Hey Symphony,

Unfortunately, she really thinks that if she has sex with me, I would be fine with our M. She will not believe my statement for over two years that I need to be close to her and desire the intimacy to allow us to grow together. Its all about that connection on a "soul" level if you know what I mean.

Good to hear from you,

EL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She will not believe my statement for over two years that I need to be close to her and desire the intimacy to allow us to grow together. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actions speak louder than words. Prove to her that is the case. Stop focusing so much on SF and concentrate on the closeness, intimacy portion of your R.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We are so stuborn that we wonder about our S when he gets older and how stuborn he will be. Anyway, the whole SF thing with my W has started to take on a new light in my mind with in the last few minutes. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your focusing on your W's mindset and how her stubborness impacts your R. I don't think that's a good area to focus your thoughts.

So what things are you doing that come off as stubborn? Give her a shock and do a 180 from this normal, stubborn behavior.

If she's stubborn than your hinting of SF probably feels like badgering to her. You can't change who she is or how she thinks but you can certainly create an environment that allows her to change.

How about a little experiment? What about trying to focus entirely on just touching and caring for her. Forget about SF for a few weeks or even a couple months. Show her you're true to your word when you say it's about the closeness. You should try this just to prove to yourself it is what you desire. Then there's no question whether you're doing it for SF. SF is now a different facet of your R and is something you will approach once you again feel close to your W.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have said that I feel out of love with her and desire to regain the lost feelings of love. She interprets this as "I WANT SEX."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So what is it that you need to feel love. Is it the SEX? Or is it the closeness and the intimacy of sharing and caring for each other. I'm sure it's a little of both but in her mind she's only seeing you wanting SF. So if that is her perception then you have something you can control. You can act in a way that would allow her to see you in a different light. Instead of just making statements trying to get her to change how she sees you, make her believe it's true by following through with some actions that prove otherwise.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The difference is that my causing a bad enviornment was done subconciously, while her maintaining the status quo is a concious decision.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you could do you and your R a world of good if you could think about your W's actions in a different light. This statement here sounds like you are being resentful for something she is doing on purpose. Your W is stubborn but she is also a kind, caring person who only wants to be loved and give love. She will consciously provide to you what she can when she's able to do so.

EL, I know this is tough. But much of what I read in your posts sounds like me not so long ago. I just thought if I could get my W to act and think differently everything would be wonderful in our lives. Of course I can't and shouldn't try to manipulate her that way. Instead I should express my hopes to her and then present myself to her as an open, honest, positive and caring person. I've made myself very, very vulnerable. I've shown her that I'm not trying to change her. That I'm only going to control myself and work to be the best H and F a man can be. My W knows what I want because I've told her in the past. By making myself vulnerable and open to her she's realized it is safe to discuss how she feels about key items in our R. Slowly through communication we've worked (TOGETHER) to create actions in our R that really allow both of us to feel loved and to express love.

SF was the last EN I really wanted to receive from my W. And I took the approach that if I could get her to a C who would tell her she needed to provide it then everything in our R would be wonderful. Well she provided it but she did it out of fear or out of duty instead of out of love.

Through the help of my good friends here (Mysche is a master at this) I realized I was going about it and thinking about it the wrong way. And after making a big mistake I was informed and realized I was taking the wrong approach. My W didn't want to be told or manipulated to provide SF, she wanted to provide it and was willing to provide it in her way. I stopped thinking about how I wanted SF and learned to accept to receive in the way she was willing to. I'm not losing sight of the picture of SF I have but at least we have a foundation for building and growing SF if we both are willing to do so.

Please don't take anything I say as personal criticism. You are a really decent guy and you have good intentions. Boy that sounds familiar!!!!

I'm hoping I'm providing you with decent answers that are getting my point acrossed. I'm a work in progress myself and could probably use some help providing you the right answers. Where's Myschae when you need her??????

MyAlias,

Thanks for your points. I do try to not think of my W's views as intentional, but I know there is a wall there, even before I was in the picture. My W has said in past arguments that she had to learn to not count on anyone and rely only on herself. She is really big on "I can do it myself." She is also big on not being the "typical woman" (as she puts it) and crying and showing her emotions.

What do I need to see love from her. Well yes, sex is a big part of it. The physical intimacy is real and something tangible that can be touched etc.. For me it is also her desiring me and I guess to some extent "needing" me (although I hate that word).

My W complains that I need constant reassurance from her. She also complains that our 4 year old S needs constant reassurance from her. This drives her nuts. She claims that my S has inherited this from me. No this is ridiculous as the need for reassurence is a learned behavior, not something that is inherited. Just yesterday it hits me that if both my S and I ar needing this "constant reassurance" from her, is this not an indication that something is wrong with her and not the two of us? This is the kind of thinking that lead me to understand that I had major trust issues that added to our M problems. I need her to be able to come to this understanding. If not for me and us, then for our S who ends up getting her very irritated and it is just because he is four years old. This is the fragile time in our S's life where he is shaping who he will be in the future with regards to his personality. I am concerned over this.

Last night, I did some things around the house that my W had asked of me. She ended up thanking me for doing these things which was nice. I apologized for making her feel like she had to be defensive at the MC session. She said that she felt attacked. I also said that I understand that she is not doing "nothing" when it comes to our M. I guess I can give her credit for the basics: still being around, and going to MC. As far as anything else, I really struggle to see her doing anything more. If I gave her the benefit of the doubt I guess I could assume she struggles with things on a daily basis, even when I do not bring them up. You see I am the type of person that needs to see it to believe it. I do not believe things that someone just tells me.

Staying away from requesting SF is not a problem for me because I have been doing this for quite a while and it has not gotten me far. I will try to continue to create a safer enviornment for my W to learn to trust again and slowyl move towards being intimate.

It would be nice if she actually initiated conversations regarding how she is doing and feeling. This does not happen and I can see from her whole family that she was raised with never doing this. I do not know if my W knows how to truely be in love or what it actually means to be in a life long loving R. I do not know if this is something that can even be taught.

I am 33 and she is 30. I do not want to have to wait until I am 40 to have a fullfilling marrital relationship. I do not think this is much to ask. I cherish this woman and do think that a lot of our issues are not from me. However, now that I have had this epiphany regarding my mistrust issues (caused from my past) helping to lead us where we are today, she has seemed to have hung her hat on saying, thinking and reacting as if this issue is the "one issue" that has caused all of our problems. She is treating it as the "magic bullet." I am constantly taking all blame for where we are now.

I understand she needs to redistribute blame because initially she had taken on more of it than me, but a person reaches the point where you say enough is enough. Stop living in the past and lets get on with things. I have learned to stop "blaming" for things. She has not been able to become so enlightened. She "needs" to blame someone and constantly has to prove anything that happens is not "her fault." She also has to comment on anything I do and offer a "judgment" as to how to have done it better or differently. I have pointed this out to her and she cannot see it or stop it.

Just wanted to give you a little more background on things. Maybe there is something here.

MyAlias, I have followed your threads and am happy for you that you are making progress. I do relate to your frustrations and I am hoping for improvement for you.

Thanks,

EL

Extremely Lost

I have a couple of thoughts on your situation. Please understand that all these thoughts will be focused on things that YOU can do to impact the situation. There is nothing I’m going to be able to say that will give you any insight into how to get your wife to do things differently. When she makes changes, if she makes them, it will be HER choice. That is really all any of us can expect or hope for in marriage.

The primary problem that I see is that you and your wife are not working together. I visualize this situation as the both of you standing on opposite sides of a big block pushing against it. Occasionally, one or the other of you will give a mighty heave and topple the block over on top of your partner but that person then scrambles up and takes his/her position on the other side of the block. You’re not going to get anywhere by staying on opposite sides of the block. What I suggest you do, is to move to a different position. YOU move over to HER side of the block and push with her. At the same time, NEGOTIATE with her to move over to one of the between sides of the block and move in a common direction.

I suspect that you’re going to agree with me that you both are not working together. Here’s where I think you contribute to the situation – the ways in which you’re pushing on the block against her.

One of her primary complaints is that you’re controlling and display a lack of trust towards her. I don’t want to put words in her mouth but is it possible that one of the constituents of this “lack of trust” is a lack of trust in her judgment? For example, she’s not interested in working on the marriage using the MB materials. Her reason for this is that she feels it indicates that any deviance from the program results in an affair. From my position (outside your marriage) this statement seems like both a legitimate fear and natural conclusion for her to draw. Here’s why: If I felt as though I wasn’t trusted I wouldn’t want to be presented with a program that could be measured and examined for further wrong doing. Is it possible that she’s afraid that if she doesn’t work the program “correctly” it will lead to further mistrust on your part ( will you think she’s having an affair or be driven to one because of her “failure”) ? I’m not suggesting that you would actually DO that, but based upon your past and her possible emotional position in this marriage is that completely unreasonable? Remember, there is no reality – only perception.

If it were me, instead of arguing all of the reasons why MB would be a great system to use, I’d ask her what alternatives she’d recommend. Again, what you’re looking for is a way that you can both work on a program that is effective for BOTH of you. As great as the MB material is, it’s not the only program out there. Nor is it worth the difficulty involved in trying to work it against your spouse’s strenuous objections. I’d rather you find an alternate program that you BOTH are comfortable with than invest in a system that is likely to be ineffective for you. (That does not mean that I think you should stop posting here, though… <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

As far as I can tell, you’ve examined the situation, put a lot of thought into it, diagnosed the problem and decided the solution. No where in all of that process did I see her investing or building agreement with you. At every step where you two have disagreed, you’ve been very frank about your feelings and opinions (which is good RH) but you haven’t done enough to negotiate or build agreement. Instead, my impression (which could be wrong) is that you fortify yourself behind your opinions and shove back on that block. I suspect that you’re not going to make any substantial progress TOGETHER until you are able to bring her into the process.

