Hi EL. I'm glad to help out. I'm going to get to the part where I respond to your comments..

but first... I struggle with the tone youuse when you write about this. And I think that I can maybe see how communication could become difficult with your wife. Now, she is not an innocent party - and I would have things to say to her were she here... but since you are here... I thought I'd say. I'll try and point out what I mean as I go through your comments. I don't mean to do this to attack or anything like that - so please don't take it that way. I am, again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> , just trying to give you a different point of view that might be similar to your w's pov.

ok...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Could you please explain to me why exactly you would feel "Ack!" about your husband being romantic and "making a move?" Is it purely the pressure of it all? Has SF become such a bigg issue that it has grown larger than the physical part just because of disagreements, disappointments and pressures?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We are not having SF right now. I am not comfortable with it. I know my H wants it. But there are issues in our M that we are working on... that I feel are prerequisite to having SF. I see us having SF again after a lot of work, discussions about it, and a mutual agreement between us to build up to it again in a specified way. To "jump into it", for me right now, would be very stressful and probably traumatic. That being said, if my H demonstrated repeatedly that it is very very important to him... I might relent against my better judgement and have SF because I care about him and don't like to see him hurting. What that means is that my H would have convinced me that his hurt about not getting it is more important than my hurt about our M and our past, so I would willingly choose to do it for him - out of love. But that would mean I bench my taker and the sacrafice might not be worth it emotionally given wehre we are - make sense? It's a stressful place to be in, witholding when you know your H wants it, but having your own reasons for doing so. I have a hyperactive Giver - and it's hard on me to knowingly do this - thus the stress.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If this is the case, why can't she tell me that she is worried about turning me down or dissapointing me. By her not EVER telling me this, I am left to [censored]-U-ME that she has not interest in SF and is not interested or attracted to me. The next leap of thinking is that she does not love me anymore and is taking me for granted and is using me. The next thought step is that since she is using me, she will not really be bothered about being with a different guy. You see how these thoughts could simply be avoided through open communication? Unfortunately, as Myschae said, people, when left to fill in the blanks, will fill in the blanks with negative thinking. What I really do not understand is that if she feels this way, why would she not simply say this.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ok. two comments. First. I know it's hard to convey tone in writing. But this comes off as defensively attacking towards your wife and a tad bit disrespectful. I think you both are struggling to communicate in healthy ways. But this response carries no flavor of emapthy for her struggle. Maybe you are beyond being able to empathize with her, but if that's the case then you are in a drastic place. But if you are still interested in considering her needs and feelings, this does not represent that sense (to me). Second - I thought I read where she did say she's worried about dissapointing you? It sounds like she knows (how could she not) that you want SF and does feel bad about it. But that her need to not have SF (for whatever reason) is larger to her. Now - she might be willing to put that down for a while, or be caught up in a moment where she does feel safe having SF (like your last time) - but overall it sounds like your wife is feeling those things - and has told you as much. It's time for you to listen and take her at her word.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This makes sense. I guess she is also probably confused about how she really feels sometimes because she got made at me for not emptying the dishwasher and not doing all the dishes. Then I start to empty the dishwasher and do all the dishes all the next week. During this week she tells me, "you do'nt have to do that. You make me feel guilty when you do that." You can see where the mixed messages cause trouble for me. As I am told to be consistent with my W, I also need her to be consistent with me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again. This sounds defensive. You are both contributing to communication wierdness. Sit down and divide some chores... and then do them consistently.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am totally a laid back person when it comes to this. I could drive to the airport, pick out a location and get a ticket and go from there. This would drive my W bonkers. Therefore, I try to make the vacation more planned for her. Unfortunately, she rarely will help me plan the vacations, even when it is something specific for her, like the spa. Again, she has to plan, down to the hour, what she is doing on her trips home to see family. This is again where I need consistency. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Communication <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Communication <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Communication <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> We have a theme here. It is kind of you to plan vacations. She should be appreciative and help out. But you can change this dance on your side. Listen to what she says and respect it. Soon enough she will realize what she says is important and maybe she will be a little more intentional. I don't think it's a matter of consistency - maybe your W sees "vacations" as different from "family" or other trips - and has different preferences. It's all about communication here. You need to offer the chance to participate in a friendly and not forceful way. Give her the option... then act upon her response or lack of by following or choosing what you prefer.

Whatever you do - quit assuming you know what your wife is feeling, or will like or not like, or wanting. This is a DJ - even if youa re doing it to be nice. Maybe try an experiment: pretend your W is a stranger and you are getting to know her all over again. Allow the room to change her preferences from what you've known all this time. Talk to her about it. Not is a "I give up - I just don't know what you want" kind of way... but in an earnest " I want to hear and understand you better" kind of way. Make sense?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We are definitely in a power struggle situation at times. I can relate to this situation. One question I have is, would it be helping matters if I knew my W was wrong on something, say directions, yet she was adamant about my taking the wrong road, so I take the wrong road to please her? Sometimes I am faced with this dilema. I do not know the right approach to take. Sometimes I do not give in, when I know I am right because I do not want to take the wrong road. This escalates into her being upset with me because I did not listen to her (even if we do not verbally continue an argument). So what is the proper way to handle this knowing that we are both in a power struggle, but I am trying to end the power struggle because I want to share instead?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This exact scenario has played out in my M. And differnet versions of it. The part that gets me, and probably gets your wife too, is this:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Sometimes I do not give in, when I know I am right </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sure your W thought she was equally right. In this case, yes, every once in a while, you should be open to the possibility that your wife is right and you are not. And listen to her, and take the "other road" - which may or may not be the "right" one.

The point is - your wife has opinions too. And they are equally important, whether they are "right" or not. Listen to them sometimes. I'm not saying always do what she says - but be open to the possibility that she might be right. And if she is - accept it humbly. If she is wrong - accept it humbly . Make it possible for each of you to feel safe in being wrong. Take the power out of it.

i.e.

EL: I think we are supposed to go this way....

ELW: Oh? I thought we are supposed to go this way?

?EL: Oh. Well - let's try that...

*drive down road and discover it is not that right one*
EL: oh. I guess it must be the other way. (unconcerned voice) hm. ok. well this was a nice scenis route anyway

ELW: *feels heard and respected. doesn't feel ridiculed for being wrong* feels safe... and thus free to say: "yeah honey, you were right! *laugh*"


*or even accept that she might be right and say "oh? You think it's that way? well I guess we need to try one so how about we go this way (and go the way you think is right)?" This should make her feel heard even though you went your way after all - if you do it consistently and give her ideas a chance every now and again too.*

Not a good example
EL: I think we are supposed to go this way....

ELW: Oh? I thought we are supposed to go this way?

EL: No. I know it's this way.

ELW: But I could have sworn it's this way.

EL: *goes his way*

ELW: *feels ignored* "why don't you listen to me?

EL: *feels frustrated and attacked becasue it is actually the right way*

*angst all around*

One of you has to take the power out of it. Since you're here... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

That means refusing to "take power" when you are right by humbly accepting what happened and continuing to value her. And by refusing to "give power" by being unconcerend about when you'r wrond in such a way as to dampen her ability to take power from you. Make sense?

I hope this helps...

lfc

Hello everyone,

Well, I just got back from the MC session. I'll give you a little background from last night. Last night was my birthday. I got home to find my W in the kitchen and she immediately said happy b-day. Then she said, would you like me to make you dinner or go out? I said left overs were fine. We had left overs and then her and my S gave me my birthday present. Now, as I said earlier, I am not big on getting presents, but I love to give them. However, if someone close to me, such as my W, gives me a present, I would expect it to be something thoughtful and something I would like. She got me a pillow. Now, I am not trying to be ungrateful here, but what the F___? This was a total downer for me. This is something we would normally just go and buy. I mean this last weekend her and her sister went clothes shopping on Saturday and my W bought herself over $400.00 worth of clothes? However, my W and S made me a homemade B-day cake wich I thouroughly enjoyed that my S helped make most of it and I was very appreciative of this. He was so proud of this accomplishment for daddy.

Then last night, I tried to discuss our upcomming MC session with my W because I did not want her to feel attacked in the MC session. So I asked her if she had come up with some affectionate touches she would like that she could understand would not lead to anything more. She got a sour look on her face and said that she did not realize she HAD to come up with these touches for today. She did not know she was on a time frame. I let it go for tomorrow.

This morning the MC session started off with a discussion about our upcoming vacation and this lead into my saying, "I was confused about how my W is a planner and generally plans everything, but when it comes to our vacations she does not really give input into the planning." I also said, "It would make me happy if my W would split the planning. By her not being involved in the planning of our trips, it makes me feel as though she is not really interested in the trip. I know she may not really feel this way, but it is how it makes me feel. I also said that I feel a great amount of pressure from planning the vacations without my W's input because I have traveled quite a bit and she has not. Therefore, I look at our vacations as more for her to experience things, which gives me enjoyment and pleasure to participate in her enjoyment. I am concerned that if we do something she does not like, she will, out of trying to be kind, not really mention how she feels." My W said, "I do not get involved in the planning of our vacations because I know you do a great job and are more particular about certain parts of the trip. I plan the trips up to our families because there is usually an event happening, like a wedding, and we have to be at certain places at certain times." The MC said the problem is my own insecurities and not trusting what my W is saying. I said, "fine, I can accept this, but why is it unreasonable for my W to participate sometimes and make me happy as well?" They both basically said because my W is fine with my planning and will let me know when she is not. I felt this was a cop-out. But agreed to let it go because I felt we were spending too much time on what I felt was a small issue. I wanted to move onto what I felt was a bigger issue. I started off with some background on how I realized I screwed up on our anniversary and put my W in a situation that caused her to put enormous pressure on herself. My W then wanted to go through all the details of the anniversary again (trying to "defend" herself). I said there is no reason to defend yourself because I accept that I made a mistake not caring about your feelings and putting you into that situation. She did not accept this and said she wanted to finish. So she painfully recapped the entire evening again. After that I said fine, but my point is that I was concerned with putting her through this again and therefore, have mentioned up front that there are no sexual expectations on my part with regards to this upcomming trip. I would like for this trip to be something that we relax and enjoy eachother's company. {This is where I pull the gun out}. Then I said, "I would like us to be able to try and be affectionate with eachother through some physical touches that will not lead to SF so that we can feel closer to each other and my W can see that she can feel safe and comfortable with doing this again." Blammo! My W got upset and said that now I have put pressure on her to be affectionate because I have decided on a time table. She said that she needed to do these things on her own time, when she felt comfortable and has learned over the last four years that these touches and affection had never been good enough for me before. I said, "I have been working very hard on changing things to help create an enviornment where you would feel comfortable and safe. If you do not do any affectionate touching, you will never see that these things are "good enough" for me." She said, "I need to not feel pressured and now she feels a bunch of pressure for this trip." I said, "I am sorry, and that I apologize because I did not get the time to say what I really wanted to say in the way I wanted to say it to not put pressure on you. I just wanted to let you know that you did not have to worry about things "not being good enough for me" any more." Then I said, "I am being asked to take you at your word. Could you please take me at my word and believe that there is no need for pressure on this trip and that I will be fine if we do not have any physical touch as long as we have a great time relaxing and enjoying each others company." She said, "You can't do that." I said, "please give me a chance to show you that I can." We then left the MC and in the parking lot we usually kissed and hugged goodbye. I started to walk away and say goodbye and have a great day. My W said, "you usually give me a kiss!" I said, " I do not know what to do anymore. This is really hard for me and I do not want to do anything that puts more pressure on you." I gave her a hug and a kiss and said have a good day.

Now that the update is done, and I am sure I will get a couple of lumps from this one, I will try and answer your questions.

Myschae - Thanks for responding so quickly. I had to run last night without responding back.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes, I think I do. Are you looking for a little more appreciation from her as an indication that she’s interested? If she simply ACTED positively enthralled with everything would you concern yourself so much about the planning? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would not call it appreciation as much as I would more interest in some of the major details, such as what hotel we stay in. You are correct, if she acted positively enthralled I would not be as concerned about the planning.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You have got me on this one. I have no clue. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Apparently, she is not that enthusiastic about spending a bunch of time in the spa. In fact she now says she would like to get a massage, pedicure, facial and manicure all at the same time because she does not want to have to worry about making a spa appointment during the three days we have to relax. I can see her point. She also said she is not too worried about advanced booking because she thinks you can always get in. This is most likely not the case with where we are going, especially since the hotel has already told me it is hard to get in and it is their busy season.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Oh. I see. Well, if you never mentioned it bothers you, there’s no realistic way to expect she knows that. I suppose it would depend on what and how it was said. What do you do when this happens? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I kind of just shut down for a couple of minutes in disbelief.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ok. I’m unsure why this is funny to you. When you do it, do it in a very calm, nonchalant kind of way. Ask genuinely and try not to sound irritated or annoyed. Make your tone sound as if you were asking someone the time of day. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It was funny because it will be out of the norm and I know she will not be expecting it. I did this last night. I started doing the dishes because she went outside right after dinner. She came in and said, "stop doing that, you do not have to do that it is your B-day!" I just stopped doing the dishes and she did them, although she did not do the dishes from the cake and they were still not done this morning, which bothers me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Eh? I never thought it was a no-sex agreement. I just thought it was a way to find some sort of touching that could be done without ever leading to the expectation of SF. I didn’t take it as eliminating everything else. Is that what you were all agreeing on?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess this is a difference in semantics and I felt this is all the same thing. I get your subtle point about exact words. I have asid that I have no expectations of any sexual relations on this trip. Now I have also said I have no expectations of any affection on this trip. Starting to sound like a really great trip - eh?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Uhm. No, not actually. It’s about as clear as mud. I was with you through the repeating part but you lost me at the different resolution part. Perhaps you can elaborate on what you meant by that.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I meant that when we have conflicts, depending on what the conflict is about, my W or I may be satisfied with a simple resolution, where as the other may not be satisfied with the "simple" solution. However, when my W reaches this "satisfied" point, the conflict is over and solved in her mind which leaves me unsatisfied.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Extremely Lost, I am going to ask you to take a leap of faith here and assume that your wife did not have SF with you for the wrong reasons. We can’t know for certain, of course. And, it’s a VERY bad idea to ask. So, what good will it do to you, her, or your marriage for you to assume anything else? It was a special night for both of you. Don’t allow yourself to be convinced that it was tainted in some way.

If you want to know my honest opinion, I truly believe that your wife wanted to have sex with you for all the right reasons in the world. I really mean that. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK. Thanks. The wierd thing for me is that we have just had this moment last week and now we are setting up these rules to not have sex or affection. It feels like a step backwards to me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think your wife loves you and wants very much to see you happy. I think that she has insecurities about being able to do that, much like your insecurities about choosing the right vacation choices. At an intimate moment, she expressed that to you. It’s news you can use, my friend. It verifies to me that she is probably seeking a little more Admiration from you. What are some ways you can provide that?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you are right. I try to express admiration to her. I do this by complimenting her on things that she does. For instance, when she makes dinner, I always say thank you for the nice dinner and tell her how good it was. I try to tell her how something looks good in the yard that she has done. I thanked her for the very nice evening the next morning. I compliment her in front of neighbors etc..

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What I mean is what I said above about assuming she did it for all the right reasons. Don’t allow your negative self talk to turn a silk purse into a sow’s ear. Take the bullets out of the gun and put it down, please. Is that clearer?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I really wish I fully understand how to take those bullets out. Hopefully with a little more wood up side the head from you guys, I can.

How is the moving going? Are you done yet? Thanks for the replies.

