</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She also said that she would always feel that what she would do was never good enough or not enough. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think this is important. Of course I think it is important because it is the one area of my R I realized I was screwing up on. I would hear my W say those words and it never registered that she gave up or didn't try because she felt it wasn't good enough or wasn't enough. I gave her those impressions and I need to be accountable for them and responsible enough to recognize when I'm making her feel that way. Accepting the service sex she was willing to provide was one way I've changed part of that 'not good enough' impression.

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I mentioned that I also understood how she has learned not to even go there because she felt I would expect it to lead to SF and then be dissapointed. She agreed and said that she has learned this over a number of years and needs to be given time to unlearn this. She also said that she would always feel that what she would do was never good enough or not enough. Which is fair because I would like all of these "other" things, but I would not accept these things as a complete substitute for SF. I understand how these other things will help make her feel closer to me and hopefully lead to her desire increasing, but I was here before (years ago) and it never really seemed to. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Part of the issue might stem from how you perceive the concept of desire. All of us tend to perceive things through lenses colored by our own thoughts, attitudes and feelings. One of the notions that is constantly bandied around this board is the concept of “mercy sex.” Every time I see that phrase used (even by me), I cringe internally.

Each person lives through his or her own experience. Those experiences shape us and can impact how we experience situations. It’s not hard to believe that people experience sex differently. They also experience sexual desire and sexual fulfillment in different ways. One common mismatch is when people narrow their definition of sexual desire, response, or fulfillment to only include their own narrow definition.

“Mercy sex” seems to be defined (rather loosely) as when a low-drive spouse offers sex to the high drive spouse without increasing his or her drive to match. It conjures up these horrific images of the low-drive spouse simply “consenting” and “lying there, doing nothing – waiting for it to get over with.” And, I’m sure that is what happens in some cases. Unfortunately, those images tend to stick with the high-drive spouse to the point that s/he will often try to “increase” her/his spouse’s actual preference for sex – ostensibly to avoid “mercy sex.”

But, there are various ways to achieve sexual fulfillment. Desire comes in all shapes and sizes. Sometimes, desire can be pure, animal lust. Other times, it can be romantic, affectionate, wanting-to-be-close. Some people define sexual fulfillment as achieving orgasm. Others define it as achieving mutual orgasm with a partner. Others might define it as being able to please their partner by helping his or her partner achieve orgasm without concern about whether or not s/he achieves one for her/himself. Sometimes the definition of SF will change with the MOOD of the individual and swing from animal lust to a deep caring act.

The problem comes when one partner is unsatisfied with how their partner defines or experiences sexual fulfillment. In other words, if you can only be satisfied if your partner is in pure, animal lust mode during sex, you have to be willing to wait for that to happen. It might not happen often enough for you. Conversely, if you’re willing to accept that your partner may well define SF very, very differently than you and can get different positive things out of the experience, then it becomes easier and less stressful for both to negotiate accommodations.

I’m just throwing that out there as food for thought. I don’t imagine that you’re anywhere near that point yet. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have been down mostly because of this anniversary thing and the last two MC visits. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it’s important that you plan ahead for tomorrow’s MC appointment. You know it gets on your wife’s nerves that you go in there and argue. Why not plan to build some agreement, instead?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> These are reffered to as "weasel words" in contract lingo. It may work. It may not. However, I am already completely emotionally vested in this due to my S and the years with my W. Plus I still know in my heart that she is a reasonable individual and would not consiously be unfair to me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hah! Weasel words, my @$$. It’s simply the truth. You’ve known your wife a lot longer than I have and YOU don’t know how she’s going to react. What makes you think I’ll be able to tell you? Heh. You’re funny. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yeah. Moving is a pain. I wish you luck with that. I hope you are able to look us up once in a while. I have started to look forward to your responses. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It really is a pain. I take comfort in knowing that someday I’ll look back at all this and be glad I didn’t give in and commit a felony. Probably. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We both went through the ringer. You make a good point here. I guess it would be tough to pick up and start again. I know it is not easy on her side either. I wish I could make it easy for her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, you might not be able to make it “easy” exactly, but you can make it easier. One way to do that is to quit bouncing in and out. Learn to manage your frustration a little better and practice patience. There is going to be forward progress and there are going to be setbacks. Try not to let individual incidents shake your composure so much.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She definitely refused to follow her advice. She also wrote her off immediately in her mind. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Our current MC says that she understands and would never have suggested those things to her. She says we need to learn to communicate and make eachother feel safe, comfortable and trusted before we can move forward on the SF subject. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, she has you argue with each other while you’re in her office? Maybe I just have an unclear picture of what goes on.

Communication is important – what that involves is learning to get your messages across in a way that your spouse can understand and use. What is she doing to help you with that?

