage. I said I do not 'demand' he make a promise to me. But I can't go forward with him without a promise.

He agreed. He agreed to commit 100%. Its only been a few days but he's giving me the affection I asked for. He's actually expressed excitement to know how to please me and also take action. I imagine myself like a well that has gone seriously dry. The soil at the bottom is horribly and deeply cracked. Its going to take time. And I appreciate the learning curve we'll muddle through.

The date of this incident was Sat, Groundhog Day. I'd happened to read a story in Guidepost that morning. It was about a guy who had watched the Bill Murray movie Ground Hog Day. Something struck a cord for this author. He came to appreciate how he'd gotten stuck. To him each day was the same thing over and over. He'd lost something and did not know what. But after watching the movie a second time, he appreciated how the character Bill M played finally decided if each day was going to be the same over and over, why not make it the best day possible with what he has.
He began to be mindful of his surrounding and appreciate his family & wife and so on.

Anyway, I asked my husband if he'd like to hear the story and he did. He really liked it and it had an impression on him. And Sunday he began again with me! He has stated each day he loves me. Hugs and kisses and cuddles with me. Has written me a note. Initiated the planning of UA time and so on. He seems to be building confidence and I have complimented his efforts. I appreciate this is the mid-stage of a steep learning curve we are in and we are in the hardest phase and can easily faulter or drift.

You catch more bees with honey than vinegar. And this should also meet his admiration need... whereever that ranks.

Remember that meeting his needs is also a positive motivator for him to meet yours.

Yes, I very much appreciate the relationship between my needs and my husbands needs. The yin and yang. I'm not sure why you (HHH) felt a need to be dramatic and bold and enlarge the type and make what almost seems like a snarky remark. I originally wrote those words with intent and care.

I do not see HHH's comment as a snarky remark in the least. He pointed out that you did the right thing and encouraged you to go on doing that. It is praise for your action.

Where do you see snarkiness in it?

Thank you SC.

1. bold and enlarged letters.
2. bees/honey phrase could imply I have been more sour or have not previously used 'honey' to make progress.
3. phrase has been formerly used to gaslight me.

I appreciate I could have misinterpreted but I did not catch HHH was pointing out I had done the right thing.

1. What is it about bold and enlarged letters that seems snarky? Bold and enlarged normally signify that something is being emphasised. In themselves they cannot be snarky, can they?
2. The "bees/honey" phrase is a common phrase that does not normally signify snarkiness. It's like "a stitch in time saves nine" - a homily that is used to teach an essential truth.

3. The phrase might have formerly been used to gaslight you, but HHH surely wasn't the one gaslighting you. It can't be right for you to infer that HHH is doing what your H did when he was having an affair. Why would HHH gaslight you? Why would he need to do any such thing?

I wouldn't wish for my questions to you to be seen as snarky also. I am asking you these things because I genuinely cannot see the snarkiness that you accused HHH of, and because that was quite a strong accusation to make on very tenuous evidence.

HHH was complimenting your use of honey instead of vinegar and commenting how you are doing the right thing because you will meet an admiration need. He bolded the part you did right.

Yes, usually someone says "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar," to someone who is using vinegar, and it is a lecturing statement in that case, but that is not what HHH was doing here.

I simply answered the question in an OH fashion about why I was originally concerned the bee/honey comment HHH made MIGHT (for myself) be misconstrued to appear snarky. I love this site and have a high regard for the posters and their comments. The bold lettering was confusing and I did not know if it was yelling. This type of commenting is not something I've noticed when something is perceived and commented on to be positive on this forum. I am not generally sensitive to comments and feedback and typically gain value one way or another. My husband has not used the bee/honey comment with me or gaslit me with it. I did not know how to interpret HHH post at the time.

I hope we can go forward. I got the message and hear everyone's frustration and maybe feelings of being insulted by the word snarky. And I also appreciate knowing HHH, SC, and you see positive improvements have happened for myself and my DH.

