Ah, but it takes 10,000 words to explain how to get to THE point that I referred to. My statement just over simplifies things. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Please keep spitting Myschae!!!!!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hey guys,

Just a quick post here and I will later answer your other posts. I ended up taking Friday through Monday off to work on the patio. It was not supposed to rain, but it did. Every hour we had to cover up the patio wait for the rain to stop and then uncover it. What a pain! We are about 70% done. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Anyway, I thought the week went pretty well. I actually explained to my W that I thought I was having a problem with the SF, which I now think is a symptom of a bigger problem with in our M. I also said that I could understand that fixing the symptom (SF) would not fix the bigger problem. Therefore, I could understand her perspective that no SF was not a problem. She agreed. I was happy with this agreement.

Then we got into working on the patio together for four days. This is difficult for any couple (even ones with the best Ms). We had one disagreement from this that carried into MC this morning. The disagreement is not important, it is the fact that it carried over into MC.

The MC is fixed on our resolving these conflicts and how we accomplish this. I am interested in regaining our love for eachother. My W hates going to the C and dislikes it because we argue when we are at the C when we could "do this at home." Myschae, you must have super powers. I am sitting in the MC's office talking about how I want to improve our love for eachother and my W is sitting there with her arms crossed looking away. My W is at the stage of actually changing reality to suit her feelings of anger towards me. I cannot succeed in showing her positive change if she is going to make up things to make her feel her being angry with me is OK. This will get me mad because it is not only unfair, but not right. The last two MC sessions (today and last week) I have left the MC wanting to just get away from my W. This is sad and today is our anniversary. My W said today is ruined from our MC. I am not sure she is going to go back. I just do not know anymore.

In her mind I get no credit for what I do, but I should be shown anger towards for what I have done years ago. Its not like I have ever beat her, cheated on her, mistreated our child. For goodness sakes, I am human and make mistakes. I am able to change for the better and to be happy. People around me are able to be happy with me. I do not understand why it seems like she is just unwilling to make this M better. It is as though she needs us to have problems. Today, driving my 4 year old son to school/daycare, he asked me how come everything makes mommy have an Octipus face. Now, I thought this was funny, but it does show perspective - even from a 4 year old.

I am starting to question the MC and her abilities. The problem I have is that my W will never go to another MC again if I drop this one. My W does not take anything home from the MC session other than pent up anger over rehashed arguments that we have previously gotten over. The last three times I have seen my W actually shed a tear in the MC sessions. She never cries. Is this good? Is this bad? I do not know.

I do not know what to do about tonight. I have made reservations for a nice dinner with my W tonight. I do not even feel like spending the time or the money with her tonight. I am sure she probably feels the same.

Anyway, I just wanted to vent.

Thanks, and I will respond to your posts.

EL

Good Morning Guys,

Last night was our anniversary. I want to explain how the day went. We started off the morning with the MC and this did not go very well. My W, as I indicated in an earlier post, left the MC with the idea that the day was ruined. We did not talk at all during the day.

I left work early to get things ready for the evening. It is our second year anniversary (we waited to get married after having our son). Therefore, the tradition is cotton, the jewler's list is Garnet (which is my W's birth stone). Therefore, I picked up a nice cotton blanket and a set of diamond & Garnet earings. I also picked up a nice bottle of champagne (from Italy). I had only told my W to dress nice and have the evening open (I like surprising her even though she does not like not knowing what were doing). I took care of babysitter arrangements. I also got home early, while she was getting ready to go and I cleaned the downstairs family room around the fireplace (for later). While I was cleaning, I noticed a store bag on the kitchen counter and realized it contained an anniversary card for me that needed to be signed and put in the envelope. I acted as though I did not see this and cleaned around it. When we were ready to leave, I had to remind her to put on her wedding rings. She had taken them off to work on the patio and had not put them back on.

Before we left my W decided to give me an anniversary gift. She got me a patio fireplace. She had showed me adds for this and I had mentioned that I did not really think these were what I liked. She got this anyway and used it as a gift for me.

We went to dinner at a very nice resturant that happened to be located in a hotel. Dinner was nice and went well. It came to the end of dinner and I said that the evening is not over, and I had another surprise for her. She got a sour look on her face and said, "Don't tell me you got a room in the hotel?" This really hurt me and I said that I did not, but what would have been wrong with that if I had? I said I would hope that someday we could have the M that you would think it was nice and special to have a nice dinner in a hotel like this and I then surprise you with a room. She said that it is not. This started the unraveling of the evening.

We drove back home and did not speak much in the car. I tried to pull myself out of the negative mental spin from being hit upside the head with a crowbar while I was trying to make for a very nice evening for my W. We got home and she asked if I was going to get our S. It was 8:45 and I said no.

We went inside and I brought her over to the fire place and said, "Oh, wait hear a minute, something is missing." I then went and got her blanket I had bought and said, this is a gift of cotton for you and then spread it out for her to lay down in front of the fireplace. I then said what a minute, something else would make this a little more special. I went to the fridge and pulled out the nice bottle of champagne that I had convienently hidding there hours before. I got our wedding crystal glasses that we had used in our wedding and on our first anniversary and poured us the champagne. Before we took our first drink, I said, "wait, no, this is not perfect yet. There is something missing." I went and got her last gift (the diamond and garnet earings). I explained to her that there was a special jewlers list and garnet was the stone for the second anniversary. She said, garnet is my birth stone." I said, "I know." She said thank you and it was beautiful. She gave me a kiss. Then I toasted to many more wonderful years together. We drank the champagne and laid down in front of the fire.

I kissed her passionately for about two minutes and it seemed like she was not getting into it or really responding. She started complaining about how sore she was from all the tile we had put down on our patio. She said her back, legs and everything was hurting. We sat there in front of the fire for about 10 minutes and she started to fall asleep. This is when I announced that I was going to get our S. I left and got our S back. We put him to bed and she crawled into bed with her glass of champagne set aside and the bottle left downstairs. She kept yawning and saying how tired she was. I went downstairs and drank more champagne. This is when I realized that she had completely forgot my anniversary card, which was sitting out in the open. She never signed it or anything.

She came down stairs and asked me what I was doing and what was wrong. Not wanting to ruin the evening further, I said, " I wanted to drink more champagne and was not ready to go to sleep at 9:30." I said I was fine. She went back to bed.

I read a selfhelp book called the "Sex-Starved Marriage." When I got tired, I went up to bed at about 11:15. She was asleep. I got in bed and went to sleep. This morning I got up for work at 5:45 and left at 6:30. I went over to her in bed (as I do every morning) and gave her a kiss goodbye. She said "Have a nice day, I love you." I said, "I love you too."

This description gives you an idea of the pain I have from this R. I am so hurt that my W does not seemed to show appreciation (atleast not in the way I need it) for an nice effort put forth to be romantic. I cannot remain going through life as this scenario portrays. All this is doing is building up resentment, frustration and anger. I am getting depressed from all of this. It is affecting my work and the rest of my life. I am trying everything I know to change things and improve the situation, but I feel I am failing miserably. Please give me some feed back as to others take on this scenario. I know my W needs to understand that I am not after just sex and that everything does not always have to lead to sex, but for crying out loud people. This scenario stinks!

Sad and unsure,

EL

Hey buddy,

I understand your pain. I certainly am not going to get into a W bashing conversation with you. But I am sorry that you are putting forth an effort and aren't reaping the benefits of your work.

Your W is in withdrawal. If she loved you enough she would be appreciative of the evening. She wouldn't feel that sex is unnecessary or she'd at least realize it is important enough to you that she'd provide it for you.

As sad as it is to say I'm not surprised at all by your W's actions. I'm sure she spent the evening feeling on edge just waiting for the implication of sex to come up.

I would encourage you to look back on the conversation you had with her in regards to SF.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I actually explained to my W that I thought I was having a problem with the SF, which I now think is a symptom of a bigger problem within our M. I also said that I could understand that fixing the symptom (SF) would not fix the bigger problem. Therefore, I could understand her perspective that no SF was not a problem. She agreed. I was happy with this agreement.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Isn't this the agreement Myschae was looking for you two to get to????

So you have agreement that there is a bigger problem. She can no longer act or state that everything is fine and that she is happy with the M. Start from there. Get some agreement on what the bigger problem is. Work together to fix it. Then after some time has gone by and the bigger problems are gone then SF can become the highest priority problem.

EL, I can see that this SF issue isn't going away anytime soon. Getting resentful due to a lack of SF is not going to be productive. You can choose to get angry over the SF issue or realize that that issue will be addressed when the bigger problems are fixed. You also have to remember that your W being where she's at isn't just a choice she's made. She's where she's at based on years of bad behaviors on both your parts. When you start feeling resentful remember that it took a long time to get where your at and you had a hand in creating where your at. You've been working to fix those yourself but you haven't had any agreement from your W on what and how to work on the issues. She's agreed there are bigger problems so work to get agreement on how to fix them.

I'm sorry to this say this but you're going to need a lot of patience, you're going to have to give this some more time and plenty more effort and you're going to have to do without your needs being met for a while.

Set a path that she would like to follow for fixing what's wrong in the M. What would that path look like? What's first on the list?

Safety, trust, respect, admiration, affection?

Work together to set some realistic goals.