Safety, comfort, and trust have a lot to do with predictability. One of the concerns I have with your behavior is your volatility. Your wife needs to be able to positively predict what you’re going to do and how you’re going to react in order to feel safe with you. That means that the actions that she predicts have to be actions that are conducive to her being able to open up to you. For example, if she wrecks the car, she needs to be able to predict that you’ll first be concerned with her safety, and next be concerned with how you can help her logistically. If she’s concerned that you’re going to yell, scream, stomp, turn purple with rage, call her names, or threaten her with divorce she’s not going to feel safe telling you that information.

The same thing applies to SF, when you get there. She needs to be able to predict your reaction if she’s not in the mood for sex and it can’t be pouting, incessant questioning, begging, dragging her into a long discussion, etc. She needs to be able to predict your reaction if she’s not in the “mood” but is willing to accommodate you and it shouldn’t be sulking, trying everything you can to change her mind with technique, or frustration. It CAN be a statement that you’re disappointed and hopeful for a rain check on another evening. It can be that you appreciate the offer but you’re willing to wait a few days and see if the mood strikes her.

And, just as an aside, predictability would increase your trust and safety level, as well. If you were able to accurately predict that your wife would respond positively to a certain behavior, wouldn’t you find it much easier to engage in that behavior even if it involved “going out of your way?”

What is your counselor doing to help you with increasing your predictability?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This sucks! But it is the truth. I guess I could try another 6 months to a year. But I have to be honest with myself and as baba would say, "not allow myself to be the best doormat in town!" I must be sensible and be able to realize if nothing is going to ever change. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, how will you know that nothing will change? Unless your wife flat out tells you that she is never going to change no matter what you do during a calm, credible conversation (not during an emotional outburst), there really is no way to tell, is there?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> An interesting point you made was about not knowing our time line of when things happened. I thought I would provide you with a short version. Who knows, maybe it will help you, to help me see something different. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whew. Thanks, you’ve been busy!

Mys

Hey guys,

I wanted to give you an update and answer your posts. I was not on the site this weekend. We still had some tilling to do. Unfortunately, we still have some more to do. I think we both underestimated this project. But, it will be nice when it is finished.

Anyway, my W and I have not had any arguments or major disagreements this week. In fact, during our anniversary dinner I had brought up how I did not feel we are getting much further from the MC because all we end up doing is agruing during the session and the MC tries to improve our conflict settling and we are no better off than when we had walked in, because the argument the MC is helping us settle is one that was resolved before we walked in. Therefore, I suggested that we go into the next appointment and throw it back at the MC. I said we should not have any problems and say OK, we are not arguing this session, lets work on something that would improve our love for eachother.

My W did not say much until last night. She said that we did not have any arguments this week and we can tell that to the MC and work on something else. I thought this was nice. We also have cuddled a little bit this week (I initiated). We worked together on the patio and really did not get into any arguments. I was also really impressed with my W and could not keep up with her yesterday. IT was really hot and I was looking forward to getting as much done as I could and then I started getting sick from the heat. I did not stop working, but this seriously slowed me down. When I would stop for a break, my W cut the grass (she is fanatical about the yard), I would break again and she would water flowers. I did not know how she was doing it in the heat, but I was impressed. I told her this and she said, "thanks." We'll see how tomorrow's MC session goes.

Infinitehope- I am glad you have stepped in to offer your views.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> EL I have stayed off this thread because it mirrored my situation so very closely. My first M ended because of an affair (her). Lead to strengthening my distrust further.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Unfortunately we are members of the same club. My first W did this when I would travel out of town for business.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 1. Cuddle with your W whether she asks or not. Make it warm and tender and keep your hands away from any sexual spots.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I started this this week. IT was nice and she did not reject me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 2. Go to bed and snuggle with her, tell her you need this contact for stability </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I combined #1 & #2 and cuddled with her in bed. I did not mention the stability thing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 3. In every way possible be near her without it turning sexual.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This has to be done with her feeling smothered. People do need their alone time as well. I am concerned with her feeling smothered.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 4. The fact that she is going to MC with you, talking to you etc is a sure sign that things are improving
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 5. I found that by doubting my W and in my mind criticising (sp) all of her screw ups IE she didnt finish my BDAY shopping on time. Or she didnt compliment me on such and such that I did for her, really wasn't fair.
Had I simply watched her actions, and listened to 50% of what she was saying as the truth I would have been so much further ahead.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Point taken.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you make a statement regarding behaviour stick to your word. In every way your W is measuring you up to see if you will change and if it is real. By the same token always be honest with your feelings.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right here.