LFC - Thanks for replying again. In combination with your post and Myschae's post it is scary how close you women actually are to what the MC and my W end up saying. This gives me the confidence to know that I really am going to benefit from your inputs.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> but first... I struggle with the tone youuse when you write about this. And I think that I can maybe see how communication could become difficult with your wife. Now, she is not an innocent party - and I would have things to say to her were she here... but since you are here... I thought I'd say. I'll try and point out what I mean as I go through your comments. I don't mean to do this to attack or anything like that - so please don't take it that way. I am, again , just trying to give you a different point of view that might be similar to your w's pov.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Understood. Thanks for your fair honesty.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We are not having SF right now. I am not comfortable with it. I know my H wants it. But there are issues in our M that we are working on... that I feel are prerequisite to having SF. I see us having SF again after a lot of work, discussions about it, and a mutual agreement between us to build up to it again in a specified way. To "jump into it", for me right now, would be very stressful and probably traumatic. That being said, if my H demonstrated repeatedly that it is very very important to him... I might relent against my better judgement and have SF because I care about him and don't like to see him hurting. What that means is that my H would have convinced me that his hurt about not getting it is more important than my hurt about our M and our past, so I would willingly choose to do it for him - out of love. But that would mean I bench my taker and the sacrafice might not be worth it emotionally given wehre we are - make sense? It's a stressful place to be in, witholding when you know your H wants it, but having your own reasons for doing so. I have a hyperactive Giver - and it's hard on me to knowingly do this - thus the stress. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK. I can understand what you are saying, but you said something that is key here. You actually said, "I see us having SF again..." This is a very important thing that my W does not say. In fact, she says the opposite during an argument. She has said,"SF is not importnant to me...SF is not really a part of M...I do not need SF..." All of these things have some kind of conotation of finality attached to it. Like I am done. This M will not have a healthy amount of SF in it and therefore, this M will not last. The duality here is that women need the emotional side to be good before they are fine with SF, and guys need the SF for the emotional side to be good. What makes us guys any less right than the women? Why do you say how difficult it is knowing that your H desires SF, but you conciously must hold back? When you say you must curb you taker to give into your H once in a while out of love. What about his taker being curbed for the majority of the time? What about his emotional state based upon his taker being curbed the majority of the time. Who's emotional state is warranted as "more important" and therefore, the other must suffer the majority of the time? I know life, marriage and pretty much everything else in life is not fair, but this is rediculous. Yes, I understand that it is your bodies. I will not argue this. But, why is it any more traumatic for the W because of not having 100% emotional connection present, than the H who constantly is rejected (just laying there not asking for SF because he knows it will cause more problems is still a rejection and is just as harsh as him asking and you saying no) and thereby withdrawing to be safe? I do not understand why it is always ok for the woman to hold off the physical side and have society accept this, but when the man speaks up and says hey, I am tired of not having the physical side, people are like "tough, poor W." I am not trying to attack you here, please do not take this as an attack. I am just trying to understand. Believe me that I would like to know how you feel on this because it is the same thing I wish my W would respectfully answer.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ok. two comments. First. I know it's hard to convey tone in writing. But this comes off as defensively attacking towards your wife and a tad bit disrespectful. I think you both are struggling to communicate in healthy ways. But this response carries no flavor of emapthy for her struggle. Maybe you are beyond being able to empathize with her, but if that's the case then you are in a drastic place. But if you are still interested in considering her needs and feelings, this does not represent that sense (to me). Second - I thought I read where she did say she's worried about dissapointing you? It sounds like she knows (how could she not) that you want SF and does feel bad about it. But that her need to not have SF (for whatever reason) is larger to her. Now - she might be willing to put that down for a while, or be caught up in a moment where she does feel safe having SF (like your last time) - but overall it sounds like your wife is feeling those things - and has told you as much. It's time for you to listen and take her at her word.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, you are very right here. However, I still struggle with understanding that if a large amount of my W's issues are because she does not want to dissapoint me, then why doesn't she stop dissapointing me physically? I know this probably sounds harsh, but I feel it is a logical question. It goes along with the old addage "If it hurts when you pinch your arm, then do not pinch your arm." Why can it not be this simple? Is it because of all the emotional baggage built up on this SF subject over time? Did it all start at one defining moment where the future could have swung in two directions and I happened to make some small mistake that made my W feel less emotionally attached and then she decided to not participate in SF for the first time, which fueled my feelings of rejection and mistrust and then we ended up in progressively tearing our M down over four years. If this is the situation is it now at the point that the excess baggage of menutia that really has nothing to do with the real issues/problems has gotten too big or too heavy that we cannot get passed the crap?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Again. This sounds defensive. You are both contributing to communication wierdness. Sit down and divide some chores... and then do them consistently.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK. This sounds fine. But, I am working during the day and some weekends. My W needs help around the house because she is doing things she chooses and likes to do that takes away from getting the normal house things under control, such as landscaping and planting. I am not saying she is wrong for doing this, but it should not take precedence over the household or our S. The difference here is that if I did not have to work, I would gladly stopp doing it tomorrow. It is not by my choice. What she is doing is by her choice and this causes the housework to not get done. Sorry if my tone is not good again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Communication Communication Communication We have a theme here. It is kind of you to plan vacations. She should be appreciative and help out. But you can change this dance on your side. Listen to what she says and respect it. Soon enough she will realize what she says is important and maybe she will be a little more intentional. I don't think it's a matter of consistency - maybe your W sees "vacations" as different from "family" or other trips - and has different preferences. It's all about communication here. You need to offer the chance to participate in a friendly and not forceful way. Give her the option... then act upon her response or lack of by following or choosing what you prefer.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are way correct here. I explained it all at the top. This gives me confidence in that you and my W think a lot alike.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Whatever you do - quit assuming you know what your wife is feeling, or will like or not like, or wanting. This is a DJ - even if youa re doing it to be nice. Maybe try an experiment: pretend your W is a stranger and you are getting to know her all over again. Allow the room to change her preferences from what you've known all this time. Talk to her about it. Not is a "I give up - I just don't know what you want" kind of way... but in an earnest " I want to hear and understand you better" kind of way. Make sense?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Totally.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm sure your W thought she was equally right. In this case, yes, every once in a while, you should be open to the possibility that your wife is right and you are not. And listen to her, and take the "other road" - which may or may not be the "right" one.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have no problem being open to the fact that my W could be right on a number of things. I just meant, if I really new that I was right, should I still give into her to not argue? You answered that I should some of the time. This is fine. I do have a lot of respect for my W and understand that she "takes over" situations at times. I resent when she does this because it makes me feel worthless and incompitent. I also understand that I need to not interfer with her "taking over" some of the time. I do not need to be in control, even though I have been told my actions from the past tell her a different story.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> One of you has to take the power out of it. Since you're here...

That means refusing to "take power" when you are right by humbly accepting what happened and continuing to value her. And by refusing to "give power" by being unconcerend about when you'r wrond in such a way as to dampen her ability to take power from you. Make sense?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This makes sense.

LFC, in some of my answers to you, I have asked some pretty tough questions that probably due have a harsher tone than I mean them to have. I apologize for the tone. It is just because I am so passionate about this. I am trying to save my marriage. I would like to believe that we still have a chance for a great M. The questions I asked to you are things that I would not be able to get an answer from my W for. I really would appreciate your explanations to my questions. Please keep in mind that for some reason, when it comes to my M and my W, I feel like I have an IQ of about 24. For whatever reason, as you can probably pickup from poor Myschae and Mineownself's posts, I tend to need to have things spelled out for me, sometimes more than once. I am not normally like this and it is hard for me to admit this difficulty in understanding I am having. But please be patient with me. My desire to improve as a H and for the M is truly there. I get frustrated often because we are in a bad place right now, and I find that I lean on this post wuite a bit.

Thanks you guys,

EL

I double posted. Opps.

<small>[ August 10, 2004, 12:50 PM: Message edited by: Extremely Lost ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Extremely Lost:
<strong>I mean, really, whats going on here? I am bringing the woman on a hell of a nice vacation with a very nice spa and she can't even be bothere to look at the services and decide what/if she want anything. What's that all about?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My view: she doesn't care about the vacations nearly as much as you do. Hence she lets you plan them and she takes a passive role.

She doesn't care about the spa as much as you think she should.

When I read the words "hell of a nice" I hear "very expensive". Combine that with your astonishment at her lack of response, and I think you are setting yourself up for huge unmet expectations. Seems to me you are trying to makre a "grand gesture". Spending big bucks. And hoping it will make a substantial difference in your marriage. From your wife's reaction so far, I doubt that will happen.

It is probably too late to cancel the vacation. Or scale it back to the point that it isn't expensive. So you have to go through with it. That said, please scale back your expectations.

You shouldn't be doing this to score points with her. You shold be doing it because it is something you think you will enjoy. Something that you think is worth the money to you. And something that you will enjoy more if you get to share it with your wife. Regardless of whether you guys have sex. If that is why you are doing it, then it will be a success no matter how she reacts. If you are doing it to get a specific reaction out of her, you are overwhelmingly likely to be disappointed.

I get the distinct impression that this vacation is a train wreck waiting to happen. Bias alert: I have been on many of those, so my detector is very sensitive to expectations and spousal reactions. I may be reading into this more than what is really there.

But if what I said strikes a chord with you, then you either need to change your mindset or change your plans. Because if you drop a wad of cash on this vacation. Expecting to score points with your wife. And you don't get any points for it. The disappointment will infect your entire relationship long after the vacation ends.

EL - thanks for the thoughtful response... I'll see if I can clarify things and answer your questions...

I'm going to keep my comments to the ones we've addressed so far and what you brought up for me specifically...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My W said, "I do not get involved in the planning of our vacations because I know you do a great job and are more particular about certain parts of the trip. I plan the trips up to our families because there is usually an event happening, like a wedding, and we have to be at certain places at certain times." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds like she's willing to be free flowing about these type of vacations that don't include time sensitive family events. So I would suggest you take her at her word and plan away...let her take responsibility for her feelings and let her be in charge of telling you if she likes something or not.

Now, if the issue is that you would rather she help because you don't want to do some of it - then that's reasonable and that should be discussed. But don't frame it in terms of "what she'll prefer or like" because she has stated that the way it is is just fine with her. Do you see the difference? It is okay for you to ask her to help because you don't want to do some or whatever. If this is the case - allow her to do it in her way (like not making an appt. for the spa) and let her manage her emotions for the result.

About the affectionate touching/SF converstaion. It sounds like your wife isn't ready to believe that you are okay without SF (for now) yet. You can't force her to believe you. You can only continue to show her through actions. If I was your W, I would love ot hear something like

"I am always open to x, y, and z. But I respect that we are working up to these things being comfortable for each of us. So I am going to let you set the level and I will follow along without expectations for more. If you want to hug and kiss, feel free to initiate the first time and I will be happy to do that, and keep it at that level till you say, and nothing more unless you ask. I want you to feel comfortable and safe."

But that's me. Do you think your wife would listen to something like this and fel good about it? How do you feel about it?

About the hotel:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She also said she is not too worried about advanced booking because she thinks you can always get in. This is most likely not the case with where we are going, especially since the hotel has already told me it is hard to get in and it is their busy season. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think your strategy here could be to say in the beginning "ok, hon, here's the info on the spa if you want to do it. I don't mind booking things if you pick out what you want, but if you do want to do things, we should make appts because they said it fills up this time of year"

then she has all the info she needs to make a decision. And if she doesn't make an appt. (even though you said it would be required) then she is responsible for managing her dissapointment. If you did give her all the required info - then let it be. When she can't get in, don't say "i told you do" (Power Play). Just let her be dissapointed. She'll learn for next time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I started doing the dishes because she went outside right after dinner. She came in and said, "stop doing that, you do not have to do that it is your B-day!" I just stopped doing the dishes and she did them, although she did not do the dishes from the cake and they were still not done this morning, which bothers me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is exactly what should happen. You offer to help, she tells you no, you agree and stop doing it. The part about the plate being left out - is this a common occurence that you are disatisfied with how she keeps house? i see that you wrote this also - so I'll address this below...

About SF...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "I see us having SF again..." This is a very important thing that my W does not say. In fact, she says the opposite during an argument. She has said,"SF is not importnant to me...SF is not really a part of M...I do not need SF..." All of these things have some kind of conotation of finality attached to it. Like I am done. This M will not have a healthy amount of SF in it and therefore, this M will not last. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok. I fudged a little here. Honestly...right now... i don't see having sex with my H. But I also realize that our M will not last if that continues... and I'm not ready for it to end either, so I see our future M as containing SF. I am at a place where I would say much the same as what your wife has said. I do not need SF. In fact, I have gone my entire married life without "SF" for me, though my H has gotton his fill.

That being said... I recognize that it is important to my H. And so I would like to make progress in that area. But I see SF as the top of the ladder we have to climb, and we are still towards the bottom rungs.

You said: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The duality here is that women need the emotional side to be good before they are fine with SF, and guys need the SF for the emotional side to be good. What makes us guys any less right than the women? Why do you say how difficult it is knowing that your H desires SF, but you conciously must hold back? When you say you must curb you taker to give into your H once in a while out of love. What about his taker being curbed for the majority of the time? What about his emotional state based upon his taker being curbed the majority of the time. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes I must consciously hold back. Not because my libido is asking for it and I am stopping it. but because it is my giver that is wanting to give it. And we have gotten to this place in our M by me letting my giver have full reign and not engaging my taker. So I know it likely wouldn't be good for me emotionally right now to do it. I would probably put all the walls back up that I am so fiercly trying to bring down. It would be a backslide for me into withdrawal land - which for me is a souless existence where my Giver makes everyone else happy but me.

I hear your frustration. And I'm sorry for it. Just as I am sorry that this is hurtful to my H too.

I'm in no place to judge </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Who's emotional state is warranted as "more important" and therefore, the other must suffer the majority of the time </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">but I think this is an unproductive way to look at it. You should both be working towards everyone's needs being met. Win-Win. The way you present it is Win-Lose. Now Myshae is much better at instructing on how to do Win-Win (POJA) so I'll let her pick it up there... but I will say this...

The most healing thing my H could do is to understand that having SF right now would be detrimental to our eventual goal of a mutually fulfilling M (that includes SF). So if H can keep the ultimate goal in mind, and sacrifice the immediacy in order to achieve that - then I feel safe in working towards it. The immediate pressure is relieved. though I understand that a no-SF M is not a ggod place, and staying here is not an option. But I do see it as a necessary place en route to healing. Does that make sense?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do not understand why it is always ok for the woman to hold off the physical side and have society accept this, but when the man speaks up and says hey, I am tired of not having the physical side, people are like "tough, poor W." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am only here to present your W's maybe pov. Baba has been here to cheer for your side on this too. No one here is saying you have to permanently give up sex. In fact, no one here is begrudging you the right to be hurt about it. But we ARE trying to help you solve it. It is not fair for you to sacrifice your SF for her hurt. Nor is it right for her to sacrifice her EN for your hurt about SF. those are Lose-Win. But I think that we can both agree that "just doing it" is not going to solve the problem. And it just might break the emotional connection that you might be hoping to gain on your side through SF. it's a process. And this place is just temporary.

WARNING*****MY SIT. and it might have no similarity to yours******Warning

If my H was to ask for SF right now. And imply that his needs in that are greater than my need to heal. I just might give in. But I also might find myself hating myself AND HIM for it later. I don't think it's worth it for my H for a one time SF to have it result in a huge emotional block between us.

****end WARNING*****

Next.... This:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> However, I still struggle with understanding that if a large amount of my W's issues are because she does not want to dissapoint me, then why doesn't she stop dissapointing me physically? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sure her hoping to not "dissapoint you" is not the only issue. I hope that by reading what I posted above, you can see that it is likely more complicated than that. In order for her to struggle - there has to be two sides. On the one hand - she doesn't want to dissapoint you... on the other hand __________. What do you think it is? What has she told you? It could be that she doesn't feel romantic towards you because of love bank issues (you've alluded to her feeling disatisfied in the M). Is it because she truly doesn't like SF, or you have SF issues in the past? Whatever it is - it is important enough to her for her to struggle with the choice of dissapointing you or experienceing the hur of having SF given _________. Make sense? It's not cut and dry.
You say:
If it hurts to pinch your arm, just don't do it?
By which you mean:
If it hurts to dissapoint you, just don't do it - just have SF with you?

I'm sure your wife could say...

If it hurts to have SF right now because of _______, just don't do it.

But that's not getting anyone anywhere. You need to both be considerate of each other.

Now I'm sure you'll respond to this by telling me that your wife ISN'T being considerate. After all, she's not having SF. I'm not here to judge hat your wife is or isn't doing. Because that gets us nowhere. It sounds like the affection part is where you're at. So focus on what you can do to allow for your W to make progress on that. That's been discussed elsewhere and Mys has got that going on...

About the DS: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My W needs help around the house because she is doing things she chooses and likes to do that takes away from getting the normal house things under control, such as landscaping and planting. I am not saying she is wrong for doing this, but it should not take precedence over the household or our S. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You need to sit down and split the chores. Your wife had a full plate and so do you. Your wife should do a lot of DS, being the one at home. But she should also have the flexibility to do non-chore projects. And to even have some time for herself (as should you!)

The question is - is this so important to you right now that you want to make it one of the few issues you work on for now? Because you don't want to try and tackle everything at once. If not, continue on with offering to help, accepting a refusal, and taking care of the things that make you the most crazy (like if it was me... i would have taken care of the B-day plate when I saw it hadn't been done. Because running a house is a team effort. And I wouldn't have made it a power play - I wouldn't have made a big deal out of doing what someone else should have done).

And the Power Play stuff:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I just meant, if I really knew that I was right, should I still give into her to not argue? You answered that I should some of the time. This is fine. I do have a lot of respect for my W and understand that she "takes over" situations at times </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well.. I'm just saying that maybe your wife also "knew she was right". so you should accept the possibility that you may not be right. It's not a matter of " giving in " or taking over . These phrases tell me that it is all about Power for both of you. Someone is right and someone is wrong. You aren't playing on the same team when you focus on the Power aspects. When you describe your W holding to her opinion as "taking over" - it raises flags for me. I'm sure your wife would label you behavior in the same way.