Now, here’s some thoughts on how to do bring her in. First, grab the reigns on your impatience. You’ve been at this since April, right? That’s not a very long time in terms of a 4 year marriage. Again, you’re not going to see results as long as you’re the only one invested in the solution. What needs to happen is that you need to get a handle on what SHE sees as progress and work to that. Don’t work towards YOUR definition of fixed. Work towards her definition – what would it take for her to feel trusted and safe? What are the things she’s asked for and how can you negotiate with her on those points?

Also, try very hard not to get drawn into “weak position” arguments. For example, if she states a thought, feeling, or perception then arguing about whether or not that is a “fact” is unproductive. It’s not going to get you anywhere. If I say, I feel cold. How are you possibly going to convince me that I do not? You can tell me it’s 97 degrees in the room but if I say I feel cold, I still want a sweater. I might stop complaining and sit there fuming and freezing to avoid the argument with you but you’d better believe that I’m still feeling cold. Instead, practice acknowledging and validating her thoughts, opinions, feelings, and thoughts without giving her the impression that you feel/think/perceive/experience the same thing. “I understand that you’re cold. I’m not.” “I understand that you don’t like the MB system. I find it very helpful and I’d like to continue using it for myself though I don’t expect you do use it if you don’t believe in it. I would like very much to find something we both use so that we can have a common vocabulary, if nothing else. What are the chances you’d be willing to research and suggest a program that you like?”

She’s complained that you don’t trust her.

Do you know how she defines “not being trusted?” What action is she looking for from you that help her feel trusted by you?

She’s complained that you spend all your time talking about the relationship

Instead of bringing up the last time you spoke about the relationship “But it’s been since Saturday… “ I suggest you validate her feelings and NEGOTIATE a solution that works for both of you.

“I understand that you feel we spend too much time talking about our relationship. I imagine that must be frustrating. I’d like to change that for you but I am a bit concerned about being able to make sufficient progress because I need to have communication. Maybe we can schedule times that we specifically talk about our relationship and then confine conversations to those times only. Does that sound like a good idea to you? What are your thoughts?“

It sounds important to her to have some time that is “away” from the problems of the relationship with you.

About the housework (dishes, etc)

Again, demonstrate that you’ve heard her complaint and offer what you feel you can..

“I understand that you’re frustrated with the kitchen. I am sorry; I’m not feeling well. If you will take the time to explain clearly what you need me to do, I will do my best to accommodate you. At the same time, I’d really appreciate it if you can forgive me when I make mistakes with it because, sometimes, I might be busy or in a hurry. I don’t do it to annoy you, but it’s likely that it will happen occasionally.”

About working on the marriage (the most important one)

Again, instead of telling her that she’s not doing “enough” find out what she’s willing to do.

“I appreciate you coming to MC. I am somewhat discouraged by what I experience to be a lack of progress. What I think will help is if you tell me what you’d like to do or would be willing to do to work on this marriage. I understand that you’d like to feel more safe and trusted, and I am absolutely committed to working on that issue. Would it be possible to work on other things while I work on that?”

The things that you might ask her to provide you with would be more and better feedback about how you’re doing.

Also, if she states something negative like “I felt attacked.” Then I think you’re going to get a lot further a lot faster if you express concern over that BEFORE you bring up your issues with the session. If my spouse walked out of a MC session feeling “attacked” then I would want to know how I could avoid that in the future. Protect her feelings.

”Oh, I’m sorry you were feeling attacked. What was happening when you felt that way? How could I have done things differently to avoid you feeling attacked? If my answer to <question> felt like an attack, is there a way that I could have phrased it that would not have felt that way?”


About the SF issue

Again, I think that this is an issue that you might need to practice patience on. First, I suggest you find some way to build agreement on working on this relationship with your wife. I suspect that she’s not going to be willing to put a lot of time into this until she feels her trust and safety issues have been addressed to HER satisfaction.

In summary, I recommend that you pause here and go back and try to build some agreement with your wife before you proceed. It is true that one spouse can begin to work on the marriage by him/herself but sooner or later you have to build agreement with your partner. For you, I think that time is now. For what it's worth, I think you've been making an enormous effort into this marriage and I applaud you for that. I don't want to imply that you aren't working hard ENOUGH instead I'd like to encourage you to focus your efforts in different areas where it's more likely that you'll experience success. Pushing against that block is going to wear you (and her) out.

I hope this helps,
Mys

Myschae,

First, thank you for bothering to read through this long winded thread of mine. I appreciate your taking the effort to help me out. Thank you. You are very perceptive and I'll try to give you more answers here.

I agree 100% that my W and I are not working together and this is our primary problem.

Yes, I do think she feels that I do not trust her judgment. Her largest complaint of my mistrust is when she interacts with the opposite sex. Even when I have been aware of my issues and have tried to work on them, I now get accused of "thinking" how I used to act. She says this will take time to change in her mind. This is fine, but I cannot help but think it is also an excuse to not move forward.

Regarding her disinterest in MB, I understand that there are different programs out there and would be willing to partake in any of them to improve our M. Unfortunately, when you ask her what she would like to do she says things like, "the marriage is fine. The only problem is that your not getting sex. I do not need these books and can tell you what my issues are." Irronically, she is very bad at "telling me what her issues are." I think she does not want to consider MB because I found it and I brought it up and I asked her to read the books. Therefore, it is something that I asked of her and she feels that I am demanding this of her. It is just resistance for resistance sake.

You are correct in saying that "no where in all the process did I see her investing or building agreement with you." This is not because I am trying to be so selfish as being one sided. I have tried to get her to tell me what she wants/needs. I have dug as deep as she would let me. What I get is, "I don't know, or all is fine." I have definitely tried to see things from her standpoint. I have tried to get her agreement on doing things that would make her feel safe. If you asked her flat out what I could do to make her feel safe or trusted, she would say, "I do not know." I am left with comming up with a one sided plan and trying to solely execute it because I am the only one comming up with something and the only one willing to execute.

I do not spend all of our time talking about the R now. Unfortunately, we speak about the R in the MC session and then no other time until the next appointment.

Regarding the house work. This situation still irritates me because she tells me she wants one thing. I do it. Then she complains that I did what she told me to do. This was a no win situation for me. It has past and gone now. Now she is so into her landscaping around our house that she literally neglects all housework for weeks. She did not even go to the grocery store for three weeks. This is not good, especially with a four year old. This is just another example of how she puts what is important to her ahead of everything else. Last year around this time I remember getting fed up with this and I mentioned to her that the house should not be neglected for the sake of landscaping. She held this over my head for a very long time. Even 6 months later she would bring it up and say how landscaping is so important to her and it is one of the things she enjoys most in this World and I had to complain to her about it and make her feel bad for liking something. This is crazy to me. I was just asking that our home not be neglected. I never said stop landscaping.

Regarding working on the M, I have tried to make her see that I am thankful for her going to MC. She never lets me forget that she is very unhappy about and hates going to the MC. Every morning we have to go she says "Oh Great!" When we leave the MC she says, "another Tuesday ruined!" Now if she does not want to read books, use a website, communicate with me or go to MC I do not understand what other "program" she will find acceptable other than ignoring the entire situation and hoping I just give up my aspirations for a better life and accept a miserable existence. I am not willing to negotiate on this at all. I will not give up on the dream of a loving marriage.

I will try again to include her (which I do feel I have been trying for a while). When I go to speak with her, she immediately puts her wall up. I say something nice (like you have written) and I get silence or "I don't know."

I need to motivate her to want to work on this R. I need to get her to actually understand that this R is not good and is in trouble. I need her to understand that what I need from this R is not unreasonable. I need her to act like a W and start working as a team on us.

I am sorry if any of this post comes across harsh. I am just pretty emotional over this right now.

Thanks for everyone's time and help,

EL

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She says this will take time to change in her mind. This is fine, but I cannot help but think it is also an excuse to not move forward. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Help me understand why you feel this is only an excuse. Again, you’re not sure whether or not the actions you’ve taken sufficiently address her issues – though from this response it seems as though they have at least somewhat.

What are your expectations of “moving forward?” What does that look like to you? Are any of the steps that you include in moving forward steps that she’s said that she requires trust and safety as a prerequisite to take? My impression is that until she gets trust and safety she’s more or less unwilling to move forward at all. Is that close?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Regarding her disinterest in MB, I understand that there are different programs out there and would be willing to partake in any of them to improve our M. Unfortunately, when you ask her what she would like to do she says things like, "the marriage is fine. The only problem is that your not getting sex. I do not need these books and can tell you what my issues are." Irronically, she is very bad at "telling me what her issues are." I think she does not want to consider MB because I found it and I brought it up and I asked her to read the books. Therefore, it is something that I asked of her and she feels that I am demanding this of her. It is just resistance for resistance sake. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When you say that she can tell you what her “issues” are, is she referring to issues she has with you or ways in which she contributes to the problems that exist in your marriage? Well, EL, you might be right about her resistance. Again, one of her prime complaints is that you’re too controlling. Perhaps her resistance isn’t just for resistance’s sake it’s because this is another way in which she perceives you to be trying to take control.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am left with comming up with a one sided plan and trying to solely execute it because I am the only one comming up with something and the only one willing to execute. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Aha! Here’s the crux of the matter.