Ouch. I kept flinching as I read your post. I have to say it looks like both of you are doing some of the same things.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Extremely Lost:
Good Morning Guys,

Last night was our anniversary. I want to explain how the day went. We started off the morning with the MC and this did not go very well. My W, as I indicated in an earlier post, left the MC with the idea that the day was ruined. We did not talk at all during the day.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I could see where this would be frustrating for you. Your wife had said previously that she didn't like going to MC and you've said you find it disheartening to go because you fight? Maybe it's not a good idea to try to have MC and a romantic evening on the same day. Your wife's statement to me sounds like a not very expansive attempt to explain that she can't go from that atmosphere to romantic intimacy in a single day. I don't blame her -- I can't either. I do sympathize with any frustration you feel that she didn't explain it more verbosely.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I left work early to get things ready for the evening. It is our second year anniversary (we waited to get married after having our son). Therefore, the tradition is cotton, the jewler's list is Garnet (which is my W's birth stone). Therefore, I picked up a nice cotton blanket and a set of diamond & Garnet earings. I also picked up a nice bottle of champagne (from Italy). I had only told my W to dress nice and have the evening open (I like surprising her even though she does not like not knowing what were doing).

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whoa, she doesn't like surprise plans, so you decided to give her a surprise evening as an anniversary gift? Why? You know she doesn't like it. Is this a present for her or for you?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I took care of babysitter arrangements. I also got home early, while she was getting ready to go and I cleaned the downstairs family room around the fireplace (for later). While I was cleaning, I noticed a store bag on the kitchen counter and realized it contained an anniversary card for me that needed to be signed and put in the envelope. I acted as though I did not see this and cleaned around it. When we were ready to leave, I had to remind her to put on her wedding rings. She had taken them off to work on the patio and had not put them back on.

Before we left my W decided to give me an anniversary gift. She got me a patio fireplace. She had showed me adds for this and I had mentioned that I did not really think these were what I liked. She got this anyway and used it as a gift for me.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I could see where this would be frustrating and painful, and it seems very selfish to give a gift knowing the other person doesn't want it but you do. You both did this -- she with the fireplace and you with the surprise evening. Ouch.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

We went to dinner at a very nice resturant that happened to be located in a hotel. Dinner was nice and went well. It came to the end of dinner and I said that the evening is not over, and I had another surprise for her. She got a sour look on her face and said, "Don't tell me you got a room in the hotel?" This really hurt me and I said that I did not, but what would have been wrong with that if I had?

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What would be wrong? You know she doesn't like surprise plans -- that's what's wrong. It's worse than the fireplace, because not only does she get a gift that she doesn't want but you do (surprise night in hotel), but she's expected to perform sexually IN that gift, in surroundings that are themselves a statement of your disregard for her wishes. I couldn't do it either.

Yes the way she stated her objection was ungracious and unhelpful, and I could see why you'd be frustrated. I think she was probably painfully frustrated with trying to go from MC hostility and fighting to romantic evening in one day, and since she knows you know she doesn't like surprises but you're staging them anyway, she probably felt at a loss how to state her confusion and frustration this time, since stating it doesn't seem to help.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I said I would hope that someday we could have the M that you would think it was nice and special to have a nice dinner in a hotel like this and I then surprise you with a room. She said that it is not. This started the unraveling of the evening.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OUCH. "I would hope that someday we could have a marriage where you would think and act like it was nice and special for me to put you in a situation you hate and expect you to perform sexually." I don't know what your wife was feeling, but I'd have been wanting to burst into hysterical tears and/or throw up.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

We drove back home and did not speak much in the car. I tried to pull myself out of the negative mental spin from being hit upside the head with a crowbar while I was trying to make for a very nice evening for my W.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can really feel for you how painfully frustrating it must be to put in so much effort creating a nice evening with so many details and have it go unappreciated. I can't help but wonder though, why you would set yourself up for this by expecting someone to be romantically moved by something you know they don't like. You keep saying it's "for you wife", but how can it be for her when you know she won't like it? It sounds like it's for you, not for her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

We got home and she asked if I was going to get our S. It was 8:45 and I said no.

We went inside and I brought her over to the fire place and said, "Oh, wait hear a minute, something is missing." I then went and got her blanket I had bought and said, this is a gift of cotton for you and then spread it out for her to lay down in front of the fireplace. I then said what a minute, something else would make this a little more special. I went to the fridge and pulled out the nice bottle of champagne that I had convienently hidding there hours before. I got our wedding crystal glasses that we had used in our wedding and on our first anniversary and poured us the champagne. Before we took our first drink, I said, "wait, no, this is not perfect yet. There is something missing." I went and got her last gift (the diamond and garnet earings). I explained to her that there was a special jewlers list and garnet was the stone for the second anniversary. She said, garnet is my birth stone." I said, "I know." She said thank you and it was beautiful. She gave me a kiss. Then I toasted to many more wonderful years together. We drank the champagne and laid down in front of the fire.

I kissed her passionately for about two minutes and it seemed like she was not getting into it or really responding. She started complaining about how sore she was from all the tile we had put down on our patio. She said her back, legs and everything was hurting.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It could be she was trying to find away to tell you that she just couldn't make the transition to romantic encounter after the stresses of the day. It looks to me like she tried to tell you that in several ways over the course of the day, and her attempts weren't working and she was puzzled how to explain it in a helpful or at least non-hurtful way.

It could also be that she was trying to figure out how to explain that with all the soreness she was feeling (maybe both physical and emotional) she needed extra help from you to get into the mood, like maybe some lengthy massage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

We sat there in front of the fire for about 10 minutes and she started to fall asleep. This is when I announced that I was going to get our S. I left and got our S back. We put him to bed and she crawled into bed with her glass of champagne set aside and the bottle left downstairs. She kept yawning and saying how tired she was. I went downstairs and drank more champagne. This is when I realized that she had completely forgot my anniversary card, which was sitting out in the open. She never signed it or anything.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That must really hurt. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

She came down stairs and asked me what I was doing and what was wrong. Not wanting to ruin the evening further, I said, " I wanted to drink more champagne and was not ready to go to sleep at 9:30." I said I was fine. She went back to bed.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To me this sounds like maybe she was still halfway hoping for that extra help getting in the mood.

Or it could be that she'd just given up on the romantic encounter possibilities, but didn't want to leave you to wallow in your disappointment alone and was willing to at least talk about it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I read a selfhelp book called the "Sex-Starved Marriage." When I got tired, I went up to bed at about 11:15. She was asleep. I got in bed and went to sleep. This morning I got up for work at 5:45 and left at 6:30. I went over to her in bed (as I do every morning) and gave her a kiss goodbye. She said "Have a nice day, I love you." I said, "I love you too."

This description gives you an idea of the pain I have from this R. I am so hurt that my W does not seemed to show appreciation (atleast not in the way I need it) for an nice effort put forth to be romantic.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whoa, whoa, whoa. You're asking her to show appreciation for a nice effort to do what YOU think is romantic knowing all along it shows disregard for her wishes and feelings. I think if you want more appreciation shown you need to meet her halfway by showing consideration for her in what you want appreciated. You're asking her to lie and act like she's all happy you use your anniversary to foist an uncomfortable situation on her. I don't wonder that she's not cooperating.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I cannot remain going through life as this scenario portrays. All this is doing is building up resentment, frustration and anger.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Most undoubtedly. And your choices are feeding that cycle. Time for you to change your choices and stop creating situations you say you don't want.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I am getting depressed from all of this. It is affecting my work and the rest of my life. I am trying everything I know to change things and improve the situation, but I feel I am failing miserably. Please give me some feed back as to others take on this scenario. I know my W needs to understand that I am not after just sex and that everything does not always have to lead to sex, but for crying out loud people. This scenario stinks!

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes it does! It stinks! Both of you were behaving in ways that stink! I don't wonder you fight!

Ok, now that we've got the exclamation points out of the way, what are you going to do about it? You say your wife needs to understand that you're not always after sex, but this whole involved evening plan was pretty coercive -- you know she doesn't like the surprise plans, but you foist them on her anyway. Then you put all kinds of romantic touches in the unwanted situation and expect her to react to the romantic touches, not the unwanted situation. Science has shown that lab animals of various species will become depressed, morose, and neurotic when exposed to this kind of double-message conditioning -- a much more emotionally complex and sensitive human certainly can't take it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Sad and unsure,

EL</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know you're sad and unsure. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> It's time to address your contributions to making yourself sad and unsure.

Extremely Lost

I think Mineownself nailed it so I won’t thump you too much more with that 2X4.

I must say that I, too, cringed when I read..

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I had only told my W to dress nice and have the evening open (I like surprising her even though she does not like not knowing what were doing). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yikes!

I’m just going to say that, like your wife, I am one of the people on this planet that does NOT like surprises. I really don’t. When I say that, I’m not being coy. I’m not being “funny.” I’m not being “cute” in the hopes that someone will see through my playful reluctance and do it anyway. I’m quite serious. And, those that disregard my very plainly stated preference, risk having their efforts rewarded with a lack of enthusiasm (at best) and downright hostility (at worst). My husband, on the other hand, LOVES surprises and, for the record, I have absolutely no problem planning surprises for him. Sometimes, he gets just gets so darn dizzy with the idea that he just HAS to play one on me. Fortunately for him, he’s learned there are certain rules about surprises before they are sprung on me… so, there have been a handful of times it has worked out quite nicely for BOTH of us. But, again, that’s after a lot of working things through and probably a lot of him feeling like you’re feeling right now.

