This may benefit you to read BP' s post in this thread regarding "Mount Resentment". He really put forth some good thoughts here.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=022084;p=4

Thanks baba2,

That was interesting.

EL

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Glad you are back. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am happy for you. Congratulations on finding a terrific new house! The excitement about the new house is the best part of moving. I wish you luck with the mundane task of actually moving everything. If you are anything like my W, you will be throwing yourself completely into the move and working your tail off. Don't over do it, it will all come together. Take care of yourself. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you, I’m quite excited. So far, I’m keeping a tenuous grasp on my sanity. Well, ok, slightly more tenuous than usual…

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> However, I think the whole packing thing was over the top. Expecially since I asked/tried several times to stop the downward spiral by asking if we could regroup and not let this ruin the rest of our trip. She could have taken this as my dismissing her, which is not what I meant to do, but is how I feel sometimes when she is asking to stop the downward spiral. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That’s possible.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think there are certain limits people should have to their anger, or the World would be out of control. A smaller limit would be to not walk out on a trip like this. Actually packing and saying you are going to get a cab and fly 7 hours back home is over the top in my book when the disagreement started over a road sign, especially when we both had a good time up to that point. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think placing limits on angry behavior is a GRAND idea. Unfortunately, you never get to set those limits for someone else but let's pause for a moment and consider just how convenient that would be! *dreamy look* Ok, enough of that, back to reality. It’s clear you don’t think her actions were reasonable. I’m sure that, to her, they were perfectly reasonable. Unless you hire a mediator to follow you around all the time and arbitrate, it’s not going to be practical to rely on or try to implement this type of solution. You two have wildly differing opinions on the matter.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The mountain I must climb to get our M back on track now seems almost unclimbable. This is quite discouraging and I do not know where to begin. I am not sure if merely altering my behavior to be the behavior she always wanted is enough to fo it. I do not know what else can be done. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, changing your behavior might not be all that is required, but for now, it’s all you can do. It’s a good start.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think she will need to choose to confront this anger at some point if we are going to get better. I do not know how to get to this situation, or how to bring it up to her or the MC without making things worse. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, now is not a good time to bring this up. You still haven’t changed enough or changed for LONG enough for her to stop building anger. Confronting it now is probably not going to be helpful. File it away for the future. I realize that’s difficult to do, but it takes lots of little steps.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think if I let my W have the last word without any resistance from me, with her agreement to not take a jab at me in those final words, we might be much better off. Maybe I could bring this up in MC. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why bring it up? Why not just try it and see if it works?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think part of my barrier is that I am not seeing things as big of a problem as she sees them </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is certainly one possibility. I think you’re on the right track but I’m not entirely sure I completely understand what you mean by “as big of a problem” and what “things.” I get the sense this is an allusion to the idea of packing up and leaving a vacation because of an argument over where to eat or what a sign said or <whatever> but I’m not sure that’s ALL you mean. It might encompass all of her complaints, do you think?

I also think it’s true in reverse, I don’t think she sees the things that are important to you (SF, her anger, time spent with the committee, etc) in the same way that you do. What do you think?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am trying to understand these things more, but I feel the change so often it is near to impossible ofr me to follow any steadfast rules to keep myself from getting off track. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, it does take time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> To me this is telling me that she is not willing to really work on our M together and will not be held by any rules from the MC or books. I also feel like she is making me do the work if I want to improve our M because she is actually fine with things (in her mind). I really think she does not realize the anger built up towards me. I can see it now in everything she does that involves me. It causes her to treat me as less than a human beign at times. When I actually bring this up to her in a situation where she is treating me less than human, she will turn it around and say, "what do you want me to do?" or "tell me how you want me to act." This is said in such a sarcastic way as she is playing the role of a marter now and I am a horrible person for saying that I did not like the way I was just treated. Usually it is something I would think is obvious and feel she would never treat someone she just met like this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have no doubt this is what you believe. Unfortunately, it’s all a bunch of disrespectful judgments. Stop assigning her motivations and projecting her thoughts. Until she comes out and says to you (in a calm, credible discussion) “I’m not willing to work on the marriage and I’m trying to punish you.” then stop assuming that’s what she thinks. Your assumptions are just as damaging to your marriage as you feel hers might be.

Use feeling statements. This one was good: I feel that I was powerless to stop it. Look at all the wonderful “I’s” in that sentence.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I still am unsure about her not being irrational in this situation. I mean, who actually leaves a trip like this over the disagreement we had with already having a good first half of the trip? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ahem. This is a dangerous question. You’re asking a woman who once got out of a car in the middle of traffic (we were stopped) because I thought my H was following too closely. I can see leaving a vacation if I managed to get p*ssed off enough. Actually, in most of your descriptions, I find your wife's temper remarkably constrained. If you think SHE'S irrational, you'd have me shot with a tranquilizer gun and locked in a padded room. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Unfortunately, it has taught her to go to the extreme and I will cave. This is dangerous because where does she go after the extreme has become the norm? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah. But, the important question is what did it teach YOU? (Seriously, what did you learn from this?)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I understand what you are saying and agree. I will try really hard to do this. The one concern I have is that since we both do this and both try to imprint our perspective on the other, how do I eventually show this to my W. Otherwise she is just going to always take her perspective as the concrete reality, if I am being so passive and open to her perspective? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, you might bring it up in MC sometime down the road if it’s still a concern. You will find that people get much less defensive and much more willing to consider other’s perspectives when they’re feeling validated and acknowledged. I also wonder what you mean about being passive. No where in there did I say that you should loose your OWN perspective, thoughts, feelings or ideas. Just that you should keep in mind that her experience is different and she is going to react based upon how she experiences the situation. While what you experience might make leaving irrational, what she experienced made it seem like a perfectly good idea. Judging her actions based on what YOU experienced, is just not an effective way to build agreement, open a line of communication, or avoid disrespectful judgments.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Try not to stress too much with your move. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Heh. You’re funny. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Thanks, though. I’ll try.

Mys

Hello Myschae and everyone,

This weekend, our son came back with my mom, stepdad and grandma. A week is a long time to be a way from your 4 year old. I was so happy to have him back. He always seems like he has grown bigger after this week away, each year. He had such a good time and could not tell us everything they did fast enough. He got to go to a zoo, see a parade and get candy, ride a horse, go fishing and many other things. We do not really give him chocolate milk because we did not want to start a bad habit of him not drinking regular milk (this has happened with his cousins). Anyway, he convinced grandma that all he drinks is chocolate milk. So he had this his whole trip. He had a lot of explaining to do when we all got together that first day. It was funny though.

Anyway, we got through another busy weekend where we had company. They arrived on Saturday just after lunch time. I had time in the morning to finish off another part of our patio, which made me happy. My W had a board meeting Saturday morning, but she got home and then started helping me finish off the part of the patio I was working on. We do make a good team and can accomplish a lot when we work together.

I thought a everything was going well Friday and Saturday, until it came to grilling out. Now, my W planned a big dinner for Saturday and I was to grill the meat. I always do the grilling and have done this from day one. While my W is taking care of the other 80% of the meal, she decides to tell me how to grill the food and what not to do, when to cook certain things etc.. All of this in front of the company (my family). I said, "It will be fine, I do this all the time and I know what to do." She started to argue with me and then said, "whatever, do what you want." Now, this is a small thing, and you guys will probably tell me I should have just said, "OK, no problem" and gotten on with it, but I did not. I went and grilled the food (everyone liked it including my W). We did not have a further argument on it. Other than this little thing, we had a pretty good weekend.