Is this really your only alternative? I can see several things you can do instead that I believe will net you more progress. First, I suggest that you take a step back and start at the beginning. The two of you can’t even agree that there is a PROBLEM in this marriage. And, if you agree there is a problem, you certainly can’t agree what it is. What I suggest you do is get in there and build some agreement with your wife. That means that you have to be willing to let go of some of your expectations in the short term. Find out what the baseline agreement is between you.

You say that she has stated that the only problem is that you aren’t getting enough sex in this marriage. Well, maybe that’s not the only problem (in your perception) but it is certainly A problem. Quit arguing with your wife from a weak position. If she says that’s the problem then AGREE with her. “Ok, honey. The problem is there isn’t enough sex for me in this marriage and I’m unhappy. How can we fix that?”

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Last year around this time I remember getting fed up with this and I mentioned to her that the house should not be neglected for the sake of landscaping. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it’s very important that you find a more effective way of communicating your wishes. You’ve mentioned that your wife has a tendency to go to extremes when you express your displeasure about something. Please believe that if she were here, I’d whack her a few times with the 2X4 about that. Meanwhile, what you’ve got on your hands is a management problem. You’ve got to find a way to minimize this issue from YOUR end. You can’t change her reaction but you can learn some skills that will make it more difficult for her to fly to those extremes. One way to head this off is to pause and think about specific, concrete alternative solutions. It’s very important that it is SOLUTIONS in the plural because as much as possible you want to present her with choices. So, when you mentioned about the housework, you could have appended something like, what are some ways we can ensure that the chores get done and you still have time to do landscaping? I can think of 3 or 4 options those are: <list>.

The next time you need to express displeasure about something, stop and think to yourself "what are the alternatives." Restrain yourself until you have come up with at least 3 good alternatives or solution-oriented suggestions that you can segue into after you tell her how you feel. Stop letting her come up with "solutions" before you have a chance to weigh in. It's not working for you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now if she does not want to read books, use a website, communicate with me or go to MC I do not understand what other "program" she will find acceptable other than ignoring the entire situation and hoping I just give up my aspirations for a better life and accept a miserable existence. I am not willing to negotiate on this at all. I will not give up on the dream of a loving marriage. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would never advocate that someone languish endlessly in a marriage that never meets his or her needs. I don’t think you should give up your dream of a loving marriage. Again, I think you’re putting a tremendous effort into this; I just think your effort might be focused in areas that are not going to give you the results you desire.

EL, you’ve been working on this since April. Your wife has told you that she needs to see improvement over time before she’s willing to believe that you do trust her. Your wife has expressed to you that she finds your actions controlling and yet you persist in driving this process forward without stopping to build agreement. Instead, you’re expressing impatience and frustration that she isn’t moving forward fast enough to suit you. I am concerned that your lack of patience is going to negatively impact any progress that you’re making.

It’s important that you find a process that works for both of you. If you aren’t making sufficient progress, stop blaming the people involved. Instead, blame the process. There is another way. There is ALMOST always another way. You have a lot of alternatives and choices that you can make about your behavior that do not require you to give up your dream about a loving marriage. One of those is to drastically revise your expectations about how long this is going to take and learn to manage your frustration. Another is to choose to not implement a plan unless you have your wife’s enthusiastic agreement – however long it takes to get that. And, still another is to stop driving this process forward until you and your wife can build the basic agreement that the marriage needs some work – even if that means working on what SHE perceives is the problem in the marriage in the short term. You can choose today to walk around to your WIFE’s side of the block and push with her. Or, not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> am sorry if any of this post comes across harsh. I am just pretty emotional over this right now. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And, I’m sorry if this post comes across as harsh; I’m just very direct. I don’t want to add to your emotional distress.

I wish you the best of luck,
Mys

Myschae YOU ARE AMAZING!!!!

Hello Msychae,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Help me understand why you feel this is only an excuse. Again, you’re not sure whether or not the actions you’ve taken sufficiently address her issues – though from this response it seems as though they have at least somewhat. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are correct that I am not sure my actions are sufficiently addressing her issues. I am left with trying to guess if they are. My concern that this could just be an excuse is brought on by the fact that over the last 2 years she simply avoided the issue because she claimed to not be able to fgiure out what was wrong or what the solution was. Therefore, avoidance became her way of getting through life. Now that I have "re-opened" these wounds because I have had enough, I cannot help but think she is in some way trying to escape back into what she thinks was a comfortable way of getting through life.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What are your expectations of “moving forward?” What does that look like to you? Are any of the steps that you include in moving forward steps that she’s said that she requires trust and safety as a prerequisite to take? My impression is that until she gets trust and safety she’s more or less unwilling to move forward at all. Is that close?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My expectations of moving forward are actually very simple. First I would like validation that she actually sees, understands and comprehends that there are some serious problems in our M and that they are not just a figment of my imagination. I want her to take them seriously. Second, I would like her to show some interest and desire in finding solutions to these agreed problems. It takes two to improve the marriage. I do not think this is unreasonable to "expect" from a spouse who has promised to "love, honor and cherish in good times and bad until death us part."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When you say that she can tell you what her “issues” are, is she referring to issues she has with you or ways in which she contributes to the problems that exist in your marriage? Well, EL, you might be right about her resistance. Again, one of her prime complaints is that you’re too controlling. Perhaps her resistance isn’t just for resistance’s sake it’s because this is another way in which she perceives you to be trying to take control. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I turly think she might be thinking "my imaginary issues." I realize I am filling in the blanks here and risking the horrible 2x4. I also agree with you about her misinterpreting my behavior as controlling when I only desire improvements in our M for both our benefits.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Is this really your only alternative? I can see several things you can do instead that I believe will net you more progress. First, I suggest that you take a step back and start at the beginning. The two of you can’t even agree that there is a PROBLEM in this marriage. And, if you agree there is a problem, you certainly can’t agree what it is. What I suggest you do is get in there and build some agreement with your wife. That means that you have to be willing to let go of some of your expectations in the short term. Find out what the baseline agreement is between you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is an interesting concept. I agree it is dumbfounding that we cannot agree that there is a problem anymore. I will try this and see. My W is a planner and if she cannot plan she is stressed out. This weekend we are tiling our back patio along with her dad. She is completely stressed out about this already and I cannot believe it. I have asked her why she is stressed about it because we have the tile ordered and it has arrived, her dad is coming Friday, we have all of the necessary tools, I am taking Friday off to make sure we have enough time to get this done. Her comment was that she is stressed about us getting the tile down correctly. In other words, she does not think I can do a good job with this. The reason I jump to this conclusion is that even in the smallest projects she must question my method or result every time. She will always point out a different way of my doing the project, even if I have done the project the way she would have originally suggested. I have pointed this out to her and explained that this bothers me because it makes me feel like she thinks I cannot do anything. It is like she is being a parent to me sometimes. She has seen herself do this and has apologized in the past, but then disregards it in her mind and continues to do this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You say that she has stated that the only problem is that you aren’t getting enough sex in this marriage. Well, maybe that’s not the only problem (in your perception) but it is certainly A problem. Quit arguing with your wife from a weak position. If she says that’s the problem then AGREE with her. “Ok, honey. The problem is there isn’t enough sex for me in this marriage and I’m unhappy. How can we fix that?” </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Myschae, you make me laugh (and I need to laugh). If I said this she would say that I am a pig and a sex fiend. She says my reality is skewed as to how many times married couples have sex. We have not had sex since October 2003. If I have the skewed reality than the World is a troubled place. She would then get mad because in her mind she would have just been validated that I am an uncarrying pig only desiring sex because I am selfish.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think it’s very important that you find a more effective way of communicating your wishes. You’ve mentioned that your wife has a tendency to go to extremes when you express your displeasure about something. Please believe that if she were here, I’d whack her a few times with the 2X4 about that. Meanwhile, what you’ve got on your hands is a management problem. You’ve got to find a way to minimize this issue from YOUR end. You can’t change her reaction but you can learn some skills that will make it more difficult for her to fly to those extremes. One way to head this off is to pause and think about specific, concrete alternative solutions. It’s very important that it is SOLUTIONS in the plural because as much as possible you want to present her with choices. So, when you mentioned about the housework, you could have appended something like, what are some ways we can ensure that the chores get done and you still have time to do landscaping? I can think of 3 or 4 options those are: </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have to give my W some credit here. Lately, we both have not been taking things to the extreme when we disagree. I do think this is part of an effort she is showing. However, when we were in the MC session yesterday, I started off trying to give her/us a compliment about this very fact. I said I felt that we did not have any circular arguments this last week because my W made an effort to stay on topic instead of bringing things up that were from the past. My W then said that we did not have circular arguments because I finally listened to what she had to say. She always has to make it seem (in her mind) that she was never doing anything wrong (even if her actions were improved).