I mention this because I have a strong bias in this area and you might want to take what I have to say with a slightly larger grain of salt than usual. Or, maybe not. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This really hurt me and I said that I did not, but what would have been wrong with that if I had? I said I would hope that someday we could have the M that you would think it was nice and special to have a nice dinner in a hotel like this and I then surprise you with a room. She said that it is not. This started the unraveling of the evening. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*just shaking my head*

It’s not that I don’t know what message you were trying to send, because I do. You were stating your hopes for your marital future. But, from an outside female point of view, I’m only going to tell you that your wife has more patience than I do. Shortly after that statement, I’d have been in a cab on the way home… or possibly renting a room of my own to which you would not have been invited. (Actually, that would depend on where I was on my emotional Richter scale. Anything below an 8 tends to involve a lengthy discourse… anything above an 8 means I’m too incoherently p*ssed to speak. The surprise itself would probably have taken me to about a 6.5. It is likely, however, that she might not be QUITE as surprise adverse as I am. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

In case Mineownself wasn’t clear enough, here’s what’s wrong with that idea: Your wife doesn’t like surprises. She likes to know what to expect. If sex is “expected” (anticipated, or even desired) she wants to know that and be consulted in advance and able to say “No.” in a graceful way. What’s wrong with it is that no one likes being put on the spot. What’s also wrong with it is that people tend to expect “the worst” when they don’t have information to the contrary (one more thing I don’t like about surprises, btw). She was probably convinced that you “expected” sex out of the evening (whether you did or not).

Here’s an observation for you, EL. You had the power to diffuse the entire situation right at that moment. When she said “Don’t tell me you got a room?!” You had the opportunity right then to Stop, and question what perception your wife might have had. Right then you could have taken her hand and said “I know you’re uncomfortable with sex right now, so let’s just relax and assume that nothing sexual is happening tonight.”

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Please give me some feed back as to others take on this scenario. I know my W needs to understand that I am not after just sex and that everything does not always have to lead to sex, but for crying out loud people. This scenario stinks!

Sad and unsure, </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*sighs* I’m really sorry for your emotional pain. EL, I see you working SO HARD on this marriage. The problem is WHAT YOU’RE WORKING ON (Or, alternately NOT WORKING ON ) not the amount of effort that you’re expending – which is tremendous. It’s no wonder you’re burning yourself out.

If you would like some appreciation then do things that SHE would appreciate. She’s not going to appreciate a surprise romantic evening. She’s not going to appreciate counseling. You seem to know a lot about what she doesn’t like… can you think of 3 things that SHE really likes?

I’m sorry your weekend and anniversary didn’t go very well, EL. I really am. For what it’s worth, it’s clear to me that your heart is in the right place. Your intentions aren't the problem.. it's where you choose to focus your actions that get you in trouble.

Today is a new day…how are you going to work on your marriage today?

Mys

Hello MyAlias, Mineownself & Myschae,

Thanks for your responses. I will do my best addressing your points.

MyAlias -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Isn't this the agreement Myschae was looking for you two to get to????
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. I think it is. I thought we could start to build on this. I will try. I just start loosing motivation from the constant blows to the head from running into the cement wall.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> EL, I can see that this SF issue isn't going away anytime soon. Getting resentful due to a lack of SF is not going to be productive. You can choose to get angry over the SF issue or realize that that issue will be addressed when the bigger problems are fixed. You also have to remember that your W being where she's at isn't just a choice she's made. She's where she's at based on years of bad behaviors on both your parts. When you start feeling resentful remember that it took a long time to get where your at and you had a hand in creating where your at. You've been working to fix those yourself but you haven't had any agreement from your W on what and how to work on the issues. She's agreed there are bigger problems so work to get agreement on how to fix them.

I'm sorry to this say this but you're going to need a lot of patience, you're going to have to give this some more time and plenty more effort and you're going to have to do without your needs being met for a while.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">More of the same - GIVE, GIVE, GIVE. A normal person cannot help, but feel resentment after an extended period of time. I read people's "problems" and see that they are complaining about only being intimate 2 - 3 times a week. I would kill for this!

I know I have been at this for only 5 months now, but, I feel some reasonable progression on her part should have shown up. I do see that she does not give much consideration for my feelings unless it is convienent for her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Set a path that she would like to follow for fixing what's wrong in the M. What would that path look like? What's first on the list?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When she acts inconsiderate it makes it very difficult for me to throw it all out and give her what she needs knowing full well I am still going to be left empty. My analogy for this is rubbing metal on metal without any lubrication. After a while things get burnt.


mineownself -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ouch. I kept flinching as I read your post. I have to say it looks like both of you are doing some of the same things. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can accept your statement.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I could see where this would be frustrating for you. Your wife had said previously that she didn't like going to MC and you've said you find it disheartening to go because you fight? Maybe it's not a good idea to try to have MC and a romantic evening on the same day. Your wife's statement to me sounds like a not very expansive attempt to explain that she can't go from that atmosphere to romantic intimacy in a single day. I don't blame her -- I can't either. I do sympathize with any frustration you feel that she didn't explain it more verbosely. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is fine, if there actually was some atmoshpere she could go from to SF. I have not been able to find that atmosphere for 5 years.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Whoa, she doesn't like surprise plans, so you decided to give her a surprise evening as an anniversary gift? Why? You know she doesn't like it. Is this a present for her or for you? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, she is a plannner and needs to have things laid out as to how she is going to do things etc.. I am the opposite. I jump in and like the spur of the moment and can deal with things changing better. Over the past five years I have found myself giving into my W's ways with no regard for me. Therefore, I did not feel it was unreasonable to surprise her with a nice place to eat. I told her she would need to dress nice, and we would be going out for dinner. I did not tell her the place. I do not see this as a big deal and felt she could deal with it. If I am supposed to always cater to what she wants, how is this a fullfilling M for me?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What would be wrong? You know she doesn't like surprise plans -- that's what's wrong. It's worse than the fireplace, because not only does she get a gift that she doesn't want but you do (surprise night in hotel), but she's expected to perform sexually IN that gift, in surroundings that are themselves a statement of your disregard for her wishes. I couldn't do it either.

Yes the way she stated her objection was ungracious and unhelpful, and I could see why you'd be frustrated. I think she was probably painfully frustrated with trying to go from MC hostility and fighting to romantic evening in one day, and since she knows you know she doesn't like surprises but you're staging them anyway, she probably felt at a loss how to state her confusion and frustration this time, since stating it doesn't seem to help.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is where I think you misread something from my post. I did not get a room in the hotel. The fact that we were sitting in a reasturant that was in a hotel caused her to jump to that conclusion and slam me. I never intended on getting a hotel room because I know there would be no point in putting myself through that. It was my anniversary as well and I wanted to have a good time. I did not want to fill the evening with rejections. I was actually planning on trying to spend some quality time together with out having sex. I just wanted to give her some wonderful surprises and show her that some surprises can be good and exciting. Not all surprises are bad.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> OUCH. "I would hope that someday we could have a marriage where you would think and act like it was nice and special for me to put you in a situation you hate and expect you to perform sexually." I don't know what your wife was feeling, but I'd have been wanting to burst into hysterical tears and/or throw up. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not a monster. What I was attempting to say was that I would hope we could end up with a marriage where we would be interested in meeting eachother's needs. How can we have a mutually fullfilling M if it is only her needs that are ever met? I think it is romantic and sexy to have a spur of the moment evening once in a while. Are you saying that I must give up this need?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I can really feel for you how painfully frustrating it must be to put in so much effort creating a nice evening with so many details and have it go unappreciated. I can't help but wonder though, why you would set yourself up for this by expecting someone to be romantically moved by something you know they don't like. You keep saying it's "for you wife", but how can it be for her when you know she won't like it? It sounds like it's for you, not for her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK Well it is for both of us. It is our anniversary, not hers. I tried to make it romantic and spontaneous. My W was spontaneous in the beginning of our R. I did not do this thinking she did not like it and I could make her like it. I did this trying to rekindle a spark as to how we used to be.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It could be she was trying to find away to tell you that she just couldn't make the transition to romantic encounter after the stresses of the day. It looks to me like she tried to tell you that in several ways over the course of the day, and her attempts weren't working and she was puzzled how to explain it in a helpful or at least non-hurtful way. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This may be, but she is not getting off the hook this easy. This is her MO for years. She needs to start moving towards a change as well. She knows this is no time for subtle hints anymore. She also knows that if she comes out and says I am not going to be intimate with you on our anniversary, after all the nice things you have done and effort you have put in, she would need to give a reason. She does not have a reason. I have asked multiple times and never have gotten a reason. I am not putting up with this anymore. I diserve better and I am finally standing up for me as well as our M.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It could also be that she was trying to figure out how to explain that with all the soreness she was feeling (maybe both physical and emotional) she needed extra help from you to get into the mood, like maybe some lengthy massage.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This would be nice, but I highly doubt it is what she was trying to do. She was trying to figure out how to wiggle out of a reasonable situation, unreasonably. Because I have not given her any reasons not to be intimate. Other than our MC session in the morning, which I do not think is fair to use as an excuse for the evening of our anniversary. Call me cold if you wish.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Or it could be that she'd just given up on the romantic encounter possibilities, but didn't want to leave you to wallow in your disappointment alone and was willing to at least talk about it </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No. She came down to validate her thoughts that I was downstairs dissapointed with the evening. I do not know if I actually gave her verification on this. I did not wish to be accused of something on top of all of this - like sulking or whatever.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Whoa, whoa, whoa. You're asking her to show appreciation for a nice effort to do what YOU think is romantic knowing all along it shows disregard for her wishes and feelings. I think if you want more appreciation shown you need to meet her halfway by showing consideration for her in what you want appreciated. You're asking her to lie and act like she's all happy you use your anniversary to foist an uncomfortable situation on her. I don't wonder that she's not cooperating. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a fair point and probably something she might feel. However, I feel differently, as I described above. I feel I am meeting her way more than half way on this entire M (atleast over the last 5 months).