I, personally, am uncomfortable with a relationship that has that as an aspect of it. I've handled this in my M by letting go of my opinion most of the time so that there wouldn't be a power struggle. But that still results in a lose, because H perceives it as a win. So my strategy now is to try and take the power out of it. To be humble when I am wrong, AND when I am right. And to allow H to learn that I'm not going to play that way. We'll see if it works...

So this was really long <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I hope it clarifies some things. I'm open to continuing this if you have more/differnet questions...

lfc

Extremely Lost

Greetings!

*strikes up the band*
Happy birthday to you!
Happy birthday to you!
Happy BIRTHDAY, Extremely Looosssstttt!
Happy birthday to you!

… and many happy returns… <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Then last night, I tried to discuss our upcomming MC session with my W because I did not want her to feel attacked in the MC session. So I asked her if she had come up with some affectionate touches she would like that she could understand would not lead to anything more. She got a sour look on her face and said that she did not realize she HAD to come up with these touches for today. She did not know she was on a time frame. I let it go for tomorrow. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmm….. What might have been a better approach would have been to ask her then about how much time she thought she’d need to think about it. Something like

“Oh! Well, somehow I had the impression it was going to come up again. I’d really appreciate some idea of when you think you’ll have an answer, just so that I’m not worrying about it.”

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This morning the MC session started off with a discussion about our upcoming vacation and this lead into my saying, "I was confused about how my W is a planner and generally plans everything, but when it comes to our vacations she does not really give input into the planning." I also said, "It would make me happy if my W would split the planning. By her not being involved in the planning of our trips, it makes me feel as though she is not really interested in the trip. I know she may not really feel this way, but it is how it makes me feel. I also said that I feel a great amount of pressure from planning the vacations without my W's input because I have traveled quite a bit and she has not. Therefore, I look at our vacations as more for her to experience things, which gives me enjoyment and pleasure to participate in her enjoyment. I am concerned that if we do something she does not like, she will, out of trying to be kind, not really mention how she feels." My W said, "I do not get involved in the planning of our vacations because I know you do a great job and are more particular about certain parts of the trip. I plan the trips up to our families because there is usually an event happening, like a wedding, and we have to be at certain places at certain times." The MC said the problem is my own insecurities and not trusting what my W is saying. I said, "fine, I can accept this, but why is it unreasonable for my W to participate sometimes and make me happy as well?" They both basically said because my W is fine with my planning and will let me know when she is not. I felt this was a cop-out. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Extremely Lost, I know.. I truly believe from the bottom of my heart that you are trying to be kind. But listen to what your words convey.

“ Therefore, I look at our vacations as more for her to experience things, which gives me enjoyment and pleasure to participate in her enjoyment.”

I think you meant that you want to see her happy. You enjoy seeing her happy. How these words come across, however, is that your enjoyment of the trip HINGES upon her being happy with it. And, not only that, she has to be happy with it in a way that you can tangibly experience. If I were your wife, I would be a nervous wreck right about now. Either that, or I’d withdraw. Turn off the pressure, Extremely Lost. Let your wife enjoy the vacation or not enjoy it as it comes. You know, if she doesn’t like it at all, it really doesn’t have to be a reflection on you. It might be that she learns she doesn’t like wine country because of the bees or she has allergies or she’d prefer the ocean but never would have known that. A big part of gaining experience involves learning what you DON’T like as well as what you DO like.

As for her being involved in the planning, it was a selfish demand. You wanted her to show interest in a way that was meaningful to you regardless of whether or not she was enthusiastic about it. If you wanted to use a POJA on this scenario, it would have involved finding some way for her to be enthusiastic about planning this trip with you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I wanted to move onto what I felt was a bigger issue. I started off with some background on how I realized I screwed up on our anniversary and put my W in a situation that caused her to put enormous pressure on herself. My W then wanted to go through all the details of the anniversary again (trying to "defend" herself). I said there is no reason to defend yourself because I accept that I made a mistake not caring about your feelings and putting you into that situation. She did not accept this and said she wanted to finish. So she painfully recapped the entire evening again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, listen to your words, Extremely Lost. ” put my W in a situation that caused her to put enormous pressure on herself” Of COURSE she wanted to defend herself. There is an inherent challenge in that statement. Take a step back for a moment and consider that your wife does NOT feel the pressure was internally motivated. Assigning that diagnosis to it is tantamount to issuing a challenge to her to explain why she felt pressured. Which, I’m sure she did at length. I hope you listened.

” I said there is no reason to defend yourself because I accept that I made a mistake not caring about your feelings and putting you into that situation.”

This statement is dismissive. Obviously, she felt she had a good reason to defend herself. Remember that you’re trying to build agreement with her. That means that she needs to feel SAFE that you will listen to her concerns and not dismiss them in favor of your own pre-judgments. You assumed this was not relevant to the conversation because YOU knew where you were going with it. She has not felt heard yet. Extremely Lost, please SLOW down a little. Just because you know where you want to take a conversation, doesn’t mean that you should drag your wife there unwillingly. Remember, you’re in a partnership. Good conversation requires two people to both give and take. If she’s not finished, let her TALK.

And for the sake of my future sanity, take a big, black, chalkboard eraser and ERASE the phrase “there is no reason for you to” from your vocabulary. Just obliterate it entirely. While you're in there, take out any other "versions" of it, too. Trust me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Then I said, "I would like us to be able to try and be affectionate with eachother through some physical touches that will not lead to SF so that we can feel closer to each other and my W can see that she can feel safe and comfortable with doing this again." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This may be where you pulled the trigger, but you loaded the gun and cocked it a little ways back. Again, it is not going to be effective for you to tell HER what will make HER feel more comfortable. She’s going to have to determine that for herself and tell YOU (once she figures it out). Can you see why?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My W said, "you usually give me a kiss!" I said, " I do not know what to do anymore. This is really hard for me and I do not want to do anything that puts more pressure on you." I gave her a hug and a kiss and said have a good day. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You did end it well, though. Good job there.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I would not call it appreciation as much as I would more interest in some of the major details, such as what hotel we stay in. You are correct, if she acted positively enthralled I would not be as concerned about the planning. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, time to practice empathy skills. Or, the art of pretending to be someone else…

So, take a look at it from her perspective for a moment. She knows you want her to show more interest in this trip. She’s told you that she is interested in the trip. You still want her to do MORE to demonstrate interest then verbally expressing it – to you, to the MC. I suspect she’s a little frustrated at not being taken at her word on this issue. You want her to express interest in a way that is meaningful to you but which likely has little or no meaning to her. She wouldn’t actually BE more interested, you understand. She’d just be doing it to prove to you that she is interested. She might be a little miffed that she has to prove something like that. If you were in her position as I’ve described it, how enthusiastic do you think YOU would be about the planning?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Apparently, she is not that enthusiastic about spending a bunch of time in the spa. In fact she now says she would like to get a massage, pedicure, facial and manicure all at the same time because she does not want to have to worry about making a spa appointment during the three days we have to relax. I can see her point. She also said she is not too worried about advanced booking because she thinks you can always get in. This is most likely not the case with where we are going, especially since the hotel has already told me it is hard to get in and it is their busy season. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah, I see it’s time to introduce YAA (Yet another Acronym). No, not that one. The new acronym is SEP, which stands for Somebody Else’s Problem. If something is an SEP, that means you don’t have to worry about it anymore because it’s… Somebody Else’s Problem.

Whether or not she gets an appointment is now an SEP. You don’t have to worry about it. Put it with the phrase “there is no reason for you to.”

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I kind of just shut down for a couple of minutes in disbelief. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah. Well, if it bothers you, I suggest you either say something or expect her to continue doing it. Obviously she’s not correctly interpreting your stunned silence.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I just stopped doing the dishes and she did them, although she did not do the dishes from the cake and they were still not done this morning, which bothers me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is it because if you’d have done them you’d have done the cake dishes too? Or…

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Starting to sound like a really great trip - eh? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It still can be. Just relax and enjoy it FOR YOURSELF. Let your wife experience the vacation however she needs to experience it. Let her like it, love it, think it’s OK, dislike it, etc. as the mood strikes her. It’s not a reflection on you.

Relax. Get a facial… but make an appointment early or you might miss out… <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I meant that when we have conflicts, depending on what the conflict is about, my W or I may be satisfied with a simple resolution, where as the other may not be satisfied with the "simple" solution. However, when my W reaches this "satisfied" point, the conflict is over and solved in her mind which leaves me unsatisfied. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope, I must be being dense about this. How about an example?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The wierd thing for me is that we have just had this moment last week and now we are setting up these rules to not have sex or affection. It feels like a step backwards to me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, sometimes it can be one step forward, two steps back…

Hang in there, ok?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think you are right. I try to express admiration to her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here’s another suggestion. How about validating her opinions a little more often? LFC touched on this when she spoke about not always insisting on your way when you’re “sure” you’re right. Even if you are, is it worth it?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I really wish I fully understand how to take those bullets out. Hopefully with a little more wood up side the head from you guys, I can. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know. I think part of it is that you have some really “loaded” ways of expressing yourself. The strength and intensity of your words do not always correspond to your intentions. You also have a tendency to focus too intently on the point you want to make and you’re MISSING vital information along the way. Having a plan is a good idea. Having an inflexible plan is often a detriment to progress.

Mys

Hello Hold, LFC, and Myschae,

Thanks for responding.

Hold - I want to start off by first saying that I hope things are going a little better with your W. I followed some of your recent posting.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But if what I said strikes a chord with you, then you either need to change your mindset or change your plans. Because if you drop a wad of cash on this vacation. Expecting to score points with your wife. And you don't get any points for it. The disappointment will infect your entire relationship long after the vacation ends.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Too late to change plans. This means mindset. First let me start by saying that we have always had SF on our vacations (including last year). When I first booked this vacation I must admit that it was on my mind. However, I am trying to move towards a better M and not a better vacation. Therefore, after it was explicitly explained to me regarding my faults and mistakes on our anniversary, I decided that it would be fair to let my W know that I will not EXPECT any SF on this trip. I say this trying to relieve her of any pressure she would feel while on the trip. I must admit the fact that I actually have to relieve my W of the pressure of being intimate with me is vile to my core being, but I am walking to the ends of this Earth trying to have a better M with her. Now, I then thought that atleast we could try and be somewhat affectionate towards each other and this would help us grow closer. As you read earlier, this blew up in my lap and I have now conceded another step backwards to no expectations of affection or SF. Therefore, all I can trully hope for (because I will probably never use the word expect again) is that we find this trip relaxing and fun. I very much hope that at the very least, my W can find that it is fun to be around me again. I hope this is not hoping too much for this trip.

LFC - Thank you for answering my questions. I know it is probably difficult for you and I really appreciate your openess. It is helping me gain some understanding. If it appears that I am attacking in anyway, please put me in my place. I do not intend nor desire to be attacking or confrontational with you. However, I find that you and my W appear very similar and at times I almost feel like I am asking my W a question instead of you (accept I feel like a kid in the candy store because you will actually try to anser my questions so I can understand things better). Thank you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Sounds like she's willing to be free flowing about these type of vacations that don't include time sensitive family events. So I would suggest you take her at her word and plan away...let her take responsibility for her feelings and let her be in charge of telling you if she likes something or not.

Now, if the issue is that you would rather she help because you don't want to do some of it - then that's reasonable and that should be discussed. But don't frame it in terms of "what she'll prefer or like" because she has stated that the way it is is just fine with her. Do you see the difference? It is okay for you to ask her to help because you don't want to do some or whatever. If this is the case - allow her to do it in her way (like not making an appt. for the spa) and let her manage her emotions for the result. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand. Thanks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> About the affectionate touching/SF converstaion. It sounds like your wife isn't ready to believe that you are okay without SF (for now) yet. You can't force her to believe you. You can only continue to show her through actions. If I was your W, I would love ot hear something like

"I am always open to x, y, and z. But I respect that we are working up to these things being comfortable for each of us. So I am going to let you set the level and I will follow along without expectations for more. If you want to hug and kiss, feel free to initiate the first time and I will be happy to do that, and keep it at that level till you say, and nothing more unless you ask. I want you to feel comfortable and safe."

But that's me. Do you think your wife would listen to something like this and fel good about it? How do you feel about it?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is great and wonderful. after the first three years of our M issues, I was tired of the fighting. I finally said this to my W and then waited...and waited.....and waited....and waited for an entire year. There was nothing. not a small improvement in affection let alone SF or even communication for that matter. This is why it is very scary for me to try this again. I feel that she just felt more comfortable with the way things were and my not complaining, pressuring or questioning things, that she just continued on our broken down path. I definitely struggled and forced myself to not make a move towards SF or anything. This entire year I would climb into bed next to her and lay on my side, waiting for her to feel comfortable to hold my hand or say good night or I love you. I am sure you can imagine what that can do to a person. I would have tears in my eyes on the way to work and on the way home. I would physically be sick inside and have a broken heart. I felt unloved, unliked, unattractive. Therefore, for me to now say (ONCE AGAIN) ok honey, I will not expect anything - SF or affection, I am truly scared. I think she will fall right back into the "everything is just fine mode." You see, I feel like I am in a damned if I do or damned if I don't deal. If I go away on this vacation and hold to what I have agreed (which I will), I am certain that we will heav an ok time (while I am certainly dissapointed inside). We will get home and continue on as nothing has happened. For her this will be great, I have eliminated any of the issues that cause her any burden. Unfortunately, I have left myself to carry the entire bag-o-crap around by myself. A person can physically only do this for so long before they become ill - AGAIN. Then when I finally break down and want to see some progress, say a month later and I'm in an MC session, she always can conveniently pull the trump card out and say, things cannot happen on a time table. I need time to learn that things have changed. Then I am back to square one again. You see, it seems as though the risk is all mine. How do I get out of this cycle so that I feel like things are changing for the better? What would you think my W would be willing to offer me? Since I am completely changing my entire life around to try to make her feel comfortable and safe to promote apositive change, what is fair for me to get in return. I certainly cannot just ask her because she will roll her eyes in disgust of my quest for information. You see, M is ALWAYS a give and take. It cannot be one or the other, and it is not wrong of me to ask, what about me?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think your strategy here could be to say in the beginning "ok, hon, here's the info on the spa if you want to do it. I don't mind booking things if you pick out what you want, but if you do want to do things, we should make appts because they said it fills up this time of year"

then she has all the info she needs to make a decision. And if she doesn't make an appt. (even though you said it would be required) then she is responsible for managing her dissapointment. If you did give her all the required info - then let it be. When she can't get in, don't say "i told you do" (Power Play). Just let her be dissapointed. She'll learn for next time. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree, except she picked what she wanted and then gave it to me to book. I will do what I can to get her in.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is exactly what should happen. You offer to help, she tells you no, you agree and stop doing it. The part about the plate being left out - is this a common occurence that you are disatisfied with how she keeps house? i see that you wrote this also - so I'll address this below... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It never used to be a common occurance. I would say for the last two years it has been like this. Another example is that when we first moved in together, she had this issue with having anything on the bathroom sink in the master bedroom. Therefore, she told me she would get me a basket and I could put my stuff in the basket and bring it out every time I needed to use my toiletries. This was difficult for me because I was used to having my items at my sink and I ended up giving in. Basically, I am now used to doing this and over the last two years she has stopped doing this. She constantly leaves the sink a complete mess. I never say anything, I just move everything in the morning (every morning) when I need to get ready for work. I finally said something a month ago. I said, "do you remmember when you made me start using the basket ot not clutter the sink area?" She said, "yeah." I said, "well I find it ironic because you are leaving the sink area a mess." She said, "well I kind of gotten out of that habit." It was dropped then. I mean, really, what is a person to do in this situation. It is not the biggest problem in the World, but it does upset me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ok. I fudged a little here. Honestly...right now... i don't see having sex with my H. But I also realize that our M will not last if that continues... and I'm not ready for it to end either, so I see our future M as containing SF. I am at a place where I would say much the same as what your wife has said. I do not need SF. In fact, I have gone my entire married life without "SF" for me, though my H has gotton his fill.

That being said... I recognize that it is important to my H. And so I would like to make progress in that area. But I see SF as the top of the ladder we have to climb, and we are still towards the bottom rungs. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is my point though. I understand what you are saying and understand how YOU NEED things to work. For a man, the first rung is SF for the other items to fall into place. Therefore, why is it expected that we need to go up the ladder your way? Why is our way less important than yours? I understand the psychological trauma you are talking about and the emotional withdrawal it can create; however, it is the same, but opposite scenario for a man. A man rates himself (conciously or subconciously) through his work and SF. It is how men are wired. If the SF is not there, then the man (no matter how good his work is) starts questioning himself and his abilities. Following the man questioning himself, he soon feels inadequate and unattractive. Next follows feelings of being taken advantage of and used. Then follows jealousy. Jealousy of pets or kids or neighbors or W's friends because it appears that any affection or niceties are given to anyone else but the man. Then the man is told to go completely against his wiring and profess he will not have any expectations or desires for SF so that the M can be improved. Is this starting to make sense yet?

