Alright Mineownself,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you want to send positive messages through your behavior, it is absolutely critical that you use the input your wife gives you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with the concept, the only question I have is one that is a bit theoretical. What about if the person in my W's spot gives inputs towards wanting things that only prolong a withdrawn cycle that you are already in? This is the case where I imagine would cross the other person's personal boundaries and therefore, not be acceptable to follow the input given.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 2. She's made it repeatedly clear that you give the impression you're all about sex and she doesn't feel like you value her a whole lot beyond what she does or does not provide sexually. When you talk here you bring every topic around to you getting more sex. Your MC has said you bring every topic around to you getting more sex. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I must believe you here because it is your perception, my W's perception and the MC's perception. Therefore, I would be an idiot to deny this with so many people feeling the same way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> At this point you could probably sneeze and say "excuse me" and your wife would probably be waiting to see whether you turn that into a conversation about you wanting more sex. I'm not saying that's fair or reasonable, I'm just saying right now the situation has been so stomped on by both of you and by circumstance it needs a whole lot of healing before it's no longer a raw gaping wound. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are very right here. Help!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So I'm not sure anyone can come up with behaviors for you that are guaranteed to not result in your wife thinking you're all about wanting sex. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This would mean my situation is hopeless and I refuse to believe this at this point, for the sake of my M.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But you can show her you want to meet her needs. Tell us what they are again, and how she likes them met -- that'll get you thinking about them. Make sure you tell us exactly what she says they are and what she has said word for word if you can about how she likes you to meet them or things she likes you to do for her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She has not given me much to go on other than the trust issue is a big one. She does not want me to feel jealous when she interacts with other guys such as old friends, neighbors, etc.. She is turned off from any jealousy and controlling behavior. She has said that she has a strong need for her financial needs to be met, which she admits are met and it is the way she likes this need to be met. She usually feels like nothing she does is not good enough for me. She made the comment last night during our time together that she does not look good in the mirror, which I disagree with whole heartedly (but it is her perception that is important). When I try to do anything supportive to help her feel better about herself, like a joint diet or whatever, she ends up hating the diet and getting moody. She still has her clothes from before our S in our closet and will not get rid of them even though she admits she will never be able to wear some of those things again because of physical changes that a diet cannot fix from pregnancy like your hips spreading or your feet getting bigger.

So what do you think?

EL

Perhaps she feels ugly about herself and so therefore wants other men to notice, flirt with and become attracted to her to verify to herself that she is still sexy.

Somehow, having "you" verify this to her is not enough.

Perhaps she feels "you" are the cause of her pregnancy which ruined her body. So she has a remaining aversion to you. As well as an aversion to having sex with you since you "caused" the "damage" because of sex, and due to pregnancy and in having sex it could cause more damage as in another possible pregnancy....

She seems to need to be able to freely flirt with and talk with other men. Maybe she would never want sex with them either. She may be adverse to having sex with anyone.

Perhaps to build her ego she needs conversations with these other men and flirting. And she is not going to want to give that up anytime soon.

I get the feeling that you are not enough for her. For some reason. But she needs you to provide for her financial needs, which you do very well, so she is staying with you for now.

Have you ever asked her if she would ever want to have sex with "any man in the world" again? Maybe it is just you that she does not want to have sex with.

<small>[ August 05, 2004, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: baba2 ]</small>

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thanks for responding, this is exactly the information I was looking for. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You’re welcome.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> To answer your question that was looming, we have not had any physical contact like this since October of last year. So this is my definition of a long time. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I did remember you mentioning it had been since last October. My purpose in providing that information was so that you can manage your expectations in case the next time you have relations, whether it’s this week, this month, or some other time in the future, your wife might be sore AGAIN. I don’t want you to worry about whether or not it’s “normal” if it keeps happening.

It’s a lot like if you haven’t worked out for a while and start going to the gym. Your muscles will feel sore. But, often, it’s not a bad type of “burn.” You feel acutely aware of the muscles you haven’t used for a while and can tell there is increased blood flow to the area. You feel “sore” but sometimes it’s almost a nice kind of sore because you know you’ve worked your muscles properly. As opposed to “pain” which would happen if you went and pulled something. You would expect that soreness to decrease over time and you’d likely limit your workouts slightly to accommodate your muscles adapting. You wouldn’t be concerned if the 2nd time and 3rd time you worked out you were still sore. You might be concerned 6 months later with regular workouts, though. You also would expect that, if you stopped working out for a couple of months, the soreness would return.

My purpose in telling you all of that is to give you a frame of reference for how to conceptualize what your wife was talking about since you lack the proper equipment to experience it yourself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I also need to figure out how to let her know that because I asked and she agreed, that I am not going to all of a sudden expect sex all the time again the next time we cuddle or hold hands. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The easiest way to do this is to hold her hand without expecting sex. If she pulls away or looks nervous just ask“Can I just hold your hand; I’d like to be close to you?” If she says "no." then let go.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I also do not want to get my hopes up because she could feel that this was enough for 10 months again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok. I have a bit of an observation for you. There’s an expression “All roads lead to Rome.” In your situation, “All roads lead to sexual anxiety.” You’re worried about having a fulfilling sex life. You’re worried about having relations. After you HAVE relations, you’re worried about when the NEXT time you’re going to have relations is going to be. Considering your situation, it’s not an unreasonable concern.

Let me say that again in case it wasn’t clear enough. Considering your situation, concern over developing a fulfilling sex life is completely, utterly justified.

You might remember that the very first thing I ever suggested to you was to work with your wife on your sexual relationship. You didn’t want to do that because you were concerned that she would think that it was “all about sex” and “nothing else was wrong.” That is fair enough. Really, it is.

What isn’t working is, that as much as you don’t want to START working on your sexual relationship, you can’t seem to work on ANYTHING ELSE without dragging that into the equation. When you were sitting in the counselor’s office talking about non-sexual touch and affection, you brought up your concern that “what if that’s all I ever get?!”

Frankly, Extremely Lost, it doesn’t really matter WHERE you start as long as you both agree to begin there. You do, however, need to learn to limit your focus in order to get success. If you don’t want to work on improving your sexual relationship right now because you feel other things are more important, that is wonderful. But, if that is your CHOICE then let this go for a while and concentrate on what you’ve decided to work on. Each time you tell your wife that “it’s not all about the sex” then insert some reference to “but unless the sex is fixed, I won’t be happy with improvement in other areas” you’re sending damaging mixed messages. Remember what I told you about trust and safely being STRONGLY linked to predictability in a good way? She needs to be able to trust that you mean what you say and that you say what you mean.

If you assert that you’re willing to wait to address your sexual relationship until you’ve built trust and safely then you need to be willing to put your concern aside over when, how, and what you’re going to do to fix your sexual relationship. If you are absolutely unable to do that – then ‘fess up. Be honest. Be direct.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> A second point is that I am over the moon with last night. I am so completely happy from her taking a step forward that I want to do the right behavior and show her my appreciation in a way that will not negatively alter her perception of me or my efforts of improving our M. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A lot of important things happened last night. One important thing was that she said she noticed you had made changes over the last few months. If you want to give her the impression it’s not “all about the sex” some very SMALL appreciative comment to that effect would probably go far. If it were me, I’d not make a huge, massive deal about it. Some affection and demonstrating that you’re happy (a nice, pleasant demeanor) would be perfectly appropriate. More than that might come across as too effusive. If it were me, I’d simply say “thank you” and ask if there was anything I can do for her tonight. Then just leave it at that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I agree with the concept, the only question I have is one that is a bit theoretical. What about if the person in my W's spot gives inputs towards wanting things that only prolong a withdrawn cycle that you are already in? This is the case where I imagine would cross the other person's personal boundaries and therefore, not be acceptable to follow the input given. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You’re asking your wife to trust that you will change your past behaviors and build a better marriage with her. Last night, she made a big effort to change her behavior and work positively on the marriage. Give her what you’ve been asking for – the benefit of the doubt. Understand that she’s only human and set backs will happen. But, this kind of thinking is not going to help YOU or HER move forward. She’s fighting YOUR perceptions of HER just as much as YOU’RE fighting HERS. You want her to make it easy on you? Make it easy on her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I must believe you here because it is your perception, my W's perception and the MC's perception. Therefore, I would be an idiot to deny this with so many people feeling the same way. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I don’t think you’re “all” about sex. I do, however, think it is very, very important to you. It’s possibly your top EN. It doesn’t make you a bad person, a pig, a sex fiend, or any other negative thing. What I don’t know, is whether or not you are willing/able to focus on anything else and put that issue aside completely and focus on what you’ve agreed to work on currently until that issue is resolved. What do you think?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She has not given me much to go on other than the trust issue is a big one. She does not want me to feel jealous when she interacts with other guys such as old friends, neighbors, etc.. She is turned off from any jealousy and controlling behavior. She has said that she has a strong need for her financial needs to be met, which she admits are met and it is the way she likes this need to be met. She usually feels like nothing she does is not good enough for me. She made the comment last night during our time together that she does not look good in the mirror, which I disagree with whole heartedly (but it is her perception that is important). When I try to do anything supportive to help her feel better about herself, like a joint diet or whatever, she ends up hating the diet and getting moody. She still has her clothes from before our S in our closet and will not get rid of them even though she admits she will never be able to wear some of those things again because of physical changes that a diet cannot fix from pregnancy like your hips spreading or your feet getting bigger. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have you ever asked her to fill out the EN questionnaire? Or, has your MC proposed a similar survey. From what you’ve written it sounds like she’d like more Admiration (nothing she does is good enough). Also, Domestic Support (house projects) seems to be pretty important to her from what you’ve written (the tiling project). It sounds like Affection (non-sexual touch) is something she’d like more of from your MC session.

When I asked you what she liked, I meant more like: books, flowers, a type of food (nice dinner), bubble baths (take care of the child), gardening tools, DVD’s, chick flicks, a nice wine, an evening alone rooting around in the garden while you take care of your child, cards, painting, making a photo album, crafty projects, etc.

Mys

EL,

Good for you. I'm thrilled for you.

And I think if you just be thrilled with the event it will help you be what your W needs you to be ... HAPPY and PLEASANT and FULFILLED.

I think a pleasant demeanor is the best gift you could give to your W. Buying her a small gift is a good idea but I think just being happy and pleasant will go a long way.

By being happy and pleasant around her she WILL get the impression that the other night WAS a big deal (because it was) and it carried a lot of weight making you feel good about her!!!

I would let the 'soreness' topic rest for now. If and when you ask for SF again and the topic comes up then ask those respectful, concerned questions.