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ok, now that we've got the exclamation points out of the way, what are you going to do about it? You say your wife needs to understand that you're not always after sex, but this whole involved evening plan was pretty coercive -- you know she doesn't like the surprise plans, but you foist them on her anyway. Then you put all kinds of romantic touches in the unwanted situation and expect her to react to the romantic touches, not the unwanted situation. Science has shown that lab animals of various species will become depressed, morose, and neurotic when exposed to this kind of double-message conditioning -- a much more emotionally complex and sensitive human certainly can't take it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This evening was not coercive. I tried to make it romantic even if there was no sex at the end. What about the message I am supposed to be getting from all of this. Since I wrote my last post, she has called me three times at work because she cannot find her keys. I tell her to try and look in the kitchen on the counter (where the card she got me still lays in the store wrapper). She still is not being even the smallest amount of considerate to even mention the card that she must know I have seen by now. She also calls me to tell me she has setup a delivery time for a hot tub we have purchased for Monday morning. Now this in itself is not a big deal, except for the fact that we had previously discussed this yesterday and agreed that we both wanted to be there when they delivered the hot tub because they were going to set it up and go over all the intructions on maintenance. Therefore, she was going to look into Sunday delivery. They will not deliver on Sunday so she gets it Monday AM. Why did she not consider the latest delivery on Monday so I would have a chance to make it? I asked her this and she got mad at me. This is not fair or considerate, yet I am supposed to give up all my needs and fullfill hers in the hopes that she might find it possible to fullfill my needs in the future (however long this will take). I am running out of steam and patients. This morning I have actually had thoughts of moving out, but am plagued with not wanting to leave my son. I do not know what to do anymore. I do not want to end my M, but what am I actually holding on to?

Myschae -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I’m just going to say that, like your wife, I am one of the people on this planet that does NOT like surprises. I really don’t. When I say that, I’m not being coy. I’m not being “funny.” I’m not being “cute” in the hopes that someone will see through my playful reluctance and do it anyway. I’m quite serious. And, those that disregard my very plainly stated preference, risk having their efforts rewarded with a lack of enthusiasm (at best) and downright hostility (at worst). My husband, on the other hand, LOVES surprises and, for the record, I have absolutely no problem planning surprises for him. Sometimes, he gets just gets so darn dizzy with the idea that he just HAS to play one on me. Fortunately for him, he’s learned there are certain rules about surprises before they are sprung on me… so, there have been a handful of times it has worked out quite nicely for BOTH of us. But, again, that’s after a lot of working things through and probably a lot of him feeling like you’re feeling right now.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is fine, but what if I am one of the people on this planet that likes surprises? Is it not fair for my W to try to meet my desire for this at some level anyway? Like I said earlier, we used to do some of this in the beginning. I do not think I was totally out of line. I guess I am just not seeing it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It’s not that I don’t know what message you were trying to send, because I do. You were stating your hopes for your marital future. But, from an outside female point of view, I’m only going to tell you that your wife has more patience than I do. Shortly after that statement, I’d have been in a cab on the way home… or possibly renting a room of my own to which you would not have been invited. (Actually, that would depend on where I was on my emotional Richter scale. Anything below an 8 tends to involve a lengthy discourse… anything above an 8 means I’m too incoherently p*ssed to speak. The surprise itself would probably have taken me to about a 6.5. It is likely, however, that she might not be QUITE as surprise adverse as I am.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am glad you know what I was trying to say - Thanks. I would hope that my W would be able to give me as much credit as someone reading one of my posts. I have asked her that when she feels I have said or done something that could be interpreted either bad or good, to give me the benefit of the doubt and understand that I only meant good. For crying out loud, I love her. I think all of these efforts I am putting forth should show I am also not selfish.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In case Mineownself wasn’t clear enough, here’s what’s wrong with that idea: Your wife doesn’t like surprises. She likes to know what to expect. If sex is “expected” (anticipated, or even desired) she wants to know that and be consulted in advance and able to say “No.” in a graceful way. What’s wrong with it is that no one likes being put on the spot. What’s also wrong with it is that people tend to expect “the worst” when they don’t have information to the contrary (one more thing I don’t like about surprises, btw). She was probably convinced that you “expected” sex out of the evening (whether you did or not).
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks, you know it is easier for me when you are direct. One issue here is that if I actually brought up that I would hope for SF she would say, whats new. She feels it is always my intention. LAst night it really was not, but she will never know this or believe me if I tried to tell her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Here’s an observation for you, EL. You had the power to diffuse the entire situation right at that moment. When she said “Don’t tell me you got a room?!” You had the opportunity right then to Stop, and question what perception your wife might have had. Right then you could have taken her hand and said “I know you’re uncomfortable with sex right now, so let’s just relax and assume that nothing sexual is happening tonight.”
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right here. I let my emotions get the better of me. This is because I took what she insinuated as her actually saying, "Oh God, How could you possibly think I would even consider having sex with you." Which really hurts, especially last night. Its been since October '03, come on. Is it completely unreasonable? Who is actually being unreasonable here? I amy not do some of the right things, or say some of the right things, but I recognize our M is in deep trouble and am trying my hardest to save it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> *sighs* I’m really sorry for your emotional pain. EL, I see you working SO HARD on this marriage. The problem is WHAT YOU’RE WORKING ON (Or, alternately NOT WORKING ON ) not the amount of effort that you’re expending – which is tremendous. It’s no wonder you’re burning yourself out.

If you would like some appreciation then do things that SHE would appreciate. She’s not going to appreciate a surprise romantic evening. She’s not going to appreciate counseling. You seem to know a lot about what she doesn’t like… can you think of 3 things that SHE really likes?

I’m sorry your weekend and anniversary didn’t go very well, EL. I really am. For what it’s worth, it’s clear to me that your heart is in the right place. Your intentions aren't the problem.. it's where you choose to focus your actions that get you in trouble.

Today is a new day…how are you going to work on your marriage today?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks Myschae for all your kind words. I do appreciate them. An underlying issue here is that my W seems (in my eyes) choosing to ignore any efforts I make (even if some choices are bad). I would have hoped she would atleast be encouraging in seeing how hard I am trying. Unfortunately, I am getting to the point of feeling like giving up. I am frustrated, beaten and bleeding over this. I need her to extend her hand and help to pull us out of this hole, but instead the harder I try the further I slip away.

Thanks for everyone's comments,

EL

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is fine, but what if I am one of the people on this planet that likes surprises? Is it not fair for my W to try to meet my desire for this at some level anyway? Like I said earlier, we used to do some of this in the beginning. I do not think I was totally out of line. I guess I am just not seeing it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You’re right. You’re not seeing it.

It’s fine if you’re one of the people on the planet that likes surprises, EL. But, in this case, the situation was opposite a working dynamic. For example, if YOU like surprises and your wife likes to know what to expect, are you willing to consider that a working dynamic might be that SHE plans and YOU get surprised? I know.. I know.. she doesn’t want to plan an evening for you.

I’ve all ready given you my opinion on marital “fairness” and I won’t belabor the point here again.

I will say this though. Be very careful that you don’t cross the line between a request and a demand. If you are going to demand that your needs are to be met then you are committing a LoveBuster. If you planned the evening because it was something that you knew you would enjoy, then that is fine. Expecting her to be as enthused about it when it contained a scenario you KNEW she doesn’t like is a recipe for disappointment. You don’t get to have it both ways. Either you’re doing something for HER in which case you cater to her needs, wants and desires. Or, you’re doing something for yourself in which case you appreciate HER willingness to accommodate your needs, wants, and desires. If you want to do something that is for BOTH of you, then building agreement is the way to go.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am glad you know what I was trying to say - Thanks. I would hope that my W would be able to give me as much credit as someone reading one of my posts. I have asked her that when she feels I have said or done something that could be interpreted either bad or good, to give me the benefit of the doubt and understand that I only meant good. For crying out loud, I love her. I think all of these efforts I am putting forth should show I am also not selfish. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You’re asking her to do something you’re not very good at, aren’t you? You took her question “Don’t tell me you rented a room?!” in a very negative way and allowed your emotions to run away with you. And, in this case, you went first with your negative reaction. It happens sometimes. We’re only human. If you can forgive yourself and move on.. then perhaps you can apply that same empathy towards her and forgive her for her missteps.