Flipping this situation exactly around would be: A woman is in a M where they are having SF. The woman feels that she is not having th emotional connection, as she may have had before. The woman does not feel sexual and/or no longer desires SF with her H. The woman hungers for the emotional connection and starts to question what is wrong with her because her H does not communicate or show her affection or admiration. She finds that they are arguing a lot more and does not know why except for the one short sighted thing it seems is on her H's mind - sex. She starts to get mad at her H because all he seems to think about (in her mind) is sex and therefore, his total value on the marriage is that his W is only there for sex (which is never true). This woman is told to just have sex with her H and everything will be OK. The woman feels this is wrong and should not be this way and that it is not fair. Therefore, she does not have sex with him. Most people (in this forum) seem to agree with the woman. However, it is very ironic because asking the man two paragraphs above, to be emotional and "give up" any sexual desires in the short term is exactly the same as asking the woman in the above paragraph to just give in and have sex to make things better. These two requests are entirely the same for both genders. Therefore, I still am confused as to why the man is expected to make the great gift of the giver and suck it up, but the woman caould not possibly be asked to do something similar? I find this extremely unfair and confusing.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes I must consciously hold back. Not because my libido is asking for it and I am stopping it. but because it is my giver that is wanting to give it. And we have gotten to this place in our M by me letting my giver have full reign and not engaging my taker. So I know it likely wouldn't be good for me emotionally right now to do it. I would probably put all the walls back up that I am so fiercly trying to bring down. It would be a backslide for me into withdrawal land - which for me is a souless existence where my Giver makes everyone else happy but me.

I hear your frustration. And I'm sorry for it. Just as I am sorry that this is hurtful to my H too.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here is the thing. Any man that remains in a relationship where SF has been an issue, longer than a year is giving quite a bit with his giver. Now, a lot of women may not believe this, but it is true. I challenge any man to disagree with this. I know there are a lot of things that men cannot possibly dream of understanding about women, such as child birth, that time of the month etc.. I also will say, after being with my W while she gave birth to our lovely S, women are definitely the stronger sex when it comes to pain. But, I wish women could take some magic pill that would last for a week and not have any lasting effects, other than give them a man's dose of testosterone for one week. The I think women would not feel as though men are pigs for desiring sex sooooo much. I do not mean any of this in a bad way, so please do not be offended.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> but I think this is an unproductive way to look at it. You should both be working towards everyone's needs being met. Win-Win. The way you present it is Win-Lose. Now Myshae is much better at instructing on how to do Win-Win (POJA) so I'll let her pick it up there... but I will say this...

The most healing thing my H could do is to understand that having SF right now would be detrimental to our eventual goal of a mutually fulfilling M (that includes SF). So if H can keep the ultimate goal in mind, and sacrifice the immediacy in order to achieve that - then I feel safe in working towards it. The immediate pressure is relieved. though I understand that a no-SF M is not a ggod place, and staying here is not an option. But I do see it as a necessary place en route to healing. Does that make sense?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand what you are saying and a win-win is fantastic; but, that would require not putting SF on any perverbial back burner. It would be improving SF along with everything else. Your statement in the second paragraph is defintely contradictory to a win-win. It proposes a lose (for a while) - win and then hopefully a win - win. I do really understand what you are saying.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am only here to present your W's maybe pov. Baba has been here to cheer for your side on this too. No one here is saying you have to permanently give up sex. In fact, no one here is begrudging you the right to be hurt about it. But we ARE trying to help you solve it. It is not fair for you to sacrifice your SF for her hurt. Nor is it right for her to sacrifice her EN for your hurt about SF. those are Lose-Win. But I think that we can both agree that "just doing it" is not going to solve the problem. And it just might break the emotional connection that you might be hoping to gain on your side through SF. it's a process. And this place is just temporary.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not sure that I do agree with this last couple of sentences. This does not mean that I do not understand that this may be the only way to get where I wish our M to be. I do understand this. Unfortunately, I may have to do these things that are contrary to how men are wired.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now I'm sure you'll respond to this by telling me that your wife ISN'T being considerate. After all, she's not having SF. I'm not here to judge hat your wife is or isn't doing. Because that gets us nowhere. It sounds like the affection part is where you're at. So focus on what you can do to allow for your W to make progress on that. That's been discussed elsewhere and Mys has got that going on...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is fine. My previous things I wrote were to try and understand why it is inherently not fair on the guy and the man is expected to follow the path the woman needs for recovery versus the path the man would naturally need. I am prepaired to follow my W's necessary plan, which entails my giving up what I directly need and potentially could cause resentment internally. However, all that I think a man can ask is that the W truly understand the sacrafice he is willing to make for the improvement of the M. I am not out to make men marters. I am not saying women do not sacrafice for the marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You need to sit down and split the chores. Your wife had a full plate and so do you. Your wife should do a lot of DS, being the one at home. But she should also have the flexibility to do non-chore projects. And to even have some time for herself (as should you!)

The question is - is this so important to you right now that you want to make it one of the few issues you work on for now? Because you don't want to try and tackle everything at once. If not, continue on with offering to help, accepting a refusal, and taking care of the things that make you the most crazy (like if it was me... i would have taken care of the B-day plate when I saw it hadn't been done. Because running a house is a team effort. And I wouldn't have made it a power play - I wouldn't have made a big deal out of doing what someone else should have done). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you are absolutely right. In my mind this stuff is not as important as other things and should not be chosen as something to fix right now. However, I am concerned that maybe it is really important to my W. For instance, I did not really think the helping on planning the vacation was a really big deal, it was just another example of inconsistent behavior or a lack of proper communication. But, when we were in the MC session, both my W and the MC felt this issue was really big, which I did not understand.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well.. I'm just saying that maybe your wife also "knew she was right". so you should accept the possibility that you may not be right. It's not a matter of " giving in " or taking over . These phrases tell me that it is all about Power for both of you. Someone is right and someone is wrong. You aren't playing on the same team when you focus on the Power aspects. When you describe your W holding to her opinion as "taking over" - it raises flags for me. I'm sure your wife would label you behavior in the same way.

I, personally, am uncomfortable with a relationship that has that as an aspect of it. I've handled this in my M by letting go of my opinion most of the time so that there wouldn't be a power struggle. But that still results in a lose, because H perceives it as a win. So my strategy now is to try and take the power out of it. To be humble when I am wrong, AND when I am right. And to allow H to learn that I'm not going to play that way. We'll see if it works...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have tried to remove the power struggle from our R and will continue to do this. It will be interesting on the trip.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So this was really long I hope it clarifies some things. I'm open to continuing this if you have more/differnet questions...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks. I really appreciate your openess to continue.

Myschae -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> *strikes up the band*
Happy birthday to you!
Happy birthday to you!
Happy BIRTHDAY, Extremely Looosssstttt!
Happy birthday to you!

… and many happy returns…
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks. This made me laugh! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Hmmm….. What might have been a better approach would have been to ask her then about how much time she thought she’d need to think about it. Something like

“Oh! Well, somehow I had the impression it was going to come up again. I’d really appreciate some idea of when you think you’ll have an answer, just so that I’m not worrying about it.”
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are correct and I may have come up with this idea if I actually realized that she did not think whe had to come up with these for our next session. I truly expected the MC to push for these because when I first went to the MC (alone) this was one of the first things she pushed me for and made me anser her on the spot. Therefore, I expected the MC to follow through and ask her in this session. I wanted to try and avoid my W feeling like she was on the spot and under "pressure." I was trying to help her feel safe for the next day, but actually ended up making her feel unsafe that night. There are soooo many twists and turns with this entire relationship thing. I am getting worn out trying to make sure I do not do anything wrong.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Extremely Lost, I know.. I truly believe from the bottom of my heart that you are trying to be kind. But listen to what your words convey.

“ Therefore, I look at our vacations as more for her to experience things, which gives me enjoyment and pleasure to participate in her enjoyment.”

I think you meant that you want to see her happy. You enjoy seeing her happy. How these words come across, however, is that your enjoyment of the trip HINGES upon her being happy with it. And, not only that, she has to be happy with it in a way that you can tangibly experience. If I were your wife, I would be a nervous wreck right about now. Either that, or I’d withdraw. Turn off the pressure, Extremely Lost. Let your wife enjoy the vacation or not enjoy it as it comes. You know, if she doesn’t like it at all, it really doesn’t have to be a reflection on you. It might be that she learns she doesn’t like wine country because of the bees or she has allergies or she’d prefer the ocean but never would have known that. A big part of gaining experience involves learning what you DON’T like as well as what you DO like. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for seeing what I meant. I take your point and understand what you are saying here. I will try to not interfer with her enjoyment or disatissfaction.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As for her being involved in the planning, it was a selfish demand. You wanted her to show interest in a way that was meaningful to you regardless of whether or not she was enthusiastic about it. If you wanted to use a POJA on this scenario, it would have involved finding some way for her to be enthusiastic about planning this trip with you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It was never intended on being selfish or demanding. I did mention that it would make me happy to have her plan a trip with me because it would also make me feel like we are working towards a goal together, which would make me feel good.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Again, listen to your words, Extremely Lost. ” put my W in a situation that caused her to put enormous pressure on herself” Of COURSE she wanted to defend herself. There is an inherent challenge in that statement. Take a step back for a moment and consider that your wife does NOT feel the pressure was internally motivated. Assigning that diagnosis to it is tantamount to issuing a challenge to her to explain why she felt pressured. Which, I’m sure she did at length. I hope you listened.

” I said there is no reason to defend yourself because I accept that I made a mistake not caring about your feelings and putting you into that situation.”

This statement is dismissive. Obviously, she felt she had a good reason to defend herself. Remember that you’re trying to build agreement with her. That means that she needs to feel SAFE that you will listen to her concerns and not dismiss them in favor of your own pre-judgments. You assumed this was not relevant to the conversation because YOU knew where you were going with it. She has not felt heard yet. Extremely Lost, please SLOW down a little. Just because you know where you want to take a conversation, doesn’t mean that you should drag your wife there unwillingly. Remember, you’re in a partnership. Good conversation requires two people to both give and take. If she’s not finished, let her TALK.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not see the challenge in these statements because I felt that because I was admitting I was wrong, there really was no reason for her to still be defensive. The MC is really trying to get both of us to stop always feeling like we have to defend our actions because it promotes a right or wrong feeling and the power struggle that LFC brought up.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And for the sake of my future sanity, take a big, black, chalkboard eraser and ERASE the phrase “there is no reason for you to” from your vocabulary. Just obliterate it entirely. While you're in there, take out any other "versions" of it, too. Trust me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Agreed. Done!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This may be where you pulled the trigger, but you loaded the gun and cocked it a little ways back. Again, it is not going to be effective for you to tell HER what will make HER feel more comfortable. She’s going to have to determine that for herself and tell YOU (once she figures it out). Can you see why?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I get confused because I am told to do this or that to make my W feel more safe and comfortable. All I was doing was saying that I am doing some things (that are recommended to me) to help my W feel more safe and comfortable. This is all I can do. I am not trying to tell her she IS more comfortable. I am just trying to set the stage for her to maybe feel that she can be. Does this make sense? Is this still off on my thinking?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You did end it well, though. Good job there. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, take a look at it from her perspective for a moment. She knows you want her to show more interest in this trip. She’s told you that she is interested in the trip. You still want her to do MORE to demonstrate interest then verbally expressing it – to you, to the MC. I suspect she’s a little frustrated at not being taken at her word on this issue. You want her to express interest in a way that is meaningful to you but which likely has little or no meaning to her. She wouldn’t actually BE more interested, you understand. She’d just be doing it to prove to you that she is interested. She might be a little miffed that she has to prove something like that. If you were in her position as I’ve described it, how enthusiastic do you think YOU would be about the planning?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thats fine and I do understand the point of view you are expressing. As we so often discuss, M is a give and take and hopefully for the most part it is a fair exchange. Now, yes you could get caught up in the, "why can't he take me at my word" or you could say to yourself, look, I know his biggest EN is SF and I know it must really bother him because he is risking everything to try and fix it. I know I dissappoint him with not desiring to even improve our SF situation. He has said my small involvment in planning this trip would make him happy. It will only take a few minutes out of my life. Why don't I just give a little to make him happy because I am taking on all other levels. Why is this such a hard leap for her? Why is this so bad of me to ask for?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ah, I see it’s time to introduce YAA (Yet another Acronym). No, not that one. The new acronym is SEP, which stands for Somebody Else’s Problem. If something is an SEP, that means you don’t have to worry about it anymore because it’s… Somebody Else’s Problem.

Whether or not she gets an appointment is now an SEP. You don’t have to worry about it. Put it with the phrase “there is no reason for you to.”
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah... Except for the fact that she has picked what she wants and gave me the list to schedule it. Now it is my problem (somewhat).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ah. Well, if it bothers you, I suggest you either say something or expect her to continue doing it. Obviously she’s not correctly interpreting your stunned silence.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am very careful to pick my battles currently. My W feels that I am always saying she is doing this wrong or that wrong (I feel the same way by the way). Therefore, if I tell her that things bother or hurt me right now, I would be telling her this a large amount of the time and thereby increasing her feeling of my telling her what she is doing wrong. This would validate her original feelings and help her to withdrawl further.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Is it because if you’d have done them you’d have done the cake dishes too? Or…
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Its because she did not feel like doing them. Over the last two years she has seriously dropped in her amount of efforts she puts into DS. It is enough to say it is a change in her personality. The only time she really cleans the house is when we have guests over. Just recently, she has not really been doing this like she used to. I am worried that this is a sign of her giving up.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It still can be. Just relax and enjoy it FOR YOURSELF. Let your wife experience the vacation however she needs to experience it. Let her like it, love it, think it’s OK, dislike it, etc. as the mood strikes her. It’s not a reflection on you.

Relax. Get a facial… but make an appointment early or you might miss out…
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK.OK. I will relax and enjoy the trip.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Nope, I must be being dense about this. How about an example?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is hard to think of an exact example now because it has been a while since we had a circular argument (which is good). A circular argument we had before was regarding to our S and dinner at the table. We have an open type floor plan where our kitchen and family room is open. The table sits between the kitchen and family room. We finally got a nice TV in the family room and I suggested that we have an agreement that when we sit down for family dinners, we turn the TV off and do not read books or magazines at the dinner to promote conversation. She said OK to this. The next night at dinner she has the TV on and a magazine at the table. I say, "I thought we had agreed to not do this?" She said, "fine, and said to our S that daddy does not want the TV on." This bothered me because we had reached an agreement and she not only broke the agreement, but tried to give blame to me to our S to make me look bad. I said that this was not fair and that we had mutually agreed. She said, what do you want? I turned the TV off, it is done! I said, no, it is the point that you dismissed our agreement one day later and then tried to give me sole blame in front of our son. She said, there you go again, keeping it going. I said, I am not keeping it going, I am trying to discuss what actually happened and what made me feel bad. She then said, "If you were getting sex, this would not be an issue." and it went down hill from there.

She reached a resolution in her mind early (when she turned the TV off). I did not reach resolution because the two main issues were unresolved. However, I was expected to just let the two main issue go because she turned the TV off. This is an example of what I mean with different levels of resolution.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yeah, sometimes it can be one step forward, two steps back…

Hang in there, ok? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Here’s another suggestion. How about validating her opinions a little more often? LFC touched on this when she spoke about not always insisting on your way when you’re “sure” you’re right. Even if you are, is it worth it? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You and LFC are right and I agree with this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know. I think part of it is that you have some really “loaded” ways of expressing yourself. The strength and intensity of your words do not always correspond to your intentions. You also have a tendency to focus too intently on the point you want to make and you’re MISSING vital information along the way. Having a plan is a good idea. Having an inflexible plan is often a detriment to progress. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fair enough.

Best Wishes,

EL

We do not have to have sex on the vacation.

Honey, I want to make it clear we don't have to have sex.

I promise not to expect sex on the vacation but if you want to have sex I am open to it.

I spent $3000.00 on this vacation and spent 2 weeks planning it but I will not expect sex.

We do not really have to have sex on this vacation.

Don't worry, I won't pressure you for sex on vacation.

REmember, I will not expect sex on this vacation.

Even though I expected sex on every vacation we went on, I will not expect sex here.

Remember, you do not have to offer sex on this vacation...


What does this sound like? To me, sounds like your mind is totally on sex or lack of sex. That is a lot of pressure.