Tomorrow we have a MC session. Now, I know this causes my W and I to stress a little. For her it is because she does not want to be there. For me it is because she does not want to be there. I know that there will be some negative comments about having to go between now and tomorrow morning. This has been like this for probably 7 - 8 sessions now. Each time we are about to go to the MC, I start trying to come up with a plan on how to start off the session, what subject to discuss etc.. This is because, 1) I feel the MC will just waste time talking about things that are small on my list (may be big on my W's list, I do not know); 2) My W never starts off talking at the MC and will just sit there if I do not say anything; 3) I cannot help feeling my W feels like she is just waiting to be attacked; 4) I still do not know if the MC is helping or not because I do not feel like we are getting clear guidance from her; 5) I also do not think my W really takes anything away from these sessions and practices any suggestions away from MC; 6) If I bring any of these items up in MC, we will not get much resolved (I feel); 7) I do not want to turn this MC session into a place where we take old wounds and make them bigger (like rehashing what happened on our trip). Can you guys offer me some suggestions about how to begin and where to go in this MC session? As I said before, buring our disagreement on our trip, my W said, "Now you will have something to talk about in the next MC session." You can tell she is apprehensive and defensive about the MC. She definitely does not want to use the MC session to recreate old arguments and then re-argue in front of the MC and pay for this. This may sound like a really simple thing, but I seem to not really get it right every time. So, I thought, why not ask you guys.

Myschae -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think placing limits on angry behavior is a GRAND idea. Unfortunately, you never get to set those limits for someone else but let's pause for a moment and consider just how convenient that would be! *dreamy look* Ok, enough of that, back to reality. It’s clear you don’t think her actions were reasonable. I’m sure that, to her, they were perfectly reasonable. Unless you hire a mediator to follow you around all the time and arbitrate, it’s not going to be practical to rely on or try to implement this type of solution. You two have wildly differing opinions on the matter. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This may be, but I do not think it is unreasonable to have agreed limits that may include not giving up and running away from the problem. Now, I can just here what you are about to tell me. I do not mean not agreeing to disagree or allowing for someone to cool off. I mean actually walking away from the problem and NEVER resolving it. Maybe we need to have an agreed word that when said from either person means that we both stop and agree a time to re-discuss later. However, this cannot be stop and never set a time later to talk about it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, changing your behavior might not be all that is required, but for now, it’s all you can do. It’s a good start. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm trying.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, now is not a good time to bring this up. You still haven’t changed enough or changed for LONG enough for her to stop building anger. Confronting it now is probably not going to be helpful. File it away for the future. I realize that’s difficult to do, but it takes lots of little steps.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is fine and not bringing it up right now is what I thought. However, I do not feel we will get anywhere until this she/we confront this. I do not know when the proper time is nor do I know the proper/respectful way to do this. I do feel helpless and at the mercy of something I cannot even talk about. This is a horrible feeling and makes things feel impossible. It also helps create more internal fear on my part that just directly feeds my mistrusting thoughts about her. It makes me feel that if she is so angry with me (and may not realize how angry she really is with me) that at some point some guy is going to get her a cup of coffee and this small act will sweep her away. Now I do give her more credit than this and this was just an example, but I wanted to get across the concept that I do not think the things we are currently working on can get better if her anger towards me is not resolved simultaneously. It is at a point now that I do not need to actually do anything for her to get angry with me (in her mind). We will go along for a couple of days, where I really feel we are getting along great and things are going good and then this will get derailed by something that seems so small compared to our other issues. I understand you may tell me that these "small" things may not be so small to her, but, I know some of them are actually small things to both of us.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Why bring it up? Why not just try it and see if it works?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have to bring this up, whether it is at MC or not, because I need her agreement to not throw in a jab if I agree to not contest/compete with her for the last word all the time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is certainly one possibility. I think you’re on the right track but I’m not entirely sure I completely understand what you mean by “as big of a problem” and what “things.” I get the sense this is an allusion to the idea of packing up and leaving a vacation because of an argument over where to eat or what a sign said or <whatever> but I’m not sure that’s ALL you mean. It might encompass all of her complaints, do you think?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The trip argument is certainly one of these items that comes to mind. My comments do not encompass all of her complaints because I do see some as being fairly big, like my mistrust issues. However, it seems to me that despite a great effort from both of us, she is letting small steps backwards ruin ALL of the progress instead of seeing them for what they truly are, SMALL MISTAKES BECAUSE I AM HUMAN.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I also think it’s true in reverse, I don’t think she sees the things that are important to you (SF, her anger, time spent with the committee, etc) in the same way that you do. What do you think?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with you here, but I do not think she has found the little bit of clarity that I have to realize, some of the problems I used to percieve as small are actually huge, like my mistrust issues. The SF issue you brought up is definitely seen by her as small and even unneccessary. Therefore, not only are, my main issues, not met or not even accepted by my W as BIG problems, they are also belittled or negated as unimportant by my W. This additional hurt is huge. To be fair, I do react to some things that I still would consider small and I am sure she considers them small too. I need to be able to realize when I am doing this and I need to be able to tell her that I realized this and am sorry for reacting the way I did.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have no doubt this is what you believe. Unfortunately, it’s all a bunch of disrespectful judgments. Stop assigning her motivations and projecting her thoughts. Until she comes out and says to you (in a calm, credible discussion) “I’m not willing to work on the marriage and I’m trying to punish you.” then stop assuming that’s what she thinks. Your assumptions are just as damaging to your marriage as you feel hers might be. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thats fine, and I do see what you are saying. What do you recomend I do/say when she poses the loaded statement like, "tell me what you want me to say?"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ahem. This is a dangerous question. You’re asking a woman who once got out of a car in the middle of traffic (we were stopped) because I thought my H was following too closely. I can see leaving a vacation if I managed to get p*ssed off enough. Actually, in most of your descriptions, I find your wife's temper remarkably constrained. If you think SHE'S irrational, you'd have me shot with a tranquilizer gun and locked in a padded room. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is what I do not understand. I do feel it is quite unreasonable, in the spirit of improving our M to up and try to leave the vacation when the disagreement is actually quite small in the over all scope of things. I think most guys would agree with this. It is not like there was any physical harm she was trying to escape from. I did not agree with her point of view on some minor (most people would consider misinterpreting a road sign or arguing over dinner as minor) items, and she did not agree with me on some minor items. Before someone says she was trying to escape mental abuse, I would like to add that this is also not the case because I tried extremely hard to hold to discussing things in a respectful manner. Lets face it, I had been talking with you guys for a long time about this trip and how to handle things, and I was bound and determined to make this a nice trip. I was very concious of how to try and act when and if this situation popped up, and it did and I did. This is why I did a DJ by saying because of how I was prepared for an argument, and not willing to let it get out of hand, I felt she may (subconciously) not have allowed herself to have a great time because she may have felt like she could not because we are not supposed to have a great time as the norm. This is why I felt her reactions and attempt/bluff to leave were out of line, I did not really give her much of a reason too. It was one of those, "its my ball and I'm going home" things. I feel it is time to be an adult and deal with things. I do not hold anger or resentment for what happened, I am just sad that we had the issue. The good thing that came out of this is my realization of just how deeply mad at me she is (whether it is justified or not). This in itself was a wakeup call and worries me. This is why I think we need to somehow work on this before it is too late. I know she does not realize this and it does comeout in every interaction we have, even it there are no fights and we have pretty much a good time. She leaves me feeling like she is not happy being with me. I have asked her multiple time and she says she is happy being with me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ah. But, the important question is what did it teach YOU? (Seriously, what did you learn from this?) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not feel this action taught me much unfortunately. As I said above, I learned how deep her anger is towards me. I learned that I cannot rely on her to play fair and commit herself to a solution oriented discussion. I learned that I did not want her to leave. I learned that I am now extremely worried she is going to do something like this all the time and threaten to leave whenever she is not getting her way. I learned that the fact she could risk us and use leaving as a ploy to squelch a disagreement shows me how little she values our M at this point. I learned she is very much still in withdrawl when it comes to our M.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, you might bring it up in MC sometime down the road if it’s still a concern. You will find that people get much less defensive and much more willing to consider other’s perspectives when they’re feeling validated and acknowledged. I also wonder what you mean about being passive. No where in there did I say that you should loose your OWN perspective, thoughts, feelings or ideas. Just that you should keep in mind that her experience is different and she is going to react based upon how she experiences the situation. While what you experience might make leaving irrational, what she experienced made it seem like a perfectly good idea. Judging her actions based on what YOU experienced, is just not an effective way to build agreement, open a line of communication, or avoid disrespectful judgments.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The only thing is, that to show her I have changed, I believe she is expecting me to not argue with anything she says or does. I feel she also expects me to take on her perspective and if I do not, then I have not "changed" for the better. I agree with what you are saying though. I just want to stop her internal anger for me from growing anyfurther and eventually fill her heart with only love.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Heh. You’re funny. Thanks, though. I’ll try.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I meant what I said. Take it all in stride. It will end up how you want it to.