And, I beg to differ. You are selfish. Healthy people have self interest. If you weren’t selfish, you’d have absolutely no problem catering to her needs indefinitely with no concern about having yours met. Being selfish doesn’t make you a bad person. Being demanding, however, is detrimental to marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thanks, you know it is easier for me when you are direct. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*laughs* Oh good. You want direct? I can do direct…

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> One issue here is that if I actually brought up that I would hope for SF she would say, whats new. She feels it is always my intention. LAst night it really was not, but she will never know this or believe me if I tried to tell her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I’m not sure if you’ve had time to read through or respond to my novel on the other page where I blathered on at length about perception. My suggestion that you pause and consider what her perception might be and respond accordingly (is what you are doing reinforcing or not reinforcing that perception) might have assisted you in this situation. If you want to change that perception, then you have to ACTIVELY respond in ways that do NOT reinforce that message. Can you see where that did not happen for you last night?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Who is actually being unreasonable here? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You probably meant this as a rhetorical question but you also said you like direct so I’ll give you my opinion.

YOU BOTH ARE BEING UNREASONABLE.

And, since you’re the one that is here, I’m going to address the ways in which YOU are being unreasonable. Not because I don’t see where she contributes to this situation and I am convinced she does… but because it’s not going to do me, you, or her any good for me to do so. Fair enough?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thanks Myschae for all your kind words. I do appreciate them. An underlying issue here is that my W seems (in my eyes) choosing to ignore any efforts I make (even if some choices are bad). I would have hoped she would atleast be encouraging in seeing how hard I am trying. Unfortunately, I am getting to the point of feeling like giving up. I am frustrated, beaten and bleeding over this. I need her to extend her hand and help to pull us out of this hole, but instead the harder I try the further I slip away. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You’re welcome to them. I wish they could help more, I really do. Believe me, if I had the fabled “good marriage” wand, I’d use it often and without reservation.

I know you’re tired. You’re pouring yourself into this situation. If you have to give up, I understand and I can respect that – it’s certainly your choice to make. I think I’ve said this in every single post I’ve written to you, EL, and I’ll say it one more time. It’s not a lack of effort on your part – it’s where you’re putting that effort. You want your wife to see what you do in a “good light” even if it can be interpreted in a negative way. Here’s an exercise for you. Can you get yourself to a place in which you can consider the possibility that your wife isn’t ignoring your efforts, but rather your efforts aren’t happening in a way that is meaningful enough for her to respond to? It’s like she has a broken arm and you’re trying to remove her appendix. Abdominal surgery would make anyone cranky, you know what I mean? That you’re trying REALLY hard to remove her appendix and make sure it’s all gone isn’t going to improve her outlook on the situation.

I do hope things get better for you soon, EL. If for no other reason than I’m running out of analogies <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . …

Mys

EL,

I'm sorry I sure wasn't trying to imply that you give give give. I was trying to emphasis that you find something in the M you two can work on where there feels like some give and take happening.

As far as the Anniversary I think it would have been important to her to remove the most pressing issue and that would have been to be very clear upfront that you had no intentions or expectations of SF. And that the evening was going to have some surprises but that the intention was romance and not sex. It would have put her at ease.

What I'm suggesting is that you two work on your agreement. Have discussions about the issues that are the biggest problems. Maybe work the trust issue again. Work on it together. Come up with a plan where you can prove your trust in her and from that she would need to show you some indication of her ability to give to you. Maybe make it something simple. Example: Get agreeement from her that she will give you a hug or a quick peck on the cheek when she realizes you've changed a normal reaction in a way that she feels builds trust in her and the R.

EL, you've already been doing a Plan A on her but I don't think you've gotten buy in from your W yet on how to move forward rebuilding your R. You are working really hard and not getting anything in return for your efforts. Affirmation is a huge need for many individuals so maybe you use that as what you're looking for in return for your efforts. If you could tie affirmation in with something simple like something affectionate (the hug or kiss) than I'd bet you'd feel better about where you two were headed.

We're talking agreements here and that means POJA. Work TOGETHER to find something that makes you BOTH enthusiastic about doing it. Start small. Get the ball rolling in the right direction.

======================================

Don't get discouraged about the Anniversary. I think that you're actions were admirable and she should have been appreciative of the evening. But you know it and I know it, there was something there that made it uncomfortable for her. She hinted when she mentioned the room. She's going to continue hinting because she's still testing the waters on the TRUST issue.

Maybe use that night as a means to communicate something to her. Explain how you wanted the evening to go and apologize for surprising her or making her feel uncomfortable because the hint of SF might have been in the air. There's no need to be coy about it. Tell her what you were thinking without LBing, DJing or hinting about your perceptions of what she was thinking. That should help her build a level of trust in you and your statement that you're not all about SF.

One of your main reasons for driving so hard is your desire for SF and one of her reasons for resisting so hard is her lack of desire for SF. So you should be trying to focus your attention on your other needs. Those needs are ones she will be more willing to fill before that one.

She's got her guard up so take the opportunity to assist her in putting her guard down.

<small>[ July 28, 2004, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: MyAlias ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Extremely Lost:
Hello MyAlias, Mineownself & Myschae,

Thanks for your responses. I will do my best addressing your points.

MyAlias -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Isn't this the agreement Myschae was looking for you two to get to????
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. I think it is. I thought we could start to build on this. I will try. I just start loosing motivation from the constant blows to the head from running into the cement wall.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Um, great, so stop running into cement walls when you can choose to go a different direction. Your wife's dislike of surprise plans is one such. She has the right to not like suprise plans. Surely there are a lot of things you can do together that you both could enjoy, or at least things you could do together that neither of you actively dislikes. She dislikes this. If you want her to treat your feelings and preferences with respect, you need to show respect for hers. If you want to feel hurt over her giving you a gift that wasn't what you wanted and say that it's wrong, you need to stop doing the same thing to her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> EL, I can see that this SF issue isn't going away anytime soon. Getting resentful due to a lack of SF is not going to be productive. You can choose to get angry over the SF issue or realize that that issue will be addressed when the bigger problems are fixed. You also have to remember that your W being where she's at isn't just a choice she's made. She's where she's at based on years of bad behaviors on both your parts. When you start feeling resentful remember that it took a long time to get where your at and you had a hand in creating where your at. You've been working to fix those yourself but you haven't had any agreement from your W on what and how to work on the issues. She's agreed there are bigger problems so work to get agreement on how to fix them.

I'm sorry to this say this but you're going to need a lot of patience, you're going to have to give this some more time and plenty more effort and you're going to have to do without your needs being met for a while.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">More of the same - GIVE, GIVE, GIVE. A normal person cannot help, but feel resentment after an extended period of time. I read people's "problems" and see that they are complaining about only being intimate 2 - 3 times a week. I would kill for this!

I know I have been at this for only 5 months now, but, I feel some reasonable progression on her part should have shown up. I do see that she does not give much consideration for my feelings unless it is convienent for her.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wonder if she would say the same about you?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Set a path that she would like to follow for fixing what's wrong in the M. What would that path look like? What's first on the list?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When she acts inconsiderate it makes it very difficult for me to throw it all out and give her what she needs knowing full well I am still going to be left empty. My analogy for this is rubbing metal on metal without any lubrication. After a while things get burnt.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Um, yeah, but that has nothing to do with what MyAlias was saying. You're hurt and angry and feeling burnt right now. You might want to re-read some of the posts here when you've calmed down a bit.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

mineownself -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ouch. I kept flinching as I read your post. I have to say it looks like both of you are doing some of the same things. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can accept your statement.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I could see where this would be frustrating for you. Your wife had said previously that she didn't like going to MC and you've said you find it disheartening to go because you fight? Maybe it's not a good idea to try to have MC and a romantic evening on the same day. Your wife's statement to me sounds like a not very expansive attempt to explain that she can't go from that atmosphere to romantic intimacy in a single day. I don't blame her -- I can't either. I do sympathize with any frustration you feel that she didn't explain it more verbosely. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is fine, if there actually was some atmoshpere she could go from to SF. I have not been able to find that atmosphere for 5 years.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, that would drive anyone nutty. But do you really want to create associations between sex and hostility in her mind? That's how a healthy person winds up sexually averse. If she's reeling from an angry MC session, SF will only work against your long-term interests, not for them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Whoa, she doesn't like surprise plans, so you decided to give her a surprise evening as an anniversary gift? Why? You know she doesn't like it. Is this a present for her or for you? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, she is a plannner and needs to have things laid out as to how she is going to do things etc.. I am the opposite. I jump in and like the spur of the moment and can deal with things changing better. Over the past five years I have found myself giving into my W's ways with no regard for me.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So you decided to turn it around and do the same to her? That's not going to make a peaceful and happy marriage. Setting boundaries where you don't agree to recreational activities that don't respect what you're comfortable with is good. Deciding she should do what she's not comfortable with recreationally is not good -- it's controlling and inconsiderate.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Therefore, I did not feel it was unreasonable to surprise her with a nice place to eat. I told her she would need to dress nice, and we would be going out for dinner. I did not tell her the place. I do not see this as a big deal and felt she could deal with it.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well if it's not a big deal for you to disregard her wishes for the evening, it's not a big deal for her to disregard yours. You can't have it both ways. Which do you want? Both of you respect each other's preferences or neither?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

If I am supposed to always cater to what she wants, how is this a fullfilling M for me?

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Where did anyone say that? No one did. Choosing not to draw her into activities you know she doesn't like doesn't mean you have to do what you don't like -- find some common ground where you can both agree on how to spend the evening. One more time: if her boundaries about what is not fun don't count, yours don't either. You don't get it both ways.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What would be wrong? You know she doesn't like surprise plans -- that's what's wrong. It's worse than the fireplace, because not only does she get a gift that she doesn't want but you do (surprise night in hotel), but she's expected to perform sexually IN that gift, in surroundings that are themselves a statement of your disregard for her wishes. I couldn't do it either.