Extremely Lost

I’m going to comment a little on what you wrote to LFC, though I think she is doing an absolutely fantastic job giving you her perspective. (LFC, I hope you don’t mind.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I finally said this to my W and then waited...and waited.....and waited....and waited for an entire year. There was nothing. not a small improvement in affection let alone SF or even communication for that matter. This is why it is very scary for me to try this again. I feel that she just felt more comfortable with the way things were and my not complaining, pressuring or questioning things, that she just continued on our broken down path. I definitely struggled and forced myself to not make a move towards SF or anything. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is the breakdown in the process. No one is saying to dismiss your needs for SF indefinitely. In fact, that is a TERRIBLE plan because it gets you to the place you’ve described. At some point you ABSOLUTELY MUST bring it up. Just silently waiting for it to fix itself one day is not going to work – which you’ve learned through experience.

However, CHOOSING to work on something else in the SHORT TERM is NOT the same as agreeing to dismiss your needs, throwing up your hands, and not working on anything. Instead, what you’re doing is focusing on a different area. Since you’re not working on SF, it will help decrease your frustration level (I would think) if you’re not constantly looking for improvement in that area. It’s a matter of focus, Extremely Lost. It can be hard to work on too many things at once because the problems seem to become intertwined and progress is very, very difficult to measure. As you’ve mentioned, trying to address SF first didn’t seem to help your situation. You’ve decided that other areas need improvement first. But, until those areas are fixed, try to have patience if SF doesn’t improve because that area is not the focus of your (or her) efforts.

I’m getting a little bit confused about what areas you and your wife ARE working on. As far as I can tell, it’s communication at the moment? Affection seems to be peripherally on the radar in the sense that she’s thinking about how to work on that. Is that correct? The problem is that those areas will be slowed if SF keeps coming up as a distraction. It’s like having a puppy in the middle of a circle of children all calling it’s name. You get half way across the floor in one direction and then get distracted by another issue and head off in that direction and on and on.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Unfortunately, I have left myself to carry the entire bag-o-crap around by myself. A person can physically only do this for so long before they become ill - AGAIN. Then when I finally break down and want to see some progress, say a month later and I'm in an MC session, she always can conveniently pull the trump card out and say, things cannot happen on a time table. I need time to learn that things have changed. Then I am back to square one again. You see, it seems as though the risk is all mine. How do I get out of this cycle so that I feel like things are changing for the better? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*sighs* Well, this is a problem. And, it should be addressed NOW before the vacation. So, let’s talk about this because allowing yourself building up this level of damaging resentment is absolutely unacceptable. You’re not doing yourself, your wife, or your marriage any good at all by doing this. How much time do we have to work with before you leave? What would you say would mitigate your frustration? Would it help if you had some expectation of affection on this vacation?

I will say this, though. You will have to be very clear that what you are asking for is for YOUR benefit. It absolutely 100% can NOT be couched in a way that assigns ANY benefit to HER. That means it can’t be: “I want affectionate touches so that she can learn that those are safe.” Instead it should be something like: “I want affectionate touches because they make ME feel <better, more hopeful, valued, desirable, happy>.” Do you see the difference?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It cannot be one or the other, and it is not wrong of me to ask, what about me? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, it isn’t. But instead of asking her, ask yourself. What would help YOU overcome your frustration? It might help to list several things.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> However, it is very ironic because asking the man two paragraphs above, to be emotional and "give up" any sexual desires in the short term is exactly the same as asking the woman in the above paragraph to just give in and have sex to make things better. These two requests are entirely the same for both genders. Therefore, I still am confused as to why the man is expected to make the great gift of the giver and suck it up, but the woman caould not possibly be asked to do something similar? I find this extremely unfair and confusing. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dr. Harley WOULD ask the woman to do just that in certain situations (not yours, LFC). Take a look at this FAQ in which Dr. Harley counsels a woman about this issue: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5013b_qa.html.

Now, a key difference in that example is that there were no other issues stated. But, if your wife was the one here posting, and you were the one that was in withdrawal and “lacked interest” in fixing the relationship, why don’t you believe that we would point her in the direction of meeting your most important EN? I would. Baba would. *winks at Baba* But, she’s not here! And, YOU’VE stated explicitly that starting to repair your marriage by working on SF first isn’t going to work in your case. So, we work with what we have and where you are. Does that help at all?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Here is the thing. Any man that remains in a relationship where SF has been an issue, longer than a year is giving quite a bit with his giver. Now, a lot of women may not believe this, but it is true. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I absolutely believe this. I’ll let you in on a bit of my personal history. I have certain physical ailments (female problems) that have recently prevented me and my H from having a fulfilling sex life because of severe pain. I do what I can which includes aggressively pursuing treatment. BUT, it takes a while for the treatments to be affected (tests and length between Dr. appointments) and also for the treatments to take effect. Then, to top it all off, I tend to ‘ramp up slowly’ in that department. If it’s been awhile and I’ve been uncomfortable and in pain in that region, it takes time before my libido reasserts itself. Also, my libido doesn’t just spontaneously return. The pesky thing has to be helped along which requires his participation and my commitment (Ok, that part is not so bad for him). We talked about it last night. I keep him informed with how things are going. I’m willing to do what I can (alternate methods that aren’t painful) to take care of him but he prefers to wait until I’m ready. *shrugs* It’s absolutely not fair to him.

I think, in a way, I have it much easier. Physical pain with a medical cause is easy to describe, understand, and quantify. It’s easy to be transparent about. I took him WITH me to my Dr. appointments so he could ask the questions he needed to ask the Dr. and provide me with emotional support. But, the timeline is JUST as ambiguous. I know what the treatments involve but there is no telling when they will be effective sometimes. I have no idea when the pain will go away, I only know it will with time and treatment. Emotional pain can be JUST as severe and traumatizing as physical pain during relations. And, it can be very, very hard to know when it will go away.. only that it will if the emotional ‘treatments’ are followed.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I understand what you are saying and a win-win is fantastic; but, that would require not putting SF on any perverbial back burner. It would be improving SF along with everything else. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, this is what I tried to suggest at first. You said it wouldn’t work. It would be great if it would, but we have to live in reality. My understanding of your situation was that it was either sex on the back burner for the short term, or …

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is fine. My previous things I wrote were to try and understand why it is inherently not fair on the guy and the man is expected to follow the path the woman needs for recovery versus the path the man would naturally need. I am prepaired to follow my W's necessary plan, which entails my giving up what I directly need and potentially could cause resentment internally. However, all that I think a man can ask is that the W truly understand the sacrafice he is willing to make for the improvement of the M. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think she eventually might. But, asking this of her right now is going to distract her from the task at hand. This is what I meant by focus. I am disturbed by the pace at which you’re developing resentment though. There is a favorite saying of mine on this board. “Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die.” I mentioned before that you need to find a way to manage your resentment and frustration. How are you doing on that? HINT: It can’t involve something someone else has to do for you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am getting worn out trying to make sure I do not do anything wrong. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, it’s tiring.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It was never intended on being selfish or demanding. I did mention that it would make me happy to have her plan a trip with me because it would also make me feel like we are working towards a goal together, which would make me feel good. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand that. But, the way you expressed your request did not make it clear that was your intent. Instead, it was shrouded in the idea (DJ) that your wife was truly not interested in the trip and should prove to you that she was. If you’d have come out and simply stated that you’d have LIKED help planning the trip, her defenses probably wouldn’t have been up so high. Extremely Lost, you might do a little better if you stick to very simply asking what you want WITHOUT trying to assign any benefits in the deal to her. Let her decide whether or not she benefits and why.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do not see the challenge in these statements because I felt that because I was admitting I was wrong, there really was no reason for her to still be defensive. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know.

The challenge is in the words “caused her to put enormous pressure on herself” . The implication of those words is that this is something she did to herself. It effectively managed to erase any of the good intentions you had for taking responsibility. You could have said: ..put my wife in a situation in which she probably felt enormous pressure.” Although she might STILL have wanted to explain to you why she felt pressured.

That was bad enough. Telling her “There is no reason to..” when she obviously felt there was, didn’t help.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The MC is really trying to get both of us to stop always feeling like we have to defend our actions because it promotes a right or wrong feeling and the power struggle that LFC brought up. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This I agree with. But, you can only control yourself. It’s not going to be helpful for you to concentrate on telling HER not to defend her actions. Your job is not to defend YOUR actions. Let your wife manage this all by herself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I get confused because I am told to do this or that to make my W feel more safe and comfortable. All I was doing was saying that I am doing some things (that are recommended to me) to help my W feel more safe and comfortable. This is all I can do. I am not trying to tell her she IS more comfortable. I am just trying to set the stage for her to maybe feel that she can be. Does this make sense? Is this still off on my thinking? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, I understand your reasoning. It’s just that what you say tends to convey different intentions. It is both what you say and HOW you say it, Extremely Lost. Your conversational style is very, very focused on HER. I think you need to practice learning to express things only in terms of yourself and not including your wife.

I know you just LIVE for my examples so here are a few:


You said: "I was confused about how my W is a planner and generally plans everything, but when it comes to our vacations she does not really give input into the planning." I also said, "It would make me happy if my W would split the planning. By her not being involved in the planning of our trips, it makes me feel as though she is not really interested in the trip. I know she may not really feel this way, but it is how it makes me feel. I also said that I feel a great amount of pressure from planning the vacations without my W's input because I have traveled quite a bit and she has not. Therefore, I look at our vacations as more for her to experience things, which gives me enjoyment and pleasure to participate in her enjoyment. I am concerned that if we do something she does not like, she will, out of trying to be kind, not really mention how she feels."

You could have said: “it would make me happy if <wife> would be willing to help me with the planning of this trip. It is important to me that she have a good time and I’m a little concerned I might miss something she’d like to do. <Wife>, would you be willing to do that for me?”
--
You said: “I started off with some background on how I realized I screwed up on our anniversary and put my W in a situation that caused her to put enormous pressure on herself.”

You could have said: “Our anniversary did not work out the way I planned. I feel bad because I suspect my actions caused my wife to feel pressured. I don’t want that to happen on this vacation.”
--
You said: “I said there is no reason to defend yourself because I accept that I made a mistake not caring about your feelings and putting you into that situation.”

You could have said: “I understand that I was the one that made the mistake by not caring about your feelings and putting you into that situation. I might not have expressed that clearly.”
--
You said: “"I would like us to be able to try and be affectionate with each other through some physical touches that will not lead to SF so that we can feel closer to each other and my W can see that she can feel safe and comfortable with doing this again."

You could have said: “I would like us to be able to try and be affectionate with each other through some physical touches that will not lead to SF so that we can feel closer to each other. It is important to me and makes me feel <loved and desired, hopeful about our marriage recovery, like we’re making good progress, valued, whatever>.”


Take the focus OFF of her. Express your desires in terms of what you want for YOURSELF and what benefits it has TO YOU.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now, yes you could get caught up in the, "why can't he take me at my word" or you could say to yourself, look, I know his biggest EN is SF and I know it must really bother him because he is risking everything to try and fix it. I know I dissappoint him with not desiring to even improve our SF situation. He has said my small involvment in planning this trip would make him happy. It will only take a few minutes out of my life. Why don't I just give a little to make him happy because I am taking on all other levels. Why is this such a hard leap for her? Why is this so bad of me to ask for? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*sighs*

On the one hand I’m afraid of validating your fears and on the other hand I’m afraid to not say anything. Extremely Lost, I’m sure that your wife has no idea that the two things are even remotely linked in your mind because she is focusing elsewhere. So, the question is, why aren’t YOU focusing on whatever area you guys are working on instead of SF. Didn’t you decide not to focus on that? Didn’t you decide not to expect HER to focus on that?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ah... Except for the fact that she has picked what she wants and gave me the list to schedule it. Now it is my problem (somewhat). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*chuckles* I see.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am very careful to pick my battles currently. My W feels that I am always saying she is doing this wrong or that wrong (I feel the same way by the way). Therefore, if I tell her that things bother or hurt me right now, I would be telling her this a large amount of the time and thereby increasing her feeling of my telling her what she is doing wrong. This would validate her original feelings and help her to withdrawl further. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, that is an excellent strategy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Its because she did not feel like doing them. Over the last two years she has seriously dropped in her amount of efforts she puts into DS. It is enough to say it is a change in her personality. The only time she really cleans the house is when we have guests over. Just recently, she has not really been doing this like she used to. I am worried that this is a sign of her giving up. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She reached a resolution in her mind early (when she turned the TV off). I did not reach resolution because the two main issues were unresolved. However, I was expected to just let the two main issue go because she turned the TV off. This is an example of what I mean with different levels of resolution. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Aha! The light has gone on.. and isn’t it blinding. I get it now. Thanks.

Mys

Hello baba2 & Myschae,

Baba2 - You made me laugh again. I admit it is a sad laugh. I definitely see your point. You are right, it is a lot of pressure. It hurt just reading it!

Myschae -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I’m getting a little bit confused about what areas you and your wife ARE working on. As far as I can tell, it’s communication at the moment? Affection seems to be peripherally on the radar in the sense that she’s thinking about how to work on that. Is that correct? The problem is that those areas will be slowed if SF keeps coming up as a distraction. It’s like having a puppy in the middle of a circle of children all calling it’s name. You get half way across the floor in one direction and then get distracted by another issue and head off in that direction and on and on.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You and me both. I am getting confused too. I believe we are working on my trust issues and my not participating in circular arguments and my not being jealous of my W. I do not know what my W is supposed to be working on any more. I believe, as she says, "she is giving things time for her to learn to feel safe and comfortable in trusting me with her emotions." Sounds to me like she is just waiting for the solution to drop out of the sky. Granted I think some things take time, but some things take a push once in a while. There is nothing wrong with both of these if they work.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> *sighs* Well, this is a problem. And, it should be addressed NOW before the vacation. So, let’s talk about this because allowing yourself building up this level of damaging resentment is absolutely unacceptable. You’re not doing yourself, your wife, or your marriage any good at all by doing this. How much time do we have to work with before you leave? What would you say would mitigate your frustration? Would it help if you had some expectation of affection on this vacation? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Seeing some improvement or progress would be comforting. Yes, it would be good to be able to have some expectation of affection on this vacation. Unfortunately, I do not believe I can revisit this before the trip. Since it has now become an issue in the MC session and my W has said the expectation of affection on the trip puts too much pressure on her, and so I agreed to back off. Therefore, I cannot see, without some type of magic ferry dust, how I could possibly turn this around. I believe that if I even try to broach this again, it will only make things worse.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I will say this, though. You will have to be very clear that what you are asking for is for YOUR benefit. It absolutely 100% can NOT be couched in a way that assigns ANY benefit to HER. That means it can’t be: “I want affectionate touches so that she can learn that those are safe.” Instead it should be something like: “I want affectionate touches because they make ME feel <better, more hopeful, valued, desirable, happy>.” Do you see the difference?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wish I could say something like this and know I would get a positive response. I do not think that I could say anything without her questioning my motives at this point. I guess, I probably just need to give it all a rest, and not say anything about this and personnally have a good time on this vacation. I guess this is a form of just waiting for things to get better. I don't know.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> No, it isn’t. But instead of asking her, ask yourself. What would help YOU overcome your frustration? It might help to list several things.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Overcoming my frustrations would involve my W: 1) showing admiration - leting me know that she values me as part of her life (more than financially or a father to our S). 2) Showing me that she is attracted to me. 3) Showing me that she can be affectionate towards me. 4) Communicating to me that SF is important to me and she understand this and that I am not WRONG for feeling this way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now, a key difference in that example is that there were no other issues stated. But, if your wife was the one here posting, and you were the one that was in withdrawal and “lacked interest” in fixing the relationship, why don’t you believe that we would point her in the direction of meeting your most important EN? I would. Baba would. *winks at Baba* But, she’s not here! And, YOU’VE stated explicitly that starting to repair your marriage by working on SF first isn’t going to work in your case. So, we work with what we have and where you are. Does that help at all?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This does help. Thanks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I absolutely believe this. I’ll let you in on a bit of my personal history. I have certain physical ailments (female problems) that have recently prevented me and my H from having a fulfilling sex life because of severe pain. I do what I can which includes aggressively pursuing treatment. BUT, it takes a while for the treatments to be affected (tests and length between Dr. appointments) and also for the treatments to take effect. Then, to top it all off, I tend to ‘ramp up slowly’ in that department. If it’s been awhile and I’ve been uncomfortable and in pain in that region, it takes time before my libido reasserts itself. Also, my libido doesn’t just spontaneously return. The pesky thing has to be helped along which requires his participation and my commitment (Ok, that part is not so bad for him). We talked about it last night. I keep him informed with how things are going. I’m willing to do what I can (alternate methods that aren’t painful) to take care of him but he prefers to wait until I’m ready. *shrugs* It’s absolutely not fair to him.