I also liked the idea of just asking her if there was anything you can do for her. Make her realize that the circle of giving and taking will continue even after she's provided SF.

How were things at home last night?

Hey guys,

Thanks for the thoughtful support. Last night was alright. I got home and helped my W finish cleaning up the house. Her sister, her sister's husband and their 1 year old arrived late last night for the weekend. I am also trying to plan a mini vacation for my W and I. I promise it is not a surprise, but I have asked my W for her opinion on a lot of the choices and all I get is "any of it is fine for me." I have asked her, "are you sure? I really would like to do something you feel excited about doing and would really like to know which of the options sounded the best to you." She said, "I really would be fine with any of the options and you do a good job organizing and picking vacations. I really do not feel like organizing it and think you would do a better job." Now I appreciate this, but it makes me feel as though she is not that interested in the trip. However, taking her at her word, I should feel good because she has the confidence in me to make all the arrangements and she really will be fine with any of the choices. So I will move forward and organize it all. This trip is just seven days away, by the way.

baba2 -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Perhaps she feels ugly about herself and so therefore wants other men to notice, flirt with and become attracted to her to verify to herself that she is still sexy.

Somehow, having "you" verify this to her is not enough. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I thought this before. I know she is not happy with her body now (after pregnancy). She is not really over wheight as much as her hips are slightly wider and one foot is slightly larger. I think this is no big deal and she looks great. She has repeated stated her displeasure and unhappiness not being able to wear her clothes before the pregnancy. I tell her that she is beautiful all the time and all she ever says is a shy thank you. I think you are right that my verifying her beauty is not enough to satisfy her right now. However, I think this possibly could be due to her emotional dettachement from me caused by our last four years. I would like to think that if we can get our M back on track and increase our love for eachother, any statements I make regarding her looks will be taken more to heart.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Perhaps she feels "you" are the cause of her pregnancy which ruined her body. So she has a remaining aversion to you. As well as an aversion to having sex with you since you "caused" the "damage" because of sex, and due to pregnancy and in having sex it could cause more damage as in another possible pregnancy....
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sigh! I have felt this way as well. She has said many times that this is not the case, but she could just be being polite. She did express fears of getting pregnant shortly after our S was born. Our intimacy just after the birth was pretty good and she was concerned about if things felt different to me. Then her fears of getting pregnant started to come out and it became evident that this was more than just a passing feeling of hers.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She seems to need to be able to freely flirt with and talk with other men. Maybe she would never want sex with them either. She may be adverse to having sex with anyone. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not think she would have sex with other men. However, I do give some credence to your ego boost idea. I also must beleive she is not adverse to ever having sex. Like I said in earlier posts, our sex life was good in the beginning and has deteriorated over time. I think that her deteriorated labido is a learned habit (caused by many factors - myself mostly). I also believe that as any habit, this one can be changed for the better.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Perhaps to build her ego she needs conversations with these other men and flirting. And she is not going to want to give that up anytime soon. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Possibly. This is where I have to rely on my own self esteem. I have survived a previous marriage that ended because of my partner cheating on me and getting into drugs and stealing money (basically imploding and not wanting any help from me). I know I can survive pretty much anything and that I have a lot to offer a person. With some self confidence, I can use this as a crutch to help me through this period.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I get the feeling that you are not enough for her. For some reason. But she needs you to provide for her financial needs, which you do very well, so she is staying with you for now. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Our whole relationship (after we found out she was pregnant) was all about stability. I do not doubt there are some of these issues, especially with a child involved, but I do not think my W is as cold as the above statement sounds.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Have you ever asked her if she would ever want to have sex with "any man in the world" again? Maybe it is just you that she does not want to have sex with.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have thought about this as well and plays into my worries and concerns caused by my mistrust issues influenced by my past. Nothing is certain in this World, but we have to dare to open ourselves up emotionally and trust someone once in a while in order to truly enjoy life. If we all went through life safe, there would not be much excitement and joy, which comes along with pain and discomfort.

Baba2, are you alright? From your post, I get a feeling as though you are angry right now. I hope it is not because the nunn's habit is stuck in shipping. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Myschae - Thanks yet again for your stellar insight and spelling it out for me simple enough for it to sink into my thick skull.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I did remember you mentioning it had been since last October. My purpose in providing that information was so that you can manage your expectations in case the next time you have relations, whether it’s this week, this month, or some other time in the future, your wife might be sore AGAIN. I don’t want you to worry about whether or not it’s “normal” if it keeps happening.

It’s a lot like if you haven’t worked out for a while and start going to the gym. Your muscles will feel sore. But, often, it’s not a bad type of “burn.” You feel acutely aware of the muscles you haven’t used for a while and can tell there is increased blood flow to the area. You feel “sore” but sometimes it’s almost a nice kind of sore because you know you’ve worked your muscles properly. As opposed to “pain” which would happen if you went and pulled something. You would expect that soreness to decrease over time and you’d likely limit your workouts slightly to accommodate your muscles adapting. You wouldn’t be concerned if the 2nd time and 3rd time you worked out you were still sore. You might be concerned 6 months later with regular workouts, though. You also would expect that, if you stopped working out for a couple of months, the soreness would return.

My purpose in telling you all of that is to give you a frame of reference for how to conceptualize what your wife was talking about since you lack the proper equipment to experience it yourself.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly what I needed to hear and know. Thank you again for being open and honest with me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The easiest way to do this is to hold her hand without expecting sex. If she pulls away or looks nervous just ask“Can I just hold your hand; I’d like to be close to you?” If she says "no." then let go.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I get it. Its like the NIKE slogan. Just do it! Sometimes we (humans) can complicate the easiest things. Point taken.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ok. I have a bit of an observation for you. There’s an expression “All roads lead to Rome.” In your situation, “All roads lead to sexual anxiety.” You’re worried about having a fulfilling sex life. You’re worried about having relations. After you HAVE relations, you’re worried about when the NEXT time you’re going to have relations is going to be. Considering your situation, it’s not an unreasonable concern.

Let me say that again in case it wasn’t clear enough. Considering your situation, concern over developing a fulfilling sex life is completely, utterly justified.

You might remember that the very first thing I ever suggested to you was to work with your wife on your sexual relationship. You didn’t want to do that because you were concerned that she would think that it was “all about sex” and “nothing else was wrong.” That is fair enough. Really, it is.

What isn’t working is, that as much as you don’t want to START working on your sexual relationship, you can’t seem to work on ANYTHING ELSE without dragging that into the equation. When you were sitting in the counselor’s office talking about non-sexual touch and affection, you brought up your concern that “what if that’s all I ever get?!” </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree that my biggest EN is SF for now because it is the thing most lacking of my ENs. I am not adverse to trying to start the healing through working on SF first. All I am saying is that I have tried this for years and have not gotten very far and have in fact gotten worse. Therefore, I took a long look inside myself and saw things that could be improved. I also learned that SF is not as important for my W (for right now) probably because some of her other (bigger) EN's were not being met. Therefore, I realized I needed to take a drastically different approach to improving our M. This is why I believe, based upon all of my W's inputs, that working on SF first will be futile at best. However, if my W said lets fis SF first, you could bet that I would be there with bells on.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Frankly, Extremely Lost, it doesn’t really matter WHERE you start as long as you both agree to begin there. You do, however, need to learn to limit your focus in order to get success. If you don’t want to work on improving your sexual relationship right now because you feel other things are more important, that is wonderful. But, if that is your CHOICE then let this go for a while and concentrate on what you’ve decided to work on. Each time you tell your wife that “it’s not all about the sex” then insert some reference to “but unless the sex is fixed, I won’t be happy with improvement in other areas” you’re sending damaging mixed messages. Remember what I told you about trust and safely being STRONGLY linked to predictability in a good way? She needs to be able to trust that you mean what you say and that you say what you mean.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I am beginning to have the ability to do this. Based upon the inputs most recently from my W in MC. The MC asked if we would agree that one of the goals for improving our M was to improve SF. My W agreed. Also, my W said she knows and always knows I need SF improved eventually. With these words being said to me, and the understanding that I am willing to abandon SF in the short term (for the greater good), but will not abandon it forever, I can move on and work on other things. In fact, this short trip I mentioned at the top is going to be taking my W to wine country in California. She has never been to California and we will be staying in a nice hotel with a spa (she loves spas). I do not expect anything sexual during this trip, but I know she is thinking in her mind that I am very hopeful for SF on this trip. I am contemplating how or what to say to her to ease her mind (without completely shutting the door on SF if she decides she is in the mood for it). I think this is fair. If you have some suggestions, I am all eyes.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you assert that you’re willing to wait to address your sexual relationship until you’ve built trust and safely then you need to be willing to put your concern aside over when, how, and what you’re going to do to fix your sexual relationship. If you are absolutely unable to do that – then ‘fess up. Be honest. Be direct.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wierd enough, I thought I had done this by saying I could, in the short term, ignore SF but would not forever. However, many people have been pointing out to me that somehow, qualifying this statement at the end by saying "but would not forever" is not right. I get confused on this because I feel it is setting up a personal boundary that lets my W know that this is temporary because I love you, but I also have love for myself enough to respect me enough to say that I cannot have a marriage that does not include SF.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> A lot of important things happened last night. One important thing was that she said she noticed you had made changes over the last few months. If you want to give her the impression it’s not “all about the sex” some very SMALL appreciative comment to that effect would probably go far. If it were me, I’d not make a huge, massive deal about it. Some affection and demonstrating that you’re happy (a nice, pleasant demeanor) would be perfectly appropriate. More than that might come across as too effusive. If it were me, I’d simply say “thank you” and ask if there was anything I can do for her tonight. Then just leave it at that. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree that I thought her statement regarding how she has seen me working hard for the last few months was a huge positive. I told her that I loved her and while we were physical I said how this made me feel so connected to her. I have been trying to keep my excitedness in check.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, I don’t think you’re “all” about sex. I do, however, think it is very, very important to you. It’s possibly your top EN. It doesn’t make you a bad person, a pig, a sex fiend, or any other negative thing. What I don’t know, is whether or not you are willing/able to focus on anything else and put that issue aside completely and focus on what you’ve agreed to work on currently until that issue is resolved. What do you think?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for the kind words. My problem comes in with "put the issue aside completely" is pretty broad and vague. Does this mean that even once in a while I cannot ask for SF? Does this mean that if she (for some silly reason) asks for SF I reject her. Does this mean that I wholistically must try and purify my mind from any and all thoughts of SF? Does this mean to give up any hope for physically being close to my W in the short term (even if I am not pushing it)? Does this mean I ignore when she makes comments to me about (even when she is joking) about how we are not physically "together" much? I am not asking these questions to make a mockery of what you have stated. I simply am not on the same understanding as some as to what this really means. As you have obviously picked up on, I need to have it spelled out to me in the most basic terms sometimes.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Have you ever asked her to fill out the EN questionnaire? Or, has your MC proposed a similar survey. From what you’ve written it sounds like she’d like more Admiration (nothing she does is good enough). Also, Domestic Support (house projects) seems to be pretty important to her from what you’ve written (the tiling project). It sounds like Affection (non-sexual touch) is something she’d like more of from your MC session. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I have. I asked for the EN, LB and recreational surveys to be filled out "to help me be a better husband." She had complete difficulty with this and wrote SF was the lowest and that it was not applicable. The others she rated as pretty much all the same with the exception of SF. Leaving me to guess what her biggest EN's truly are. However, I do think you are right on the Admiration. We both would like this more from eachother. Domestic support is also a good one. For a while there she felt like she was the only one doing things around the house. Over the last four - five months I have kicked into over-gear on the domestic side of things. Many times my efforts are met with a "why are you doing that" or "stop, don't do that beacuse you are making me feel guilty for not doing that." I am not following where you picked up on the affection thing from (again I could be dense here). This is why I am using this post, to gain some perspective from you guys. As you know subtle things usually fail to get through to me for some reason and I cannot spend the entire time I am with my W discussing things until I have a thourough understanding because it just gets my W frustrated and mad. The MC unfortunately does not suggest surveys like this. I asked her, but she just does not do that, which to me is a negative.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When I asked you what she liked, I meant more like: books, flowers, a type of food (nice dinner), bubble baths (take care of the child), gardening tools, DVD’s, chick flicks, a nice wine, an evening alone rooting around in the garden while you take care of your child, cards, painting, making a photo album, crafty projects, etc.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My W loves flowers. She loves Mexican food (which I have trouble liking). She loves landscaping. She loves pictures and putting together photo albums. She is really into music (knows more than a lot of DJs).