Yes the way she stated her objection was ungracious and unhelpful, and I could see why you'd be frustrated. I think she was probably painfully frustrated with trying to go from MC hostility and fighting to romantic evening in one day, and since she knows you know she doesn't like surprises but you're staging them anyway, she probably felt at a loss how to state her confusion and frustration this time, since stating it doesn't seem to help.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is where I think you misread something from my post. I did not get a room in the hotel.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yup, I knew that. I was responding to you saying you asked your wife what would be wrong if you did get a surprise room -- you seemed offended.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

The fact that we were sitting in a reasturant that was in a hotel caused her to jump to that conclusion and slam me. I never intended on getting a hotel room because I know there would be no point in putting myself through that. It was my anniversary as well and I wanted to have a good time. I did not want to fill the evening with rejections. I was actually planning on trying to spend some quality time together with out having sex. I just wanted to give her some wonderful surprises and show her that some surprises can be good and exciting. Not all surprises are bad.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not all surprises are bad FOR YOU. You don't get to decide whether your wife thinks a particular surprise is ok or not. You say you "just wanted to give her some wonderful surprises and show her that some surprises can be good and exciting" when you already know she doesn't want surprises. This is downright manipulative and controlling.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> OUCH. "I would hope that someday we could have a marriage where you would think and act like it was nice and special for me to put you in a situation you hate and expect you to perform sexually." I don't know what your wife was feeling, but I'd have been wanting to burst into hysterical tears and/or throw up. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not a monster. What I was attempting to say was that I would hope we could end up with a marriage where we would be interested in meeting eachother's needs. How can we have a mutually fullfilling M if it is only her needs that are ever met? I think it is romantic and sexy to have a spur of the moment evening once in a while. Are you saying that I must give up this need?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In the very short term, quite possibly. In the longer term you can almost certainly work it out if you approach it in a more respectful manner. You totally skipped the POJA step in this one -- you knew she didn't like surprise plans and decided well tough ****, you do. And now you're mad because she didn't put on a show of liking what she doesn't like that you chose without her agreement.

If you had asked for her agreement in advance in a manner that showed your respect for her preferences and understanding that she might wish to say no this time, you might have gotten it. "Honey, our anniversary is in a couple of weeks. You know I love planning surprises, but I know you don't like not knowing what is going to happen. Would it be ok if I planned a romantic dinner and surprised you with my choices, if we agreed ahead of time that it's just dinner and there's no romantic or physical expectations for the evening?"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I can really feel for you how painfully frustrating it must be to put in so much effort creating a nice evening with so many details and have it go unappreciated. I can't help but wonder though, why you would set yourself up for this by expecting someone to be romantically moved by something you know they don't like. You keep saying it's "for you wife", but how can it be for her when you know she won't like it? It sounds like it's for you, not for her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK Well it is for both of us. It is our anniversary, not hers. I tried to make it romantic and spontaneous. My W was spontaneous in the beginning of our R. I did not do this thinking she did not like it and I could make her like it. I did this trying to rekindle a spark as to how we used to be.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well she could say the fireplace was for both of you. But she got it claiming it was "for you" knowing you didn't agree with that choice. You kept saying the surprise plans were "for her" knowing she didn't agree with that choice. If she now says the fireplace is for both of you, does that make you feel better about it? Or do you think it can't possibly be for both of you since it was an end run around your wishes? It seems to me that neither the fireplace nor the surprise plans were anything but utterly selfish since they both involved doing and end run around the other person's stated wishes.

I notice that here you said you weren't trying to do this to educate her, but earlier in your post you said that was exactly what you were trying to do -- educate her that she "should" like surprises.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It could be she was trying to find away to tell you that she just couldn't make the transition to romantic encounter after the stresses of the day. It looks to me like she tried to tell you that in several ways over the course of the day, and her attempts weren't working and she was puzzled how to explain it in a helpful or at least non-hurtful way. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This may be, but she is not getting off the hook this easy. This is her MO for years. She needs to start moving towards a change as well. She knows this is no time for subtle hints anymore. She also knows that if she comes out and says I am not going to be intimate with you on our anniversary, after all the nice things you have done and effort you have put in, she would need to give a reason.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, well it's tough to verbalize your reasons when confronted with passive-agressive behavior, like someone planning a romantic evening in circumstances they know you hate. I've had a bit more practise, so I would have said, "Honey, I love you and I'd like to plan another anniversary celebration for a day when we're not wiped from MC, and I'd like that second celebration to only include activities we both can agree on. I want to feel close to you and I think that would help. I can't feel close to you right now because I'm very hurt by your choice to spend our anniversary evening in a way you know I strongly dislike." </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

She does not have a reason. I have asked multiple times and never have gotten a reason. I am not putting up with this anymore. I diserve better and I am finally standing up for me as well as our M.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Great! Stand up and assert your boundaries -- that's definitely great. But the surpise plans was not an assertion of your boundaries -- it was stomping all over her boundaries.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It could also be that she was trying to figure out how to explain that with all the soreness she was feeling (maybe both physical and emotional) she needed extra help from you to get into the mood, like maybe some lengthy massage.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This would be nice, but I highly doubt it is what she was trying to do.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, that was just a guess. If you don't think that was it you're probably right.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

She was trying to figure out how to wiggle out of a reasonable situation, unreasonably. Because I have not given her any reasons not to be intimate.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whoa, yes you did. BIG TIME. Yeah I don't doubt she was trying to find a way to wiggle out of the situation -- that how most people feel when faced with passive-agressive tactics -- squirmy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Other than our MC session in the morning, which I do not think is fair to use as an excuse for the evening of our anniversary. Call me cold if you wish.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually I would have gone with "so hot under the collar he keeps shooting himself in the foot". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Not sure if that's helpful though.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Or it could be that she'd just given up on the romantic encounter possibilities, but didn't want to leave you to wallow in your disappointment alone and was willing to at least talk about it </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No. She came down to validate her thoughts that I was downstairs dissapointed with the evening. I do not know if I actually gave her verification on this. I did not wish to be accused of something on top of all of this - like sulking or whatever.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Um, is that actually what she said? "I came downstairs to confirm my suspicion that you're sulking?" If she didn't say something that explicit about her intent, sounds like you committed a major DJ assuming that was her intent.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Whoa, whoa, whoa. You're asking her to show appreciation for a nice effort to do what YOU think is romantic knowing all along it shows disregard for her wishes and feelings. I think if you want more appreciation shown you need to meet her halfway by showing consideration for her in what you want appreciated. You're asking her to lie and act like she's all happy you use your anniversary to foist an uncomfortable situation on her. I don't wonder that she's not cooperating. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a fair point and probably something she might feel. However, I feel differently, as I described above. I feel I am meeting her way more than half way on this entire M (atleast over the last 5 months).

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can't even figure out what you're saying here. It sounds like a reiteration that you want her to want what you want. Too bad. Nobody gets to say what someone else wants. You can choose to respectully request that she accomodate your wants, but deciding she should want what you want is controlling and disrespectful. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ok, now that we've got the exclamation points out of the way, what are you going to do about it? You say your wife needs to understand that you're not always after sex, but this whole involved evening plan was pretty coercive -- you know she doesn't like the surprise plans, but you foist them on her anyway. Then you put all kinds of romantic touches in the unwanted situation and expect her to react to the romantic touches, not the unwanted situation. Science has shown that lab animals of various species will become depressed, morose, and neurotic when exposed to this kind of double-message conditioning -- a much more emotionally complex and sensitive human certainly can't take it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This evening was not coercive.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You chose activities you knew she didn't like, both of you knew you would be upset if she didn't play along and act like she liked it anyway, then you punished her by displaying your disapproval in various ways when she didn't perform to your satisfaction. That is the very definition of coercion.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I tried to make it romantic even if there was no sex at the end.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Uh, so how was the evening supposed to end? You wanted to make out on the floor. How was she supposed to know that you weren't expecting sex? How did you provide her with a way to say no? In this post you have repeatedly said that you decided there was no reasonable way to say no in that situation -- again you're contradicting yourself. If you weren't operating on the expectation that she deliver sex, than there was a reasonable way for her to say no. If there is no reasonable way for her to say no in your view, than you most certainly were expecting to deliver up sex.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

What about the message I am supposed to be getting from all of this. Since I wrote my last post, she has called me three times at work because she cannot find her keys. I tell her to try and look in the kitchen on the counter (where the card she got me still lays in the store wrapper). She still is not being even the smallest amount of considerate to even mention the card that she must know I have seen by now.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I know that hurts. I'm sorry it hurts. But that doesn't make your own hurtful behavior ok.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

She also calls me to tell me she has setup a delivery time for a hot tub we have purchased for Monday morning. Now this in itself is not a big deal, except for the fact that we had previously discussed this yesterday and agreed that we both wanted to be there when they delivered the hot tub because they were going to set it up and go over all the intructions on maintenance. Therefore, she was going to look into Sunday delivery. They will not deliver on Sunday so she gets it Monday AM. Why did she not consider the latest delivery on Monday so I would have a chance to make it? I asked her this and she got mad at me. This is not fair or considerate, yet I am supposed to give up all my needs and fullfill hers in the hopes that she might find it possible to fullfill my needs in the future (however long this will take).