Take Care,

EL

I think that once you break through her hostility and get to the bottom of it and get that resolved you will be on the road to having a better marriage.

Perhaps you were so used to her snapping at you, etc that you could not see how harmful it is.

I wager that if she was NEVER hostile to you either overtly or in little subtle ways, then you could BELIEVE in her love for you and you would relax and learn to trust her.

She "says" she likes being with you yet her HOSTILITY is the "tell" that tells you that she really is angry with you, very angry on some level and that anger is always trying to find a way out even if she tries to hold it in.

Extremely Lost

I’m glad you have your son back home with you and that you had a (mostly) nice weekend.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This may be, but I do not think it is unreasonable to have agreed limits that may include not giving up and running away from the problem. Now, I can just here what you are about to tell me. I do not mean not agreeing to disagree or allowing for someone to cool off. I mean actually walking away from the problem and NEVER resolving it. Maybe we need to have an agreed word that when said from either person means that we both stop and agree a time to re-discuss later. However, this cannot be stop and never set a time later to talk about it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think this is a very sensible strategy. In fact, it’s very much one that I use.

There are a few prerequisites and pitfalls which I’d like to warn you about first though. First, it’s nice if you can build the agreement that marriage is a partnership between two people and, if one person has a problem, the marriage has a problem. Therefore, any issue that arises requires the investment of BOTH people to solve.

Next, it’s important that there are some perceived limits imposed upon the conversation. For example, it can be daunting to agree to re-discuss an issue later, if you’re concerned that the issue will never actually be solved. Think about it from that perspective. It is hard to commit to another discussion if each time both parties get emotional and irritated – it’s like scheduling a bi-weekly fight. Ick. There needs to be some sort of strategy or process in place to move things along so that you don’t get mired in endless discussions that drain the love bank.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> However, I do not feel we will get anywhere until this she/we confront this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, maybe you’re right. If this is the case then perhaps you should find a way to bring it up. Let’s talk about this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do not know when the proper time is nor do I know the proper/respectful way to do this. I do feel helpless and at the mercy of something I cannot even talk about. This is a horrible feeling and makes things feel impossible. It also helps create more internal fear on my part that just directly feeds my mistrusting thoughts about her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The problem that I see is that you are assigning this problem to her and wanting her to do something about it (“confront it”). If you bring it up as a declarative…

“You have deep seated anger issues towards me and if you don’t confront them we can’t get anywhere.”

She is going to run for the hills. Unless she’s come out and TOLD you that she’s very angry with you, then wanting to work on that “problem she has” is going to come across as a huge disrespectful judgment and will push her away so fast your head will spin.

Here’s what you CAN do… take out all the declaratives. Don’t assume you know the answer all ready. Assign this “Theory status.” When you have a theory, you research and investigate to FIND the truth. Doing that means keeping an open mind. After all, Extremely Lost, you COULD be wrong. She might not actually have an anger problem – it might very well be something completely different.

What you want to establish is a dialogue. But, that dialogue must not contain you opinions about what she’s doing and why she’s doing it. Remember, the GOAL of this dialog will be to find out what SHE THINKS. That doesn’t mean you’re not entitled to your opinions, but sharing them at the same time you’re asking her what she THINKS is the problem is likely to muddy up the communication to the point of making the whole thing completely ineffective.

Since I know you just LIVE for my examples, here are a few…



You: Honey, I sometimes get the impression that you’re not happy and I really don’t know why. Sometimes, I think that you might be angry with me and I truly don’t know about what and it confuses me. I might be wrong.. maybe you aren’t and it’s something completely different. Either way, I’m just not getting it. If I promise to listen very closely, would you try to tell me how you feel?

Her: I don’t know what you’re talking about … angry when?

You: Well, for example on our trip. I know we were both upset, I guess I just didn’t realize how upset you were until you said you wanted to come home. I don’t want to upset you like that.. so I was wondering if you could tell me what I did that upset you so much. I’m not trying to dredge it all up again and I really want to apologize for making you angry. I was just feeling confused and a little sad about it, so I thought I’d ask.

Her: …


Then, hush. It may be that she isn’t willing or ready. Don’t push it. You won’t be able to force her to tell you, all you can do is ask nicely and NOT MAKE IT ABOUT HER.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do not think the things we are currently working on can get better if her anger towards me is not resolved simultaneously. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I understand that feeling but, again, you can only choose what you are working on. You can’t really choose things for her to work on. She has to decide what she’s working on – though you can have input (more on this in a moment).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have to bring this up, whether it is at MC or not, because I need her agreement to not throw in a jab if I agree to not contest/compete with her for the last word all the time. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Eh? If you let her have the last word then…

I don’t understand. Send help. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> (Speak slowly and use little words. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> However, it seems to me that despite a great effort from both of us, she is letting small steps backwards ruin ALL of the progress instead of seeing them for what they truly are, SMALL MISTAKES BECAUSE I AM HUMAN. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But, maybe she doesn’t consider them small things.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I agree with you here, but I do not think she has found the little bit of clarity that I have to realize, some of the problems I used to percieve as small are actually huge, like my mistrust issues. The SF issue you brought up is definitely seen by her as small and even unneccessary. Therefore, not only are, my main issues, not met or not even accepted by my W as BIG problems, they are also belittled or negated as unimportant by my W. This additional hurt is huge. To be fair, I do react to some things that I still would consider small and I am sure she considers them small too. I need to be able to realize when I am doing this and I need to be able to tell her that I realized this and am sorry for reacting the way I did. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, also, sometimes when things are not going well, even the little things seem huge. You know what I mean? When you’re stressed out, even very mundane, run-of-the-mill problems have a way of taking on epic proportions.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thats fine, and I do see what you are saying. What do you recomend I do/say when she poses the loaded statement like, "tell me what you want me to say?" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why not answer her question respectfully? Or, if you think that’s a bad idea, I’d say something like:
“Is that question rhetorical or would you really like an answer? Because, I can tell you what I really wish you would say but I’m not sure you really would like to hear it.”