MyAlias -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think this is important. Of course I think it is important because it is the one area of my R I realized I was screwing up on. I would hear my W say those words and it never registered that she gave up or didn't try because she felt it wasn't good enough or wasn't enough. I gave her those impressions and I need to be accountable for them and responsible enough to recognize when I'm making her feel that way. Accepting the service sex she was willing to provide was one way I've changed part of that 'not good enough' impression.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know you are right and this is a big point. As you can tell from the time line in my previous point, we got married in the middle of all our relationship turmoils. We had not had sex for a while before our wedding night, and I was feeling bad that we would not be intimate on our wedding night. I did not let my W know my concerns. On our wedding night, she initiated. Then on our week long honeymoon she initiated twice more. This was three times in one week and it blew my mind. Druing the honeymoon, I mentioned to my W how nice this was and wished we could do this more often. I meant, I wished we could maintain the momentum, but all she heard was that three times in one week was not good enough for me. I think we have been intimate three times since this. I tyr to be very careful of what I say because I realize that with my W, there is no, "this is not what I meant." What I say has to be right the first time.

Myschae -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> “Mercy sex” seems to be defined (rather loosely) as when a low-drive spouse offers sex to the high drive spouse without increasing his or her drive to match. It conjures up these horrific images of the low-drive spouse simply “consenting” and “lying there, doing nothing – waiting for it to get over with.” And, I’m sure that is what happens in some cases. Unfortunately, those images tend to stick with the high-drive spouse to the point that s/he will often try to “increase” her/his spouse’s actual preference for sex – ostensibly to avoid “mercy sex.” </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I agree with you here. However, if I had a spouse, who just laid there like "is it over" from the beginning until now, I would have little problems if I chose to be in this relationship with this information. The problem comes from a dramatic change in one's personality or actions with regards to sex. For instance, in my case, we had wonderful and energetic times in the beginning of our relationship. The last time we were intimate, she did just say ok, and lay there waiting for me to finish. This made me feel more detatched to her than not having had the intimate moment (because this moment was not intimate). Therefore, it actually turned me off. This is similar to the opposite. If your partner and you had nice energetic intimate moments and then they decided to kick it up several notches and brought out the leather outfits, whips and chains. You would not be willing to accept their form of desire unless you were prepared for it (and even with preparation maybe not). This is an extreme example, but the point is the same. Why do I (as the higher-drive) have to accept a drastic change of nothing (or almost nothing). She was not like this before and has changed since we have been together. I do not think (or am hoping atleast) she is not really like this and that it is situational and reversible.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But, there are various ways to achieve sexual fulfillment. Desire comes in all shapes and sizes. Sometimes, desire can be pure, animal lust. Other times, it can be romantic, affectionate, wanting-to-be-close. Some people define sexual fulfillment as achieving orgasm. Others define it as achieving mutual orgasm with a partner. Others might define it as being able to please their partner by helping his or her partner achieve orgasm without concern about whether or not s/he achieves one for her/himself. Sometimes the definition of SF will change with the MOOD of the individual and swing from animal lust to a deep caring act. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with you here as I can have different levels of desire. Sometimes I have that animal lust and other times I feel like a deeper more soulful connection. Being intimate for me means much more if I can bring my partner to orgasm.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think it’s important that you plan ahead for tomorrow’s MC appointment. You know it gets on your wife’s nerves that you go in there and argue. Why not plan to build some agreement, instead?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As I said earlier in this post, we have reached an agreement and are not going to fight during this next appointment. I am hoping we can then address something that helps us create love for eachother.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It really is a pain. I take comfort in knowing that someday I’ll look back at all this and be glad I didn’t give in and commit a felony. Probably. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't commit a felony. I do not think they allow you much internet access and I still need a lot of help! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, you might not be able to make it “easy” exactly, but you can make it easier. One way to do that is to quit bouncing in and out. Learn to manage your frustration a little better and practice patience. There is going to be forward progress and there are going to be setbacks. Try not to let individual incidents shake your composure so much. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right here. Its 100% or nothing. I need to be calm through unsteady waters. Thanks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, she has you argue with each other while you’re in her office? Maybe I just have an unclear picture of what goes on.

Communication is important – what that involves is learning to get your messages across in a way that your spouse can understand and use. What is she doing to help you with that?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The MC asks us about a disagreement we had over the last week, then asks what each of us thought and since we are at defensive stages right now it is easy for this to take off from there. Then the MC refferees trying to get us to say things so the other will understand it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Safety, comfort, and trust have a lot to do with predictability. One of the concerns I have with your behavior is your volatility. Your wife needs to be able to positively predict what you’re going to do and how you’re going to react in order to feel safe with you. That means that the actions that she predicts have to be actions that are conducive to her being able to open up to you. For example, if she wrecks the car, she needs to be able to predict that you’ll first be concerned with her safety, and next be concerned with how you can help her logistically. If she’s concerned that you’re going to yell, scream, stomp, turn purple with rage, call her names, or threaten her with divorce she’s not going to feel safe telling you that information.