MyAlias -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Good for you. I'm thrilled for you.

And I think if you just be thrilled with the event it will help you be what your W needs you to be ... HAPPY and PLEASANT and FULFILLED. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for the kind words.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think a pleasant demeanor is the best gift you could give to your W. Buying her a small gift is a good idea but I think just being happy and pleasant will go a long way.

By being happy and pleasant around her she WILL get the impression that the other night WAS a big deal (because it was) and it carried a lot of weight making you feel good about her!!!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is what I am thinking too.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I would let the 'soreness' topic rest for now. If and when you ask for SF again and the topic comes up then ask those respectful, concerned questions. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Agreed. It is interesting though. I never really thought of it like mineownself and Myschae explained. This is the value of this forum. Being able to gleen insight from other people's thoughts. I really find this valuable. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I also liked the idea of just asking her if there was anything you can do for her. Make her realize that the circle of giving and taking will continue even after she's provided SF. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I like this too. I am not a person who really values physical gifts (getting them). I do like to give gifts and do things for people.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How were things at home last night?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I explained most of this up top. The weekend is going to be busy with her sister and sister's family. Then this next Thursday my mom comes down and will take our S back to her house (8 hours away) for a week. Our S gets to spend one week every summer with my mom as a minni vacation. He really looks forward to this and says that mommy and daddy are not allowed to come because it is his trip. I think this is so kool that he has his own little vacation with nonni and poppi. This also gives us an opportunity to have some one on one time. So we are leaving a week from tomorrow if I get all the arrangements made. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thanks for everyone's support.

EL

Erm, maybe the others here can explain it better, but letting fixing the SF situation go for a bit means not bringing it up all the time. You tend to bring it up pretty much every chance you get.

Your wife has said she knows this has to be fixed eventually. You have said you are willing to let it sit for a bit and address other issues first. When you keep bringing SF up all the time and dragging it into conversations anyway, it makes it sound like you don't believe your wife and you are lying yourself, since you're not actually putting the issue aside.

On your anniversary you weren't even willing to relieve the stress of the situation by saying you didn't expect anything sexual to come out of the evening. Then you set up a situation that made it very clear that you WERE expecting something sexual, and all this after saying you were willling to address other issues first.

I guess what I would suggest is to decide that you will be fine with no sex for three months, and to tell your wife that you are fine with that and just want to spend that three months spending time with her when possible exploring having fun together in other ways. You can tell her that if she wants to tell you she wants to have sex, you will be delighted to participate, but you meant what you said about spending some time working on the other issues first. Then drop it. No bringing up sex for three months. No dragging the fact that is has to be fixed eventually into the conversation -- you've both already agreed it is the case. Just drop it. No touching what my ballroom dance teacher calls "the slap zones". No hinting that your wife should offer. No pouting or sulking. Spend more time with her than before. Spend it doing things she would like to do. Listen carefully to what she says. Pay attention.

Mineownself,

Thanks for the suggestions. I think they are great. Just for the record, I have not been bringing up SF since the MC session with my wife except for askfor it on Wednesday night.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> On your anniversary you weren't even willing to relieve the stress of the situation by saying you didn't expect anything sexual to come out of the evening. Then you set up a situation that made it very clear that you WERE expecting something sexual, and all this after saying you were willling to address other issues first. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is not fair. I did not think about presetting the evening up with a no sex clause. Fine I am guilty of that, but it is not that I was not "willing." What do you mean about "set up a situation that made it very clear that you WERE expecting something sexual?" All I did was take her to dinner. At the end of dinner I said, the evening is not over yet (meaning that I had more plans setup at home and they did not include sex). Then we went home and I gave her a blanket as one gift (because cotton was what the gift was to be). We used this blanket to sit in front of our fireplace. I then got a bottle of champagne and gave her a nice set of earings. After this, I went and picked up my S. I did not do ANYTHING that made it VERY clear that I was expecting sex. I will give you the fact that I also did not make it clear that I did not expect sex. Fair enough. Now, maybe you meant my W's perspective was that I was making it clear, which maybe, but I did not intentionally make it clear that sex was expected. Sex was not even expected. As Myschae said, if I breath air my W thinks I am expecting sex at this point.

As far as discussing SF in this post, this is what the post is for. I can use this as a tool to vent and get ideas from other individuals. Just because I write about sex here does not mean that I am DOING things that are saying I WANT SEX. Please do not fault me for using this forum to discuss the things that cause me anxiety. If I am not supposed to even discuss the lack of SF in my life here then I am going to feel bad loosing this tool as a release for my frustrations.

Mineowneself, I do appreciate your sticking up for my W at times (I really do). However, please do not think that she is someone who has been horribly wronged by me and now I am out to continue to control her and take advantage of her. I assure you this is not the case. I am a victim in this as well. I am trying extremely hard because this last April she would no longer try. She had given up. I am not a "bad" guy, really I'm not.

Thanks,

EL

EL,

I don't think MOS is trying to make you feel or even suggest that you are a bad guy. What she is trying to do is point out the subtle ways your behavior may MAY send the wrong message to your W.

I do get the sense that SF is your #1 priority because this thread and your responses are filled with your discussion about it. You can explain all your actions to us until you are blue in the face but that isn't going to change the way your W, quite possibly, is reading them.

Trust me, MOS knows you are a good guy and she knows your heart is in the right place. It wasn't all that long ago she was digging at me trying to get me to see how my behavior was affecting my R. I realized after awhile that she was doing me a great service by pointing out how my limited focus was affecting me from moving forward. I'd spend my time trying to defend my actions instead of reading and understanding what she was telling me.

I try to live my life based on a few principles and one of the principles is: THERE ARE NO VICTIMS. Which means we are accountable and responsible for everything that has and will happen to us. I noticed how you said you are a victim. Neither you nor your W are victims. Your life is what you two made of it.

I don't know if that is a theory you believe but I know for me it gives me a sense of control and empowerment. It helps me when I feel myself sitting around being less than productive/constructive.

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I get it. Its like the NIKE slogan. Just do it! Sometimes we (humans) can complicate the easiest things. Point taken. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">True. The way I conceptualize it is to make your actions and your words very, very consistent with each other. If you say “I just want to be close and affectionate with you right now.” Then keep to non-sexual touching.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Therefore, I realized I needed to take a drastically different approach to improving our M. This is why I believe, based upon all of my W's inputs, that working on SF first will be futile at best. However, if my W said lets fis SF first, you could bet that I would be there with bells on. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fair enough. I’m not trying to change your mind.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think I am beginning to have the ability to do this. Based upon the inputs most recently from my W in MC. The MC asked if we would agree that one of the goals for improving our M was to improve SF. My W agreed. Also, my W said she knows and always knows I need SF improved eventually. With these words being said to me, and the understanding that I am willing to abandon SF in the short term (for the greater good), but will not abandon it forever, I can move on and work on other things. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a good start.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In fact, this short trip I mentioned at the top is going to be taking my W to wine country in California. She has never been to California and we will be staying in a nice hotel with a spa (she loves spas). I do not expect anything sexual during this trip, but I know she is thinking in her mind that I am very hopeful for SF on this trip. I am contemplating how or what to say to her to ease her mind (without completely shutting the door on SF if she decides she is in the mood for it). I think this is fair. If you have some suggestions, I am all eyes. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I suggest you write her a letter – and post it HERE for tweaking before you give it to her. The goal of your letter is to tell her more or less what you’ve just said. You aren’t expecting sex. Describe what that means, exactly. Does that mean you’re not going to ask for it? Does that mean any touching you do will be affectionate only? So, if you kiss her or hold her hand or cuddle up to her in bed that’s as far as you’ll take it? Does that mean that you will be 100% satisfied with your vacation if you don’t have sex? Your wife likes to know what to expect. Tell her what to expect – what will your actions be? Tell her that you’re willing to let her take the lead and, should she feel the desire to initiate, she can expect your full cooperation.

FYI, the purpose of my questions in the above paragraph was to give you food for thought in composing your letter. I'm not looking for you to provide me with seperate answers.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Wierd enough, I thought I had done this by saying I could, in the short term, ignore SF but would not forever. However, many people have been pointing out to me that somehow, qualifying this statement at the end by saying "but would not forever" is not right. I get confused on this because I feel it is setting up a personal boundary that lets my W know that this is temporary because I love you, but I also have love for myself enough to respect me enough to say that I cannot have a marriage that does not include SF. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, the “not forever” part is somewhat redundant to the “short term” part of the sentence. It’s like saying “I’m not thinking of the pink elephant. Nope, there’s no pink elephant in MY thoughts.”