I think, in a way, I have it much easier. Physical pain with a medical cause is easy to describe, understand, and quantify. It’s easy to be transparent about. I took him WITH me to my Dr. appointments so he could ask the questions he needed to ask the Dr. and provide me with emotional support. But, the timeline is JUST as ambiguous. I know what the treatments involve but there is no telling when they will be effective sometimes. I have no idea when the pain will go away, I only know it will with time and treatment. Emotional pain can be JUST as severe and traumatizing as physical pain during relations. And, it can be very, very hard to know when it will go away.. only that it will if the emotional ‘treatments’ are followed.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel for you and your struggles. I do think you are right about your physical pain making things a littles easier to understand because your issues are tangible.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think she eventually might. But, asking this of her right now is going to distract her from the task at hand. This is what I meant by focus. I am disturbed by the pace at which you’re developing resentment though. There is a favorite saying of mine on this board. “Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die.” I mentioned before that you need to find a way to manage your resentment and frustration. How are you doing on that? HINT: It can’t involve something someone else has to do for you.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I really hope you are right and that someday she can appreciate that I have actually gone through a great deal as well. How am I handling my resentment? Well, I am going away for several days to drink a lot of wine! I am also just trying to not fire any more shots at myself before the trip. I am spending a lot of time on this post. I am reading at night.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I understand that. But, the way you expressed your request did not make it clear that was your intent. Instead, it was shrouded in the idea (DJ) that your wife was truly not interested in the trip and should prove to you that she was. If you’d have come out and simply stated that you’d have LIKED help planning the trip, her defenses probably wouldn’t have been up so high. Extremely Lost, you might do a little better if you stick to very simply asking what you want WITHOUT trying to assign any benefits in the deal to her. Let her decide whether or not she benefits and why.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Interesting. I thought it would make things easier for her if I stated my intentions and why. By trying to show her that I was trying to think of her in everything I was doing, I thought she would be appreciative. I did not think she would take my trying to be kind and think of her as controling. I will try your advice here. Thanks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This I agree with. But, you can only control yourself. It’s not going to be helpful for you to concentrate on telling HER not to defend her actions. Your job is not to defend YOUR actions. Let your wife manage this all by herself. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fair enough. I hope she starts managing this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, I understand your reasoning. It’s just that what you say tends to convey different intentions. It is both what you say and HOW you say it, Extremely Lost. Your conversational style is very, very focused on HER. I think you need to practice learning to express things only in terms of yourself and not including your wife. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, OK. I will try this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Take the focus OFF of her. Express your desires in terms of what you want for YOURSELF and what benefits it has TO YOU. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Got it. I do live for your examples. Thanks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> On the one hand I’m afraid of validating your fears and on the other hand I’m afraid to not say anything. Extremely Lost, I’m sure that your wife has no idea that the two things are even remotely linked in your mind because she is focusing elsewhere. So, the question is, why aren’t YOU focusing on whatever area you guys are working on instead of SF. Didn’t you decide not to focus on that? Didn’t you decide not to expect HER to focus on that? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is a difference between note being focused and having awareness that something still is there. I may agree to focus on a different item to fix, but this in no uncertain terms means the other item is magically gone and no longer effects me (whether I choose to show other things effecting me or not is a different story). This is why I was asking, why could she not do a simple thing for me to make me happy when she knew that there were much larger things that I have (FOR THE SHORT TERM) accepted being abscent?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Aha! The light has gone on.. and isn’t it blinding. I get it now. Thanks.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am glad you understand this now.

Thanks for all the comments!

Best Wishes,

EL

Hi EL, Baba, Mys-

Just letting you know I'm still here - I'm thinking about your post EL and will write again tonight - then I'm gone for a week.... Just FYI.

Interesting observation....

EL - I think you have the same big red button as my H, and I have the same big red button as your W. Or similar enough for us to talk in circles around each other like we would with our spouses. I think that's why this thread sets me slightly on edge. But it's a good exercise for me to try and give my POV, and I hope it's good for you EL to interact with me like that.

But I gotta say - thanks Mys for keeping the even keel. It's good to have you around for me, (and for EL if I can make assumptions!). Makes me feel safer being on this thread knowing I'm just doing the pOV and I don't have to "prove" anything. That you're here to give the real advice and guidance. It lowers the stakes for me and gives me the room to be honest. So thanks.

be back later!

lfc

<small>[ August 11, 2004, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: lookingforchange ]</small>

Hey LFC,

Thanks for your honesty. I hope this thread does not make you feel too uncomfortable. Your input and answers really do help me try to understand my W. I truely appreciate your efforts and POV. If I ever ask something or state something that bothers you or makes you upset please let me know. I really would feel awful if you are upset with something I might have wrote. It is very interesting for me to be able to converse with you and get to actually "talk with the other side" if you know what I mean. I hope it may help for you to actually converse with the "other side" as well.

Thanks for what I know is your difficult efforts. It really is helping me.

Thanks,

EL

Hi EL!

Thanks for your kind response. This is a challenging thread for me to be involved in - but I think it's good for me too. Good practice. I'm gonna try and be more concise - since my posts seem to go long <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> . But alos because I want to minimize circular discussions etc. Please don't take it as abrubt or rude. I want to practice my skills of finding and sticking to the issue at hand <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Hope ya don't mind... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

ok...

About SF

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel that she just felt more comfortable with the way things were and my not complaining, pressuring or questioning things, that she just continued on our broken down path. I definitely struggled and forced myself to not make a move towards SF or anything. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is not a good strategy to maintain for such a long time. I'm wondering if you had felt that you were making progress towards SF it would have felt better? Mys has got this covered as far as the win-win strategy... but I just wanted to say that that must have been hard for you and I'm sorry for your hurt. That's not a good sit.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Unfortunately, I have left myself to carry the entire bag-o-crap around by myself. A person can physically only do this for so long before they become ill - AGAIN. Then when I finally break down and want to see some progress, say a month later and I'm in an MC session, she always can conveniently pull the trump card out and say, things cannot happen on a time table.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You need to put down the crap. Let it go. Feel better? Okay. It is reasonable for your wife to create her own timetable. It is not reason for her timetable to be, essentially, no change. So what that means is you two need to first build agreement... (I love when you talk about this Mys!)

Now Mys can better instruct you in this, but here's my take...
I think I hear you saying that you both realize that an affectionateless marriage is a problem. Good. Maybe that should be a concrete discussion with W to make sure. Then it becomes a matter of having a seperate conversation about process. That seems to be where you're at. You and your wife need to communicate in a way that makes everyone feel safe and heard (mys has rules about this...) and come up with a way of increasing affection (NOT SF) that assures you progress is being made, but allows your wife to also feel safe.

Now how does this relate to SF? IN my book, and likely your wife's... feeling safe with affection is the prerequisite to feeling safe with SF. One must feel good about touching and being close in general, before more sexual touching feels safe or good. Meaning you won't get SF right away... but you will be building towards it in a way that assures you progress is being made, but also allows your wife to feel safe and an equal partner.

About the Spa:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I agree, except she picked what she wanted and then gave it to me to book. I will do what I can to get her in </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The no-power-play response? "Thanks for looking at it honey, I'll give them a call and see what I can do *smile*." If you get her in, let her know and be excited for her - don't make a big deal out of how long she took, because you were still able to get her in . In the event that you can't get her in... say something like "Sorry honey, they were all booked up for x,y, and z. Let me know if you have thoughts on something else you want to do that day, or we can just play it by ear or just chill out" Don't take responsibility for them being booked, just tell her, mention the options (if you want), and let her manage her emotions. Don't dwell. what was that mys? Oh yeah... SEP

The sink:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I said, "do you remmember when you made me start using the basket ot not clutter the sink area?" She said, "yeah." I said, "well I find it ironic because you are leaving the sink area a mess." She said, "well I kind of gotten out of that habit." It was dropped then. I mean, really, what is a person to do in this situation. It is not the biggest problem in the World, but it does upset me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If this is a topic you want to focus on... be aware that you have differnet needs and come to an agreement. Before, she wanted it clean and you didn't. The solution you came to was that you would use the basket ( I do something like this too as the messy one). Now you need a new solution... you can lose your basket and you can both have your stuff out, or she can use a basket too. The conversation maybe would have been more effective if you kept it about you... instead of saying she makes it a mess, you could have said "how funny *in a nice tone - not a sarcastic one*, I think I've gottne used to it being clean and now we've reversed roles! haha. How should we handle this?" and then find a solution....

SF again:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> For a man, the first rung is SF for the other items to fall into place. Therefore, why is it expected that we need to go up the ladder your way? Why is our way less important than yours?

to why the man is expected to make the great gift of the giver and suck it up, but the woman caould not possibly be asked to do something similar? I find this extremely unfair and confusing.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think anyone's needs are more important than anyone else's. But I do think some needs are more basic, and others could be considered "advanced". Or more challenging.

For me (nota ll women though), SF is more "advanced" It is the "Z" for me. X and Y that must happen before Z might include emotional connection and safe affection. I need those before I can do Z. This doesn't mean I need them to be 100% perfect, but if they aren't there - SF won't be a good experience for me. So the process to get to SF must include improvements in those.

You make it sound as though it is unfair and you are getting a raw deal. I think, in truth, that there are other ENs that are like this. And that your wife might have similar thoughts, that she wants "C", but you need to learn or accomplish A and B first before C will happen.

i.e.:

Let's say... perfect empathetic conversation is your wife's "C". She wants it. She wants it now. So much that she struggles on the level that you struggle with SF.

But in order for you to do "C"... in order for you to fully understand her side and give her complete empathy... you must first do A and B. Maybe you must first feel understood yourself. Maybe you must first trust that your conversation won't escalate to yelling, maybe your power struggle is such that you aren't willing to put down your power weapons and see your wife's point of view and tell her that.... because you don't trust her to not take advantage of you with your weapons down. So even though your wife wants C. It's unfair that she's not getting C. She needs to know that A and B have to happen first before she gets C. And it will be hard for her to not have C until you both go through A and B, but it's a part of the process.

and just a note: I did not pull this example out of a hat. I'm guessing it's a real issue in your M. Think on it a while...

Back to the SF discussion:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I understand what you are saying and a win-win is fantastic; but, that would require not putting SF on any perverbial back burner. It would be improving SF along with everything else. Your statement in the second paragraph is defintely contradictory to a win-win. It proposes a lose (for a while) - win and then hopefully a win - win. I do really understand what you are saying.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you see now how putting something on the back burner ("C") until and B are done is not only a good idea - it might be necessary? Not because you "lose" by putting it back there, but because the process that will create win-win for everyone has steps A and B as requirements before C

Maybe it helps to throw away the analogy of the stovetop. And got to the ladder. Rung Issue #3 is still there, but you gotta focus your energy on Rung issues 1 and 2 first. If you try and jump to 3, you'll fall. If you stare at it and never look at 1 and 2, you won't make progress. But if you focus first on 1, and then on 2, 3 will come into view in it's own time and you will overcome it.

Does this help any?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My previous things I wrote were to try and understand why it is inherently not fair on the guy and the man is expected to follow the path the woman needs for recovery versus the path the man would naturally need. I am prepaired to follow my W's necessary plan, which entails my giving up what I directly need and potentially could cause resentment internally. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you might better be served by keeping in mind that your wife is also probably needing things that aren't happening. Like my example above (A, B, and C). I just wanted to point that out. It does you no good to insist to yourself that you are getting nothing and your wife is getting everything. I think you, in a clear moment, would agree that neither of you are perfectly happy right now. There are problems in your M. You are not getting SF. That much we know. But it is also probably true that your wife's ENs aren't perfectly filled either.

I'm all for a rant/vent/woe is me pity party... but realize that doing so won't actually make the problem better. I believe that this is hard for you. You'r needs aren't being met. It sucks. But I don't believe that the sucking is a one sided experience in your M. And it needs to improve for both of you. We've established that... now it's time to decide what to do about it.

So maybe in the future... seperate in your mind the parts of your self talk/self analysis/problem solving that is a vent... and the part that is problem solving.

Now to the part that has been in my mind allllllll daaayyyyyyy...

Tell me... do you see the similarities between these situations?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She said, "fine, and said to our S that daddy does not want the TV on." This bothered me because we had reached an agreement and she not only broke the agreement, but tried to give blame to me to our S to make me look bad. I said that this was not fair and that we had mutually agreed. She said, what do you want? I turned the TV off, it is done! I said, no, it is the point that you dismissed our agreement one day later and then tried to give me sole blame in front of our son. She said, there you go again, keeping it going. I said, I am not keeping it going, I am trying to discuss what actually happened and what made me feel bad. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I wanted to move onto what I felt was a bigger issue. I started off with some background on how I realized I screwed up on our anniversary and put my W in a situation that caused her to put enormous pressure on herself. My W then wanted to go through all the details of the anniversary again (trying to "defend" herself). I said there is no reason to defend yourself because I accept that I made a mistake not caring about your feelings and putting you into that situation. She did not accept this and said she wanted to finish. So she painfully recapped the entire evening again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you?

This is what I see... there is a conflict... the one "in the wrong" tries to then resolve it by </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"fine, and said to our S that daddy does not want the TV on." or how I realized I screwed up on our anniversary and put my W in a situation that caused her to put enormous pressure on herself</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Something about the resolution feels dismissive to the hurt party. In your case, you felt you W was blaming you. In your W's case, she felt you were blaming her (guessing).

So then the hurt party, in an attempt to feel heard, tries to review the agreement/scenario/situation to demonstrate why they have a right to feel hurt. The resolving party feels as though it is a useless endeavor - after all - it was resolved.

I think some basic communication skills are in order... Both of you did a poor job of appreciating and empathizing with the other. You probably would have been ok if your W had said something like:

"fine, and said to our S that daddy does not want the TV on *"and we discussed it and agreed to keep it off"* This would have supported your stance and made you feel heard, while valuing your opinion It would have not felt blaming to you like the original.

You wife probably would have liked something like:
how I realized I screwed up on our anniversary and contributed to a situation a situation that *"created pressure for her - which I'm sure is hard and was not my intent at all*".This would have supported her stance and made her feel heard, while valuing her opinion It would have not felt blaming to her like the original.

Just an interesting observation. Maybe a good starting place (like MYs said) would be on communication. Empathy in particular. And reflective listening.

I'll let Mys take on you last post to her... but my parting words before I head off to bed...


I think it is time for you and wife to decide what your Rung #1 issue is. You could even pick 2 maybe. But it's time. You're both running around making LB withdrawals with no plan in mind. What would she say you are both working on?

If I had a vote - I would say communication and affection. Those seem like Rung #1 issues that get you where you want to go - to both of you feeling safe, heard, appreciated, and loved through empathetic communication - Rung 3 of better communication and SF - Rung 3 of affection)

But you need to build agreement with the Mrs. on what is important and basic to you both.

And you both need to work on your negaitve habits. I, like Mys, see your builing resentment and frustration as a hinderance. YOu need to find a way to manage that on your own. Maybe journaling. Maybe exercise. For your wife, it sounds like she holds on to her hurts and defenses, and tends towards avoiding change. Those are things she needs to figure out and work on. HINT: It is not helpful for you to tell you W the issues she needs to be working on. Focus on yourself. And focus onthe things you decide to tackle together - your Rung#1 issues.

Well - it still turned out to be long... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> hope you don't mind! I'm headed out this weekend, so I hope you and W have a great vacation. Maybe reread Mys' "Guide to a succesful vaca. for EL" (i.e the parts on SEP and focusing on you you you - letting your W focus on her her her).

night!

lfc
*phew...wipes brow*

Hello LFC and all,

I had an interesting morning this morning. My mom has come to visit because she is taking our S to her house 8 hours away for a week. My S looks forward to this once a year as "his vacation." My mom looks forward to this because she does not get to see him much, he is her only grand child, and she is retired now.

Anyway, part of my "trust issues" in women started with my mom. As I have posted the details in my original first post, I will give a brief description here. When I was 8 I picked up the phone at home to find my mother on the phone with another man in an intimate conversation. I understood thia was wrong and did not like it. I found my mom and told her to hang up and tell this person she would never talk to him again! I was crying, she was crying and she got off the phone. I innocently felt the issue was over. Obviously, I was young.

Several months later my brother and I are at a baseball game (little league) and our mom was there watching us. My dad was late coming from work. At the end of the game, mom and dad had a discussion (argument) in the parking lot. Mom took my brother and I to a hotel and she was crying. I had an idea of what was going on, my brother did not. Sure enough, this "guy" comes to visit mom at the hotel. I was extremely mad. Anyway you get the idea. My mom and dad were divorced when I was 10 or 11. I do not have a lot of memories from this childhood anymore. Mom ended up marrying this man and I had to give her away at her wedding.