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The next time you need to express displeasure about something, stop and think to yourself "what are the alternatives." Restrain yourself until you have come up with at least 3 good alternatives or solution-oriented suggestions that you can segue into after you tell her how you feel. Stop letting her come up with "solutions" before you have a chance to weigh in. It's not working for you.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very good advice. I wish I could always maintain doing this.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would never advocate that someone languish endlessly in a marriage that never meets his or her needs. I don’t think you should give up your dream of a loving marriage. Again, I think you’re putting a tremendous effort into this; I just think your effort might be focused in areas that are not going to give you the results you desire. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As the MC says, I sometimes shoot myself in the foot.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> EL, you’ve been working on this since April. Your wife has told you that she needs to see improvement over time before she’s willing to believe that you do trust her. Your wife has expressed to you that she finds your actions controlling and yet you persist in driving this process forward without stopping to build agreement. Instead, you’re expressing impatience and frustration that she isn’t moving forward fast enough to suit you. I am concerned that your lack of patience is going to negatively impact any progress that you’re making.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My only problem with this is that I tried the patients thing and all it got me was wasted time with no solution. I actually think this is requiring a 2x4 and a stick of TNT to get it in gear. My W certainly acts as though my impatients is negatively impacting everything. However, if I back off and do nothing, nothing happens except for my frustration and resentment growing exponentially. I am stuck in a screwed if you do and screwed if you don't. I guess for me personally to be able to live with myself, I need to die knowing that I tried and was not complacent.

I do choose to push from the same side as my W and I will continue to try to work on what she feels are issues and table mine for a little bit.

Yes, MyAlias, Myschae is AMAZING.

Thanks for all your advice,

EL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My only problem with this is that I tried the patients thing and all it got me was wasted time with no solution. I actually think this is requiring a 2x4 and a stick of TNT to get it in gear. My W certainly acts as though my impatients is negatively impacting everything. However, if I back off and do nothing, nothing happens except for my frustration and resentment growing exponentially. I am stuck in a screwed if you do and screwed if you don't. I guess for me personally to be able to live with myself, I need to die knowing that I tried and was not complacent. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think your altogether screwed . I may be wrong but I don't think you are grasping everything that Myschae is trying to tell you here. I know you think you've tried everything but I think there are other methods in which you can improve your M.

I'll wait before I take a semi-experienced stab at this until Myschae replies.

EL, you have fallen into a common trap. Trying to be right, rather than trying to be happy. Feeling neglected, you want your view of the world validated. You want her to agree with you. Even if the point is minor or irrelevant.

You thought you guys had a good week. She thought you had a good week. Why not celebrate that you both perceived it to be a good week and move on? Why did you feel the need to waste time during MC? And create animosity in your spouse? Arguing over WHY it was a good week for both of you?

Caveat: what follows is graphic. But I hope it illustrates the concept.

Suppose you guys have great sex this weekend. And then next week you go to counselling. And your wife says "I had a great time over the weekend. His penis felt so HUGE inside me. It was wonderful."

Are you going to argue "no honey, my penis is just as small as it ever was. The reason you enjoyed the session so much is the 4 Pina Coladas you had at the hotel bar before we went back to the room. You were bombed out of your mind. That enabled you to relax and get into things. Rather than being the neurotic mess afraid of sexual stimulation that you normally are."

Can you see that, even if you are correct that her enjoyment was caused by the drinks rather than some change in the size of your penis, that it isn't such a good idea to "win" the argument? Can you accept that you are better off letting her live in her world, in which she perceives you to be the cause of her pleasure? Rather than forcing her to accept the "reality" of your perspective? In which she needs to get drunk to enjoy sex?

I can understand the frustration when your needs haven't been met. And you think you know why. And you want your spouse to accept your view of why things went wrong. Or went well. So that they will accept your preferred method of dealing with things in the future. I did that for years and got nowhere with Mrs. Hold.

You need to accept that there are many ways to get to the happy result you desire. You wife does not have to come around to your view of the world. And she doesn't have to adopt your method for dealing with problems. She can get to the result you desire some other way. While holding vastly different views and perceptions from yours. And as long as she gets to the result you desire, what difference does it make how she gets there?

So don't go picking fights over side issues. If you have basic agreement that something is good. Or bad. Emphasize the areas of agreement. And try to get your wife to explain how it feels to her. How she perceives it. And then validate her perception. She may be nuttier than a Georgia peanut farm. But her perception is her perception. And she isn't wrong when she tells you what it is. Try to work within her frame of reference. Rather than constantly telling her how wrong she is in how she perceives things. You will probably get much father with her that way.

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You are correct that I am not sure my actions are sufficiently addressing her issues. I am left with trying to guess if they are. My concern that this could just be an excuse is brought on by the fact that over the last 2 years she simply avoided the issue because she claimed to not be able to fgiure out what was wrong or what the solution was. Therefore, avoidance became her way of getting through life. Now that I have "re-opened" these wounds because I have had enough, I cannot help but think she is in some way trying to escape back into what she thinks was a comfortable way of getting through life. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fair enough.

I’m still a little unclear as to how wanting to see a change in behavior over time constitutes escaping. Is it because you’re uncertain how much time it’s going to require? I suppose it’s possible that she doesn’t know how much time it would require. That might very well depend on just how much your actions are addressing her issues, any setbacks you might have, etc. So, why do you believe that the 3-4 months you’ve been working on this issue should be sufficient time for her to believe that you truly have changed? What do you feel is a realistic time frame to “fix” this marriage? (That’s probably the question I should have asked in the first place.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My expectations of moving forward are actually very simple. First I would like validation that she actually sees, understands and comprehends that there are some serious problems in our M and that they are not just a figment of my imagination. I want her to take them seriously. Second, I would like her to show some interest and desire in finding solutions to these agreed problems. It takes two to improve the marriage. I do not think this is unreasonable to "expect" from a spouse who has promised to "love, honor and cherish in good times and bad until death us part." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is great. There’s only one problem. The two of you don’t seem to agree on the problems in your marriage. Just for the sake of clarity, will you list, in abbreviated form, what you have put forth as the problems in your marriage? From your posts, I can take a stab at them but I’d really rather not do that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is an interesting concept. I agree it is dumbfounding that we cannot agree that there is a problem anymore. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, it is a pretty basic issue. If you both don’t define the same problem it is HIGHLY unlikely that you’ll be able to achieve a consensus on the solution. It’s even more unlikely that any solution that resulted from such a mismatch would do more than cause you both inordinate amounts of frustration and waste your time. At least that’s my opinion. What are you thoughts on that?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My W is a planner and if she cannot plan she is stressed out. This weekend we are tiling our back patio along with her dad. She is completely stressed out about this already and I cannot believe it. I have asked her why she is stressed about it because we have the tile ordered and it has arrived, her dad is coming Friday, we have all of the necessary tools, I am taking Friday off to make sure we have enough time to get this done. Her comment was that she is stressed about us getting the tile down correctly. In other words, she does not think I can do a good job with this. The reason I jump to this conclusion is that even in the smallest projects she must question my method or result every time. She will always point out a different way of my doing the project, even if I have done the project the way she would have originally suggested. I have pointed this out to her and explained that this bothers me because it makes me feel like she thinks I cannot do anything. It is like she is being a parent to me sometimes. She has seen herself do this and has apologized in the past, but then disregards it in her mind and continues to do this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Aha! A good practice scenario presents itself. This is great stuff. So, EL, what are some things that you can do (and are willing to do) to address her concerns about getting the back porch tiled? Come up with as many as you can.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Myschae, you make me laugh (and I need to laugh). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, thank you. I do try. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If I said this she would say that I am a pig and a sex fiend. She says my reality is skewed as to how many times married couples have sex. We have not had sex since October 2003. If I have the skewed reality than the World is a troubled place. She would then get mad because in her mind she would have just been validated that I am an uncarrying pig only desiring sex because I am selfish. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’m sensing some reluctance on your part. If you don’t want to do this, I’m willing to respect your decision. At the risk of arguing with you, though, I’m going to share a slightly different perspective on this with you. It is important that you acknowledge truth when you find it. Otherwise, you end up arguing from a weak position and damaging your future credibility. If she says “Sex is our only problem.” Or even “Our only problem is that you don’t get enough sex.” It’s a good idea for you to agree with the truth in that statement. That doesn’t mean you have to own any of the attendant judgments. So, I’d advise you to say “It is true that I don’t feel that I get enough sex in this relationship. Improving our sex life is definitely one of my goals. Is that what you’d like to work on? How would you like to accomplish that?”

If you remain silent or, even worse, disagree with that statement, you run the risk of loosing all credibility when you ask her to “validate your desire to someday restore mutually satisfactory sexual relations.” It’s better to just acknowledge that this IS a very important element of marriage in your opinion and let her DEAL with her emotions surrounding that. She is going to form whatever opinions she needs to form. But, if she’s going to decide that you’re a “pig” then it’s better to just be a “pig” than a “pig and a liar.”