So, let’s do a little bit of reframing on the boundary issue. Boundaries are very important. Another way to express your boundary is that you will not remain indefinitely in a marriage in which your needs are not met and in which you can not be happy. Since you know that you won’t be happy in a celibate marriage, then that neatly takes care of that issue without focusing unduly on the “sex” part of the EN’s. SF isn’t your only EN, and your goal is to build a mutually satisfying, loving relationship in which both of your EN’s are met and you both can find happiness (right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thanks for the kind words. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You’re welcome.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My problem comes in with "put the issue aside completely" is pretty broad and vague. Does this mean that even once in a while I cannot ask for SF? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No. What it means is that you don’t expect to make PROGRESS in that area over the short term. For example, if you ask for SF as things stand now, you have certain expectations. Just because you make progress in other areas over the short term, you shouldn’t expect improvement in that area.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Does this mean that if she (for some silly reason) asks for SF I reject her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Does this mean that I wholistically must try and purify my mind from any and all thoughts of SF? Does this mean to give up any hope for physically being close to my W in the short term (even if I am not pushing it)? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am SO tempted to say “Yes.” to your first question. *chuckles* Ahem. You really shouldn’t tempt my sense of humor like that.

As for being physically close, didn’t you discuss in counseling some non-sexual touches you and your wife were going to work on? I’m a little confused by the question – whether you mean give up all hope of SF or give up non-sexual affectionate touch. The non-sexual affectionate touch was something I thought you were building agreement on, so you should definitely do that. SF, on the other hand, is a different story. You should not expect improvement in that area until the other areas are addressed. You’ve mentioned that the last time you had SF (prior to last week) was October. Don’t expect to go from once every 10 months to 3 times a week (or whatever your preference would be) right now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Does this mean I ignore when she makes comments to me about (even when she is joking) about how we are not physically "together" much? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It depends on whether or not on whether how you respond is a LB. Assuming it’s playful banter, I see no reason to stop.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am not asking these questions to make a mockery of what you have stated. I simply am not on the same understanding as some as to what this really means. As you have obviously picked up on, I need to have it spelled out to me in the most basic terms sometimes. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know. I hope my answers make it clearer. What it means, in a nutshell is to stop asserting it so much as a boundary. Instead, focus on working on a mutually satisfying relationship. If, right now, you need to work on safety and trust, then focus on that and don’t expect your sex life to improve. If it does, then that is great. If it doesn’t, then try to contain your disappointment and do not build resentment. Remember, you’re not working on that part yet. The assumption is that your ultimate goal is a mutually satisfying and fulfilling marriage. You’re not going to stop till you get there, right? So, eventually SF is going to HAVE to be a part of that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Leaving me to guess what her biggest EN's truly are. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah, I see.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Domestic support is also a good one. For a while there she felt like she was the only one doing things around the house. Over the last four - five months I have kicked into over-gear on the domestic side of things. Many times my efforts are met with a "why are you doing that" or "stop, don't do that beacuse you are making me feel guilty for not doing that." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How do you react to her protests?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am not following where you picked up on the affection thing from (again I could be dense here). This is why I am using this post, to gain some perspective from you guys. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It was based on your description of your MC session. It sounded like her biggest reason for not being affectionate was her concern about it leading to sexual expectations on your part. It’s not an entirely unreasonable conclusion, on her part, either. She understands that you would like more SF, and one way of distancing herself from filling that need when she’s uncomfortable is to distance herself from affectionate behavior. Your description of your MC session implied that she’d be happy to have some physical affection if it didn’t lead to any pressure or expectations of sex. It sounded like she was looking for some reassurance about your expectations.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is why I am using this post, to gain some perspective from you guys. As you know subtle things usually fail to get through to me for some reason and I cannot spend the entire time I am with my W discussing things until I have a thourough understanding because it just gets my W frustrated and mad. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand. At some point, it will be good to get your communication to a level when you CAN gain that understanding.

Do you know what about your current method of conversation makes your W frustrated and mad?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I did not think about presetting the evening up with a no sex clause. Fine I am guilty of that, but it is not that I was not "willing." What do you mean about "set up a situation that made it very clear that you WERE expecting something sexual?" All I did was take her to dinner. At the end of dinner I said, the evening is not over yet (meaning that I had more plans setup at home and they did not include sex). Then we went home and I gave her a blanket as one gift (because cotton was what the gift was to be). We used this blanket to sit in front of our fireplace. I then got a bottle of champagne and gave her a nice set of earings. After this, I went and picked up my S. I did not do ANYTHING that made it VERY clear that I was expecting sex. I will give you the fact that I also did not make it clear that I did not expect sex. Fair enough. Now, maybe you meant my W's perspective was that I was making it clear, which maybe, but I did not intentionally make it clear that sex was expected. Sex was not even expected. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This was directed at Mineownself, but I’d like to comment. There were several things worked against you in that scenario. One, is the ambiguity about the evening. While you understood what your intentions were and what your expectations were, your wife was left to guess. It’s human nature to assume the worst in stressful situations. In her case, being in an ambiguously romantic situation was stressful because of the state of your relationship. The very romantic nature of the evening as you’ve described it, DOES imply a certain amount of sexual tension. I don’t think it was unreasonable for your wife to anticipate being put in a sexual situation due to the heavily romantic nature of the evening. I doubt she would have had the same reaction if you had taken her out to a ball game. (She might have been just as unhappy, but probably for different reasons.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am not a "bad" guy, really I'm not. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nah, you’re not a bad guy. And, come vent here all you like.

Good luck to you,
Mys

Hello guys,

This weekend we had my W's sister, brother in law and 16 month nephew at our house. We had a good weekend. Saturday we left the girls to go shopping together and just spend time together while the guys took the kids to the zoo. Saturday night, I tried to cuddle with my W and she said that her shoulder was hurting from carrying her purse. Whatever, I said ok and just went to sleep.

I have noticed my W would give me an unexpected touch once in a while (hand on the shoulder kind of thing). She has not done this in a long time. This was nice and I hope it continues. I will tell her this made me feel good.

This weekend, I told her that on our upcomming trip I wanted her to feel comfortable and enjoy the trip. I said that I did not want her to worry and that I do not expect sex on this trip. I also said that if she feels like she wants to have sex, then this would be fine, but, I will not expect anything. My W said, "Thank you." That was it.

Another thing I do not get is that my W is a planner and always has to plan her trips (like when we go home to her relatives)etc.. Then she always leaves me to plan our vacations. So I tried Thursday night to get her more involved. This final attempt on Thursday got me the comment, "I told you to go ahead and plan it because you do a much better job than I would and I am not really interested in organizing it." Hello! I said to her that this makes me feel as though she is not really interested in this trip. She said this was not true and that she is interested in it because she has never been to California. Am I wrong to feel that even though she said this, she is still not very interested in it because she has not taken much of an active roll in planning it?

So, I go all out for this trip. I even upgrade our seats for the long flights. I get the rental car. I find a very nice hotel and spa and rent a suite. I even set dinner reservations for the first night. I get home Friday and tell my W all the plans. She thought they were good. I then mentioned that the spa is requiring several days advanced bookings and she need to go on the web and pick what she would like to do. I offered that if she picked what she wanted, I would call and set the appointments for her. She was like ok, I'll do it later. Sunday and she still has not taken the 15 minutes to look this information up. She had went on her computer for other things. So, I reask her on Sunday and say, "while I am at work on Monday, could you please look up the information and get back to me? I am worried that we will show up and you will not be able to do something you would have liked to because I was told it is their busy season." She just nodded. How can I not take these actions as anything other than she is not excited about this trip? Every time I flat out ask her, because her actions are making me feel this way, she would say that she is happy about it. But, it was not until Saturday that I mentioned that I would not have any SF expectations. Maybe she was seeing this trip as something that would cause her more sexual tension and was pushing it away, but on the other hand did not want to make me feel bad because she actually would like the trip. Anyway, I am wondering if I should call her now and ask if she has looked up the information yet because I really am concerned that she is going to miss out. What do you think? Should I call her or let it go?

I also wish to say that I appreciate mineownself's comments. I just get a little concerned when I feel that things are being missinterpreted and I feel like correcting these things. Mix this with my "not getting things sometimes" and I understand that it can come across as arguing. I do not wish to argue with anyone. Therefore, I apologize to mineownself if she felt as though I was being unfair. I do appreciate her perspectives as well.

MyAlias -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don't think MOS is trying to make you feel or even suggest that you are a bad guy. What she is trying to do is point out the subtle ways your behavior may MAY send the wrong message to your W. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree. I have trouble seeing or understanding the subtle points sometimes. Perhaps it is because I am tired after these years of having our issues and just want to make a drastic change towards the better and drop/forget about all the menutia. I understand that unfortunately this may not be possible. However, I am willing to look into myself and see things that I am doing or have done that should be done differently. I see our M is hurting and needs to be better. I am willing to change. I am trying very hard to listen to my W. Therefore, I would like nothing better than to just agree we need to work on things, apologize for the past, forget the past, shake hands and move forward in a loving manner.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do get the sense that SF is your #1 priority because this thread and your responses are filled with your discussion about it. You can explain all your actions to us until you are blue in the face but that isn't going to change the way your W, quite possibly, is reading them. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> My face is blue. Anyway, SF is my #1, yes. I am sure my threads will continue to have some things pertaining to SF in the future. I try to list things here (as they happen and as accurately as possible) to get help in trying to understand just how my W is interpreting these things.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Trust me, MOS knows you are a good guy and she knows your heart is in the right place. It wasn't all that long ago she was digging at me trying to get me to see how my behavior was affecting my R. I realized after awhile that she was doing me a great service by pointing out how my limited focus was affecting me from moving forward. I'd spend my time trying to defend my actions instead of reading and understanding what she was telling me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand what you are saying. I am going to go back and reread her postings. I am sure that I am a little defensive because I have opened myself up by saying, hey I now see that I have been a contributor to this mess. I see things that I have done to push my W emotionally away from me. Unfortunately, my W has picked this ball up and ran with it. She is over compensating for her feeling like it was hers and hers alone for several years. I knew/expected that this would happen for a little bit, but know it is time that we say we have had equal involvement in where we are today. It is time to just accept this and move on. Neither of us are willing, nor required, to accept 100% blame for where we are. I would not expect my W to shoulder the balme 100%, nor do I expect this of myself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I try to live my life based on a few principles and one of the principles is: THERE ARE NO VICTIMS. Which means we are accountable and responsible for everything that has and will happen to us. I noticed how you said you are a victim. Neither you nor your W are victims. Your life is what you two made of it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Agreed. This was a poor choice of words on my part.