The same thing applies to SF, when you get there. She needs to be able to predict your reaction if she’s not in the mood for sex and it can’t be pouting, incessant questioning, begging, dragging her into a long discussion, etc. She needs to be able to predict your reaction if she’s not in the “mood” but is willing to accommodate you and it shouldn’t be sulking, trying everything you can to change her mind with technique, or frustration. It CAN be a statement that you’re disappointed and hopeful for a rain check on another evening. It can be that you appreciate the offer but you’re willing to wait a few days and see if the mood strikes her.

And, just as an aside, predictability would increase your trust and safety level, as well. If you were able to accurately predict that your wife would respond positively to a certain behavior, wouldn’t you find it much easier to engage in that behavior even if it involved “going out of your way?”
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand. This will take time for my W to see that I am not reacting how she thinks I would have reacted in the past. She is constantly saying she is doing things because she thought I would feel or react a certain way which is completely off base. At times I feel as though she is having a discussion in her head that I am not a part of, but then she reacts to me as if I was in her head and participating the way it had in her head. Have I made this more confusing now?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, how will you know that nothing will change? Unless your wife flat out tells you that she is never going to change no matter what you do during a calm, credible conversation (not during an emotional outburst), there really is no way to tell, is there?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No there is not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Whew. Thanks, you’ve been busy! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope this gave you a little more perspective into how she may be feeling. I do not claim to understand women. This is why I value your perspective and try to give you as much info as I can. I know that I know my W better than anyone, but, I do not know everything about women and you got me on the experience level.

Thanks for all of your help.

EL

Well, Today I wanted to offer an update.

We went to MC today and stayed with our agreement to not get into a full blown argument and put it back on the MC and kick start some type of recovery program that we can see moving forward. This seemed to be going fine. I amanged to bring up how my W feels that anything she does is not enough or not good enough for me. I said I felt bad that she feels this way and do not understand sometimes when I am making her feel this way. I also explained how we had a discussion earlier in the week about my missing just the simple things like cuddling and that my W explained that she has learned not to do these things because of it always creating expectations in my mind.

The MC understood all of this and took the lead explaining to my W how she feels (in her own terms). My W agreed with what the MC said. Then the MC did the same to me and I agreed with her. The MC then asked if there was a touch that my W could do or have done to her that we could both agree would not ever lead to sex or any expectations. My W could not come up with one. The MC asked if I could agree to cuddle with my W in bed and agree that it would not lead to sex.

This is where I shot both feet off. I said, "Yes, I could cuddle with my W and not expect sex, but this did not mean that I never will expect sex." Now, what I meant to say was that by agreeing to not expect sex when cuddling, I did not wnat my W to end up (over time) assuming that I am now fine with just cuddling and do not need sex. We'll this put my W on the defensive and she said that now she will not know what I am expecting if we cuddle. I apologized and said that I did not say what I meant correctly. The MC stepped in and pointed out how I just shot both feet off. The MC said that I have subtly led to this point in every session, which I did not realize. I said that I am concerned that my W will eventually feel that I no longer have interest in her sexually if I "play along" and do not allow myself to want sex when we are close and intimate. The MC said to both of us, can we reach an agreement here that the purpose of this counseling is to improve our emotional trust and improve our sexual intimacy. My W said, "this is why I thought we were here." I said, "of course." The MC said, "good." So I guess we have reached an agreement.

My W said that she does not need reminders that I want sex, because I am a guy and will always want sex. I said this was not a fair statement and hurt. She said she knows that I want sex and I do not need to constantly remind her. I said, I need her to agree that the problem still exists once in a while so that I know she is not content in thinking falsely that our marriage is perfect, when I start just accepting everything without complaint. My W thought this was rediculous.

The MC felt that we are improving slightly and will both need to let go of the past to move forward. My W said that this will take time for her to unlearn what she has learned. I said that we need to both understand that we have both done things that is not good for our M and that we need to both work on things with in ourselves. It is not one person's fault more than the other. My W said she has worked on herself over the last four years. I do not see this and think things have slowly gotten worse. My W also said that she had told me over the last four years about how I was causing these issues as well and that I have only "woken up" just recently. I said that I have willingly realized and accepted that I have some things I have done that have hurt our M. I need her to come to the same realization and to be open about it.

This session did not get as heated as the others. My W left in a better mood than she has from any other session. I was happy because I felt we reached an agreement as to why we are in MC. Why am I still uncertain about today's session then? I do not know.

Anyway, Love to hear from you guys on this.

EL

EL,

I've just got a few minutes and I got to fly out of here but I wanted to chime in a bit.

I think you are still uncertain because your W is not saying what you want to hear. She has not stated that SF is important in the relationship and that she is willing to provide it as often as is necessary.

But then again to her it isn't that important yet. The cuddling and other things that lead to trust and respect, etc are more important to her. Yet you dipped the topic right back to sex when you shot your foot off.