Anyway, since all of this, it has been hard for me to be close with my mom on any level. So I get up early this morning because I cannot sleep and had a nightmare (my W cheating on me). My mom wakes up early too and comes down stairs to find me. She knows our M is not great right now and has motherly concerns. She starts in with me about how last night I reminded her of my dad and why she left my dad. She said that it seems like I make it difficult on my W when she does things that give her selfworth. For instance, my W has decided to represent our section of the neighborhood and be on the home owner's assoc.. Two days ago she had a commitee meeting that required me to leave work (not getting all my work done and putting me in a bind for the rest of the week) to be home for our S. I get home and she takes off. She tells me there are two commitee meetings, but she is only going to one. I said, "well see you tomorrow, because I know you cannot help yourself." She says, she is not going to go to this other meeting. Our S was at school all day and did not get to spend much time with mom (he is 4). So S and I go for a bike ride and end up near the club house (on playground equipment). This was about 2 hours after W left. We could see that the room she was meeting in shut the lights off and knew she was done. We rode our bikes around to her car thinking we would surprise her. No W. We ride back around the club house to find W in the second meeting. S and I ride our bikes home and W beats us home. I said to her, "I knew you could not resist." This was 2.5 hours after I got home and time for S to go to bed. I am all in favor of my W doing things to improve her feeling of selfworth. I just am not ready for it to take center stage in our lives. I am not at work because I choose that it is a fun and nice place to spend most of my life.

Anyway, my mom was not around for this, she came yesterday. I had to work late yesterday and left work at 7:00 PM. Before I left, I called home and my W tells me that she got an email and that there was another meeting at the club house. She said she did not feel like going. I said great. Then she said that the emailed asked if any of the 9 board memebers could go and unlock the club house for the meeting at 6:45 PM. I said, why do you always have to be the one to do things? She said no one else is responding. I said, "do what you have to do." I got home at 7:15 and she was just getting back. It does not take a half hour to drive 0.25 miles and unlock a door, especially when we have company and our S at home! So I was not happy that this community thing my W has gotten into, now rules our lives. If I complain, then I am not supporting her. I feel if I do not complain, then I am supporting our M continuing to fall apart and saying I am alright with my W finding something else to put as more important than our family. So I guess this comes out in my demeanor and apparently I cannot help it.

My mom warned me about making my W feel bad about doing something that makes her feel worthwhile. I am hurt my W cannot feel a sense of worth from me or our S and our house, her landscaping, etc.. What is enough for her? So I just do not know what to do anymore. Am I supposed to just forgo all my feelings and concerns and let her do whatever she wants (irrespective of how I feel it may be negative to things)? I really do not want to push my W away and I am fearing that I am still doing this. Please help me to understand what is healthy and what is not. I believe I am truly not seeing things as I should. I am also concerned that if I try to talk about our M with my W she gets upset because she feels we talk about our M too much. She has already mentioned that she would be able to have fun and relax on our trip if I did not try to talk about our relationship. Lets see, shutsdown SF, shutsdown affection, shutsdown communication. I might as well go on this trip with a neighbor.

LFC - Thanks so much for working on this difficult thread. I appreciate your efforts.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thanks for your kind response. This is a challenging thread for me to be involved in - but I think it's good for me too. Good practice. I'm gonna try and be more concise - since my posts seem to go long . But alos because I want to minimize circular discussions etc. Please don't take it as abrubt or rude. I want to practice my skills of finding and sticking to the issue at hand Hope ya don't mind...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I do not mind. Whatever you need. I could obviously use the practise as well.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is not a good strategy to maintain for such a long time. I'm wondering if you had felt that you were making progress towards SF it would have felt better? Mys has got this covered as far as the win-win strategy... but I just wanted to say that that must have been hard for you and I'm sorry for your hurt. That's not a good sit.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree. This is not a good strategy and I will never follow it again. Thanks for understanding how hard it was.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You need to put down the crap. Let it go. Feel better? Okay. It is reasonable for your wife to create her own timetable. It is not reason for her timetable to be, essentially, no change. So what that means is you two need to first build agreement... (I love when you talk about this Mys!)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We agree that I need to trust her more with situations and guys. We agree she needs to learn to trust me emotional. We agree we need to communicate better. We agree that affection is lacking in our M. We agree SF is lacking (for me) in our M. We do not have a specific laid out plan other than my being aware of how or what I say and my W learning through time she can trust me emotionally. This is as concrete as I can put it. I wish I had a more concrete list to go by.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now Mys can better instruct you in this, but here's my take...
I think I hear you saying that you both realize that an affectionateless marriage is a problem. Good. Maybe that should be a concrete discussion with W to make sure. Then it becomes a matter of having a seperate conversation about process. That seems to be where you're at. You and your wife need to communicate in a way that makes everyone feel safe and heard (mys has rules about this...) and come up with a way of increasing affection (NOT SF) that assures you progress is being made, but allows your wife to also feel safe. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not know how to assure me things are progressing with affection other than my W being more affectionate.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now how does this relate to SF? IN my book, and likely your wife's... feeling safe with affection is the prerequisite to feeling safe with SF. One must feel good about touching and being close in general, before more sexual touching feels safe or good. Meaning you won't get SF right away... but you will be building towards it in a way that assures you progress is being made, but also allows your wife to feel safe and an equal partner.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK great. I have stated my thoughts on the fairness of this (and realize that not everything is fair), however, I am prepaird to forgo life and my M being fair to me for a short time to try and kick start the improvement of our whole M. I just fear inside, this does not back fire and my W ends up taking me more for granted than anything and then in the end loosing what if any respect she still has for me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The no-power-play response? "Thanks for looking at it honey, I'll give them a call and see what I can do *smile*." If you get her in, let her know and be excited for her - don't make a big deal out of how long she took, because you were still able to get her in . In the event that you can't get her in... say something like "Sorry honey, they were all booked up for x,y, and z. Let me know if you have thoughts on something else you want to do that day, or we can just play it by ear or just chill out" Don't take responsibility for them being booked, just tell her, mention the options (if you want), and let her manage her emotions. Don't dwell. what was that mys? Oh yeah... SEP </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree. I have not had time to book the SPA for her now because I have been so busy at work. I need to get on this. She asked me last night if I had done this.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If this is a topic you want to focus on... be aware that you have differnet needs and come to an agreement. Before, she wanted it clean and you didn't. The solution you came to was that you would use the basket ( I do something like this too as the messy one). Now you need a new solution... you can lose your basket and you can both have your stuff out, or she can use a basket too. The conversation maybe would have been more effective if you kept it about you... instead of saying she makes it a mess, you could have said "how funny *in a nice tone - not a sarcastic one*, I think I've gottne used to it being clean and now we've reversed roles! haha. How should we handle this?" and then find a solution....
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don't think anyone's needs are more important than anyone else's. But I do think some needs are more basic, and others could be considered "advanced". Or more challenging.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will agree to disagree on this point because SF is about as basic as it gets for a man.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> For me (nota ll women though), SF is more "advanced" It is the "Z" for me. X and Y that must happen before Z might include emotional connection and safe affection. I need those before I can do Z. This doesn't mean I need them to be 100% perfect, but if they aren't there - SF won't be a good experience for me. So the process to get to SF must include improvements in those.

You make it sound as though it is unfair and you are getting a raw deal. I think, in truth, that there are other ENs that are like this. And that your wife might have similar thoughts, that she wants "C", but you need to learn or accomplish A and B first before C will happen.

i.e.:

Let's say... perfect empathetic conversation is your wife's "C". She wants it. She wants it now. So much that she struggles on the level that you struggle with SF.

But in order for you to do "C"... in order for you to fully understand her side and give her complete empathy... you must first do A and B. Maybe you must first feel understood yourself. Maybe you must first trust that your conversation won't escalate to yelling, maybe your power struggle is such that you aren't willing to put down your power weapons and see your wife's point of view and tell her that.... because you don't trust her to not take advantage of you with your weapons down. So even though your wife wants C. It's unfair that she's not getting C. She needs to know that A and B have to happen first before she gets C. And it will be hard for her to not have C until you both go through A and B, but it's a part of the process.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand what you are saying. My one point, still, is that if each of us accept that we have different "most important ENs" and understand that one of us has to give theirs up for a little bit in the name of our M, the other has a responsibility to the other to realize what this means to their partner and respect that they cannot drag their feet on working on things because their partner will not survive long doing this, and it will not be a fault of your partners for not surviving. It may not be your fault either, but it is this basic understanding that I am after more.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do you see now how putting something on the back burner ("C") until and B are done is not only a good idea - it might be necessary? Not because you "lose" by putting it back there, but because the process that will create win-win for everyone has steps A and B as requirements before C

Maybe it helps to throw away the analogy of the stovetop. And got to the ladder. Rung Issue #3 is still there, but you gotta focus your energy on Rung issues 1 and 2 first. If you try and jump to 3, you'll fall. If you stare at it and never look at 1 and 2, you won't make progress. But if you focus first on 1, and then on 2, 3 will come into view in it's own time and you will overcome it.

Does this help any?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. I understand and will give this a try for better or worse.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think you might better be served by keeping in mind that your wife is also probably needing things that aren't happening. Like my example above (A, B, and C). I just wanted to point that out. It does you no good to insist to yourself that you are getting nothing and your wife is getting everything. I think you, in a clear moment, would agree that neither of you are perfectly happy right now. There are problems in your M. You are not getting SF. That much we know. But it is also probably true that your wife's ENs aren't perfectly filled either. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right here on all counts.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm all for a rant/vent/woe is me pity party... but realize that doing so won't actually make the problem better. I believe that this is hard for you. You'r needs aren't being met. It sucks. But I don't believe that the sucking is a one sided experience in your M. And it needs to improve for both of you. We've established that... now it's time to decide what to do about it.

So maybe in the future... seperate in your mind the parts of your self talk/self analysis/problem solving that is a vent... and the part that is problem solving.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is fine and I know I am guilty of the pity party thing. I will try to keep it on topic. Thanks for telling me this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Tell me... do you see the similarities between these situations?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. Thanks for the 2x4.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Just an interesting observation. Maybe a good starting place (like MYs said) would be on communication. Empathy in particular. And reflective listening.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right. I will try harder. Unfortunately, I cannot make my W do this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And you both need to work on your negaitve habits. I, like Mys, see your builing resentment and frustration as a hinderance. YOu need to find a way to manage that on your own. Maybe journaling. Maybe exercise. For your wife, it sounds like she holds on to her hurts and defenses, and tends towards avoiding change. Those are things she needs to figure out and work on. HINT: It is not helpful for you to tell you W the issues she needs to be working on. Focus on yourself. And focus onthe things you decide to tackle together - your Rung#1 issues.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK fine. I would start to do this, but I have one problem. Currently, it is an LB for me to bring anything up about our R or M. I do not know how to talk to her or when to bring it up anymore. I do not know how to have her be interested in discussing things. Any help and advice here would be great. Unfortunately, any communications with her such as verbal or written pertaining to us is going to put her off. How do I get through this so she will be willing to communicate and talk about us more without her immediately having a defensive or "bothered" attitude? This is where I need some real good pointers and advice.

Thanks,

EL

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Please help me to understand what is healthy and what is not. I believe I am truly not seeing things as I should. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah. You’re grasping her too tightly here, my friend. I really, really try to empathize with your point of view but this behavior is not going to get you anywhere productive.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We ride back around the club house to find W in the second meeting. S and I ride our bikes home and W beats us home. I said to her, "I knew you could not resist." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, do you remember what LFC told you about being humble even when you’re right? I understand you were upset but this would have been a good time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My mom warned me about making my W feel bad about doing something that makes her feel worthwhile. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your mother, despite what other faults she may have, is right about this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am hurt my W cannot feel a sense of worth from me or our S and our house, her landscaping, etc.. What is enough for her? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, the two things aren’t mutually exclusive, Extremely Lost. She can feel a sense of worth from you, your son, your house, her landscaping, etc. But, she might feel a DIFFERENT sense of accomplishment from being a part of something that is OUTSIDE the family unit. You can’t fence her in that tightly. She’s going to rebel. She needs to be able to do things with people outside your family sometimes. And, it needs to be OK for those things to be important.

I’m not entirely sure what really bothers you about this council membership. Is it that you had to take time off of work (were inconvenienced) or is it because you are worried that she has something outside the family unit to focus on? Or, is it that you’re worried that she’s being dishonest somehow? Scared she’ll meet someone? Can you tell me about how you feel?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Then she said that the emailed asked if any of the 9 board memebers could go and unlock the club house for the meeting at 6:45 PM. I said, why do you always have to be the one to do things? She said no one else is responding. I said, "do what you have to do." I got home at 7:15 and she was just getting back. It does not take a half hour to drive 0.25 miles and unlock a door, especially when we have company and our S at home! So I was not happy that this community thing my W has gotten into, now rules our lives. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She was gone for 30 minutes. Perhaps she didn’t leave the instant she set down the phone. Perhaps she walked through the building and turned on the lights. Perhaps she felt badly about leaving the building unlocked and unattended and waited a few moments for someone to show up before leaving (I know I’d have done this). Perhaps someone was there waiting for her and she helped that person carry in materials for the meeting and chatted for a few moments. Is that really on the level of ruling your life?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If I complain, then I am not supporting her. I feel if I do not complain, then I am supporting our M continuing to fall apart and saying I am alright with my W finding something else to put as more important than our family. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, I’m not seeing how being gone for 1 evening for a couple of council meetings and unlocking a door is putting something ahead of your family life. Let’s pretend she didn’t go. Aside from you not being behind in your work, what do you think SHE would be doing that didn’t get done?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She has already mentioned that she would be able to have fun and relax on our trip if I did not try to talk about our relationship. Lets see, shutsdown SF, shutsdown affection, shutsdown communication. I might as well go on this trip with a neighbor. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, you know.. it sounds to me like you have a lot of things you can talk about besides your relationship. I still think you should address the affection issue but I won’t push it on you. There are so many wonderful things you can talk about that does not include your relationship, Extremely Lost. Look at this trip as a chance to explore your wife’s views and feelings on … wine, scenery, architecture, whatever you run into. You can learn a lot about someone by just learning how her tastes run. You wanted this trip to be about discovery. Well, discover what ELSE you can talk about. Let her talk.. maybe you can find out what SHE likes to talk about, since apparently, your relationship isn’t one of those things.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You and me both. I am getting confused too. I believe we are working on my trust issues and my not participating in circular arguments and my not being jealous of my W. I do not know what my W is supposed to be working on any more. I believe, as she says, "she is giving things time for her to learn to feel safe and comfortable in trusting me with her emotions." Sounds to me like she is just waiting for the solution to drop out of the sky. Granted I think some things take time, but some things take a push once in a while. There is nothing wrong with both of these if they work. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Blah. See what happens when we take our eye off the ball? You never said when your vacation was..(soon?).. assuming it’s not immediately, this would be a good place to start with your MC.

Now. I do NOT mean that you assign your wife tasks. I mean that your job is to find out what, if anything, she’s working on. Just like that. Treat the question like you’re asking her the time. Keep a strict hold on your emotions when she answers. And, keep it about YOU.

“You know, with all the vacation planning and such lately, I have to confess that I’ve lost track of just exactly what and how each of us is working on to make this marriage better. I really think it would help ME if we could talk about that today. <Wife>, what do you think?”

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I feel for you and your struggles. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, thank you. Things are improving… but like everyone else, I’m impatient.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I really hope you are right and that someday she can appreciate that I have actually gone through a great deal as well. How am I handling my resentment? Well, I am going away for several days to drink a lot of wine! I am also just trying to not fire any more shots at myself before the trip. I am spending a lot of time on this post. I am reading at night. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fair enough. Not firing any more shots is an excellent plan but don’t be too hard on yourself. That’s my job. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Habits are hard to break and no one is perfect.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is why I was asking, why could she not do a simple thing for me to make me happy when she knew that there were much larger things that I have (FOR THE SHORT TERM) accepted being abscent? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, let’s face it, she could have. But, that truth aside, I don’t think she sees the two things as linked. In other words, she probably doesn’t think “Well, no sex means I should … “ This is part and parcel of our earlier discussion on whether or not she’s going to see RIGHT NOW your pain and what you’re going through. Right now, in this moment, she’s blinded by her own tears. You have to gently wipe those away first. You know you’re both suffering. She may know it too, but she’s too focused on trying to heal her hurts right now. And, since her hurts need to be healed in order for your relationship to grow and flourish, try not to be too hard on her about that. OK?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> OK fine. I would start to do this, but I have one problem. Currently, it is an LB for me to bring anything up about our R or M. I do not know how to talk to her or when to bring it up anymore. I do not know how to have her be interested in discussing things. Any help and advice here would be great. Unfortunately, any communications with her such as verbal or written pertaining to us is going to put her off. How do I get through this so she will be willing to communicate and talk about us more without her immediately having a defensive or "bothered" attitude? This is where I need some real good pointers and advice. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you have the tools for a good start on this. First, we have to diffuse the “loaded” quality that your words convey so that your TRUE message comes across. Extremely Lost, I know your intentions are good. And, I know it frustrates you to no end that your wife doesn’t “hear” the message you’re trying to convey. But, the responsibility for sending that message begins with you. So, practice, practice, practice unloading that gun.