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is what I do not understand. I do feel it is quite unreasonable, in the spirit of improving our M to up and try to leave the vacation when the disagreement is actually quite small in the over all scope of things. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Repeat after me: “It wasn’t small to her. It wasn’t small to her. It wasn’t small to her. I don’t know why it wasn’t small to her, but it wasn’t small to her.”

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think most guys would agree with this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’m not sure why that matters. Even if every other person on the planet would agree, whatever she was experiencing in that room in that moment was sufficient to make her decide to leave.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I felt she may (subconciously) not have allowed herself to have a great time because she may have felt like she could not because we are not supposed to have a great time as the norm. This is why I felt her reactions and attempt/bluff to leave were out of line, I did not really give her much of a reason too. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Huh? I suspect she wanted to leave because she was fairly well p*ssed about something. Now, it might not have been all because of you, certainly. Maybe something happened at the spa and the misaligned her charka or something. Either way, she was reacting to her emotional state at the time. Do you believe that she was looking for some excuse to toss down the gauntlet? I don’t think so….

When people get very upset they tend to have a fight or flight reaction. Assuming she was upset (flight reaction) is probably pretty safe, I’d say. What no one here knows (including you, I think) is fully WHY she was upset and what specifically about the situation lit her up so much. That’s why I suggest respectful exploration. But assuming that she’s some how flawed and mentally unable to have a good time because her subconscious is sabotaging her is a leap of conjecture that I’d have a hard time making. Get data. Data is your friend. Reliable data comes from asking the source.

Look at it this way, wouldn’t your life be so much easier if your wife would just come up to you and ask you to explain to her why you do <whatever> instead of assuming you do it to spite her, piss her off, because you’re a <insulting term>, or because you don’t care? Mmmm?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She leaves me feeling like she is not happy being with me. I have asked her multiple time and she says she is happy being with me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, if you ask her a question and then don’t believe her answers, why do you bother asking her? I’ve got to tell you, Extremely Lost, I’d quit answering your questions, too. Think about it from her perspective a moment. You ask her a question and she answers it. You ask her again and she answers it again with the same answer. Lather, rinse, repeat. After a while, she’s going to come to the conclusion that either 1.) you are a terrible listener, 2.) you have absolutely no memory capacity what so ever or 3.) you don’t trust her and think she is lying to you.

Which of those impressions would you like to continue giving her? Think about it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do not feel this action taught me much unfortunately. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, dang it, that was not the answer I was looking for. The answer I was looking for was that you learned that you two do not have the same perspective and experience things the same way. There are CLUES that she gives out that can alert you when this is happening and YOU can take the initiative and recognize the situation. Once you recognize the situation, you can take a step back and very carefully LISTEN to what she is saying to try and gather information about what she’s experiencing. Gathering information works best when you don’t interject your own bias into the process (that’s why they use objective third parties to rate and inspect things).

Yes, yes, yes, once again it’s all about you. Because YOU are here. *hugs* You are now allowed 5 minutes to feel it’s not fair. It really isn’t. Sorry.

Done? Good, let’s move on.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I learned she is very much still in withdrawl when it comes to our M. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The only thing is, that to show her I have changed, I believe she is expecting me to not argue with anything she says or does. I feel she also expects me to take on her perspective and if I do not, then I have not "changed" for the better. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I think you have some work to do on first understanding her perspective. You might find that becomes enough. I don’t really think you see her perspective clearly yet, certainly you say a lot of “She tells me <something> but I believe <the opposite>.” And that suggests to me that you have a little work to do to reconcile those two things. Gather information.

Oh yes, speaking of information. Earlier in the post I alluded to you having input into deciding what she’s working on. This is your friendly Myschae reminder that one thing you were planning to clear up this week is exactly what you and she are working on. You might want to go back up to that post and review all those wonderful “I” messages about that. I do heartily think it’s time for a status check. That means gathering information instead of tossing out diagnostics.

Now, go to it and good luck!

Mys

Hello Myschae,

I am glad you are around. I hope I am not becoming too much of a burden on you through my lengthy posts. I am also grateful for being able to bounce things off you (even when it takes me 2 or 3 or 10 times to "get it"). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’m glad you have your son back home with you and that you had a (mostly) nice weekend. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think this is a very sensible strategy. In fact, it’s very much one that I use.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Cool. Maybe this will work then.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> There are a few prerequisites and pitfalls which I’d like to warn you about first though. First, it’s nice if you can build the agreement that marriage is a partnership between two people and, if one person has a problem, the marriage has a problem. Therefore, any issue that arises requires the investment of BOTH people to solve. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good. This is good. I will try to get agreement on this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Next, it’s important that there are some perceived limits imposed upon the conversation. For example, it can be daunting to agree to re-discuss an issue later, if you’re concerned that the issue will never actually be solved. Think about it from that perspective. It is hard to commit to another discussion if each time both parties get emotional and irritated – it’s like scheduling a bi-weekly fight. Ick. There needs to be some sort of strategy or process in place to move things along so that you don’t get mired in endless discussions that drain the love bank.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with this and am hoping to be able to agree some good guidlines with my W. I think I am an "at the moment person." What I mean is that I have often looked back at a disagreement and thought, I do not feel as passionate about my stance now as I did then. This less passionate stance helps one to discuss things in a more calme manner. Therefore, for me, I think this will work good.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The problem that I see is that you are assigning this problem to her and wanting her to do something about it (“confront it”). If you bring it up as a declarative…

“You have deep seated anger issues towards me and if you don’t confront them we can’t get anywhere.”

She is going to run for the hills. Unless she’s come out and TOLD you that she’s very angry with you, then wanting to work on that “problem she has” is going to come across as a huge disrespectful judgment and will push her away so fast your head will spin.

Here’s what you CAN do… take out all the declaratives. Don’t assume you know the answer all ready. Assign this “Theory status.” When you have a theory, you research and investigate to FIND the truth. Doing that means keeping an open mind. After all, Extremely Lost, you COULD be wrong. She might not actually have an anger problem – it might very well be something completely different.