Besides, if you both can agree that this is a problem, it’s as good a place as any to start working. I suspect that in order to work on this issue, though, there will be a few intermediary issues that will need to be addressed. It’s a good place to begin.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I started off trying to give her/us a compliment about this very fact. I said I felt that we did not have any circular arguments this last week because my W made an effort to stay on topic instead of bringing things up that were from the past. My W then said that we did not have circular arguments because I finally listened to what she had to say. She always has to make it seem (in her mind) that she was never doing anything wrong (even if her actions were improved). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see you both doing the same things here. EL, the next time you want to give a compliment, I’d like to suggest that you work on a formula “I really liked X, it made me feel Y.” So, in this case: “I really liked that we did not have any circular arguments this week, it made me feel hopeful.” You imply that she is disregarding responsibility for contributing to circular arguments. She probably is doing that. How open to considering the idea that you DID listen better during the week and that ALSO contributed to avoiding circular arguments?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My only problem with this is that I tried the patients thing and all it got me was wasted time with no solution. I actually think this is requiring a 2x4 and a stick of TNT to get it in gear. My W certainly acts as though my impatients is negatively impacting everything. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What I’m hearing you say is that your wife is reacting negatively to your impatience. Yet, you seem absolutely committed to indulging yourself in this area, anyway. You mentioned that you sometimes “shoot yourself in the foot.” Do you like that feeling? If your wife is reacting negatively to your impatience, I’d like to suggest that you get a handle on that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> However, if I back off and do nothing, nothing happens except for my frustration and resentment growing exponentially. I am stuck in a screwed if you do and screwed if you don't. I guess for me personally to be able to live with myself, I need to die knowing that I tried and was not complacent. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fair enough. But wouldn’t you rather try something that is effective, instead of trying the same thing that hasn’t been working? One of my measures of success is that I understand that I may make mistakes – but I try not to keep making the same ones over and over again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do choose to push from the same side as my W and I will continue to try to work on what she feels are issues and table mine for a little bit. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Continue? EL, I’m hoping that you’ll START. I realize that you have been trying very hard to get your wife to TELL you what she feels is wrong with the relationship. I suspect that she’s been trying to tell you but that you haven’t recognized the information because you’re really focused on what you think the answer all ready is. I really understand your frustration and I do know that you are afraid that things will not improve if you sit back and do “nothing.” I’m not going to suggest that your wife does not contribute a healthy share to the problems in your marriage. However, I think that you contribute your fair share, too. You don’t have to be patient and “do nothing.” You can choose to work on the issues that you know about – YOUR issues. You can’t force her to work on the marriage. She’s going to have to make a decision about that herself. What you can do is work on creating an environment in which she can make that decision with your support. I see way too much focus on the things you are trying to get HER to do to work on this marriage and not enough rolling up your sleeves and working on your issues in a way that is meaningful for her. If it is important for her that you demonstrate patience, trust, and safety over a period of time, then I can see no better plan of action than for you to commit to demonstrating those values.

I really see the pace that you are trying to move this process along as being very detrimental. There is a big difference between slowing things down so that your wife can get on board and stopping any progress all together. EL, you need to invest some TIME in discovering what your baseline agreements are. After all, you want a marriage that is a partnership, right? How are you planning to build a partnership if you’re the one that is driving the process forward exclusively? There is going to have to be a place in this process where you both come together and pick a common goal. Because, how are you going to find a mutually agreeable solution if you don’t agree on the goal?

This is can be a pivotal choice. Stop and go back to the beginning. Don’t move forward until you have found SOMETHING that you agree on TOGETHER. In order to do that, you might find it helpful to suspend your pre-judgments so that you can make absolutely sure that you listen very, very carefully to any little bit of information that your wife will share with you at this stage. Please don’t misunderstand me. Your needs, wants, and desires in this marriage are very important. However, at this moment, you’re working with a spouse who is in deep withdrawal. Until you manage to find something you agree on, you can only work on yourself. So, do what you can do to meet her needs as you understand them, practice LISTENING to her concerns and addressing them AS STATED (not “interpreted”), and find a constructive way to manage your frustration.

I hope this helps,
Mys

Hey EL,

I was a little concerned that you haven't replied to Myschae and Hold's posts. I hope you didn't find yourself too confused and decided to disappear for a while.

I do think that these last two responses do provide you with a different view of your approach and I hope you are keeping an open mind of how you are proceeding. I know it's frustrating to feel like you've done everything and I know you're already feeling like a doormat. But this isn't a competition you are having with your W. It is two people with different perceptions of your problem.

I think if you were to keep this conversation going the good folks here could give you some guidance on how to proceed. I'd say I get better advice here from folks like Myschae and Hold than I do from the C I've been going to. And I know I get more personal attention and support from everyone which helps me stay the course.

Hopefully this post finds you well and contemplating what was communicated to you.

<small>[ July 22, 2004, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: MyAlias ]</small>

Hello all,

I am thankful for your advice and will try to answer all your questions. Believe me that I really appreciate all of your input. I am finding it helpful and causing me to think of some things in different ways, which is good.

MyAlias - Thanks for your continued support. Your opinions are worth while. Please do not stop writting in.

Holdingontoit - it is nice to hear from you. I have followed your older posts and am happy for your success and continued evolution towards a better M. I am also honored that you took the time to write because I know you are restricted on this from your W's EN. Thanks. I really appreciate it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> EL, you have fallen into a common trap. Trying to be right, rather than trying to be happy. Feeling neglected, you want your view of the world validated. You want her to agree with you. Even if the point is minor or irrelevant.

You thought you guys had a good week. She thought you had a good week. Why not celebrate that you both perceived it to be a good week and move on? Why did you feel the need to waste time during MC? And create animosity in your spouse? Arguing over WHY it was a good week for both of you?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right here. I screwed up and when she said she felt it was because I was listening to her more I should have been smart enough to accept that as a compliment. I was not and I shot my foot off. Looking back on this it would have been easy to see this now, but hindsight is 20/20. I am not happy with myself for this huge mistake because I had thought about what I was going to say in that MC session for a couple of days before hand. I thought of thinking about her feelings and starting off with positives and giving her a compliment. I guess, maybe she could have been doing the same thing and I took it wrong. I took it as her saying what I was saying was wrong. I think I completely misread (AND MISACTED) to the whole thing. I think I get it now!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You need to accept that there are many ways to get to the happy result you desire. You wife does not have to come around to your view of the world. And she doesn't have to adopt your method for dealing with problems. She can get to the result you desire some other way. While holding vastly different views and perceptions from yours. And as long as she gets to the result you desire, what difference does it make how she gets there?

So don't go picking fights over side issues. If you have basic agreement that something is good. Or bad. Emphasize the areas of agreement. And try to get your wife to explain how it feels to her. How she perceives it. And then validate her perception. She may be nuttier than a Georgia peanut farm. But her perception is her perception. And she isn't wrong when she tells you what it is. Try to work within her frame of reference. Rather than constantly telling her how wrong she is in how she perceives things. You will probably get much father with her that way. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right here and I am beginning to understand what you and Msychae are telling me. I always am feeling like my W is telling me how I am wrong. Ironically, she is feeling the same way. To both our amazement we could not understand where the other was comming from. If I am able to stop this (through realizing I am doing this) how does it come about that she will stop this? Is this when she feels comfortable to lower her defenses because she does not feel she is being attacked? Unfortunately, I will probably have to deal with her defenses and attacking me throughout this process, while hoping she realizes she is feeling comfortable and not being attacked. I guess this comes back to my trusting of her to eventually come around through my making myself more vulnerable with this process.

Myschae - Again, thanks for the time. I do appreciate the 2x4s and the kick in the b***. Please do not take my replies as "trying to fight with you." I have a lot of respect for your thoughts (as does MyAlias) and I am looking at some of what you are saying as devil's advocate and am trying to bounce things back and forth.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I’m still a little unclear as to how wanting to see a change in behavior over time constitutes escaping. Is it because you’re uncertain how much time it’s going to require? I suppose it’s possible that she doesn’t know how much time it would require. That might very well depend on just how much your actions are addressing her issues, any setbacks you might have, etc. So, why do you believe that the 3-4 months you’ve been working on this issue should be sufficient time for her to believe that you truly have changed? What do you feel is a realistic time frame to “fix” this marriage? (That’s probably the question I should have asked in the first place.)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I meant that she would be "escaping" back to what she percieved to be a comfortable place. A place where there is no communication, no intimacy and no M discussions with me. I do not think she actually think some things need to change (intimacy being one). She has said this a number of times. I do not know if she truly feels this way for good or if it is situational based on the past four years. I have to believe it is situational. If it is not then I have a decision to make. But I will not consider contimplating this decision until I have exhausted other areas through improvement (ie making the enviornment similar to the past where she felt comfortable and safe and valued SF). If we can get back to this place and she still feels SF has no place in M, then I am comfortable with making an educated decision. I feel this does not make me a pig or selfish.

I do not feel that 3-4 months will make up for everything and make it all better. I am a realist. But I do think that 3-4 months of my dramatically changing a big negative issue into a non-existent issue should merit her realizing that I am serious and wish to change for the improvement of me and our M. She does not acknowledge this change nor does she understand how difficult it is for me to change. In the end, all I am asking of her (right now with regards to this) is to tell me once in a while that she notices this change, appreciates it and it makes her happier. This validation of my change does not happen. This is what makes it more difficult on my part to continue changing. I do not think things should be better over night, but I do believe that small efforts from her should have begun by now? Is this not fair?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is great. There’s only one problem. The two of you don’t seem to agree on the problems in your marriage. Just for the sake of clarity, will you list, in abbreviated form, what you have put forth as the problems in your marriage? From your posts, I can take a stab at them but I’d really rather not do that. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will take a stab at listing the problems as well, obviously, I will be putting down what I "think" my W's issues are, but I am not her and am only guessing.

1) Trust Issues: This is probably the biggest one my W has. She feels that I do not trust her and feel like she is going to run off with the next guy that comes along. There are a number of triggers that have set me on my mistrust in this relationship. Working through this with the MC I have come to understand that these are MY issues. However, things that my W would do would not help me (ie writing exboyfriends and just guy friends through email and signing "Love"). My W has said that my mistrust issues have come across as controling and jealousy and this has turned her off and made me unattractive to her.

2) Communication: This is my issue. I like to communicate. I cannot stand having an issue unsolved before we go to bed. She claims to feel the same way, but consistently will not communicate to solve issues and WILL go to bed mad.

3) Affection: She grew up in an affectionateless family. Therefore, she has learned that she does not have any need for affection and no one else around her should either (including our 4 year old S). I cannot accept this and need affection for me and our S.

4) Appreciation: Both of us need to feel more appreciated.