Your W made some comments you need to look at closely and not misinterpret.

For instance, it's important for you to hear her and what she means when she says 'I know you want sex almost all the time ... you don't have to keep reminding me.' It gives her the wrong impression of your intentions. It gives her the impression is is all about the sex. Also keep in mind she knows you are willing and/or wanting other things in the R ... she just knows (as you've proven) that SF is your most important need. And she's not ready to tackle that need yet.

I think the SF topic is really causing a roadblock in you two working together. I wish you had the energy left to put that need towards the back burner a bit.

I can't say more right now as I've got to go but I wanted to say a little.

I'll try to provide more later.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The MC felt that we are improving slightly and will both need to let go of the past to move forward. My W said that this will take time for her to unlearn what she has learned. I said that we need to both understand that we have both done things that is not good for our M and that we need to both work on things with in ourselves. It is not one person's fault more than the other. My W said she has worked on herself over the last four years. I do not see this and think things have slowly gotten worse. My W also said that she had told me over the last four years about how I was causing these issues as well and that I have only "woken up" just recently. I said that I have willingly realized and accepted that I have some things I have done that have hurt our M. I need her to come to the same realization and to be open about it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">EL,

This is just my opinion but I think your W is still dealing with your issues in the mode of RIGHT/WRONG. And because she needs to be right she's not willing to admit to anything that concedes her part in the non-working pieces of the M. She's still defensive because she feels the need to still blame you for what has happened. She feels like the victim.

So what do you do about that? Well I would strongly encourage you not to convince her to admit anything. It's pointless. Yes it's meaningful to get her to make changes but I don't think it's totally necessary for her to admit her part in the failure of it. It's not necessary so long as she's willing, one way or another, to start making some changes.

And you already know how those changes will come about don't you???? Yes, by changing yourself to the point where she feels the R is safe, respectful and trustworthy.

EL, I'd bet you a bagful of cash that your W will meet you in the middle if you just soften your demeanor a little more. Work hard at steering conversations away from SF and start dealing more with your other ENs (affection, RC, etc.)

Listen and work closely with your C about your issue with shooting yourself in the foot. It's not that you're doing that intentionally but it certainly is your subconscious controlling how you come acrossed. You may say that your shots are misinterpreted but I don't think that they are. Deep down you are saying what your subconscious is thinking and that is continuing to hold you back from being the kind of person your W wants.

I hope some of this makes sense and helps some.

Thanks MyAlias,

What you have said does make a lot of sense. My W is still looking at right/wrong and is intense on not being wrong on any front. Sometimes I get suckered into this and fight with her over who is right or wrong and in the end it really does not matter. I just wish she saw that she is doing this and how pointless it is. If I try to point this out to offer her perspective, it turns into her say, "no, I am not!" Therefore, I do not try to offer her this perspective any longer. The MC has said we should not defend ourselves and accept eachothers unique perspectives.

I am trying really hard to meet my W halfway on a lot of this and I am trying to not shoot myself in the foot (one tends to run out of feet after a while). Anyway, thanks for continuing to post, it is nice to have this forum as a support device. Otherwise I think I would just go insane having to internalize all of this.

By the way, I saw the advice Myschae gave you on your latest thread. She is definitely good at swinging the 2x4s! I hope you are taking what she said on board.

Thanks,

EL

Just wanted to offer a good update,

Last night I told my W that I wanted her and she said ok! It was wonderful! She said she could tell that I have been working on things over the last couple of months. I said to her that I wanted to grow old with her. She said she does too. Afterwards we held eachother for a long time and I fell asleep holding her. It has been so long since we had a night like this and she completely validated me and all of my efforts. I know this is a small step forward, but I can't help but be excited by this!

Anyway, I do not want to shoot my self in the foot (as we all know I am prone to do), therefore, I was hoping for some advice as to how to move forward. I do not want to make too huge of a deal with this and make my W sorry she has taken a chance because I am talking about it too much. This morning I thanked her for a wonderful night.

At the end of last night, my W mentioned she was getting sore because she has not done this in a while. I did not understand why and she did not offer much. Therefore, this morning I was concerned about this and asked her why she was in pain. She just said she was getting sore. Is there any ideas here? I know if I push the issue (out of concern) my W will get turned off from this latest experience because I would be talking too much about it. However, I do not think this issue should be ignored.

Anyway, just looking for some thoughts and comments.

Thanks,

EL

Um, what's to be confused about?

1. She hasn't been using those muscles much lately, so the muscles are tired and sore.

2. That's an extremely sensitive area and you just chafed the daylights out of it. Again, if you were doing this regularly it would be a bit desensitized and wouldn't get sore so easily.

Why would you bug your wife about it? All that does is make her more reluctant to offer up such personal information in the future.