What you want to establish is a dialogue. But, that dialogue must not contain you opinions about what she’s doing and why she’s doing it. Remember, the GOAL of this dialog will be to find out what SHE THINKS. That doesn’t mean you’re not entitled to your opinions, but sharing them at the same time you’re asking her what she THINKS is the problem is likely to muddy up the communication to the point of making the whole thing completely ineffective.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK. I get what you are saying. However, I think it is bigger than just bringing up one incident. If I brought up the trip and she came out and said, "I was mad because you would not agree/acknowledge that you saw the sign wrong," this does not get us anywhere because it is more of a deeprooted anger that has been caused by a lot of things over four years. This cannot be defined by individual disagreements. Therefore, I am concerned that by using your example, will only get us to discuss the exact situation that I uses to start the discussion and not the bigger issue of the deep rooted anger that may take a proffessional to get out. Do you have any suggestions for broahcing this subject? How do I do this without getting her to withdrawl further?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Eh? If you let her have the last word then…

I don’t understand. Send help. (Speak slowly and use little words. )
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK. One of the problems I have realized is that we are both extremely competitive with eachother. We both (subconciously) try to have the last word in a disagreement. When I finally realized this, I tried to not have the last word to try and improve our communications during disagreements. This sort of worked and had an improving effect, but, when she has the last word, she tends to shoot her own foot off and take a final jab at me. This is when I can't let it go, because I have been wounded and my selfdefense mechanism kicks in. Therefore, I need to bring up this as an agreement so that she can have the last word, as long as it is not a DJ or anything like name calling. Is this clearer now? If so, do you think I should bring this up in MC? I think so, as a technique for improving our communications, which also goes towards both of us feeling safe in a disagreement. I think I should bring this up and the technique with having a word or phrase that lets us both stop arguing and agree a time later to re-examine things. What do you think? Good ideas for discussions in MC?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But, maybe she doesn’t consider them small things. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fair enough, but everything and every time? There has to be some leeway on her end, or I will not feel comfortable to try anymore because of the "walking on egg shells" feeling.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, also, sometimes when things are not going well, even the little things seem huge. You know what I mean? When you’re stressed out, even very mundane, run-of-the-mill problems have a way of taking on epic proportions. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I understand what you are saying. Its just a bit unfortunate, because we were supposed to be totally relaxed and no stress on the trip. I guess it just goes to show that we are both under a huge amount of stress right now and there is not much that seems to be able to eliminate this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Why not answer her question respectfully? Or, if you think that’s a bad idea, I’d say something like:
“Is that question rhetorical or would you really like an answer? Because, I can tell you what I really wish you would say but I’m not sure you really would like to hear it.” </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What she is trying to do here is to try and make me come across as controlling. It does not help either of us. What follows from this is her then saying, "I do not say the right things?" Then she says, "I do not do the right things." Then she leads into the "everything I do is not good enough for you." I have fallen into this trap too many times. I have tried to answer her. I have said to her that I am not trying to control her and she can say what she wants, but I wished it would be meaningful and nonhurtful. When she does this now I just shake my head and say nothing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I’m not sure why that matters. Even if every other person on the planet would agree, whatever she was experiencing in that room in that moment was sufficient to make her decide to leave. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Its important because in life we operate on averages and normalcies. For instance, you go to drive your car and you approach an intersection. The light turns red and you stop at the front of the intersection. You ar counting on the car behind you to stop, because this is normal and what should happen. The entire World runs on these normalcies. It is how people learn to live in this big World, especially as the World gets more crowded. It is how we learn to judge situations as we grow up. Therefore, it is important to me if 99% of the World would react a certain way. It does mean something to me if my W does, what I would consider to be "over the line" such as pack and threaten to leave the trip. These normal boundaries should not be crossed because they allow people the opportunity to reason. Sorry for getting all theoretical on you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Huh? I suspect she wanted to leave because she was fairly well p*ssed about something. Now, it might not have been all because of you, certainly. Maybe something happened at the spa and the misaligned her charka or something. Either way, she was reacting to her emotional state at the time. Do you believe that she was looking for some excuse to toss down the gauntlet? I don’t think so….
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It was out of character enough that I just do not know.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When people get very upset they tend to have a fight or flight reaction. Assuming she was upset (flight reaction) is probably pretty safe, I’d say. What no one here knows (including you, I think) is fully WHY she was upset and what specifically about the situation lit her up so much. That’s why I suggest respectful exploration. But assuming that she’s some how flawed and mentally unable to have a good time because her subconscious is sabotaging her is a leap of conjecture that I’d have a hard time making. Get data. Data is your friend. Reliable data comes from asking the source.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Data is what allows one to create an understanding of patterns and what is considered normal. It is this data I have gathered throughout my life that tells me the way she reacted was unbelievable. I actually remember sitting in the room stunned because the situation was so off the wall.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Look at it this way, wouldn’t your life be so much easier if your wife would just come up to you and ask you to explain to her why you do <whatever> instead of assuming you do it to spite her, piss her off, because you’re a <insulting term>, or because you don’t care? Mmmm?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure it would. One of the things I have asked of my W over the last few months is that when she comes to a cross-roads in her mind as to whether or not something I did could be interpreted as good or bad, to give me the benefit of the doubt and assume it is good. Normally she would assume the other. Now this does not work in this situation because what could someone assume would be good by leaving the vacation? That she left to get you a gift? Clearly not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, if you ask her a question and then don’t believe her answers, why do you bother asking her? I’ve got to tell you, Extremely Lost, I’d quit answering your questions, too. Think about it from her perspective a moment. You ask her a question and she answers it. You ask her again and she answers it again with the same answer. Lather, rinse, repeat. After a while, she’s going to come to the conclusion that either 1.) you are a terrible listener, 2.) you have absolutely no memory capacity what so ever or 3.) you don’t trust her and think she is lying to you.

Which of those impressions would you like to continue giving her? Think about it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Obviously I do not like any of these impressions. It is like Baba said. My W's words and actions give off two very different ideas. She says she loves me and wants to grow old with me, then acts like it is difficult for her to have fun ar get along with me. What message is a reasonable person supposed to get from this. The first obvious thing to me is that she is saying what she is because it is easy to say things lik that instead of fight and that she does not really have a good time or want to be around me. This is why, I end up asking her some questions over again. I probably would not ask again if her actions followed suit with her verbal response.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, dang it, that was not the answer I was looking for. The answer I was looking for was that you learned that you two do not have the same perspective and experience things the same way. There are CLUES that she gives out that can alert you when this is happening and YOU can take the initiative and recognize the situation. Once you recognize the situation, you can take a step back and very carefully LISTEN to what she is saying to try and gather information about what she’s experiencing. Gathering information works best when you don’t interject your own bias into the process (that’s why they use objective third parties to rate and inspect things). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Great! I do not have a clue as to how to figure out what these clues are. I need help here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes, yes, yes, once again it’s all about you. Because YOU are here. *hugs* You are now allowed 5 minutes to feel it’s not fair. It really isn’t. Sorry.

Done? Good, let’s move on.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LOL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, I think you have some work to do on first understanding her perspective. You might find that becomes enough. I don’t really think you see her perspective clearly yet, certainly you say a lot of “She tells me <something> but I believe <the opposite>.” And that suggests to me that you have a little work to do to reconcile those two things. Gather information. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Isn't reconciling what she says and what I believe the same things as my adopting her POV? Now I am confused. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Oh yes, speaking of information. Earlier in the post I alluded to you having input into deciding what she’s working on. This is your friendly Myschae reminder that one thing you were planning to clear up this week is exactly what you and she are working on. You might want to go back up to that post and review all those wonderful “I” messages about that. I do heartily think it’s time for a status check. That means gathering information instead of tossing out diagnostics. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was a little confused by what you meant here. If you mean talking in ways that reflect me and my issues or how I feel so that I am not coming across as attacking her or saying that she has this problem, I am working on that.