Myschae -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I suggest you write her a letter – and post it HERE for tweaking before you give it to her. The goal of your letter is to tell her more or less what you’ve just said. You aren’t expecting sex. Describe what that means, exactly. Does that mean you’re not going to ask for it? Does that mean any touching you do will be affectionate only? So, if you kiss her or hold her hand or cuddle up to her in bed that’s as far as you’ll take it? Does that mean that you will be 100% satisfied with your vacation if you don’t have sex? Your wife likes to know what to expect. Tell her what to expect – what will your actions be? Tell her that you’re willing to let her take the lead and, should she feel the desire to initiate, she can expect your full cooperation.

FYI, the purpose of my questions in the above paragraph was to give you food for thought in composing your letter. I'm not looking for you to provide me with seperate answers.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Unfortunately, I have already had a short convo with my W regarding this. I do think a letter is a great idea and that maybe I should still do one to follow up with things because, as you pointed out, I do not think I was clear (more like pretty vague) in only saying I will not expect sex. So here goes;

Dear W,

I know we talked on Saturday regarding our upcomming trip to California. I am very much looking forward to this trip and the time we are going to get to spend together away from everything else. I also understand that given our current issues with in our marriage, you might be feeling a little pressure as to my expectations on this trip. Even though I have already mentioned that I would not expect any sexual activities on this trip, I wished to give you a little better understanding to hopefully help you feel just as comfortable and excited as I am.

I wish for you to understand that I love you and truly care about your feelings and your emotions. Though at times, I have trouble expressing things how I should, I love you as my partner in life and cherish any moments together with you. At times on our trip, we may kiss, cuddle, hold hands or hug eachother. At anytime during these activities, I will only be participating in these things in an affectionate way. I will not carry with me any expectations for any of these activities to lead further on towards sex. I am willing to let you take the lead and, should you feel the desire to initiate, you can expect my full cooperation. I will be 100% satisfied with this trip if you and I are able to enjoy ourselves, relax and have fun without any sexual moments.

How's that sound?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, let’s do a little bit of reframing on the boundary issue. Boundaries are very important. Another way to express your boundary is that you will not remain indefinitely in a marriage in which your needs are not met and in which you can not be happy. Since you know that you won’t be happy in a celibate marriage, then that neatly takes care of that issue without focusing unduly on the “sex” part of the EN’s. SF isn’t your only EN, and your goal is to build a mutually satisfying, loving relationship in which both of your EN’s are met and you both can find happiness (right? ).
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is great and everything, but if I so much as say "not willing to remain in a marriage" she sees this as a threat and then says she will take our S and move back to her home state. I have tried to phrase this as you have put it (and I really like the phrasing by the way) but all is heard is if you do not ____, I will leave. This then sticks in her mind and is all she hears. She brings it back up to me, several times, days later. This is why I have tried to state this in other ways without saying I will leave. Even in MC when I mentione the "not forever" part, she immediately said, "Or you'll leave, right?" Believe me, I have not said that I will leave. I am very careful not to say this and is I do finally say this, I will be leaving. I do not take this lightly, nor do I believe it should be used as a threat.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> No. What it means is that you don’t expect to make PROGRESS in that area over the short term. For example, if you ask for SF as things stand now, you have certain expectations. Just because you make progress in other areas over the short term, you shouldn’t expect improvement in that area. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But according to the MB concepts, if you improve other areas, there should be some residule improvement in others as an effect of your spouse feeling good about these other needs being met. Right? Therefore, is it not fair that while I improve on her most important ENs she starts to fall in love with me again and ends up meeting my most important ENs?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am SO tempted to say “Yes.” to your first question. *chuckles* Ahem. You really shouldn’t tempt my sense of humor like that.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In life one needs to laugh once in a while!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As for being physically close, didn’t you discuss in counseling some non-sexual touches you and your wife were going to work on? I’m a little confused by the question – whether you mean give up all hope of SF or give up non-sexual affectionate touch. The non-sexual affectionate touch was something I thought you were building agreement on, so you should definitely do that. SF, on the other hand, is a different story. You should not expect improvement in that area until the other areas are addressed. You’ve mentioned that the last time you had SF (prior to last week) was October. Don’t expect to go from once every 10 months to 3 times a week (or whatever your preference would be) right now.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In MC we did discuss this and my W could not come up with any so the MC said she did not have to come up with any right now. This is horrible because it leaves the door open for this to drop in my W's mind. However, I think it is a great idea and will not let this drop. I think I will bring it up in tomorrow's session. Also, I do not hold onto any thoughts that all of a sudden we are going to have SF three times a week. I have been going through this too long. I would hope that we do not have to wait 10 more months. I think this could be reasonable seeing as how I started working on things through MB for 3.5 months now. I guess if it does not take another 10 months, this would show improvement.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It depends on whether or not on whether how you respond is a LB. Assuming it’s playful banter, I see no reason to stop.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You see this is a difficult one. For example, my W has told me that when I joke about SF, it makes her feel bad or uncomfortable. For example, one time the neighbors we over and someone said something a neighbor turned it into a one line sexual joke. My W found this funny. She also has made these one liner jokes and thought them to be funny. Then I make a one liner joke and she laughs at the moment and later tells me that it bothered her and sets her back. Other times she will make a one liner refference to how I am a guy and "do not get it much." This truly does bother me, but she tries to say it in a joking way. Frankly, it p___es me off. So I do not understand the thinking on her end here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How do you react to her protests?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I usually will say, honey, I am doing these things because I have the time to and realize they will help you out. I am doing these things to make you feel good, not bad. Then I usually finish doing whatever it was I was doing. This is because she has complained that I was not doing these things before. So I do not get it. If you are to tell me to listen to her and believe what she is telling me, I would have to say that this changes depending on the moment and because of the mixed messages, I cannot figure out what to really do. Therefore, I pick what I think is the better thing to do (help out the W).


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It was based on your description of your MC session. It sounded like her biggest reason for not being affectionate was her concern about it leading to sexual expectations on your part. It’s not an entirely unreasonable conclusion, on her part, either. She understands that you would like more SF, and one way of distancing herself from filling that need when she’s uncomfortable is to distance herself from affectionate behavior. Your description of your MC session implied that she’d be happy to have some physical affection if it didn’t lead to any pressure or expectations of sex. It sounded like she was looking for some reassurance about your expectations. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Boy, I hope you are right. I would think that tomorrow's MC session, my letter followed up with consistent actions on my part, might allow her to experiment on this trip with affection. This would be great.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do you know what about your current method of conversation makes your W frustrated and mad?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She feels that I am the one who carries on a circular argument and beats it into the ground. Obviously, I feel she needs to take some credit for this as well. However, I have not let any of our arguments over the last couple of months end up being circular. I just stop when I feel it is getting to that point. Both of us have noticed and admitted that we have our disagreements now, but they tend not to become circular. During the last MC session however, my W did say that she feels like she is always waiting for the big sex argument to come up in bed. This has once in a while (usually after a cold and unsympathetic rejection). She says, "I am just waiting for it to happen." This is because of the "no SF is not acceptable forever" comment I made.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This was directed at Mineownself, but I’d like to comment. There were several things worked against you in that scenario. One, is the ambiguity about the evening. While you understood what your intentions were and what your expectations were, your wife was left to guess. It’s human nature to assume the worst in stressful situations. In her case, being in an ambiguously romantic situation was stressful because of the state of your relationship. The very romantic nature of the evening as you’ve described it, DOES imply a certain amount of sexual tension. I don’t think it was unreasonable for your wife to anticipate being put in a sexual situation due to the heavily romantic nature of the evening. I doubt she would have had the same reaction if you had taken her out to a ball game. (She might have been just as unhappy, but probably for different reasons.)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This I understand and can accept, but what I was unwilling to accept is that I "made it very obvious that I wanted sex." I did try very hard to make it a romantic evening, and I will never apologize for this because I am an old romantic and feel it is the right and nice thing to do on our anniversary. We had been talking for months on how we need to work on our M and how I was not going to push her and how I am listening to her more and how I am trying to meet her ENs. I just tried to connect emotionally with her. I also think it would not be a very far emotional leap for her to know that the night did not have to end sexually. For crying out loud, she is the woman who says it is my body and no one can tell me what to do with it. So with this being the case, why can't she be comfortable with a romantic evening knowing that she is actually in charge the whole time. I cannot believe it is the stress of dissapointing me because that has seemed to not really be high on the list for years. So what gives here? So what if she was in a romantic setting. I never, repeat, never force myself on her or do not listen when she has said no. She has nothing to fear with me and she does know this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Nah, you’re not a bad guy. And, come vent here all you like. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks, I think I will. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

One final question, when we were intimate last week, my W mentioned (in the middle of it) that she did not want to dissapoint me. Is this a bad thing? Was she intimate for the wrong reasons? Am I reading into things too much?

All The Best,

EL

Wow. I think the bottom line is your wife is just NOT ATTRACTED TO YOU. Simply she does not want to have sex with you. Maybe she was never attracted to you.

Now you have to have all this counseling, change yourself into a pretzel, buy expensive trips, try and read her mind, etc all for nothing. She will still not be attracted to you.

Have you ever asked her, "Are you attracted to me?" or, "How do you feel about making love to me?"

"Were you ever attracted to me?" "While we were dating were you attracted to me?"

I just do not see that she is attracted to you in any way shape or form. Sorry to be so negatron here...

Ah Baba2,

Hello. How's the habit fit? Laughs...

To answer your questions, I have asked her these things. She says she is attracted to me. All I can do is take her word and try to figure out why her current actions do not show me this. Therefore, I think she had found me unattractive because of my jealous and controlling behavior in the past. I think we need to grow back our love with eachother through meeting our EN's.

To play devil's advocate and show you that I am not just a doormat want to be lets suppose she never was attracted to me and this whole marriage if a sham. Why would she go through going to the MC? Why marry me only two years ago in the middle of our problems? Why continue trying to work on things? I know you will say money etc.. However, she knows (from my last marriage) that she could cheat on me and leave me and I still would not let her be poor. Therefore, I do not think this is true. In my heart I do not think this is true.

I do try to relay all the input on this thread as accurately as I can because I do want to represent my W and I as fairly as possible because I wish to get fair perspectives. I do not think you are giving my W enough credit here.

Best Wishes,

EL

I am glad you think she is still attracted to you. Sometimes I like to bring back the basics when things get so complicated. You know, if a computer breaks and you search all over for a software problem and instead it is a hardware problem of a cord not plugged in.

I go by people's actions. And if her actions show she never wants sex again, and does not like to have sex with you or want sex with you for a year then it seems she is not attracted to you sexually. No matter what she says.