<small>[ August 05, 2004, 09:13 AM: Message edited by: mineownself ]</small>

I do not want to bug her, but I was just concerned that there might be more to this. You see in some threads that some women have difficulty with SF because it is painful. This I had not heard before and a little flage went up because I am being more aware of what my W says and how she reacts. So maybe I am just reading too much into this, like you are suggesting. I just did not want to ignore anything she might have been trying to tell me?

Well bugging her won't help. It sounds like she did tell you what she wanted to tell you, but you weren't satisfied and wanted to find ways to get more out of her. That's really disrespectful.

You could maybe say something like: "Hey, I'd like to ask about this one last time and then I promise to drop it unless YOU want to talk about it again. Were you saying you were sore meaning that we hadn't done this much lately? If that's the case I know you'll need some time to recover, and I'd like to offer you a candlelit massage tonight that has no sex or sexual touching in it to make the recovery time pleasant, if you think you would like that. If you think it's something more, I'd like you to let me know when you're ready to talk about it or if you want my support in seeing a doctor."

But after that YOU MUST DROP IT. Pestering her is only going to kill intimacy, not build it. And you absolutely MUST respect her determination that it is simply out-of-practise soreness if that's what she thinks is the case. There is no reason at this point to think it is anything else.

Next step: Think about what this looks like from your wife's point of view.

You've said she thinks you're all about wanting sex and that's what everything boils down to with you. That's what most of your posts here come down to. Your MC has said you drag every conversation around to you wanting sex.

You ask and your wife says yes and that she's been seeing changes you make. Then she gets sore, as is normal after a hiatus. She tells you she is sore. Instead of showing sensitivity and support by saying things like, "oh, well we'll have to take things more slowly then or give it a rest for a bit" and offering her lots of nonsexual affection and comforting (let's face it, ANY association of unwanted pain with sex is a traumatic experience and what she needs is support and nurturing and comforting), you're interested in bugging her to find out "what's wrong". Because, of course, if there's something physiologically wrong you get to point the finger at that/her for your lack of sexual satisfaction, and instead of working on your own contributions to the situation, just label her as "broken" and be done with it.

I seriously doubt all this has run through your wife's mind. But it does describe the emotional discomfort she's probably feeling over your reaction to her communication.

You are doing a very good job of displaying more concern for your wants than for what's going on with her. How about changing that?

Mineownself,

I do not think I am getting what I was meaning across. I am not saying things because I want more sex. I am raising the issue of my W's comment regarding soreness out of concern for my W and my lack of being a woman to understand what she is saying. I think you answered my question that it is normal after long periods with intimacy for a woman to have soreness. I thank you for this answer.

The other thing I am pondering is how to show her my appreciation without her thinking I am making too big of a deal out of it. I think you also answered this through the massage idea (great idea by the way).

Thanks for your thoughts.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You ask and your wife says yes and that she's been seeing changes you make. Then she gets sore, as is normal after a hiatus. She tells you she is sore. Instead of showing sensitivity and support by saying things like, "oh, well we'll have to take things more slowly then or give it a rest for a bit" and offering her lots of nonsexual affection and comforting (let's face it, ANY association of unwanted pain with sex is a traumatic experience and what she needs is support and nurturing and comforting), you're interested in bugging her to find out "what's wrong". Because, of course, if there's something physiologically wrong you get to point the finger at that/her for your lack of sexual satisfaction, and instead of working on your own contributions to the situation, just label her as "broken" and be done with it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mineownself, I feel this is unfair. I was asking to try and understand what my W was saying and feeling. I am definitely not trying to find more "blame" to put on her as I understand this does neither of us no good. We both went for years trying to fix what was "broken" with my W (including her saying it was all her and something was wrong with her). Since April (as I say in my posts), I now realize this is not the case and that I have contributed a decent amount towards our issues. I also have felt horrible for any contributions I have made towards my W feeling like it has all been her fault.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You are doing a very good job of displaying more concern for your wants than for what's going on with her. How about changing that? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, I do not feel this is fair. My reason for posting what I did today was to try and gain the understanding that you provided (that it is normal for a woman to feel some soreness after not having been intimate for a period of time). This was purely out of concern for my W and my not understanding what she meant. I am very concerned with what is going on with my W and have constantly put these things over my wants and needs for several years.