You can do it.

Mys

Myschae, how are you doing today? First off, we leave this Saturday for our trip and we get back Wednesday evening. So, we do not have a lot of time before hand. I am also working long days today and tomorrow that cannot be helped. My mom is in town and leaves tomorrow with our S.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yeah. You’re grasping her too tightly here, my friend. I really, really try to empathize with your point of view but this behavior is not going to get you anywhere productive.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, do you remember what LFC told you about being humble even when you’re right? I understand you were upset but this would have been a good time.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Gotcha.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Your mother, despite what other faults she may have, is right about this.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But I do not see that I am doing this, and I really want to because I want to stop it if I really am doing it. I just do not know what to do to allow myself to see that I am doing this. I thought I did this, this morning. I woke up before my alarm (could not sleep). I went down stairs and actually remember turning my alarm off. When I went back upstairs to get ready for work, my W tells me that my alarm went off and I should have turned it off. I said, "I did and I do not know why it went off." While I got ready for work, I started thinking and realizing that my alarm must have went off because she would not make this up. I then thought that my reaction and words said, I do not believe you and you are wrong because I turned it off. So when I went to give her a hug and a kiss goodbye, I said, I am sorry about the alarm, I thought I had turned it off, but obviously I made a mistake. She said, enough already, we already talked about that. So, you can see how I really only have one shot at getting anything right here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You know, the two things aren’t mutually exclusive, Extremely Lost. She can feel a sense of worth from you, your son, your house, her landscaping, etc. But, she might feel a DIFFERENT sense of accomplishment from being a part of something that is OUTSIDE the family unit. You can’t fence her in that tightly. She’s going to rebel. She needs to be able to do things with people outside your family sometimes. And, it needs to be OK for those things to be important. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I’m not entirely sure what really bothers you about this council membership. Is it that you had to take time off of work (were inconvenienced) or is it because you are worried that she has something outside the family unit to focus on? Or, is it that you’re worried that she’s being dishonest somehow? Scared she’ll meet someone? Can you tell me about how you feel?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not happy that it is starting to effect my work, which pays the bills. I worry that this thing outside the family unit will help her to loose focus on doing what is necessary for the family. She is not being dishonest somehow. I am scared that she will meet someone else and this is from my personal trust issues and fears. I know that this is not her fault and that it is something I must deal with.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She was gone for 30 minutes. Perhaps she didn’t leave the instant she set down the phone. Perhaps she walked through the building and turned on the lights. Perhaps she felt badly about leaving the building unlocked and unattended and waited a few moments for someone to show up before leaving (I know I’d have done this). Perhaps someone was there waiting for her and she helped that person carry in materials for the meeting and chatted for a few moments. Is that really on the level of ruling your life?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand this and do not question what she was doing. I question her choice about when to do it. My mom just got into town with in the hour she left. Our S was taking a nap. I was on my way home. Nine total people were asked to possibly do this and she always picks up the ball to voulenteer no matter what seems to be going on with the family. I am not trying to keep her barefoot and pregnant. I am a champion of my W. I want her to be happy and succeed at whatever it is she want to do. I have tried to get her interested in going back to school, which she had always said interests her. I am just having a problem with her dropping other responsiblities for these new ones. When someone does extra curricular activities, they are just that - EXTRA not instead of.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, you know.. it sounds to me like you have a lot of things you can talk about besides your relationship. I still think you should address the affection issue but I won’t push it on you. There are so many wonderful things you can talk about that does not include your relationship, Extremely Lost. Look at this trip as a chance to explore your wife’s views and feelings on … wine, scenery, architecture, whatever you run into. You can learn a lot about someone by just learning how her tastes run. You wanted this trip to be about discovery. Well, discover what ELSE you can talk about. Let her talk.. maybe you can find out what SHE likes to talk about, since apparently, your relationship isn’t one of those things. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. You are right. I personnally wish we could talk about our R though.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Blah. See what happens when we take our eye off the ball? You never said when your vacation was..(soon?).. assuming it’s not immediately, this would be a good place to start with your MC.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is immediately.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Fair enough. Not firing any more shots is an excellent plan but don’t be too hard on yourself. That’s my job. Habits are hard to break and no one is perfect.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I promise to not unemploy you.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, let’s face it, she could have. But, that truth aside, I don’t think she sees the two things as linked. In other words, she probably doesn’t think “Well, no sex means I should … “ This is part and parcel of our earlier discussion on whether or not she’s going to see RIGHT NOW your pain and what you’re going through. Right now, in this moment, she’s blinded by her own tears. You have to gently wipe those away first. You know you’re both suffering. She may know it too, but she’s too focused on trying to heal her hurts right now. And, since her hurts need to be healed in order for your relationship to grow and flourish, try not to be too hard on her about that. OK?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK. I think it is sinking in. I have things that I cannot see that I am doing to hurt my W. However, I have started to "wake up" and see how other things I am doing are hurting her. Therefore, I feel ashamed and sad that I have been hurting my W because I certainly would not be hurting her deliberately. Now, assuming she is under some magical spell similar to me where she actually still cannot see much of how she is hurting me, but I now can see some of the results of my actions, it is actually more selfish of me to be asking about myself because I know have a bigger view of the picture than my W currently has. Is this what you have been trying to tell me all along?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think you have the tools for a good start on this. First, we have to diffuse the “loaded” quality that your words convey so that your TRUE message comes across. Extremely Lost, I know your intentions are good. And, I know it frustrates you to no end that your wife doesn’t “hear” the message you’re trying to convey. But, the responsibility for sending that message begins with you. So, practice, practice, practice unloading that gun. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I really do need help with this. Where/how should I start? I am trying to think of how I say things, but obviously I am not getting it if my own mom was around for an hour and picked up on it.

Thanks,

EL

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Myschae, how are you doing today? First off, we leave this Saturday for our trip and we get back Wednesday evening. So, we do not have a lot of time before hand. I am also working long days today and tomorrow that cannot be helped. My mom is in town and leaves tomorrow with our S. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’m doing well, thank you for asking. Ah, I see. Yeah, you’re right. Let it lie.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I thought I did this, this morning. I woke up before my alarm (could not sleep). I went down stairs and actually remember turning my alarm off. When I went back upstairs to get ready for work, my W tells me that my alarm went off and I should have turned it off. I said, "I did and I do not know why it went off." While I got ready for work, I started thinking and realizing that my alarm must have went off because she would not make this up. I then thought that my reaction and words said, I do not believe you and you are wrong because I turned it off. So when I went to give her a hug and a kiss goodbye, I said, I am sorry about the alarm, I thought I had turned it off, but obviously I made a mistake. She said, enough already, we already talked about that. So, you can see how I really only have one shot at getting anything right here. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Try not to draw conclusions too quickly. I think there are two things happening here. One, this isn’t a magic formula where if you utter the right phrases it makes the problem vanish. It will take TIME and CONSISTENT behavior for the change to happen. You handled the alarm clock issue perfectly. So, why didn’t she react better? For one thing, you probably caught her off guard. She’s a little suspicious so fell back into defensive behavior. Give it a little time.. and if she’s still there, I can give you some ways to gently change that. But, right now, let her get used to it. Also, right now, you’re still learning. So, by definition your actions will be inconsistent. You’ll miss it sometimes. So, cut everyone some slack.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am not happy that it is starting to effect my work, which pays the bills. I worry that this thing outside the family unit will help her to loose focus on doing what is necessary for the family. She is not being dishonest somehow. I am scared that she will meet someone else and this is from my personal trust issues and fears. I know that this is not her fault and that it is something I must deal with. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand.

Perhaps there is some way to mitigate the issues with your work if she plans a little better. As for her loosing focus, I think that giving her something else to focus on – time away can be beneficial. It doesn’t sound like a huge time commitment (every night, all night). Just as a vacation can help you relax and refocus at work, having something outside to get away for awhile might help her relax and be able to invest more heavily.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have tried to get her interested in going back to school, which she had always said interests her. I am just having a problem with her dropping other responsiblities for these new ones. When someone does extra curricular activities, they are just that - EXTRA not instead of. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do understand what you’re saying. And, I agree on some levels. I understand you question her choice of how to manage this issue. But, it was her issue to manage and, in the end, what needed to be accomplished… was, in fact, accomplished. She didn’t do it in a way that you would have liked. That’s going to happen on occasion.

The problem with “extra-curricular” activities being considered ONLY “extra” is that it makes it very, very hard to invest in them. I would find it very difficult to commit myself to a project if I wasn’t convinced I could perform it adequately. That means that I need some leeway in order to manage my life around the activities I want to do. Now, there has to be balance. If my activity took me away from home so much that I wasn’t able to spend 15 hours a week of couple time with my H, that would be a problem. If my activity involved non-marriage friendly activities (inappropriate contact with other men), that would be a problem. If my activity was a constant drain on the resources of the family, that would be a problem.

Otherwise, I don’t think it’s unhealthy or unreasonable for her to expect you to contribute to her success with an occasional inconvenience or, to ask your Mother to keep her eye on a sleeping child. If you want to support her, that means elevating the things she feels are important to a level of importance in your mind. As long as things aren’t getting out of hand (you’re in danger of loosing your job because you’re gone so much) then build FLEXIBILITY into your life so that she has the room to fit her extra curricular activities in. It only becomes “instead of” if you insist on it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I personnally wish we could talk about our R though. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know you do. What’s more important to you right now? Is it her being able to relax and enjoy the trip or, your need to talk about the relationship? No one is really going to be able to prevent you from bringing it up, Extremely Lost. What you have been given is not instruction, it’s INFORMATION.

The DATA says that if you bring up relationship issues, your wife will not feel relaxed and enjoy the vacation.

Now, you have a choice. Assuming you believe the data to be true, (which seems reasonable considering it’s from a reliable source) you have to make a decision about which thing you want more: Your wife to relax and enjoy OR to fill your need to talk about the relationship on this trip. Pick one.

I’m hoping this will reframe this in your mind. You are making a conscious choice (in either direction) which is not your wife’s fault. In fact, she did what you’ve been asking her to do for a long time – give you information on how to make her happy. She did a GOOD thing. She was honest.

Now, I’m assuming your choice is made. I feel safe doing that because of what you’ve written so far. This does not mean that you will ALWAYS make the same choice. You get to make different choices later on. At some point, your need to discuss the relationship needs to take precedence over your wife’s discomfort. You just need to decide whether that time is now (your vacation) or later.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It is immediately. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, then, have a great time. Discover new things about wine, your wife, and California.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I promise to not unemploy you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hah! I fully expect to work myself out of this job. *winks*

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> OK. I think it is sinking in. I have things that I cannot see that I am doing to hurt my W. However, I have started to "wake up" and see how other things I am doing are hurting her. Therefore, I feel ashamed and sad that I have been hurting my W because I certainly would not be hurting her deliberately. Now, assuming she is under some magical spell similar to me where she actually still cannot see much of how she is hurting me, but I now can see some of the results of my actions, it is actually more selfish of me to be asking about myself because I know have a bigger view of the picture than my W currently has. Is this what you have been trying to tell me all along? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. You got it. You get 5 gold stars. ***** (those are gold, really they are)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I really do need help with this. Where/how should I start? I am trying to think of how I say things, but obviously I am not getting it if my own mom was around for an hour and picked up on it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you’re getting it just fine. You really did a wonderful job about the alarm clock this morning. Stand up and take a bow about that. You phrased that in terms of yourself and not her. Just keep on keepin’ on.

Mys

Thanks Myschae,

We'll see how tonight goes. I'll be back in the morning.

Have a great night!

EL

Well, nothing problematic happened last night. This morning my mom (who's leaving with our S this morning) mentions to me that her and my W talked about our R yesterday. My W told her how she feels I do not truat her and that she trusts me completely. Sh feels that she is paying for my old relationship's failures. She told my W that if anyone should mistrust someone, it should be her because I work long hours and am around other women at work. This does not bother her because she trusts me completely. My mom also said that my W needs this extra curicular activity (being on the home owners association and several comittees). My mom says that it would do my R with my W a lot of good if I could show her that I trust her with this.

Now I think I know everything that you guys would tell me here. I should trust her and let her find validation with this activity. The issues I have with my W doing this activity I have stated in an earlier post. However, I guess things are not fair in a M and I need to take the perverbial "leap of faith." I will be doing this while I feel I am being taken for granted and sat in an unfair situation. My W wants me to be the person who is in a M where everything is OK and I feel as thought my ENs are all being met (when in actuality they are not) in order for her to become the person who may be able to meet my ENs eventually. I guess my only choice is to follow this unfair path and hope for the best, taking comfort in knowing that I am doing all that I can if it goes bad, or to walk away and cut my losses. Well, I do not want to walk away, so I guess I know what to do. This is scary and extremely hard to do, but I will open myself up to further potential negatives in hopes for a more positive future. I just cannot help but think in the back of my mind, that by doing this, I am allowing the opportunity for my W to spend more time with other people, without me and thereby lay the ground work for her to fall in love with someone else. How do you show you care about what someone is doing, wish to be involved just to spend as much time with her as possible, but at the same time not smother her and make her feel like you are controling? I do not want to give her the impressions that I do not care what she does (giving her a green light to find someone else) while at the same time giving her the freedom she wants with this activity. Even last night she was talking to me about having one of the guys from the board over to help her with her computer. Her having another guy in our house while I am not there does bother me and in her eyes makes me a control freak.

On this trip, I am going to have fun for me.

Thanks,

EL

Extremely Lost

Good morning.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The issues I have with my W doing this activity I have stated in an earlier post. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand the issues that you have with your W doing this activity. But, have you stopped to consider what benefits could come from your wife doing this activity? Can you find some positives about the situation?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I will be doing this while I feel I am being taken for granted and sat in an unfair situation. My W wants me to be the person who is in a M where everything is OK and I feel as thought my ENs are all being met (when in actuality they are not) in order for her to become the person who may be able to meet my ENs eventually. I guess my only choice is to follow this unfair path and hope for the best, taking comfort in knowing that I am doing all that I can if it goes bad, or to walk away and cut my losses. Well, I do not want to walk away, so I guess I know what to do. This is scary and extremely hard to do, but I will open myself up to further potential negatives in hopes for a more positive future. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know it’s scary for you and that it’s hard for you to do. Don’t let your negative self talk run away with you. Keep focused on where you’re going not where you are at this moment.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I just cannot help but think in the back of my mind, that by doing this, I am allowing the opportunity for my W to spend more time with other people, without me and thereby lay the ground work for her to fall in love with someone else. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*sighs* Isn’t this an issue that you’re working to over come? You can’t cloister her away from other people, Extremely Lost. It isn’t fair to her. It isn’t healthy. This is your old insecurities talking to you – reject that message.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How do you show you care about what someone is doing, wish to be involved just to spend as much time with her as possible, but at the same time not smother her and make her feel like you are controling? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have to let her build her OWN life. Yes, you’re married. But that doesn’t mean that she doesn’t have her own interests and needs away from the marriage and family. She’s going to have to find her own path in life that fits her OWN definition of success. Her personal goals should be allowed to grow within the marriage and that means the marriage MUST make room for them. That does not mean that she doesn’t NEED you or that she leaves you BEHIND… but rather that you walk beside her in the journey of life. And, there will be times when she’s off pursuing her own interests for her own benefit away from the family.

Extremely Lost, there should be a balance to all things; including time away from the family. You and your son can’t be the only things allowed in her world. She needs the opportunity to be around other people. Yes, it’s scary for you. Yes, there is a potential that things could unbalance in the other direction. If that happens, then you work together to bring it back into line. Right now, it doesn’t sound like this is a huge time commitment on her part. And, yes, it’s time away from focus on the marriage and meeting your needs. But, she can’t focus on that 24/7.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do not want to give her the impressions that I do not care what she does (giving her a green light to find someone else) while at the same time giving her the freedom she wants with this activity. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What’s your alternative? If you tell her that she has to quit working on the committee will that solve the problem? It might keep her away from other people, but that doesn’t send the message that you want to send.

Again, I’m unsure how working on a committee implies having the green light to find someone else. Being around other people doesn’t mean she’s going to cheat on you, Extremely Lost.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Even last night she was talking to me about having one of the guys from the board over to help her with her computer. Her having another guy in our house while I am not there does bother me and in her eyes makes me a control freak. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, why not ask her to have him over while you’re there. AND THEN, you agree to be a 100% gracious host. No giving him the hairy eyeball.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> On this trip, I am going to have fun for me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good.

Now, chin up! Remember you’re working on trusting her and sending her the message that you are not trying to control her. Asking her to give up activities she enjoys because you’re afraid she’s going to find someone else is controlling behavior. One of the first signs of controlling behavior is trying to isolate a spouse from the outside world. Don’t do that, Extremely Lost. It’s not healthy for her, for you, or for your marriage. I understand you have issues from your past. Find help for those issues. (Aren’t you in IC?)

Mys