Baba2,

I am not arguing the point that my W is not as sexually attracted to me as she was when we first met. I believe you are right and that my W is not that sexually attracted to me right now. The key is what caused the change and how do you fix it. We both realized this was an issue from the start. My W would go out and try to find a solution, just as hard as I am looking now. After years of not finding the right solutions or advice she gave up and withdrew.

Now that I have found MB and other information like it, I have found something we had not tried yet. This also caused me to realize what I had been doing to hurt us. I do not think things are hopeless and still hope they are recoverable. It will be interesting to see how this trip goes. If she can be comfortable and affectionate after the information I have provided to her about my not having any expectations.

EL

Baba2,

I am not arguing the point that my W is not as sexually attracted to me as she was when we first met. I believe you are right and that my W is not that sexually attracted to me right now. The key is what caused the change and how do you fix it. We both realized this was an issue from the start. My W would go out and try to find a solution, just as hard as I am looking now. After years of not finding the right solutions or advice she gave up and withdrew.

Now that I have found MB and other information like it, I have found something we had not tried yet. This also caused me to realize what I had been doing to hurt us. I do not think things are hopeless and still hope they are recoverable. It will be interesting to see how this trip goes. If she can be comfortable and affectionate after the information I have provided to her about my not having any expectations.

EL

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Am I wrong to feel that even though she said this, she is still not very interested in it because she has not taken much of an active roll in planning it? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’m not sure why you draw this conclusion. Perhaps she plans her trips because she has to and feels that level of organization is a necessary chore. Since you’re willing and more than capable of handling it in reference to your vacation, she doesn’t want to be involved. People can express interest in a variety of ways in different situations. If she says she’s interested. Aside from her lack of planning, what other indications do you have that she’s not interested.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This weekend, I told her that on our upcomming trip I wanted her to feel comfortable and enjoy the trip. I said that I did not want her to worry and that I do not expect sex on this trip. I also said that if she feels like she wants to have sex, then this would be fine, but, I will not expect anything. My W said, "Thank you." That was it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Since you said this, I think you should not do the letter. I think you did just fine – good job, by the way. Leave it alone. Adding a letter at this point will simply draw too much attention to the topic.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Anyway, I am wondering if I should call her now and ask if she has looked up the information yet because I really am concerned that she is going to miss out. What do you think? Should I call her or let it go? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Unless YOU’RE worried about missing something then let it go. You’ve given her all the information she needs to make this choice. If she forgets or decides not to, then she’ll have to manage her own disappointment on the other end. It’s not YOUR responsibility. Let her handle it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Unfortunately, I have already had a short convo with my W regarding this. I do think a letter is a great idea and that maybe I should still do one to follow up with things because, as you pointed out, I do not think I was clear (more like pretty vague) in only saying I will not expect sex. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, you did a fine job. Leave it as it is.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am very careful not to say this and is I do finally say this, I will be leaving. I do not take this lightly, nor do I believe it should be used as a threat. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fair enough. Focus on the part about being happy and having your needs met.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But according to the MB concepts, if you improve other areas, there should be some residule improvement in others as an effect of your spouse feeling good about these other needs being met. Right? Therefore, is it not fair that while I improve on her most important ENs she starts to fall in love with me again and ends up meeting my most important ENs? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is very possible that, as things improve in general, that part of your relationship will also improve. Have we discussed fairness in marriage? Things aren’t always fair or what we expect. I think that things will go more smoothly if you manage your expectations and NOT expect SF to improve in the short term. At some point it does need to be addressed. If it’s better by then that’s great. If not, take care of it when the time comes.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> For example, my W has told me that when I joke about SF, it makes her feel bad or uncomfortable. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Better safe than sorry. Avoid doing that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Other times she will make a one liner refference to how I am a guy and "do not get it much." This truly does bother me, but she tries to say it in a joking way. Frankly, it p___es me off. So I do not understand the thinking on her end here. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is it possible she’s just as perplexed by your reaction as you are by hers? After all, she hears you joke about it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I usually will say, honey, I am doing these things because I have the time to and realize they will help you out. I am doing these things to make you feel good, not bad. Then I usually finish doing whatever it was I was doing. This is because she has complained that I was not doing these things before. So I do not get it. If you are to tell me to listen to her and believe what she is telling me, I would have to say that this changes depending on the moment and because of the mixed messages, I cannot figure out what to really do. Therefore, I pick what I think is the better thing to do (help out the W). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What do you think would happen if, instead of your usual response you paused and said “Oh, would you like me to stop?” Then stop or continue based on her answer. But, not completely eliminate the behavior. The next time, you feel like doing <whatever>, do it unless she asks you to stop.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Boy, I hope you are right. I would think that tomorrow's MC session, my letter followed up with consistent actions on my part, might allow her to experiment on this trip with affection. This would be great. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’m lost then. I thought that you, your wife, and your MC discussed non-sexual touch (cuddling) at your last session and had an agreement. Is that true?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She feels that I am the one who carries on a circular argument and beats it into the ground. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don’t understand what you mean by circular. Can you explain?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> During the last MC session however, my W did say that she feels like she is always waiting for the big sex argument to come up in bed. This has once in a while (usually after a cold and unsympathetic rejection). She says, "I am just waiting for it to happen." This is because of the "no SF is not acceptable forever" comment I made. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Awww… what a bleak picture that paints. I can understand why she would worry about it, that sounds like an uncomfortable scene. What was your response to that? If it were me, I’d have offered an agreement right then and there to not discuss SF while you are in bed together. (That’s almost always a good policy anyway.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This I understand and can accept, but what I was unwilling to accept is that I "made it very obvious that I wanted sex." I did try very hard to make it a romantic evening, and I will never apologize for this because I am an old romantic and feel it is the right and nice thing to do on our anniversary. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There isn’t anything wrong with romance and it can be a very nice thing to do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We had been talking for months on how we need to work on our M and how I was not going to push her and how I am listening to her more and how I am trying to meet her ENs. I just tried to connect emotionally with her. I also think it would not be a very far emotional leap for her to know that the night did not have to end sexually. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It also was not a far emotional leap for her to think that the end of the evening would lead to a sexual situation. A romantic dinner, champagne, sitting on a blanket in front of a fire, a gift of jewelry? If this had been a T.V. show, the next scene would have been showing the couple in the sheets, you know. Left in a vacuum of information, her fear won out. I have mentioned that people tend to fear what they consider to be the worst case scenario.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> For crying out loud, she is the woman who says it is my body and no one can tell me what to do with it. So with this being the case, why can't she be comfortable with a romantic evening knowing that she is actually in charge the whole time. I cannot believe it is the stress of dissapointing me because that has seemed to not really be high on the list for years. So what gives here? So what if she was in a romantic setting. I never, repeat, never force myself on her or do not listen when she has said no. She has nothing to fear with me and she does know this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I don’t think she was concerned about you forcing yourself on her. I do believe that she was worried about disappointing you. Remember her comment in the MC office? ” During the last MC session however, my W did say that she feels like she is always waiting for the big sex argument to come up in bed.” That sounds to me like she’s worried about it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> One final question, when we were intimate last week, my W mentioned (in the middle of it) that she did not want to dissapoint me. Is this a bad thing? Was she intimate for the wrong reasons? Am I reading into things too much? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Intimate for the wrong reasons? What would be a “wrong reason?”

Go back up and read your statement about not believing she’s stressed about not disappointing you. Extremely Lost, do I have to beat you over the head with this? She said she’s worried about disappointing you DURING an intimate moment. Why on earth would she make something like that up?

I don’t know that you’re reading “too much” into it at all. But I do wonder if you’re reading the “wrong things” into it.

Mys

Hi EL!

I've been reading your thread this whole time...but haven't posted much as I'm a little sensitive about this issue right now. I, in some ways, identify very much with your wife in a lot of the circumstances you write about.

I thought I'd chime in and give a litte of my POV to maybe help you see what your wife is feeling.

[big disclaimer]
I am not saying this is for sure how your wife feels. It is only how I feel. In circumstances I perceive to be similar to yours. Also - I am in no way saying you are a bad guy. Or that you are doing the wrong things. I am just giving you a maybe insight into how your wife might be interpreting things based on her emotional state - which I am assuming to be similar to mine. That being said... take my thoughts with a grain of salt roughly the size of Jupiter (thanks MOS for a great word picture!)
[/big disclaimer]

ok. I'm gonna address what I perceive to be issues of POV differences. You and your W seem to be miscommunicating with each other on some issues that come up often in my M - so maybe by presenting how I would say things - you will see a glimpse of what could be her side...

1) The dinner out. Ok - that would have freaked me out. The part that would have gotten me worried is that part where you say "the evening's not over yet" without providing details. I am very hesistant around my H. We are walking on eggshells because of past hurts. So we try to be careful around each other and are intentional about our behavior. The last thing I would want is to be in a date, that may have expectations attached, and then to find out that there are "exciting suprises" ahead that I have no control over. Freak out! My mind would be racing... "he couldn't possibly be talking about sex? BUt what if he is? What if he feels that this romantic setup is warming me up to the idea nd he might make a move?" Ack!

Not saying that was your intention - but suprises are probably scary for your W right now because she doesn't want to be in a situation where she has to turn you down or dissapoint you.

This is why telling her you aren't expecting sex on your vacation is great. Hopefully she will be more relaxed without the (maybe unreasonable) anticipation of dissapointing you hanging over her.

2) The helping with stuff... My H is very in to this. and it gets very hard for me. I am a pretty independent person. i like to do things that I have said I will do. It makes me uncomfortable to have someone else do things for me that I feel are my responsibility. Especially since I am hesistant around my H and don't like feeling "indebted" to him right now. I get that you do not necessarily intend it this way - but helping when help has been kindly refused feels (to me) controlling and paternalistic. It makes me very uneasy. As though I will somehow have to "pay" for that nicety later. so my suggestion for you is to do what Mys said - offer to help, do helping things, but if she asks you to stop - stop. You are trying to be kind, which is great, but you don't want to then negate that by steamrolling over her protestations.

If you feel you should be helping more, then initiate a conversation where you express that you'd like to take more responsibility around the house (or whatever the helping behaviors focus on) and then ask her what things would be helpful, or offer to do things that are enjoyable for you, or that you know she would like you to do. Get her agreement first, then do them regularly.

3) The vacation. my H likes planning vacations. I like helping, but often i can't meet his expectations of planning style. It stresses me out to try and be as organized as him. And I am pretty free flowing - so a vacation that is super scheduled is actually stressful to me. That being said, your wife is not helping you out here. But it's your job to Respect Her and take her at her word. If she doens't give input, decide for yourself and run it by her. If you think spa would be fun for her - give her the info, let her manage it, and then let her also manage her emotions from the outcome (dissapointment or excitement about it). but don't pester. she's a grownup - give her the info she needs and let it be.