5) Blame: My W feels that I am always saying she has done this wrong or that wrong and always finding fault with her. Ironically, I feel the exact same way about her. When this comes up one tries to out do the other in who blamed who more. This is completely childish and I have been able to recognize this and have stopped it. I will end conversations before it get to this anymore.

6) SF: This is a HUGE problem. Currently, my W has no need for SF and feels that it does not have much of a place in a healthy marriage (her words not mine). She thinks my reality is skewed with regards to frequency. I would like every other day. Currently I think she would put up with every other YEAR. I will not put up with this in my marriage. This is my promise to me.

7) Friendship: We are not friends anymore. We coexist trying to do good for our family of three. However, we are not like friends anymore. I need to be best friends with her.

8) Children: My W tells everyone that we are only having one child without any regard for my wishes. She had a traumatic pregnancy and delivery. She tells me in private that maybe she will be open to having another child. I offer to get fixed to make her stress go away because I do not wish to cause her any further physical trauma from another child. She tells me not yet, that is kind of permanent. She also says, we agreed that after our S was born we would work on us and this cannot happen with another child.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, it is a pretty basic issue. If you both don’t define the same problem it is HIGHLY unlikely that you’ll be able to achieve a consensus on the solution. It’s even more unlikely that any solution that resulted from such a mismatch would do more than cause you both inordinate amounts of frustration and waste your time. At least that’s my opinion. What are you thoughts on that? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My thoughts are that I agree. Unfortunately my W needs to be willing to first agree that there is a problem (without exactly deciding what the problem is). Then we can try and figure out what the problems are from her point of view. You are right. For example, my largest complaint is the lack of SF and intimacy in our M. I see this as a problem and she does not. Maybe because she sees a "larger" problem in her mind contributing to "my largest problem" and this makes "my largest problem" a symptom rather than the real problem. I think I am getting it. So if we worked on what her largest problem is, potentially everything else will fall into line over time? Instead I am trying to climb a hill covered in butter when I try to fix the symptom. Interesting.....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, it is a pretty basic issue. If you both don’t define the same problem it is HIGHLY unlikely that you’ll be able to achieve a consensus on the solution. It’s even more unlikely that any solution that resulted from such a mismatch would do more than cause you both inordinate amounts of frustration and waste your time. At least that’s my opinion. What are you thoughts on that? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All I can do is listen to her concerns and address them as best I can. We have everything we need. We have read many books and consulted many people. We have a trained proffessional comming to help (her dad). I really do not know what else I could do. Last night, without her fully thinking this through, she agreed to let her brother his W and their two small children visit for the weekend. She thought having her brother help would be a good addition. Fine! but, the two extra kids and her sister in law present a problem that all three need constant attention and will demand to go and "do things." We do not have the time for this and it will compound the stress. Now I am getting stressed about this project because this new addition (as of last night) WILL create problems. I mentioned this to my W as she asked me if this would be ok (after she had already said yes). She agreed and said she would call them back and cancel, and I said you do not have to do that (knowing she would not anyway). I know it was the right thing to do to give her the "out" in her mind.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Besides, if you both can agree that this is a problem, it’s as good a place as any to start working. I suspect that in order to work on this issue, though, there will be a few intermediary issues that will need to be addressed. It’s a good place to begin.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is interesting, but I am extremely concerned that is I validate her thinking that "if she gave me sex I would be fine with our M," will only cause her to devalue any other accomplishments I do (in her mind) like say work through my mistrust issues I have had since I was 8. When she says these things, I have always said that I do feel SF is important in M and we need to work on it, but it is not the only issue. I usually go on to other issues such as affection, friendship and trust.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I see you both doing the same things here. EL, the next time you want to give a compliment, I’d like to suggest that you work on a formula “I really liked X, it made me feel Y.” So, in this case: “I really liked that we did not have any circular arguments this week, it made me feel hopeful.” You imply that she is disregarding responsibility for contributing to circular arguments. She probably is doing that. How open to considering the idea that you DID listen better during the week and that ALSO contributed to avoiding circular arguments?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are very right here. Again this is the hindsight is 20/20. She was actually giving me a compliment and I took it as a jab. Next time I should smile instead of duck.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What I’m hearing you say is that your wife is reacting negatively to your impatience. Yet, you seem absolutely committed to indulging yourself in this area, anyway. You mentioned that you sometimes “shoot yourself in the foot.” Do you like that feeling? If your know she is reacting negatively to your impatience, I’d like to suggest that you get a handle on that. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fare enough, but when is it enough for me and the resentment this will build if I back off and actually see nothing moving forward?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Fair enough. But wouldn’t you rather try something that is effective, instead of trying the same thing that hasn’t been working? One of my measures of success is that I understand that I may make mistakes – but I try not to keep making the same ones over and over again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree. Infact I always reffer to this quote, "Insanity is doing what you have always done the way you have always done it and expecting things to get better." I have went for over a year with giving her space and not getting anywhere. I have finally decided that a change must take place for me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I really see the pace that you are trying to move this process along as being very detrimental. There is a big difference between slowing things down so that your wife can get on board and stopping any progress all together. EL, you need to invest some TIME in discovering what your baseline agreements are. After all, you want a marriage that is a partnership, right? How are you planning to build a partnership if you’re the one that is driving the process forward exclusively? There is going to have to be a place in this process where you both come together and pick a common goal. Because, how are you going to find a mutually agreeable solution if you don’t agree on the goal? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see what you are saying. If I ask her if she thinks anything is wrong with our M, she will say only that I am finding fault with it. IF she were willing to agree there are problems and then list them in her words, I would be over the moon.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is can be a pivotal choice. Stop and go back to the beginning. Don’t move forward until you have found SOMETHING that you agree on TOGETHER. In order to do that, you might find it helpful to suspend your pre-judgments so that you can make absolutely sure that you listen very, very carefully to any little bit of information that your wife will share with you at this stage. Please don’t misunderstand me. Your needs, wants, and desires in this marriage are very important. However, at this moment, you’re working with a spouse who is in deep withdrawal. Until you manage to find something you agree on, you can only work on yourself. So, do what you can do to meet her needs as you understand them, practice LISTENING to her concerns and addressing them AS STATED (not “interpreted”), and find a constructive way to manage your frustration. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Myschae, are you sure you are not a pro at this? I felt this last paragraph was particulalry well crafted. I will definitely take this on board and try it. Sometimes it is good to take a step back to go two forward.

Thanks for the obvious time you have put inot my situation Myschae. It makes me feel good. How's that for following the formula?

MyAlias, I have not disappeared. It has just taken me a while to respond. There is a lot of information provided here and I wanted to respond properly. Thanks for your care and concern. It also makes me feel good. - I think I am getting better at this formula thing!

Thanks guys,

EL

Good news EL,

You certainly are trying to find a winning solution. I applaud your efforts.

I loved Myschae description of how we are pushing on different sides of a cube.

I was so convinced that I was doing the right thing by getting my W to see that she has a problem. That problem being uncomfortable talking about our sexual activities which I assumed was the reason we didn't have a great sex life. Yet while she was telling me she was uncomfortable with that she also told me she was trying to increase SF frequency. And she also told me I could learn to accept that when she says it's OK then it's OK. Yet I was so caught up in hating the 'pity sex' or 'duty sex' or whatever you want to call it (I hated it because of my own issues (mainly)and not hers) and I was so caught up in thinking she had a problem that I overlooked what she was willing to provide that would have and is helping us move through this issue. Because her solution wasn't what I thought was the RIGHT solution I almost fought her on it.

Thanks to Myschae and friends they helped me catch this before I beat a trench down that path. I apologized to my W, I accepted things from her perspective and I agreed to move forward as she seen them working for her.

Hey MyAlias,

That is good news to hear. I can see the value in Myschae's and Hold's posting. I am glad they have helped you to turn things around. It is interesting how we can hold onto what seems to be a BIG problem while ignoring the subtle issues that are actually causing the BIG problem.

Having followed your post, I have a question based on what you just posted. I know you wanted increased frequency as well as trying different things. If I understand you correctly (now), you were going to fight your W on giving you increase frequency because you felt she was saying increased frequency, but same repetitive style? If this is true, then you are now saying that by accepting your W's increased frequency, the mere fact that there is increased frequency will lead on its own to variation in style. This is interesting.

One of the things my W always says to me is that she feels anything she does is never enough for me. For example, if we had a session and I said, "this was very nice and it made me feel close to you. I would love to feel this close to you more often." She would say, we just did it and it is not enough for you. I have to tread carefully through a mind field because even if I am complimenting her, I still managed to atleast rip a toe off.

Thanks to everyone for all your helpful posts. I do appreciate the time it takes to help someone on their thread. I will not be around a computer tomorrow through Sunday because I will be putting tile down on my patio. So after 5:00 PM today I will not be back until Monday.

Have a great weekend,

EL

Extremely Lost

I'm glad we didn't scare you off. I read and am thinking about your reply but I do understand that you are going to be gone all weekend so I'm going to take my time with a reply. I wish you a happy, productive weekend and good luck getting that tile put down.

I'll see you around next week.

Mys

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know you wanted increased frequency as well as trying different things. If I understand you correctly (now), you were going to fight your W on giving you increase frequency because you felt she was saying increased frequency, but same repetitive style? If this is true, then you are now saying that by accepting your W's increased frequency, the mere fact that there is increased frequency will lead on its own to variation in style. This is interesting.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The reason why I was fighting her on it is because we used to have some variation. Granted it wasn't anything really out there but we did spend more time just petting and caressing. I missed those things and because they were there and I missed them I felt that if we could get back to that style again that she may feel more 'into' it. And if she was into then maybe she'd feel like increasing the frequency.