Sincerely,

EL

<small>[ August 05, 2004, 10:22 AM: Message edited by: Extremely Lost ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Extremely Lost:
<strong>
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You ask and your wife says yes and that she's been seeing changes you make. Then she gets sore, as is normal after a hiatus. She tells you she is sore. Instead of showing sensitivity and support by saying things like, "oh, well we'll have to take things more slowly then or give it a rest for a bit" and offering her lots of nonsexual affection and comforting (let's face it, ANY association of unwanted pain with sex is a traumatic experience and what she needs is support and nurturing and comforting), you're interested in bugging her to find out "what's wrong". Because, of course, if there's something physiologically wrong you get to point the finger at that/her for your lack of sexual satisfaction, and instead of working on your own contributions to the situation, just label her as "broken" and be done with it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mineownself, I feel this is unfair. I was asking to try and understand what my W was saying and feeling. I am definitely not trying to find more "blame" to put on her as I understand this does neither of us no good.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You entirely missed the point of my post. It's not about what your motivations are. It's about how things could very likely look or feel for your wife right now.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You are doing a very good job of displaying more concern for your wants than for what's going on with her. How about changing that? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, I do not feel this is fair. My reason for posting what I did today was to try...
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, you're entirely missing the point. It's not about what you meant. It's about how what you DO may very likely look to your wife. IT DOES NOT MATTER what you "mean" if the behavior you display for her to see sends an entirely different message. Think about how to behave in a way that will show her the message you want to send THROUGH YOUR ACTIONS.

Extremely Lost,

I’m happy to hear about your nice evening.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> At the end of last night, my W mentioned she was getting sore because she has not done this in a while. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep. If it’s been awhile, women tend to get sore. She said she was getting “sore” not “in pain.” And, she told you why “she hasn’t done this in a while.” That’s pretty much it. It happens. It’s nothing for you to be overly concerned about. I’ll let you in on a little secret – I don’t find the soreness at all unpleasant, it’s kind of a nice ache in a way. (Ok, that’s probably TMI, but maybe it will ease your mind.) Also, I’m not sure what you consider to be a ‘long time’ but just for your reference I can be sore after just 2 weeks of no intercourse though it tends to be more noticeable if it’s longer than that. And if it’s been awhile, it can take a while for that area to desensitize. (Mineownself was right on.)

Now, what should you do with this information? Well, if she mentioned it while you were engaged in the activity, the gentlemanly thing to do would be to finish up. It’s not a good time to try to break a stamina record, if you catch my drift. Soreness leads to discomfort which then becomes pain. If it was after everything was finished, the gentlemanly thing to do would be to kiss her sweetly, thank her for pleasing you so nicely, and hold her. And, make a mental note that you might wait a day or so before asking again. (One, maybe two days is all it takes (for me).)

I suggest you let the matter drop with her now. It’s normal. One pet peeve of mine is being constantly asked “Are you still sore?” when it’s been a few hours vs. a few days.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The other thing I am pondering is how to show her my appreciation without her thinking I am making too big of a deal out of it. I think you also answered this through the massage idea (great idea by the way). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What are your wife’s biggest EN’s? What does she like? I like Mineownself’s suggestions but, frankly, I do not generally enjoy massage. Remember the lesson you learned from your anniversary dinner. If you want to do something nice FOR HER, than make it all ABOUT HER. Don’t pick something you think is romantic or think she should like because it relates, pick something you KNOW will make her eyes light up. It doesn’t have to meet any “traditional” definition of romance. Take care of your child for the night. Does she like books? She likes landscaping, is there a plant you know she’d like? Take her out seed shopping? Any garden tool she’s been meaning to get? Landscaping supplies? Tokens of appreciation should be specifically tailored to the person getting them. And, for the sake of all that is good, NO SURPRISES. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Why, one of the nicest things my H ever got me was a $2.00 letter opener….

Good luck,
Mys

Mineownself,

I agree with you about it all being about my W's perception right now. This is why I needed to know what you have told me about the soreness. I wanted to try and understand her better and be able to show her that I care about her and how she feels. I just did not want to stub my toes on this because this seems to be one of the first signs of our M moving forward towards a better place. I was excited and happy about all of this and I wanted to share this with my W and try to make her feel better if I could.

Its also about my perception as well and I have really been feeling unloved lately. This physical night made me feel totally connected with her and definitely made me feel loved. It does make it easier to want to meet her needs more.

Myschae,

Thanks for responding, this is exactly the information I was looking for. Mineownself gave me some good insight as well.

To answer your question that was looming, we have not had any physical contact like this since October of last year. So this is my definition of a long time.

I was a gentleman last night. I loved getting to hold her again. As I was saying to mineownself, I believe this was a leap of faith on my W's part and I wanted to show her I truly appreciated it and did not want to let her down by blowing a toe or two off. I understand - NO SURPRISES! I also need to figure out how to let her know that because I asked and she agreed, that I am not going to all of a sudden expect sex all the time again the next time we cuddle or hold hands.

I also do not want to get my hopes up because she could feel that this was enough for 10 months again.

Thanks,

EL

Hmm, you're still not understanding the point I'm trying to make. Maybe you're not in a place where you can right now, but I think it's really possible it could save you a load of headaches.

Here it is:

It is NOT all about your wife's perception. You can't control her perception, her feelings, etc. When you try to deal with her her perception directly and try to get that changed to be more in line with what you would like, you continually shoot yourself in the foot in a big way.