I wasn't aware that would be a trigger phrase for you, G2B. I don't fault you for your reaction - I would likely do the same.

Bold and dramatic is a good observation, however. As your action in that instance is a bold and dramatic change - and it is something we betrayed spouses have a hard time grabbing on to at times.

It may have been more clear if I had included the first half of that sentence as well - "He seems to be building confidence..."

Reciprocity is going to be a good thing. When you enthusiastically meet his needs as a response to his efforts, it is going to build a positive feedback loop; he will be more enthusiastic about meeting your needs. Which will make you more enthusiastic about meeting his needs. Which will make him more enthusastic about meeting your needs. Which will make you...


You get the point.


I would say that all of us probably undervalue admiration as one of our needs, because the admiration of our spouse is a great thing to feel... especially for someone who is attempting to recover the admiration of their spouse.

Thank you HHH!

My husband is still writing up the 'strategy to meet the need for affection.' It was easy for me to complete this plan for his inventory list of needs. Only 3 items to meet this need on his list.

I'm sure he could come up with more items on his list. He has been in the habit of at least believing in tending to his own needs at all cost. This has not meant I have neglected to reach out. Its more I exhaust myself trying to find the 'winners.'

Before we got started on the Affection Inventory we had a discussion that hallmarks the tenuous nature of our relationship. My husband believes he has never expected or asked I sacrifice for him. While its true he has not outright said "I need you to sacrifice and do this or that for me"...his IB lifestyle and corresponding belief we are each responsible to make ourselves happy even in a so-called intimate relationship...In this world of his he has taken himself off the hook to meet my needs and kept a open love bank for other people or interests to meet his own important needs. And also in this world of his he's (not I) expected I do the same in any circumstance, sickness or health, better or worse. Not good. We all know this.

Working w/Steve H, my current assignment is convincing my husband we become compatible by meeting one another's needs and so on as outlined in MB. Essentially we are asking the Marlboro man to get off his lone horse and create a lifestyle together.

Yes, giving him positive and well earned feedback is essential to incrementally move this along. Prior to making the commitment to the full court press back on Ground Hogs Day as described he postured towards the half baked effort. It was like one of his hard karate blocks. Its been very hard to stand up to, they hurt. At that time, as we were getting ready to head into the big box store, he expressed his doubts or lack of confidence in the plan, me and himself. Typical melancholy drama. But its more about not giving up IB and also keeping me at the same time. A lot like cake walking. The rouse is up.

My husband has not started to give me feedback on the worksheet form yet. Again he is still working on his own plan to meet my needs while he's also begun to perform acts of affection. A good start.

I did begin to fill out the worksheet and gave good feedback.

Thought it was time to give an overview.

I am seeing positive improvements. I still have days I wonder if we are moving backwards. I have been participating on Floridaguys thread and keep learning from everybody here
.
Aides my perspective. We fall into bad habits so easily. Like not planning and spending the UA time and getting caught up in foggy notions. So coming here and reading various threads helps me spot the fog as its looming in.

My husband has yet to chart out the list of affectionate behaviors I'd like. Still, the improvement from the times in the past where I gave him a list and he just ignored my list is huge. At least this time he is making an effort to learn the habits. Made special plans around V-day, flowers, dinner out. and I believe the first time in our 33 years he made all plans himself for my b-day later in February.

This means he did not tell me the plans ahead of time. Most especially he did not ask me what I'd like to do and simply make himself available after I made reservations myself and so on. He just asked me to pack warm clothes. He'd set up a nice weekend get-away! I really felt important in his life.

I mentioned today I was concerned we have fallen away from organizing and making sure we followed lesson and MB program especially planning UA. He actually agreed without arguing or becoming defensive as had been the case.

Today at church was a homily /service about the parable of the prodigal son. The priest gave us the insight the story is about shame, mercy and judgement. We all experience them in our lives. Each of the characters in the parable represents one of the the three. Protocol son=shame. Father=mercy. other son=judgement.