Thanks for all the help Mys,

EL

Hi EL. Just wanted to let you know I'm still reading. I need to take a break from posting on this thread for a while, though. Hope that's okay. I think my red buttons are especially shiny and red right now, so I don't think my advice would be especially helpful <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> . Besides - you've got Mys on the case - and that's good news for you! *waves Mys flag*

lfc

LFC,

That OK. You take all the time you need. Just know you will be missed on this thread as I value your opinions and POV.

Thanks & Take Care,

EL

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> am glad you are around. I hope I am not becoming too much of a burden on you through my lengthy posts. I am also grateful for being able to bounce things off you (even when it takes me 2 or 3 or 10 times to "get it"). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*grins* No worries, my friend. I know where the little X button on the browser is located if I get tired.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I agree with this and am hoping to be able to agree some good guidlines with my W. I think I am an "at the moment person." What I mean is that I have often looked back at a disagreement and thought, I do not feel as passionate about my stance now as I did then. This less passionate stance helps one to discuss things in a more calme manner. Therefore, for me, I think this will work good. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">True, distance can lend perspective. I didn’t think, however, you were the one who would balk at bringing things up again. I suspect SHE will be the one to protest. What kind of limits are you willing to offer to place on that to entice her into the deal?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I agree with this and am hoping to be able to agree some good guidlines with my W. I think I am an "at the moment person." What I mean is that I have often looked back at a disagreement and thought, I do not feel as passionate about my stance now as I did then. This less passionate stance helps one to discuss things in a more calme manner. Therefore, for me, I think this will work good. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ack! You’re so certain you’re right that now you’re considering professional help?! You haven’t even taken the car to the mechanic yet and you’re all ready planning how to pay for a new engine. Yeesh.

Remember what I said about “theory status.” If you listen to what she answers you then try to shoe horn it into your theory, not only will you offend my sense of scientific method, but you’re likely to miss something important.

Ok, you want more generic… here’s more generic…



You: Honey, I sometimes get the impression that you’re not happy and I really don’t know why. Sometimes, I think that you might be angry with me and I truly don’t know about what and it confuses me. I might be wrong.. maybe you aren’t and it’s something completely different. Either way, I’m just not getting it. If I promise to listen very closely, would you try to tell me how you feel?

Her: I don’t know what you’re talking about … angry when?

You: Well, for example on our trip. I know we were both upset, I guess I just didn’t realize how upset you were until you said you wanted to come home. I don’t want to upset you like that.. so I was wondering if you could tell me what I did that upset you so much. I’m not trying to dredge it all up again and I really want to apologize for making you angry. I don’t want to get stuck on that as an example, really.. it just seems to happen often enough that I’m confused and a little sad about it.

Her: …



Then hush up and listen. Try not to get frustrated if she wants to use the trip as an example. Many times people talk about the specific to describe the general.. goodness knows I do.

Oh, and if you’re waiting for an admission on her part that she’s angry with you and needs professional help to deal with that, then you’re bound to be disappointed. Again, consider her perspective. She is likely to consider the things that cause her to be angry the problem rather than the anger itself.

There are more steps coming… this is just the information gathering stage. You aren’t going to be able to address this until you understand it. You won’t be able to understand it until you can communicate about it. You won’t be able to communicate about it until you are ready to hear her messages without interpreting them or shoehorning them into your theories.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This sort of worked and had an improving effect, but, when she has the last word, she tends to shoot her own foot off and take a final jab at me. This is when I can't let it go, because I have been wounded and my selfdefense mechanism kicks in. Therefore, I need to bring up this as an agreement so that she can have the last word, as long as it is not a DJ or anything like name calling. Is this clearer now? If so, do you think I should bring this up in MC? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Uhm. Maybe. I think you’d be best served to not bring it up this week and work on a way to bring it up that is a little more agreement building friendly. I can tell you if you bring it up like you just described it to me, you’re not likely to get what you want. And, I don’t have any good examples right now.. maybe someone else will. But I’m putting out the danger flags for you here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What she is trying to do here is to try and make me come across as controlling. It does not help either of us. What follows from this is her then saying, "I do not say the right things?" Then she says, "I do not do the right things." Then she leads into the "everything I do is not good enough for you." I have fallen into this trap too many times. I have tried to answer her. I have said to her that I am not trying to control her and she can say what she wants, but I wished it would be meaningful and nonhurtful. When she does this now I just shake my head and say nothing. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I think you’re getting closer. I understand the sarcasm in the statement. What I’m really trying to get at is what DO you want her to say. What is meaningful and nonhurtful? That’s so vague. It’s not a rhetorical question, I’m serious.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Its important because in life we operate on averages and normalcies. For instance, you go to drive your car and you approach an intersection. The light turns red and you stop at the front of the intersection. You ar counting on the car behind you to stop, because this is normal and what should happen. The entire World runs on these normalcies. It is how people learn to live in this big World, especially as the World gets more crowded. It is how we learn to judge situations as we grow up. Therefore, it is important to me if 99% of the World would react a certain way. It does mean something to me if my W does, what I would consider to be "over the line" such as pack and threaten to leave the trip. These normal boundaries should not be crossed because they allow people the opportunity to reason. Sorry for getting all theoretical on you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, but what you consider normal and reasonable are not the same thing as what she considers normal and reasonable because you both come from different families of origin (FOO). So, who’s right?

I suppose my point was that arguments of “everyone else thinks this” or “some <random authority> says…” are rarely helpful in a marital argument. I understand it’s how you make judgments (don’t we all) but it’s just not an effective strategy or metric in marriage. You didn’t marry an “average”; you married an individual. Variances will apply.

Who out there is really normal, anyway?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It was out of character enough that I just do not know. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, good. Knowing what you don’t know is always a good first step.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Data is what allows one to create an understanding of patterns and what is considered normal. It is this data I have gathered throughout my life that tells me the way she reacted was unbelievable. I actually remember sitting in the room stunned because the situation was so off the wall. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I still maintain that your wife has an unbelievably calm temper. Hrm. Maybe I’m not the one to ask. (Yes, I absolutely can see leaving if I was p*ssed enough whether or not I was in immanent physical danger and still having love, respect, and expecting the marriage to recover on the other end. The trick is to get me p*ssed enough. But, I likely wouldn’t threaten, either. I’d have just gone. So, if you’re asking ME if I think she was justified, my answer would be “Sure, if she was that p*ssed.” But, I’d be curious about WHY. If my perspective on why I would leave and feel it was absolutely appropriate, would be beneficial to you, I’d be happy to explain it.)

Anyway, aren’t you curious as to WHY she was that upset? I mean, what specifically was that upsetting to her? I think we both agree THAT she was upset.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Sure it would. One of the things I have asked of my W over the last few months is that when she comes to a cross-roads in her mind as to whether or not something I did could be interpreted as good or bad, to give me the benefit of the doubt and assume it is good. Normally she would assume the other. Now this does not work in this situation because what could someone assume would be good by leaving the vacation? That she left to get you a gift? Clearly not. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh see, now you asked.