What you should be all about at this point is your behavior and the message that sends. The behavior you choose will send certain messages that will contribute to your wife's perception of you, so you can affect her perception that way though you can't control how it changes or how fast. But once again, whenever you focus on changing her perception, you hurt your own cause. You will almost certainly have more success if you focus on your behavior and the message your behavivor sends.

Here's an example: the surprise plans deal. You want to be able to plan surprise outings for you and your wife. She doesn't want to do that. You tried to deal with that by attacking her perception directlly -- you made surprise plans anyway to show her that not all surprises are bad. This not only did not work, it backfired. The message your behavior sent is that you will run roughshod over her preferences when it suits you.

Change the focus: over time, send the message loud and clear THROUGH YOUR BEHAVIOR, NOT THROUGH WHAT YOU SAY that you will always take your wife's preferences into account when making plans for the two of you. It will take a lot of time and a lot of occurences of this before it starts to seem like your ignoring of her preferences is a thing of the past, but eventually it will happen if you are patient and consistent. At that point she will probably be very comfortable with it if you ask if you can plan a surprise dinner, and that's all it is, dinner -- but you have to keep your word on that -- no bait and switch like you did on your anniversary when you said it was just dinner but then said "the evening isn't over yet" when dinner was winding up. There may always be some limits on what kind of surprise plans your wife will be comfortable with, but if she knows she can always depend on you to stay respectful of what is comfortable for her because that is the message that has been consistently sent by your behavior, she will almost certainly be more relaxed about it than she is now.

One more time: Focusing on your wife's perception and how you can change that is not working out very well for you. Focus instead on your behavior and the message your behavior sends and let her perception take care of itself.

Mineownself,

I am trying to get what you are saying. I really am. I thought we are now saying the same things, but apparently we are not. I will disect what you wrote and put my thoughts with it and hopefully, we can figure out where I am being dense on this whole thing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It is NOT all about your wife's perception. You can't control her perception, her feelings, etc. When you try to deal with her her perception directly and try to get that changed to be more in line with what you would like, you continually shoot yourself in the foot in a big way.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand that when I try to directly alter my W's perception, I cause our M more problems. I got this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What you should be all about at this point is your behavior and the message that sends. The behavior you choose will send certain messages that will contribute to your wife's perception of you, so you can affect her perception that way though you can't control how it changes or how fast. But once again, whenever you focus on changing her perception, you hurt your own cause. You will almost certainly have more success if you focus on your behavior and the message your behavivor sends. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am all about my current behavior and the message that it is sending to my W. This is why I asked for opinions and help as to how I should be acting because I was worried that my actions (the actions I have not yet done) could alter my W's perception in a negative way. This is what I have been trying to post about all day. I am in full agreement as to focusing on the message that my behavior sends. Unfortunately, I am at a point that I am having trouble figuring out what my behavior actually should be to contribute to my W's perception in a positive way. Take for example, my W's comment on being sore. Since I am trying to listen more and be more attentive, I am wondering if she is needing me to just validate that she is sore, help her in some way to not feel sore, get her a doctor??? Until today, I did not understand the soreness comment and now I know that my W was more after my validating that she was sore. A second point is that I am over the moon with last night. I am so completely happy from her taking a step forward that I want to do the right behavior and show her my appreciation in a way that will not negatively alter her perception of me or my efforts of improving our M.

Now, I understand your example of the surprise and agree.

If it appears to you that I am still completely missing your point then please just blow my head off instead of my feet. However, I think we are actually saying the same things and our difference is lying in symantics. I do appreciate your postings and help.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Thanks,

EL

Ok, it's sounds like maybe we are on the same page.

If you want to send positive messages through your behavior, it is absolutely critical that you use the input your wife gives you.

1. She has made it repeatedly clear that she is badly wounded and suffering over the years of being treated as though she is "broken".

2. She's made it repeatedly clear that you give the impression you're all about sex and she doesn't feel like you value her a whole lot beyond what she does or does not provide sexually. When you talk here you bring every topic around to you getting more sex. Your MC has said you bring every topic around to you getting more sex.

At this point you could probably sneeze and say "excuse me" and your wife would probably be waiting to see whether you turn that into a conversation about you wanting more sex. I'm not saying that's fair or reasonable, I'm just saying right now the situation has been so stomped on by both of you and by circumstance it needs a whole lot of healing before it's no longer a raw gaping wound.

So I'm not sure anyone can come up with behaviors for you that are guaranteed to not result in your wife thinking you're all about wanting sex.

But you can show her you want to meet her needs. Tell us what they are again, and how she likes them met -- that'll get you thinking about them. Make sure you tell us exactly what she says they are and what she has said word for word if you can about how she likes you to meet them or things she likes you to do for her.