Ok. I think that's the scenarios that stood out to me.

One final thought. I have thought a lot about this stuff with my H right now - so this is coming out of my POV. If you don't feel it applies - disregard it. Because of that - I'll post in terms of my M. Think about if it fits your M right now.

I think my H and I are engaged in a power struggle. I think that defines everything we are doing. I have felt controlled by him in the past and am learning to set boundaries. Because of that - I am hypervigilant about feeling controlled - or as though H has power over me.

H probably feels the same way. H has said that I feel "strong and cold" to him now. As though he has no influence over me. And it is hard for him. H is trying to imporve himself - and he desperately wants things to be better between us (I think). but he is thinking in terms of power still. He wants to make me see his changes. He wants to "help" me experience the difference. He is forcing this new and improved M on me.

I'm not ready for that. I want to "discover" the new M over time as I see it working itself into all our interactions. I need to see it lived out - not "demonstrated" as if a powerpoint presentation could convince me to tear down my defensive walls.

And as long as H pushes - I will feel the need to defend. It's a power struggle.

Which is not what I want my M to be. But I am at the point where I am reluctant to give up my newly acquired power over myself - and a lot of it I think i need to keep as it is healthy. But H perceives this power that I hold, as a loss of power to himself - and as destructive to the M.

So what do we do about it? I am working on trying to be flexible and reasonable with my defenses.

What would I like H to do? I would like him to put down his weapons. To show me that I can be safe letting down my defensives by showing me it's not about power anymore - it's about sharing.

That would look like: accepting my words when I kindly refuse help or share my feelings and pov, showing wiht his actions that he trusts me to make the right decisions for myself (not having an "I know what's best for you" attitude) about work, recreation, whatever - and supporting me in those decisions. Lots of things like that - I can give you more if you want.

Do you think you and your wife are in a power struggle? It sounds like it to me. What can you do to change that?

If you want to write back to this specifically - I'll respond - but I'm gonna go back to lurking while those with a better perspective on this continue sharing their pearls of wisdom <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I hope this helps - that's my goal. Truly. If not - feel free to ignore...

lfc

Hello Myschae,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I’m not sure why you draw this conclusion. Perhaps she plans her trips because she has to and feels that level of organization is a necessary chore. Since you’re willing and more than capable of handling it in reference to your vacation, she doesn’t want to be involved. People can express interest in a variety of ways in different situations. If she says she’s interested. Aside from her lack of planning, what other indications do you have that she’s not interested.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">None, other than what appears to be her lack of enthusiasm for figuring out the details, when she is usually into these details for other non-vacation trips. She has had me plan every major trip we have taken. Granted, I like to plan the trips and think it is fun. Even though she says she enjoys these trips, I just cannot help but wonder, if there was something else she would have liked to have done or went somewhere. Look at it this way, you can obviously see what a difficult time I am having trying to do things she likes in every day life and the hard times I am having with this. Why should I believe that when we go on a trip and I am left to plan all of the major parts for all our real vacations, that she is absolutely happy and content with every choice I make? If I had this good of a hit ratio in our real life (seperating out real and vacation life), I do not think we would have any troubles at all. Do you see where I am coming from?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Since you said this, I think you should not do the letter. I think you did just fine – good job, by the way. Leave it alone. Adding a letter at this point will simply draw too much attention to the topic. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks. You still think I should not do the letter even though I was vague, like you just warned me not to be? What is the greater risk, the vagueness or the bringing it up again? I really do not know the answer to this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Unless YOU’RE worried about missing something then let it go. You’ve given her all the information she needs to make this choice. If she forgets or decides not to, then she’ll have to manage her own disappointment on the other end. It’s not YOUR responsibility. Let her handle it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Too late. I had already called her. It effects both of our schedules so I talked to her on the phone and asked how her day was going. Listened to everything she had to say and then just merely asked if she had a chance to get on the internet yet. She said she did not have a chance yet and was going to in a little bit. I said, good, you can get back to me and I'll go ahead and get it all booked for you. She said, you know the basci things that I like, you could just go ahead and book them for me. Me thinking to myself {ARE YOU CRAZY? YOU DO NOT LIKE ANYONE EVEN BUYING YOU CLOTHES AND YOU WANT ME TO PICK SPA THINGS SUCH AS A TYPE OF FACIAL OR PEDICURE OR WRAP FOR YOU. HELL NO! I AM NOT FALLING FOR THIS ONE}. I said, " I do not feel comfortable with doing this because I do not know if you feel like a pedicure or whatever. There are just too many things for me to pick from and I feel it is unfair of me to be put into a the situation of deciding what you want for you. She said ok, she will get back to me. I mean, really, whats going on here? I am bringing the woman on a hell of a nice vacation with a very nice spa and she can't even be bothere to look at the services and decide what/if she want anything. What's that all about? Then to tell me to pick things for her?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Fair enough. Focus on the part about being happy and having your needs met. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds good.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It is very possible that, as things improve in general, that part of your relationship will also improve. Have we discussed fairness in marriage? Things aren’t always fair or what we expect. I think that things will go more smoothly if you manage your expectations and NOT expect SF to improve in the short term. At some point it does need to be addressed. If it’s better by then that’s great. If not, take care of it when the time comes.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Agreed.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Is it possible she’s just as perplexed by your reaction as you are by hers? After all, she hears you joke about it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, no. I have never told her that this bothers me. I just am speechless and hurt when she does it. Can you imagine, a guy going almost a year without to have your W say something like this? I can understand her point about my joking, even though it is ok for others around her to joke like this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What do you think would happen if, instead of your usual response you paused and said “Oh, would you like me to stop?” Then stop or continue based on her answer. But, not completely eliminate the behavior. The next time, you feel like doing <whatever>, do it unless she asks you to stop. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Laughs! I like your suggestion. The answer is I do not know what would happen, but it would be funny. Now that you have suggested this, I do not know if I would be able to do this with a straight face. I will try this and let you know.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I’m lost then. I thought that you, your wife, and your MC discussed non-sexual touch (cuddling) at your last session and had an agreement. Is that true? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We discussed it at our last MC session. The MC asked my W to list a couple of touches she would like to do that would not be allowed to move towards sex. My W could not come up with any and the MC told her she did not have to come up with them right then. So the subject got dropped. I want to bring it up again in the next MC session. We never reached an agreement. If we had, I never would have asked for SF last week because I would think this would be unfair after reaching a no - sex agreement.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don’t understand what you mean by circular. Can you explain? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Where we are not understanding or hearing each other and therefore keep repeating what each of us is saying in a slightly different way, hoping the other finally understands what we are trying to say. I think this actually stems from different desires for resolutions. For instance, for some things my W needs smaller levels of resolution than I do and vice versa. Does this explain it better, or not?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Awww… what a bleak picture that paints. I can understand why she would worry about it, that sounds like an uncomfortable scene. What was your response to that? If it were me, I’d have offered an agreement right then and there to not discuss SF while you are in bed together. (That’s almost always a good policy anyway.)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I kind of agree here. I would say that it is always a good policy to not have arguments period in bed. But, not discussing SF in bed is not practical when this is where it happens. I think I need to rework this agreement with you. Maybe to not argue about SF in bed, if/when a situation comes up in bed, we further agree to agree on the next available time to discuss things in a logical and respectful manner with rules to protect each other.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> There isn’t anything wrong with romance and it can be a very nice thing to do. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks. I agree.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It also was not a far emotional leap for her to think that the end of the evening would lead to a sexual situation. A romantic dinner, champagne, sitting on a blanket in front of a fire, a gift of jewelry? If this had been a T.V. show, the next scene would have been showing the couple in the sheets, you know. Left in a vacuum of information, her fear won out. I have mentioned that people tend to fear what they consider to be the worst case scenario. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is fair enough. It certainly would not be a sitcom.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, I don’t think she was concerned about you forcing yourself on her. I do believe that she was worried about disappointing you. Remember her comment in the MC office? ” During the last MC session however, my W did say that she feels like she is always waiting for the big sex argument to come up in bed.” That sounds to me like she’s worried about it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds to me like she is worried about the irritation of having another argument about not having sex. I do not take this as her upset about dissapointing me as much as I do her worried about being irritated because she might loose a little sleep over an argument running past her bed time. I know this was a disrespectful judgment and I am sorry for this, but this is my perception based off how she acts about this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Intimate for the wrong reasons? What would be a “wrong reason?”
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The wrong reasons would be having sex because you do not want to dissapoint someone. You should have sex because you want and desire that person, because you are in love with that person.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Go back up and read your statement about not believing she’s stressed about not disappointing you. Extremely Lost, do I have to beat you over the head with this? She said she’s worried about disappointing you DURING an intimate moment. Why on earth would she make something like that up? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not think she made this up. In fact, I truly believe her. This is why I asked the question about making love for the wrong reasons.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don’t know that you’re reading “too much” into it at all. But I do wonder if you’re reading the “wrong things” into it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a bit vague.

Thanks for all your comments.

Best Wishes,

EL

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Why should I believe that when we go on a trip and I am left to plan all of the major parts for all our real vacations, that she is absolutely happy and content with every choice I make? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because she said it “sounds good?”