I also would have been fighting her because I felt guilty when I received pity sex and didn't realize that although it was pity sex it was her choice to provide a need to me. Part of my guilt was based on her actions and the rest was based on my perception of things.

Now I've changed my perception of things and I'm more in a position to communicate those things she does when she's providing me sex. She's shown me in the past that she's more than willing to change how she's behaves if I just explain how it makes me feel. Or she's at least explained how she's thinking so I no longer misinterpret her actions.

You see, pretty much the only way I'm going to get increased SF frequency is if I ask for it. She's stated that to me. Plain and simple. 'You have to realize that when I say I'm OK with it then I'm OK with it. If you wait until I'm really ready then the frequency won't change.'

EL, my sich is a little different that yours but I did read where 'duty sex' is a problem for you. But it may be an area where it can be alright for you if you just change your perception and continue to communicate to your W why SF is important. "It's not so much the release but the need to be intimate with you, to share ourselves with each other, to care for each other and to feel desirable."

In the case of it's not good enough. Maybe 'duty sex' is the one area where you've given her that impression. She doesn't have the same drive and desire that you do. In the past she's been willing to provide SF for your benefit. But because it wasn't what you wanted it to be (for reasons she projects and reasons you perceive) then you've stopped doing 'duty sex'. So this is an area where you're communicating to her "It's not good enough!".

And maybe, just maybe, if you were able to negotiate your way back into 'duty sex' and let her know it is good enough she would feel like providing it more often and make actually change how she feels about it. It may become something that she desires too .... intimacy, sharing, caring, etc. I wouldn't try this at this time seeing where you two are right now. Work on those things we said would make her feel safe first. Then maybe you can negotiate some 'duty sex' for you and your sex lives can grow from there.

Just some thoughts that popped into my head.

<small>[ July 25, 2004, 08:23 AM: Message edited by: MyAlias ]</small>

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Again, thanks for the time. I do appreciate the 2x4s and the kick in the b***. Please do not take my replies as "trying to fight with you." I have a lot of respect for your thoughts (as does MyAlias) and I am looking at some of what you are saying as devil's advocate and am trying to bounce things back and forth. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're very welcome to my thoughts; it's my pleasure to share them with you. I don't read anything negative at all into your replies and I certainly don't mind you bouncing things back and forth or playing devil's advocate. In general, I just tend to avoid arguing on this board because I respect that everyone has his or her own special perspective and is in no way obligated to agree with me. Generally, when I use the phrase "at the risk of arguing" it means I am going to reframe my position/suggestion/opinion or clarify it and then move on and agree to disagree. There is absolutely no rancor involved. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I meant that she would be "escaping" back to what she percieved to be a comfortable place. A place where there is no communication, no intimacy and no M discussions with me. I do not think she actually think some things need to change (intimacy being one). She has said this a number of times. I do not know if she truly feels this way for good or if it is situational based on the past four years. I have to believe it is situational. If it is not then I have a decision to make. But I will not consider contimplating this decision until I have exhausted other areas through improvement (ie making the enviornment similar to the past where she felt comfortable and safe and valued SF). If we can get back to this place and she still feels SF has no place in M, then I am comfortable with making an educated decision. I feel this does not make me a pig or selfish.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah, I see. No, there is nothing piggish or selfish about having a healthy boundary in marriage. Thank you for clarifying this. I understand now what you are saying.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This validation of my change does not happen. This is what makes it more difficult on my part to continue changing. I do not think things should be better over night, but I do believe that small efforts from her should have begun by now? Is this not fair? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm going to come back to this point but I wanted to pause and just mention one thing. EL, I do see that your wife is contributing to this situation. No, it's not "fair" that she's not rolling up her sleeves and working with you. I really wish that marriage, in general, WAS fairer. I think things would be a lot easier if there were some way to MAKE marriage fair. The stark reality of the matter is that things within marriage often aren't fair. Often the spouse that works the hardest is the one that has to be the most patient and wait the longest to reap rewards. I know I've mentioned this before, but if your wife were the one posting here, not you, I'd be just as quick to use the 2X4 to get her to work on her issues. Right now, you're the one here asking for help and posting. Therefore my focus is on what things YOU can do proactively to change the situation because sitting here listing all the things she could be doing, but isn't, is not going to be productive. So, no, it's not fair.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I will take a stab at listing the problems as well, obviously, I will be putting down what I "think" my W's issues are, but I am not her and am only guessing. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you for the list, it really helps.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My thoughts are that I agree. Unfortunately my W needs to be willing to first agree that there is a problem (without exactly deciding what the problem is). Then we can try and figure out what the problems are from her point of view. You are right. For example, my largest complaint is the lack of SF and intimacy in our M. I see this as a problem and she does not. Maybe because she sees a "larger" problem in her mind contributing to "my largest problem" and this makes "my largest problem" a symptom rather than the real problem. I think I am getting it. So if we worked on what her largest problem is, potentially everything else will fall into line over time? Instead I am trying to climb a hill covered in butter when I try to fix the symptom. Interesting..... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The problem goes a little deeper than a hierarchy of problems, though that is important to understand. Often there are problems that must be addressed as "pre-requisites" in order to tackle other problems. It is generally a bad idea to try to work on too many things at once. It's strategically difficult and tends to lengthen the overall all amount of time it takes to resolve any one issue. I usually recommend picking no more than 1 or possibly 2 issues to address at a time but then committing to taking that issue to resolution before picking a new one. Yes, that means you have to live with some things a little longer. There are several different strategies in choosing what to work on first. One strategy is to evaluate which issues are pre-requisites and working on the ones which have to be done first. For example, if feeling safe and trusted is a pre-requisite for building better communication that means you're not going to make any significant progress communicating until that building block is in place. It makes sense to start with safety/trust rather than communication. Another strategy is to pick the "most important" issue and focus all resources on solving THAT issue. Still another strategy is to pick an 'easier' issue and focus on that. If I were to rank order the strategies in terms of preference, I'd recommend them in the order: Pre-requisite, easy issue, then difficult issue.

In your situation, I'd suggest that you begin with the basic pre-requisite of building agreement on working on your marriage. Until you have that basic agreement, I fear you're going to be spinning your wheels. If you're jumping up and down and saying "This marriage is in trouble!" and she's over there in the corner with her arms crossed saying "No, it isn't." you're just not going to make a lot of progress. So, this issue has to come FIRST before you can address trust, communication, affection, appreciation, blame, SF, friendship, or children. Therefore, I recommend that you suspend working on those other issues and WORK on this vital pre-requisite issue. It's like if you wanted to take Calculus in college but only tested into Algebra. It might be frustrating to sit through a College Algebra class but you have to complete that course BEFORE you can start learning what you really wanted to learn - Calculus. If you decided to skip the pre-requisite class and somehow managed to enroll in Calc without College Algebra, you might feel as though you were making progress, at first. Basic differentiation and integration aren't that difficult and aren't that Algebra intensive, after all. But, later in the course when you get to the chain rule, advanced integration techniques, and vector calculus, you're going to need those skills. And, let's face it, math makes more sense than marriage any way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Ahem. What was I babbling about, again? Oh yes.

I do realize that you have been trying to build agreement with your wife that there are problems in the marriage. What's different about what I'm suggesting is that you STOP trying to make joint progress in the other areas and FOCUS your attention on that issue. That means, that when you go into marriage counseling, you don't talk about circular arguments, lack of SF, more affection, etc. It means that when the counselor says, "What do you want to work on today?" you say something like, "Today, I'd like to talk about what constitutes a marriage problem. When do you know a marriage has problems? In my opinion, I'd say that if either person in the partnership has an issue than the marriage has an issue. I'd like to explore how that sounds and feels with <wife> with your help. " That also means that you put your list away for a little while until you can come to this basic agreement. DO NOT get drawn into arguments about "what's wrong" until you can agree on how you KNOW something is wrong and, IF something is wrong what you think should be done about it. For the moment, forget about what the problems ARE, instead concentrate on determining together what constitutes a problem.

The key component of this strategy (and where you're most likely to get yourself into trouble) is not allowing yourself to get drawn into a discussion of what problems exist. If your wife wants to share what her version of the problems are: you not getting enough sex, then listen and calmly refocus the discussion away from that point. As much as possible, you should try to think of very innocuous examples (coming up with some in advance would be recommended) that are not emotionally charged that you can use in the discussion. Your mission is to avoid bringing into the discussion any REAL emotionally charged issue. Your mission is also to NOT suggest or advocate a solution to this discussion. You are simply trying to draw her into a dialogue. It is very important that you not use this conversation to segue into your list of issues OR suggested actions. Remember, your focus at the moment is just to build a definition that you can both look at and say "Yeah, I can agree with that. That would constitute a problem." DON'T get ahead of yourself.

There are a few pitfalls you should expect. One, is going to be your wife's perceptions. It's very likely that she is going to be somewhat resistant to discuss this issue with you. It's probable that she will recognize this as an attempt for you to advance an agenda. That is why it's very important that you state YOUR opinion up front. That way she can clearly see that you aren't holding some "secret answer" that she's supposed to figure out. It's very important that you don't argue with whatever her statement is no matter how absurd or disheartening it might seem to you. In fact, I suggest you to expect her answer to be somewhat defensive based upon her past actions. I'll talk more about her perceptions later on.