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow, no one has ever suggested that. Maybe you can get some value from this board when you have calmed down a bit and aren't talking in poetic exaggeration.

Uffda,

EL you are certainly getting your fair share of the MB 2x4. I think it's important for you to remember that we as posters can only point out ways to help you improve yourself and your perspective so that you can repair your M. Your W isn't here but if she were she would surely get a heavy dose of 2x4s and maybe a 4x4 to boot. But she's not so we have to look entirely at what your doing and listen to your explanation of your W's reactions to your actions, etc.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MyAlias -

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Isn't this the agreement Myschae was looking for you two to get to????

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes. I think it is. I thought we could start to build on this. I will try. I just start loosing motivation from the constant blows to the head from running into the cement wall.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The constant blows to the head remind me of the description of insanity. If you are running into the cement wall why do you keep doing it. I'd like to see you try to work Myschae's idea. Get agreement. Then when your W does something that causes you to receive a blow to the head you have something to work off of. "I thought we had an agreement? If so, why did I get this lump on my forehead?"

I love analogies, as I see Myschae does too.

Analogy:

Your W has put up a wall... a cement wall if you will. If you can get agreement from your W that there is a wall (and it sounds like you have) then you two can establish an agreeable plan for pecking away at that wall. You will work from your side and she will work from her side. After you put your plan into motion and you have some success 'pecking away at the wall' eventually you two will crack through a portion of that wall. You will then be able to feel a small part of each other and you will feel the connection and that connection will feel good, loving and positive.

That one breakthrough could be a catalyst to another issue and slowly over time the process will continue until the wall has been completely obliterated.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MyAlias:
<strong> Uffda,

EL you are certainly getting your fair share of the MB 2x4. I think it's important for you to remember that we as posters can only point out ways to help you improve yourself and your perspective so that you can repair your M. Your W isn't here but if she were she would surely get a heavy dose of 2x4s and maybe a 4x4 to boot. But she's not so we have to look entirely at what your doing and listen to your explanation of your W's reactions to your actions, etc.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, lemme at her and I'll take few virtual swings. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

OK! OK! I can see your points and I understand that expecting my W to be happy with something that she does not like is not fair. I really do not wish to be disrespectful, controlling, coercive, etc.etc.etc..... You see, earlier in our R my W was not like this and did not mind surprises. She used to take pleasure in guessing the surprise that I had for her. I just wanted some of the magic back for one night. Our anniversary night. Yes, I am a bit emotional over the whole thing and how it ended up. But I am sorry. I just wanted a break and magical night. I truly did not go into last night expecting sex. But also, if I have to start every night with my W prequalifying the evening with there will not be any sexual expectations, I feel it shuts the door on me and my desires. I am not trying to be rude or selfish, I just wish for the equal opportunity to potentially be happy with maybe having my needs be met as well.

I currently feel that I am taken for granted. I will go home tonight and I will say that I am sorry for planning a surprise dinner because I know that she likes to plan. I will try to explain that I did not mean to be disrespectful and truly love her. I will also try and ask for her forgiveness from my wishing she liked things the same way I do.

I guess, one way to look at this is from a completely defeatest attitude. Yes, everyone seems to be saying that I am shooting myself in the foot including the MC. Since I am too stupid to figure out how to stop shooting myself in the foot, the best thing I can do is just not load the gun. I will give up and she will hold all the cards. I have been trying to understand her and at the same time have found it difficult to hold back my emotions (which cause me to blow another toe off).

I appreciate everyone trying to help and give perspectives. I have read all of your perspectives (more than once). I really have been trying to impliment new ideas that I get from you guys (even if my post do not show it). I just would like a small sign from my W that she is willing to change our M for the better for both of us. I have not been able to realize this sign over these five months and am now wondering if it will ever come.

I do not think my W is evil or bad or against me in her heart. I do realize she is very defensive and protective with me more than anyone else. This I am smart enough to attribute to my own actions and am brave enough to accept that I may never have the ability to create the situation where she will decide that she wants to change.

MyAlias, Myschae and Mineownself Thanks for taking time to offer 2x4 crushing blows and defend my W's position when she is not here to defend herself. I truly do appreciate this. When I first started posting on this MB site, I was kind of concerned because a lot of people would just bash my W and this did not help either of us because it would cause me to start thinking about our M incorrectly. I thank you for your unbiased opinions.

Today I have just been kind of depressed over the whole thing and when my W has called me (7 times some to complain about how S is behaving), I have just been kind of mellow and monotoned on the phone. I have no idea what to do when I get home (which could be late tonight) other than what I said when I began this post. However, I do feel physically drained and out of energy to put this discussion forward. I know my W will most likely say that I am moping and this makes her feel less attracted to me. But I feel like anything I do makes her feel this way and it is unfortunate, because I actually am still attracted to her. When I gather the energy for another large effort towards improvement, I miss some simple thing and it unravels everything. I feel that I am walking on egg shells and need to just stop. Stop all expectations because I am too tired to put this kind of pressure on myself anymore. My W feels that when I am working, this is enjoyable leasure time for me (she has said this). Three weekends ago, I poured our patio (fri - sun) 3 12 hour days. The following weekend I had to work (sat-sun) 2 15 hour days. This last weekend I tiled the patio (Fri - Mon) 4 15 hour days. This next weekend I have to finish tiling the patio which will be 2 15 hour days. All the time in between working through the week 12 - 14 hour days. We are partners in a business that demands my time. My W always says that she understand this and does not have a problem with my having to work these hours. Still I found the time to put together what I mistakingly thought was a nice anniversary night and screwed it up. I know my W is tired and aches because she helped tile the patio, but I am truly tired, and worn down. I cannot go on like this without her recognizing my contributions because of some small thing I make a mistake on. I need a break and I need her to find a way to reach down and give me this break.

Faith is tremendous and can get me through a lot, but I do not know if it will get me through this.

Thanks,

EL

Hey, let's talk some about your boundaries for taking care of you.

It sounds like you are working a LOT. And between that and trying to deal with a tense home situation and trying to achieve some serious self-change, you are worn out.

And you know what? You'd not be human if you weren't just plain tired. That's a lot of load. I'm proud of you that you're still trying when you're so tired. I'm worried that because you're so tired, you're making choices without considering, and like Mys says, you wind up putting energy in directions that don't pay off in your marriage where if you refocused the energy you devote to your marriage, you'd get results that are happier for you.

Is there a way that maybe some of this strain can be relieved? I know other posters here are better at brainstorming how to sort this kind of situation, so I hope they chime in. It really sounds to me like you need to make yourself some more room somehow. Can you tell us how your time is spent over the course of a typical week?

Can you tell us also how you spent the last 3 or 4 weekends?

Hey mineownself,

I basically explained my last three weekends, but here is a summary (I'll go 5 weekends ago):

5 weekends ago: I went to Wisconsin for a wedding my W was in (her step sisters). Our S was in this as well. This weekend was important because my W says she does not like going to wedding with me because of the past and my trust issues making her feel uncomfortable when she is talking with old friends. Therefore, this weekend was pretty stressfull for me and for her. She also had family issues with her step sister that really bother her. So I spend the entire weekend trying to not act in a mistrustful way. Ignoring situations that would normally drive me crazy, like her talking with old (guy) friends and not including me etc.. I tried so hard and three weeks later she comes out and accuses me of having given her a look when she was dancing in the wedding party dance. I was floored because I tried so hard. Anyway, driving back home (5 hours) I noticed she was not unstressed after this big weekend had past. I asked her what she was stressed about. She said she was stressed because we had not decided what to do with our backyard yet (patio or deck). Therefore I made an agreement with her that if she gathered information on what she liked in the back yard, we would agree to make a final decision the next weekend (4th of July weekend).

4 weekends ago: This was fourth of July weekend and my W wished to finish a final bed in our back yard. This constituted my digging up grass in hard clay for two full days (10 hours a day). We also picked what we would do in our back yard (patio with tile).

3 weeks ago: My W had organized the patio pouring for this weekend. However, on Friday when the crew showed up they tried to stiff her on the price. She calls me at work and says there is a problem. She then hand the phone over to the head guy (who I have never met or talked with before). I defended my W's position and the guy insisted on adding another $1000 to the cost of the patio. I worked a deal with him that lowered the cost if I wheel barrowed 21 tons of pea gravel and 12 yards of cement for him. I left work on Friday and did this Friday, Saturday. On Sunday I went with my W to pick out the tile and purchase it.

Two weekends ago: I had to work saturday and Sunday 14 - 15 hour days.

Last weekend: I tiled the patio Friday through Monday getting 70% done. These were 15 hour days.

This weekend: I will try to finish the tiling job as the last 30% will take every bit of two days. These will most likely be two 15 hour days.

In between this I am working twelve to 15 hours a day at work. I am running a Company and it is a tireless and thankless job, but it pays for a patio and tile. My W often says that I have work and that is what I have to keep my sanity. Are you kidding, I have to take care of over 20 employees (which in itself is a 10 hour a day job) while run and grow a business.

As you can tell, it is after 9:00PM on Wednesday and I am still at work. I still have managed to find the time to try and do research into improving our M through books, websites etc.. I also am making time for MC sessions once a week. I even tried to create a fantastic anniversary. I also try to fit in as much time for my S and W when I can.