I can appreciate MB gives us great insight in how to affectively manage each of these experiences in the face of a great betrayal: shame, mercy and judgement. Both plan A and Plan B includes mercy as the father shows. And while the father shows his mercy the other son represents the mirror opposite of mercy--- judgement-- which most of us do. I love the way the story is very specific as far as how the wayward manages their shame.

I like what the priest said today: " When you think of it, the protical son was really looking for more of what he already had. He had it there all the time but he wandered off as most of us do at times to look for happiness that we think will fill us. Only when we realize that it just can't be found any other place-we come home to God and to those who live in God."

A message I sent to my husband today. I certainly do not want to lecture to him. He does seem a lot more open to feedback these days....

Any feedback from the gally here?


Affection has been awesome! I know its still work in progress but its going so much better! I am still thinking about extraordinary precautions just so we keep things moving in a positive direction and prevent drama. I keep reading MB stuff bit by bit each day so I can develop better habits myself and so I can articulate to you w/out LBing. To me, its about maintaining a solid and safe relationship. These are Dr Harley's words about protection from potential outside relationship sources of conflict. This is important for me because you are a popular and charming man that attracts people that admire you and I do not want to resent it. I want to enjoy and cherish what I love and admire about you most. Sorry if this is repetitive. The repetition has helped me stay with MB.

"To avoid the predicament of finding yourself in love with someone else, its important to guard your Love Bank, keeping others from making too many deposits into it. I suggest extraordinary precautions to protect the Love Bank. Make it easy for your spouse, and make it relatively difficult for others, to deposit love units. You can do that by making sure that no one but your spouse has the opportunity to meet your important emotional needs. If you want to be in love with your spouse, and avoid being in love with anyone else, see to it that your spouse has the largest account in your Love Bank, and no one else has a chance to compete.

Here are a few suggestions that will help you guard your Love Bank:

1. Spend most of your recreational time either alone or with your spouse so that when you are having a good time, your spouse is right there enjoying it with you. Avoid recreational activities with members of the opposite sex who could build Love Bank balances by simply being with you when you are enjoying yourself.

2. If you find someone of the opposite sex attractive, avoid spending much time with that person. Avoid dinners together, carpools, business trips, or any other setting that would give that person a chance to deposit enough love units to trigger in you the feeling of romantic love.

3. If someone of the opposite sex ever tells you that he or she finds you attractive, tell that person how much you love your spouse. Never tell that person how you feel about him or her. In general, avoid telling anyone other than your spouse about your attraction to him or her. If that persons feelings of attraction toward you, or your feelings of attraction for him or her, are ever revealed, avoid seeing or talking to that person again.

These suggestions should not be burdensome to follow. These suggestions avoid disaster--they also build a stronger emotional bond in the marriage. So they are precautions well worth taking."

I appreciate these words. I am asking you to make it difficult for other women to deposit love units in your bank and I am asking you to make it easy for me to deposit love units. And visa versa for me to do the same. I am asking you to lower what feels like a unwritten rule or expectation that I 'prove' myself as worthy sometimes against 'other' women and catch me in a triangle. I am worthy and so are you.

Its appropriate because we are married to make it easy for me and very difficult for others and not the other way around. This way we completely eliminate the contrast affect. To help end this pattern: allowing others to compete and easily build love units while seemingly unaware of creating this competition --- I would like to be able to respectfully point out my concerns until we form new more protective habits.

It may seem awkward at first. I'd hoped you would talk to Steve about this but its not happening. I know you are very busy or very stubborn or both. Still its you I want to be the man in my life that is uber protective of my heart--not Steve, not my doctor or anyone else. Perhaps its the way you have been in the habit of protecting your own heart which is how my heart is being trampled. Honey, seriously go against your basic instincts and allow me to protect your heart and we'll both be so much safer!

Did he respond?

Did he feel like it was lecturing?

No he has not responded due to work schedule. We share this email so I decided to delete for now and get feedback here. Why not?