Well, if it was me, I can see a situation in which my anger or frustration level was too high. At that point, knowing myself I would know that 1.) I’m not going to say anything even remotely productive if I stay and 2.) I’m going to need appropriate space in order to recover my otherwise calm and rosy demeanor and 3.) If I stay not only will *I* not have a good time, but I’m going to make darn sure to ruin it for you too. So, in that case I would simply remove myself from the situation and calm myself down. Sometimes a walk around the block isn’t enough.

So, the benefit to me (and ostensibly my marriage) is that it allows me to not do and say things that I would regret later. I’d eventually feel worse about my actions stemming from my anger than I would about leaving the trip. I am not much given to punitive or vengeful actions unless I’m cornered. If I left, it would be an act of protection as opposed to an act of vengeance. I know myself, I know how I am. I have dysfunctional tendencies like everyone else. I just try to mitigate them with strategies when ever I can.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Obviously I do not like any of these impressions. It is like Baba said. My W's words and actions give off two very different ideas. She says she loves me and wants to grow old with me, then acts like it is difficult for her to have fun ar get along with me. What message is a reasonable person supposed to get from this. The first obvious thing to me is that she is saying what she is because it is easy to say things lik that instead of fight and that she does not really have a good time or want to be around me. This is why, I end up asking her some questions over again. I probably would not ask again if her actions followed suit with her verbal response. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*sighs*

Well, maybe the two things aren’t mutually exclusive. Maybe she does love you and want to grow old with you and at the same time can find it difficult to relax around you. For one thing, it seems as though you are constantly looking for a reason not to believe her. If she scowls because she had a bad dream, you assume she doesn’t want to wake up next to you. Ya know? It’s hard living under a microscope.

If you’re going to ask her questions, then be prepared to accept her answers. Otherwise, I really think you should stop asking. Obviously that will severely limit your communication. But, consider this, if you’re not going to believe her anyway… what’s the point of attempting verbal communication? Just observe her actions and leave the questioning out of it. Are you trying to ask until she validates your fears or something? That can turn into a self fulfilling prophecy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Great! I do not have a clue as to how to figure out what these clues are. I need help here. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your first clue is when you think she is making a BIG thing out of a SMALL thing. That’s a pretty good clue there is a difference of perspective.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Isn't reconciling what she says and what I believe the same things as my adopting her POV? Now I am confused. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, not really.

I’ll give you an example. I think my H is a very aggressive driver. I think he follows too close, weaves through traffic, and cuts people off a lot. In addition to that, he likes his horn a lot. He thinks he’s a defensive driver. He’ll point to the objective facts that he hasn’t had accidents or tickets and maintains that defensive driving is necessary and safer than being tentative.

I understand his point of view. I just don’t happen to share it. Because of that, I EXPECT him to act according to his perspective – continue driving the way he feels is appropriate. I don’t expect him to drive the way **I** think he should drive even though I’m right. (of course <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) He does adjust his driving somewhat when I’m in the car though (so that I don’t get out in the middle of intersections) but it still is not up to my idea of what safe driving should be.

So, assume that your wife was mad because… well, who cares.. because she thought that when you said the sign said one thing you were calling her a liar (I made that up, ok?) And the one thing she absolutely will not stand for is being called a liar! That just makes the hair on the back of her neck stand up and colors swirl in front of her eyes and generates within her an insane urge to exercise the lesser used portions of her vocabulary. Now, if you saw that from her perspective (without changing your own which is that you’d sooner cut out your tongue than call her a liar) you would EXPECT her to pack her bags and probably smack you on the way out the door.

The difference isn’t in what you believe, it’s simply in understanding why she did what she did. I still think the key in this is finding out WHAT SPECIFICALLY set her off. I don’t think it’s a small thing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I was a little confused by what you meant here. If you mean talking in ways that reflect me and my issues or how I feel so that I am not coming across as attacking her or saying that she has this problem, I am working on that. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep, that’s what I mean.

Mys

I am pretty much a lurker, and have learned TONS. Someday I will post what I have gleaned.

I pay particular attention to this thread because our situation seems so similiar, but not anywhere near the extreme for me. I have VERY thick skin and don't need many needs met.

I can not give advice like others, but wonder about something symbolic, like coming in with a couple hatchets and asking if we can just bury these in the yard and have a fresh start.

I gotta admit I may be a little (or a lot) sexist in that I think women, for the most part, hold on to grudges and disagreements and hurts longer than men. Not always!! Not all women!! Just a very vague and general OPINION of mine. In fact, I will even just make that statement to be I think my W holds on to grudges and anger longer than I do ( For example I was mad as h*ll at her when I went to bed last night and decided I wasn't gonna make my morning call to her this morning.......but can't remember this morning why I was so mad and made the call. She was still mad until distracted by other topics) I agree that often times when one gets very angry about something small it may really be the last seven or eight small things built up or misinterpretations from other things. The past can cause a lot of problems in the present. An example can be 'why is she so mad about the toilet seat? Geez, just put it down! But then ya get 'when you drove my car you left the seat way back and the mirrors different and you didn't get the creamer I asked you to! You care only about yourself". Yeah, I have learned I am guilty too of misinterpreting actions too.

I said I pay special attention to this thread because I feel my wife gets way too angry way too quickly. I am very happy go-lucky for the most part. I am thinking and seeing that their past issues and distrust govern a lot of what 'we' ( you and I ) think is their irrational behavior now.

You have done so much to show how you don't mean anything bad or harmful and only want good things for you both. Ask her to really really trust you and try for a month. "I am doing so much to make us happy - counseling, nice things, using I sentences, I really want us to whatever"....You can explain yourself better ........ and say can we just bury this hatchet and have a fresh start?

I went on too long! But in reading the posts it just seemed that burying the proverbial hatchet could do so much.

I left my wife a message in a bottle once with a copy of the lyrics in it saying 'I'm an island lost at sea....only love can keep me together", and plan to again here in day or two with a more specific message in it because I don't think she got it the first time - too subliminal.

Well, I had just written quite a long response answering questions and everything, but I got logged off and lost the entire post. I will reconstruct it, but it will take me some time.

Best Wishes,

EL

OK, Here goes response take 2. - This si soooo annoying that I have to rewrite all of this again.

Today we had an MC session and I wanted to go into details describing what happened because I really want to be fair to both my W and I and I also need to gain a better understanding as to what is going on, how I can help to make positive changes and what is actually reality. So please, open up on me here and let me have it. Grab two 2x4's if necessary to help me understand and react better.

The mornings of our MC sessions, we take our S to pre-school. This morning, as we leave the house my W says to me that she is not feeling very well. She says she is nauscious and has a head and stomache ache. I said to her, "Honey, if you are feeling this bad, why don't you just go back in side and lie down. I'll take our S to school and go to the session myself." She said, "I'll see how I feel after we drop him off." After we had dropped our S off, my W says, "I'll meet you there." We drive two cars because I have to go to work right after our MC session.