Over a typical week I would work Monday through Friday (providing I did not have to work the weekend). My work hours would be 7:00 - 6:00 if I am lucky and did not have to stay later for a customer. I would get home after work and try to do something with my S and W. Usually my W would be doing some kind of landscaping thing. She would have somethings she needed me to do when I got home. Then I would try to figure out dinner. Sometimes my W will cook (this is not the norm because she says she does not know when I will be home). Although I do try to communicate when I will be home to my W often (after reading HN/HN). I would then try to do something with our S to give W a break from him. He goes to daycare/preschool Tuesdays and Thursdays to give W a break and get him more socialization. We would then go upstairs to bed where my W must watch TV to fall asleep. I will typically read our S a story and put him to bed. I would og to bed and my W would lay on her side of the king size bed and I would lay on my side. I would roll over and kiss her good night. She would roll over with her back to me and go to sleep. She says she needs to lay facing out. I truly miss falling asleep holding someone and waking up still holding this person. My W is not a cuddler type. I think waking up still holding someone you love is one of the best things ever.

Is this enough info?

EL

Opinions are like elbows, we all have a couple of them on every issue.
I see absolutley nothing wrong with the statement to the effect 'I did not rent a room but what if i did, I see nothing wrong with that and wished we had a marriage where we could do that'.

If my wife were to go off on the richter scale on that statement I would just think to myself 'this is why I f*cking hate you so much b*tch', and yeah, that would unravel the night.

I am glad I reread that post before I did post because it did not say 'I would go off on the richter scale - just go on a 'lengthy discourse' (to which I would probably just listen for the first 7 or 8 seconds and then start thinking about If I can repair my brakes myself.) Also, I can now see that perhaps the 'but what if I did' could be the bone of contention: the statement "I did not rent a room but wish we had a marriage where we could do that" is perfectly fine by me.

I can't picture (for lack of a better term) any man ever saying “I know you’re uncomfortable with sex right now, so let’s just relax and assume that nothing sexual is happening tonight.”


I respect the other posters and their opinions, I really really do. I just see it differently.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Trg1:
<strong>

I can't picture (for lack of a better term) any man ever saying “I know you’re uncomfortable with sex right now, so let’s just relax and assume that nothing sexual is happening tonight.”
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Really? How odd. Why not?

Just the terminology .... Like I can't picture a guy saying "My tummy is upset" or .... "I bought some cute shoes"

I imagine a guy might say something like "uh...we don't have to do anything tonight"

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Trg1:


I can't picture (for lack of a better term) any man ever saying “I know you’re uncomfortable with sex right now, so let’s just relax and assume that nothing sexual is happening tonight.”

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I thought your response to this statement was odd too. I know that I, myself, have said this several times to my W to put her at ease. Strangely enough I've said it to her on our Anniversary.

Seeing I know she's uncomfortable with SF unless she's in the mood, I've taken the approach that I'd rather we both relax and not get caught up in worrying and wondering what the other is thinking during that event. That allows us to be more open regarding other needs we have. We can spend the night necking, hugging, caressing, etc and there's no stress involved.

Sure I've given up on a need but as long as I get other needs met (Affection, Intimacy w/o sex) then I'm more than happy to eliminate SF. For me I feel I'm going to go that extra mile to make her want me. And by building strength in our other needs we become closer and feel safer and feel more inclined to do other things for each other. My W has agreed to increase SF frequency and I believe much of that agreement came about because we have been working on our other needs and not SF. She loves me enough that she's willing to provide SF to me, albeit a service. I now realize she loves me enough and I love her enough that I'm willing to accept what she's willing to provide.

Trg1

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Opinions are like elbows, we all have a couple of them on every issue. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Isn’t that the truth?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If my wife were to go off on the richter scale on that statement I would just think to myself 'this is why I f*cking hate you so much b*tch', and yeah, that would unravel the night. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’m going remove Extremely Lost and his wife from this situation and just answer you personally as to why those words in that context would be likely to trip my b*tch meter.

The way the day was described, there was unpleasantness in the morning (his wife hates marriage counseling) which I can relate to by imagining an unresolved argument. So, there was all ready tension between them. Then, for that evening a surprise event was planned. I absolutely hate surprises and I’m not shy about communicating that dislike. Going out on a surprise date night after a morning of tension would ratchet up the tension meter. Along around the time the statement was made (with its implied sexual activity) my blood pressure would all ready be pretty elevated. There would be nothing enjoyable to me about the evening because I’d be sitting there the whole time feeling irritated that my wishes had been ignored and I’d probably still be stewing about the morning. Because of the obvious work and the occasion (an Anniversary) I’d be trying my best to be on good behavior and ‘play nice’ which is stressful for me, as well. I would probably come across as merely unenthusiastic rather than downright hostile which is how I would be feeling. It would be a very different context if I were LIKED surprises and was enjoying myself.

Overall, the context of the situation is not conducive (in my eyes) to romance or an evening leading to mutually enjoyable sex. I certainly don’t feel like having sex when I’m annoyed or stressed with my partner. So, for me, the tension of the evening would more or less rule out any possibility of sex. I’m not sure this is a gender thing. I don’t think my husband is generally in the mood to have sex with me when we’re unhappy with each other, either. I honestly don’t know what his reaction would be if, knowing he were annoyed with me, I initiated sex. Hrm. Maybe he’d think I was trying to ‘make up’ with him or maybe he’d be just as irritated by it as I would be.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am glad I reread that post before I did post because it did not say 'I would go off on the richter scale - just go on a 'lengthy discourse' (to which I would probably just listen for the first 7 or 8 seconds and then start thinking about If I can repair my brakes myself.) Also, I can now see that perhaps the 'but what if I did' could be the bone of contention: the statement "I did not rent a room but wish we had a marriage where we could do that" is perfectly fine by me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I thought about this and you’re right. The “but what if I did” is the part of the sentence that communicates the challenge (for lack of a better word) in that sentence. I’m just not sure there is a graceful way to answer that question as stated assuming the respondent would be unhappy with the situation.

Also, the “I see nothing wrong with that” is a problem. I realize that he was probably referring to there being nothing wrong with renting a room in a hotel to spend the night with his wife and, he’s right, there isn’t anything wrong with that. But, renting that room after a tension filled day and a stressful evening seems like a waste. Renting a room after a fun filled mutually enjoyed event, however, sounds like a great idea.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I can't picture (for lack of a better term) any man ever saying “I know you’re uncomfortable with sex right now, so let’s just relax and assume that nothing sexual is happening tonight.” </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Heh. You’re probably right. I’m sure there has to be a male equivalent of the sentiment out there somewhere, though.

Dragging EL back into the picture, he said that he was not planning to have sex with his wife that evening – instead, it was his intent to spend a romantic evening with his wife (without sex) to dispel the notion that “he only wants one thing.” Expectations play a big part in our interactions with each other. His wife was expecting him to want sex. He was expecting his wife to expect him to want sex. At some point, communicating clearly that he did NOT, in fact, want sex that evening would have diffused some tension between them. It doesn’t matter whether he dresses it up in pretty words or just says “I’m not expecting sex tonight” as long as his intent is clear.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I respect the other posters and their opinions, I really really do. I just see it differently. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I respect you and your opinion, as well. I don’t imagine or intend that any of my explanations will have changed your perspective on this situation at all. I see different perspectives on this situation, also.

From EL’s perspective, I see a man who is trying very, very hard to somehow find a way to make his wife happy and convince her to work on their marriage. I see him putting a LOT of thought into making this evening as special and romantic (using a traditional definition of romance) for his wife and being very naturally crushed by her response. I see him as being worn down by constant sexual rejection and that the message of the statement “'I did not rent a room but what if i did, I see nothing wrong with that and wished we had a marriage where we could do that. as simply stating that he wishes they had a relationship in which “popping up to a hotel room after a romantic dinner for some passionate sex” was a possibility. There is nothing wrong with him wanting a marriage that includes frequent, passionate sex. There is nothing wrong or unnatural about him feeling crushed by his wife’s lack of appreciation for his hard work. And, there is nothing unreasonable or unrealistic about hoping that she’ll join him as a partner and work on their marriage.

From his wife’s perspective, I see a woman who (for whatever reason) is not willing to have sex with her husband but who understands that he desires sex with her. From his description, I see her has having a day that escalated her stress level and I can relate to that as NOT working towards sexual relations even if she were inclined to do that, in general. I see her operating from a place of stressed anticipation that he would make a sexual advance and she would have to reject him and deal with his disappointment or have sexual relations with him when she’s not ready or comfortable. There is nothing wrong with her not liking surprises or marital counseling. It’s not unreasonable or unnatural for her not to be in the mood for sexual relations if she’s stressed or unhappy with her husband or for her to say “no” to sex if she’s not comfortable or willing. In the absence of information to the contrary, it wasn’t an entirely unreasonable conclusion to link a romantic evening with a sexual situation.

I see two people who aren’t wrong or bad for feeling how they feel. I see a gulf between them because, I think, their perspectives and how they experienced the situation are very different. Since EL is here, the focus of the postings have been to describe what MIGHT be (since we can’t possibly know for sure) her state of mind and how she experiences things. It was never my intent to make him feel worse or bad or anything else. I don’t tend to label actions as objectively “right” or “wrong”. Instead, I prefer “effective” or “ineffective” or possibly “helpful/not helpful”.

I see myself rambling on endlessly….. so, are you going to do that brake job, or what? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Mys