Are you trying to say that you are not satisfied with the precautions that are in place? What I mean is, would you say that extraordinary precautions are really in place? If not, maybe you could just state that, state what remains to be done for you to feel safe, and see if he responds. I think he knows all that you quoted to him, based upon how long you've been in the program.

And is he not talking to Steve at all, or is he not talking to Steve about what you want him to talk to Steve about?

He's enigmatic about precautions like he is avoidant to a certain amount of accountability. I've asked to sit down and set up a list we both understand and go forward. You know act like adults and both agree this needs to be done and collectively come up with helpful ideas and maybe even have an enjoyable time of it.

When we started three years ago I wrote up a list and he signed off and did not follow while in the fog. At one point recently he said he understood that EP's are for someone in an affair or just after. In other words, he did not see them as necessary or relevent NOW.

He will either be naive about what is expected or somehow misunderstand. So then I'll feel compelled to explain as I did above. Unfortunately he has sometimes said this seems like lecturing. I keep remembering his mother telling me when we first dated (35 years ago!) "If you marry him, you will always be his assistant."

Unless I suggest we work on MB this or that he is not actively diving into learn this stuff. HE waits for someone else (me) to get it all going. He can work very hard and passionately if he really is motivated about something. Sometimes I am part of something he is enjoying. Up until recently he'd pretty much froze me out.

I'd made a request he talk with Steve about what he does not understand. This is something Steve had suggested I do. That way I'm not trapped and WE are not distracted by the lecturing accusation but focused on the recovery aspect.

He keeps wondering why I have this problem where I feel this sense of competition! I've tried hard to explain but also go round and round. So specifically I requested he ask Steve why I have this problem with the contrast affect!

After three years we are working on the Affection lesson for the third time. This is an important need for me. Previously I'd eagerly and earnestly write up my list. His lists are always enigmatic. Really tough to make heads or tails so one can meet his needs. He's got it all worked out so in his world he is meeting his own needs in however he chooses.

I've caught on to his rejection-ese style and am doing my best to stop the wishy-washiness. Its so engrained its hard to not just give in and go off and do my own thing and let him go his own way too. You get so sick of being invalidated.

Anyway, I was pretty firm when we started out with this lesson. He seems much less wishy washy this time around. There is still some of that but its improving and I'm giving encouragement. Frankly, going at this lesson again is very risky because its important to me. It has hurt so bad for him to not take this seriously when this was important to me.

Continuing on with EP's feels like the rightful next step to stabalize our relationship.

No I am not satisfied with EP's because there really aren't any that I know of. My husband seems to have this way of making it seem we either do or we don't--whatever or whichever. Hmmmmmm.

Funny how most poster start out asking me if I've stated the obvious. Yes I have.

It's not just the obvious, it's one of the first steps in recovery. If I understand correctly, for most of the three years, EPs haven't been solid. From what I've heard Dr. Harley say on his show, you have to get NC, EPs, and transparency in place first or the rest of recovery doesn't work. Although you deserve just compensation, you really can't make your husband give it to you. You can't even make him take anyone's advice, and it may be that no respectful persuasion will work, either.

What are your options if your husband continues to disagree about taking extraordinary precautions to protect you and your feelings? You don't have the obligation to debate why you feel the way you do and then hope he understands well enough to think "hey, those feelings make sense so I'll do it." I mean, do you often feel like you're trying to make him understand why you feel the way you do especially for the purpose of convincing him that they are worth taking into consideration?


What does he say and feel about your marriage? Does he say you have stopped your Lovebusters and are meeting his EN's?

What EPs are you needing that are still missing?

Hi LTL,
I appreciate your attempting to help. I don't have a lot of time right now, but I will say in place is NC and transparency.

The most specific way I can articulate 'the issue' regarding EP's is that I need him to change how he operates his Love Bank.

I'm now thinking about offering up an idea or selling him on this idea because I believe this contrast affect comes from how he operates his bank.

He would benefit from changing the way he operates by receiving a higher yield more efficiently. He is missing out on being the richest man ever!

I will be able to describe my idea a bit later.

Thanks.