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do you see where I am coming from? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I think I do. Are you looking for a little more appreciation from her as an indication that she’s interested? If she simply ACTED positively enthralled with everything would you concern yourself so much about the planning?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thanks. You still think I should not do the letter even though I was vague, like you just warned me not to be? What is the greater risk, the vagueness or the bringing it up again? I really do not know the answer to this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it would be worse to keep bringing it up. She doesn’t like circular arguments which you defined as repeating the same thing. I think you did a fine job. Yes, it’s a bit vague but I think it will work.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I said, " I do not feel comfortable with doing this because I do not know if you feel like a pedicure or whatever. There are just too many things for me to pick from and I feel it is unfair of me to be put into a the situation of deciding what you want for you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Heh. Nice response and very, very wise decision.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She said ok, she will get back to me. I mean, really, whats going on here? I am bringing the woman on a hell of a nice vacation with a very nice spa and she can't even be bothere to look at the services and decide what/if she want anything. What's that all about? Then to tell me to pick things for her? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have got me on this one. I have no clue.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Actually, no. I have never told her that this bothers me. I just am speechless and hurt when she does it. Can you imagine, a guy going almost a year without to have your W say something like this? I can understand her point about my joking, even though it is ok for others around her to joke like this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh. I see. Well, if you never mentioned it bothers you, there’s no realistic way to expect she knows that. I suppose it would depend on what and how it was said. What do you do when this happens?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Laughs! I like your suggestion. The answer is I do not know what would happen, but it would be funny. Now that you have suggested this, I do not know if I would be able to do this with a straight face. I will try this and let you know. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok. I’m unsure why this is funny to you. When you do it, do it in a very calm, nonchalant kind of way. Ask genuinely and try not to sound irritated or annoyed. Make your tone sound as if you were asking someone the time of day.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We discussed it at our last MC session. The MC asked my W to list a couple of touches she would like to do that would not be allowed to move towards sex. My W could not come up with any and the MC told her she did not have to come up with them right then. So the subject got dropped. I want to bring it up again in the next MC session. We never reached an agreement. If we had, I never would have asked for SF last week because I would think this would be unfair after reaching a no - sex agreement. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Eh? I never thought it was a no-sex agreement. I just thought it was a way to find some sort of touching that could be done without ever leading to the expectation of SF. I didn’t take it as eliminating everything else. Is that what you were all agreeing on?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Where we are not understanding or hearing each other and therefore keep repeating what each of us is saying in a slightly different way, hoping the other finally understands what we are trying to say. I think this actually stems from different desires for resolutions. For instance, for some things my W needs smaller levels of resolution than I do and vice versa. Does this explain it better, or not? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Uhm. No, not actually. It’s about as clear as mud. I was with you through the repeating part but you lost me at the different resolution part. Perhaps you can elaborate on what you meant by that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Maybe to not argue about SF in bed, if/when a situation comes up in bed, we further agree to agree on the next available time to discuss things in a logical and respectful manner with rules to protect each other. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah yes, good thinking. That is a MUCH better way of framing that. Very nice job.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Sounds to me like she is worried about the irritation of having another argument about not having sex. I do not take this as her upset about dissapointing me as much as I do her worried about being irritated because she might loose a little sleep over an argument running past her bed time. I know this was a disrespectful judgment and I am sorry for this, but this is my perception based off how she acts about this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fair enough. Let’s agree to disagree on this then.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The wrong reasons would be having sex because you do not want to dissapoint someone. You should have sex because you want and desire that person, because you are in love with that person. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Extremely Lost, I am going to ask you to take a leap of faith here and assume that your wife did not have SF with you for the wrong reasons. We can’t know for certain, of course. And, it’s a VERY bad idea to ask. So, what good will it do to you, her, or your marriage for you to assume anything else? It was a special night for both of you. Don’t allow yourself to be convinced that it was tainted in some way.

If you want to know my honest opinion, I truly believe that your wife wanted to have sex with you for all the right reasons in the world. I really mean that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do not think she made this up. In fact, I truly believe her. This is why I asked the question about making love for the wrong reasons. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think your wife loves you and wants very much to see you happy. I think that she has insecurities about being able to do that, much like your insecurities about choosing the right vacation choices. At an intimate moment, she expressed that to you. It’s news you can use, my friend. It verifies to me that she is probably seeking a little more Admiration from you. What are some ways you can provide that?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> quote:

I don’t know that you’re reading “too much” into it at all. But I do wonder if you’re reading the “wrong things” into it.

This is a bit vague. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What?! Me? Vague? Perish the thought.

What I mean is what I said above about assuming she did it for all the right reasons. Don’t allow your negative self talk to turn a silk purse into a sow’s ear. Take the bullets out of the gun and put it down, please. Is that clearer?

Mys

LFC,

Thanks so much for your input. I consider your input and POV extremely valuable as it does seem that you are going through what my W is going through. I would very much love to bounce some things off you to get a better understanding of where my W may be coming from. I am also getting some good advice from mineownself, myschae, myalias and baba2. I feel confident that with all of your help I can eventually understand my W a lot better and be able to be the husband she diserves and we can have afulfilled marriage. Maybe in turn, I can offer you some input into your H's pysche. Thanks for chiming in.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 1) The dinner out. Ok - that would have freaked me out. The part that would have gotten me worried is that part where you say "the evening's not over yet" without providing details. I am very hesistant around my H. We are walking on eggshells because of past hurts. So we try to be careful around each other and are intentional about our behavior. The last thing I would want is to be in a date, that may have expectations attached, and then to find out that there are "exciting suprises" ahead that I have no control over. Freak out! My mind would be racing... "he couldn't possibly be talking about sex? BUt what if he is? What if he feels that this romantic setup is warming me up to the idea nd he might make a move?" Ack! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Could you please explain to me why exactly you would feel "Ack!" about your husband being romantic and "making a move?" Is it purely the pressure of it all? Has SF become such a bigg issue that it has grown larger than the physical part just because of disagreements, disappointments and pressures?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Not saying that was your intention - but suprises are probably scary for your W right now because she doesn't want to be in a situation where she has to turn you down or dissapoint you.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If this is the case, why can't she tell me that she is worried about turning me down or dissapointing me. By her not EVER telling me this, I am left to [censored]-U-ME that she has not interest in SF and is not interested or attracted to me. The next leap of thinking is that she does not love me anymore and is taking me for granted and is using me. The next thought step is that since she is using me, she will not really be bothered about being with a different guy. You see how these thoughts could simply be avoided through open communication? Unfortunately, as Myschae said, people, when left to fill in the blanks, will fill in the blanks with negative thinking. What I really do not understand is that if she feels this way, why would she not simply say this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is why telling her you aren't expecting sex on your vacation is great. Hopefully she will be more relaxed without the (maybe unreasonable) anticipation of dissapointing you hanging over her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope you are right. I know she really is interested in wines and has not had a chance to do something like this yet. It could be very fun for the both of us. I really hope she will be able to relax and enjoy herself. At the same time, I hope she is relaxed enough to let down her guard and be a little affectionate with me and grow a little closer on this vacation as well. (HA - Myschae & Mineownself - I bet you thought I was going to say: At the same time, I hope she is relaxed enough to have SF.) See, I'm learning from you guys. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 2) The helping with stuff... My H is very in to this. and it gets very hard for me. I am a pretty independent person. i like to do things that I have said I will do. It makes me uncomfortable to have someone else do things for me that I feel are my responsibility. Especially since I am hesistant around my H and don't like feeling "indebted" to him right now. I get that you do not necessarily intend it this way - but helping when help has been kindly refused feels (to me) controlling and paternalistic. It makes me very uneasy. As though I will somehow have to "pay" for that nicety later. so my suggestion for you is to do what Mys said - offer to help, do helping things, but if she asks you to stop - stop. You are trying to be kind, which is great, but you don't want to then negate that by steamrolling over her protestations. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This makes sense. I guess she is also probably confused about how she really feels sometimes because she got made at me for not emptying the dishwasher and not doing all the dishes. Then I start to empty the dishwasher and do all the dishes all the next week. During this week she tells me, "you do'nt have to do that. You make me feel guilty when you do that." You can see where the mixed messages cause trouble for me. As I am told to be consistent with my W, I also need her to be consistent with me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you feel you should be helping more, then initiate a conversation where you express that you'd like to take more responsibility around the house (or whatever the helping behaviors focus on) and then ask her what things would be helpful, or offer to do things that are enjoyable for you, or that you know she would like you to do. Get her agreement first, then do them regularly.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We should probably try to do this again. Good suggestion.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 3) The vacation. my H likes planning vacations. I like helping, but often i can't meet his expectations of planning style. It stresses me out to try and be as organized as him. And I am pretty free flowing - so a vacation that is super scheduled is actually stressful to me. That being said, your wife is not helping you out here. But it's your job to Respect Her and take her at her word. If she doens't give input, decide for yourself and run it by her. If you think spa would be fun for her - give her the info, let her manage it, and then let her also manage her emotions from the outcome (dissapointment or excitement about it). but don't pester. she's a grownup - give her the info she needs and let it be.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am totally a laid back person when it comes to this. I could drive to the airport, pick out a location and get a ticket and go from there. This would drive my W bonkers. Therefore, I try to make the vacation more planned for her. Unfortunately, she rarely will help me plan the vacations, even when it is something specific for her, like the spa. Again, she has to plan, down to the hour, what she is doing on her trips home to see family. This is again where I need consistency.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> One final thought. I have thought a lot about this stuff with my H right now - so this is coming out of my POV. If you don't feel it applies - disregard it. Because of that - I'll post in terms of my M. Think about if it fits your M right now.

I think my H and I are engaged in a power struggle. I think that defines everything we are doing. I have felt controlled by him in the past and am learning to set boundaries. Because of that - I am hypervigilant about feeling controlled - or as though H has power over me.

H probably feels the same way. H has said that I feel "strong and cold" to him now. As though he has no influence over me. And it is hard for him. H is trying to imporve himself - and he desperately wants things to be better between us (I think). but he is thinking in terms of power still. He wants to make me see his changes. He wants to "help" me experience the difference. He is forcing this new and improved M on me.

I'm not ready for that. I want to "discover" the new M over time as I see it working itself into all our interactions. I need to see it lived out - not "demonstrated" as if a powerpoint presentation could convince me to tear down my defensive walls.

And as long as H pushes - I will feel the need to defend. It's a power struggle.

Which is not what I want my M to be. But I am at the point where I am reluctant to give up my newly acquired power over myself - and a lot of it I think i need to keep as it is healthy. But H perceives this power that I hold, as a loss of power to himself - and as destructive to the M.

So what do we do about it? I am working on trying to be flexible and reasonable with my defenses.

What would I like H to do? I would like him to put down his weapons. To show me that I can be safe letting down my defensives by showing me it's not about power anymore - it's about sharing.

That would look like: accepting my words when I kindly refuse help or share my feelings and pov, showing wiht his actions that he trusts me to make the right decisions for myself (not having an "I know what's best for you" attitude) about work, recreation, whatever - and supporting me in those decisions. Lots of things like that - I can give you more if you want.

Do you think you and your wife are in a power struggle? It sounds like it to me. What can you do to change that? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We are definitely in a power struggle situation at times. I can relate to this situation. One question I have is, would it be helping matters if I knew my W was wrong on something, say directions, yet she was adamant about my taking the wrong road, so I take the wrong road to please her? Sometimes I am faced with this dilema. I do not know the right approach to take. Sometimes I do not give in, when I know I am right because I do not want to take the wrong road. This escalates into her being upset with me because I did not listen to her (even if we do not verbally continue an argument). So what is the proper way to handle this knowing that we are both in a power struggle, but I am trying to end the power struggle because I want to share instead?

Thanks for your input. Please keep offering advice from the woman's perspective.

Thank you very much. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

EL