Another pitfall you might want to expect and consider a way to avoid is likely to be your counselor. S/he is probably trained to try to find solution-oriented discussions BUT for the moment, at least, that is what you want to avoid. First things first, you and your wife can't agree on what constitutes a problem in general, build that basic agreement.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is interesting, but I am extremely concerned that is I validate her thinking that "if she gave me sex I would be fine with our M," will only cause her to devalue any other accomplishments I do (in her mind) like say work through my mistrust issues I have had since I was 8. When she says these things, I have always said that I do feel SF is important in M and we need to work on it, but it is not the only issue. I usually go on to other issues such as affection, friendship and trust. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fair enough.

Is it possible that your own internal dialogue and feelings about this matter give her an easy "out" or way to manipulate control of a conversation away from you by pushing this button? Consider this: If all she has to say is the 'magic phrase' "All you want is more sex!" to get you talking about things that she refuses to acknowledge as a problem, would you consider that to be a successful strategy on her part to avoid having a meaningful discussion? I'm not saying it is, I'm just curious as to how you experience the situation.

Assuming that you do feel that is a "hot button" of yours. Would you like to develop a strategy to prevent it from working? I'm not suggesting that you agree with her as a strategy - there are lots of other ways to accomplish the same effect. We can brainstorm if you're interested.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You are very right here. Again this is the hindsight is 20/20. She was actually giving me a compliment and I took it as a jab. Next time I should smile instead of duck. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do one better - thank her for noticing that you've made some changes that contributed positively.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> quote:

What I’m hearing you say is that your wife is reacting negatively to your impatience. Yet, you seem absolutely committed to indulging yourself in this area, anyway. You mentioned that you sometimes “shoot yourself in the foot.” Do you like that feeling? If your know she is reacting negatively to your impatience, I’d like to suggest that you get a handle on that.

Fare enough, but when is it enough for me and the resentment this will build if I back off and actually see nothing moving forward? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I'm not sure. I keep asking you to tell me what you feel is a realistic timeline for working on this marriage. The question isn't rhetorical. *nudge* *nudge*

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have went for over a year with giving her space and not getting anywhere. I have finally decided that a change must take place for me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm actually not advocating just "giving her space" as a strategy. If what you're saying is that you're more or less at the end of your rope and you're ready to leave unless she is ready to agree to make these changes within a matter of days or even weeks, then that's a different situation than the one that I am thinking about. If that's where you are, then I am willing to respect that. Unhappily, I suspect your chances are not good for that to happen but I am certainly not going to ask you to endure more frustration than you think you can or should.

If on the other hand, we're talking about a longer term strategy on the order of months (say 6 months to a year) then I think that you have a very realistic chance at seeing at least some of the changes that you're seeking. It is very likely to take on the order of YEARS to get the marriage where you really want it, though. Change tends to be gradual and building. So, it's not like you'll toil and toil away for 3 years than wake up and everything is great. It's more that you'll get to enjoy little benefits as you go and it happens so gradually that one day you wake up and realize that the old marriage has slipped quietly away. At least, that's my experience.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I see what you are saying. If I ask her if she thinks anything is wrong with our M, she will say only that I am finding fault with it. IF she were willing to agree there are problems and then list them in her words, I would be over the moon. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, this is where you begin. Not with her listing of problems but with exploring what and how a problem is defined.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Myschae, are you sure you are not a pro at this? I felt this last paragraph was particulalry well crafted. I will definitely take this on board and try it. Sometimes it is good to take a step back to go two forward. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nah, I'm certainly no pro. There are MB coaches if you are looking for professional intervention. You can talk to the Harleys by following the links on this site. It might be helpful to get a professional perspective. Obviously, I'd defer to their advice. My only qualification, if it counts, is that I'm currently very happily married. My H and I went through many of the same growing pains that almost everyone here has gone through and, over time, have built a marriage that closely mirrors the concepts of this website. We've been doing this for about 5-6 years (of the 12 we've been together) and actually stumbled into many of these concepts before I even saw the site or any of the books; I feel this is a very "common sense" system. I've seen the concepts in action and I do believe in what is here - so I spend some of my time here trying to encourage others to use the concepts and giving my perspective on how I would work them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thanks for the obvious time you have put inot my situation Myschae. It makes me feel good. How's that for following the formula? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're welcome. And, good job.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You are right here and I am beginning to understand what you and Msychae are telling me. I always am feeling like my W is telling me how I am wrong. Ironically, she is feeling the same way. To both our amazement we could not understand where the other was comming from. If I am able to stop this (through realizing I am doing this) how does it come about that she will stop this? Is this when she feels comfortable to lower her defenses because she does not feel she is being attacked? Unfortunately, I will probably have to deal with her defenses and attacking me throughout this process, while hoping she realizes she is feeling comfortable and not being attacked. I guess this comes back to my trusting of her to eventually come around through my making myself more vulnerable with this process. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know this was addressed to Hold, but I wanted to comment a little bit about the importance of perspective.

EL, I stated above that I was not advocating a strategy of doing nothing and just giving your wife space until things somehow mystically improve. As much as I hope you take my advice and stop trying to implement the solutions you've designed up to this point, I do have quite a lot for you to be DOING that does not involve your wife's cooperation. What I would like to see you work on is acknowledging, validating, and accepting your wife's perspective as different from yours but as being JUST AS VALID and JUST AS TRUE for her as yours are for you. Don't underestimate the difficulty of this exercise. It's hard, hard, HARD work. You're going to mess it up and mess it up badly quite a few times before you get it right.

At the same time you're learning to accept your wife's perspective, I want you to HOLD ON TO your own perspective. Understanding that she feels differently than you do and that she is also "right" does not mean that you have to change YOUR mind about anything. Let me give you an example.

Suppose you're working on building agreement on what constitutes a problem in your marriage. In my marriage, we have agreed that anytime one of the partners has a problem, the marriage has a problem (this is built on a basic agreement that marriage is a partnership). The MB concepts encapsulate this in the POJA: Never do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of your spouse. From your perspective, you have a list of things that you perceive as problems. She might have a different list. It is not important for those lists to merge in order to come to a basic agreement of what is a problem in your marriage. It is also not going to be important that she agrees that any particular problem IS a problem the same way you do in order to work on it. In other words, if you believe that communication is a problem for the reasons you listed, she might agree that it is a problem ONLY BECAUSE you feel it is a problem. If you are constantly working towards trying to not only get her to agree that there IS a problem but also to agree to FEEL about it or THINK about it the same way that you do, then you are advancing a weak position argument. You are also guilty of a Disrespectful Judgment.

I'm going to haul My Alias in here as an example. He had a problem with the frequency of SF in his relationship. His wife was willing to acknowledge that it was a problem for HIM and thus was a problem for her. He spent some time trying to cajole her into adopting his position on SF and, to that end, advanced a "solution" designed to change her mind by changing her perspective on what SF entailed FOR HER. He didn't have much success with that. What he did have success with was accepting her perspective as absolutely valid and true FOR HER and working with that and her willingness to acknowledge his perspective to build a mutually satisfactory agreement. (My Alias, I hope I didn't slander you TOO MUCH with that synopsis. If I did, I'm sure you'll set me straight.)

So, what happens if you have a problem with or are hurt by your wife's perceptions? For example, you don't want your wife to think you're only interested in more sex because it hurts your feelings. First, understand that perceptions can change BUT they almost NEVER change because of arguments, explanations, or words. They change because of actions. If you want to change your wife's perception about how you feel about SF, then you have to evaluate each and every action you take and decide whether or not it reinforces that perception. You don't have to be perfect, but if the majority of your ACTIONS over time do not reinforce that perception, it's likely that her perception will change.

There are a number of very damaging perceptions about you that your wife has stated. One is that she feels you are controlling. You say that you have changed your behavior but that doesn't mean that she has changed her perception. And, until that perception changes, you still have to monitor your actions and evaluate them to see whether or not they are reinforcing that perception. When you left her an "out" for inviting company over during the weekend, would you say that reinforced her perception or not? (I would say it did not reinforce it.)

So, in summary, your assignment should you choose to accept it is:

- Refrain from any further attempts to convince your wife to work on specific problems from your list until you have built agreement with her on what constitutes a problem in your marriage.
- Learn to accept as valid and true FOR HER, your wife's unique thoughts, feelings, and perspective on the marriage and accepting them as SEPARATE and COMPLETE from your own.
- Explore the idea within yourself that it is OK to work on the same problem for different reasons and that you can still negotiate a satisfactory solution even with the disparity.

Hrm. I usually only like to give 1-2 things to work on and look at that, I gave you 3. Ah well, you can do it.

How did the tile project go?

Mys

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">(My Alias, I hope I didn't slander you TOO MUCH with that synopsis. If I did, I'm sure you'll set me straight.)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Slander away! As long as it is the truth I can take it. I'm big enough to admit when I've been a bit of a cad and also missed the boat when I reacted poorly to a M situation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">His wife was willing to acknowledge that it was a problem for HIM and thus was a problem for her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I really think that Myschae is on to something here. Your first step is to take a step back and get agreement with each other about what constitutes a problem in the M.

This is where my M is ahead of the game from yours. My W acknowledged that there was a problem and eventually we came to a mutual agreement on how we were going to address it.

So once you two get to the point where you agree what constitutes a problem you can start working together, as partners, to find possible solutions to fix it.

Bah, forget about all this marriage stuff. The REALLY important question in this thread is how can My Alias manage to say in ONE sentence what it takes me like 10,000 words to spit out?!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So once you two get to the point where you agree what constitutes a problem you can start working together, as partners, to find possible solutions to fix it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hrmpf.

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