So we get to the session and my W showing signs through posture and facial expressions that she is sick. We start the session and the MC asks my W if she is alright. My W says she is sick and the MC offers to reschedule our appointment. My W says, "no." So the MC starts by asking about our trip. Now, I did not wish to rehash the entire evening and neither did my W. My W sat silent so I said that our trip was fine and for the most part we had a good time. My W agreed. Then I said that there was one evening that we had a disagreement that got a little out of control. I said, that I did not wish to rehash this during this session, but that I did learn a couple of things from this that I did want to share. I said, "I learned that my W and I have two different POVs and that neither of them are wrong. I also felt that both my W and I try to get in the last word in an argument. I realize that this is not a healthy communication skill and am willing to forgo my needing to have the last word if my W would be willing to agree that her last words are kind and caring." My W said, "I do not have to have the last word. I am only responding to you saying something unkind." I said, "We both feel this way and it would make a big difference if we could reach an agreement to try something healthier." My W said, "This all happened because you just will not let it stop! YOU KEEP IT GOING! I ask you several times to stop and YOU KEEP IT GOING!" Now this upset me because this is not the case from our trip. Yes, in the past I have done what she says because we never reach a resolution and only continue to use words that cause further pain. Now that I am more concious of this I am making big efforts to not keep things going even if this means there is no resolutions. Therefore, while we were on the trip and I saw signs of us having an argument, I asked if we could please stop and not go any further with the current discussion. I said that I wanted to get back on track and enjoy the rest of the day. My W agreed and then KEPT IT GOING. I was so surprised at the tables being turned that I did not know what to do. She kept it going well into the evening (as I wrote before). Yet, she now turns things around and blames me for keeping it going. This is not reality (no matter who's POV you use). Therfore, I said to the MC, "This is not fair because it is not what happened." I explained what happended. Then my W said she got really mad when she had just eaten lunch and 15 minutes later I was pushing her to have dinner and making reservations that gave her only 15 minutes to get ready. This really irritated me and was completely misleading on her part. The reality was that we ate lunch at 3:00 PM. We then spent the rest of the day at wineries. We arrive back to the hotel at 5:15 PM and I ask her about dinner because I wanted to go out that night. She said, I am not hungry because I just ate. I said, we ate at 3 and I was meaning that I would like to make reservations for later. I said I did not care if it was 6 or 7 or 8, and for her to let me know what was good for her. She did not respond and said I am going to take a nap. So she layed down on the bed and went to sleep without answering me. I went for a walk because I did not feel like laying down. I ended up down at the concierges and looked through two large volumes of fair from the different resturants. It was important to find something we would both like, I thought. After calling 6 different resturants, the concierge was unable to get any reservations later than 6:30 PM. I figured, 6:30PM is 3.5 hours past the last time we ate, plus we could take our time and have adrink before we ate. This should not be a problem. So I booked the reservations. When I got back to the room at 5:45PM my W was sleeping. I did not want to wake her up but I also did not want her to get upset that she did not have enough time to get ready for dinner. The resturant was a five minute walk from our room. So at 6:00 I woke her up and told her about the reservations. Now I went through this lengthy explanation to show how she is skewing reality unfairly. Again, I told the MC, "this is not true." I explained it all to her. My W just shook her head.

Then my W made the comment that she gave quite a lot during this trip. She said that she went to this certain resturant for me and that I requested it. Well the resturant she was talking about was the one from the night of our disagreement. After missing our 6:30 reservations, I was not even hungry anymore because I was upset. At 7:00 my W asks, what should we do for dinner? I could not belive this, so I responded by saying I am not that hungry anymore so what ever you want to do is fine with me. She said we should go for a drive and find a resturant. I could not believe this, but I just went with it. So here we are at 7:45 siting at a resturant waiting for a table because she now wanted to go eat. This is the resturant she tells the MC she gave to me by going to this resturant. What the F__K? So again, I explain this all to the MC and she shakes her head.

I then say that there is another thing I would like to reach agreement on. I explained, "I really think that if we could agree on a word or phrase that one of us could say that would let the other know that this person needs for the argument to stop, it would really help." I also explained, "this would need to be a two fold agreement. the person that uses this phrase or word would be responsible for telling the other when they would most likely be willing to re-approach this subject again. It would also need to be agreed that we would have a "safe" discussion when we come back to this topic." My W said,"Why do you need a phrase or a word? Isn't STOP good enough for you? Why won't STOP work? Why do we have to come up with a stupid phrase?" I said,"The fact that you insinuated that my idea was stupid hurts me." She did not reply. It was during all of this that I then said, "It is obvious to me that my W has a lot of deep anger towards me and it comes out in every type of contact we have. I truly do not understand this anger, nor do I thinks she realizes how angry she comes across. I do not wish for her to be angry, especially at me. I love her and only want to be happy with her. I want her to be happy."

She made a comment about me being irrational on the trip and not admitting I read the sign wrong. I said she just made a disrespectful judgment and it was not fair. Both her and the MC then jumped me about using the word respect. My W says, when I use the word respect it makes her feel like I am expecting her to be barefoot and pregnant and the is just NOT GOING TO HAPPEN! I could not believe this reaction I was getting and tried to explain what a DJ was. It did not matter, they both pushed me into an agreement to not use the word respect.

Anyway, at the end of this session, I said to the MC, "This is not really fair. You are not getting a fair view of our M. All you heard today was one evening out of 14. The other 13 were pretty good. In fact Saturday morning to mid-afternoon was great. Our S did not get bakc into town until 1:00PM. I worked on the patio all morning. My W went to a board meeting, got home early and jumped into helping me on the patio. Working together we got a lot done. It was great. The MC said,"Wonderful. Why were these other days good? What happened that made them good?" My W said, "I don't know." I said, "because we listened to each other and cared about each other's feelings."

This pretty much ended our session. As we were walking out, my W says, "What a great way to start the day!" (faciciously). I said, "Nice, that is negative. We are supposed to use the MC to improve our M not feel like it is a prison sentence." I kissed her on the forehead and then went to work.

Myschae -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*grins* No worries, my friend. I know where the little X button on the browser is located if I get tired. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> True, distance can lend perspective. I didn’t think, however, you were the one who would balk at bringing things up again. I suspect SHE will be the one to protest. What kind of limits are you willing to offer to place on that to entice her into the deal?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whatever it takes to get some forward motion on this. As I said above, I am willing to give up having to have the last word, agree a way to stop the argument, agree that we discuss things in a safe manner for both of us. Really, whatever it takes. But I think I am still fighting that damn withdrawl and not really my W on this. You are right. She does not want to rehash things and says when she want to stop with a discussion she has reached resolution. I said, I have not reached resolution and need to. She said, "So I am expected, when I feel things are resolved, to continue discussing them even though it is going to get me upset?" I said, "So I am expected to never reach resolution and always continue to feel upset, so that you never have to feel upset?" This did not get us anywhere. So she said, "tell me what resolution you are looking for? I do not understand what it is you want." This was my chance and I blew it. I froze. I could not think of any good resolutions at the time and told her I could not give her an example right now. I said, if you would take a leap of faith and try the agreeing to stop arguing, setting a time to come back to it and then actually discussing it, I promised she would see that things got resolved better. She did not comment. Then she said, "So now it is going to be an argument about setting a time to come back to the argument." I said this could be avoided if we both be reasonable to each other. She shook her head.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Then hush up and listen. Try not to get frustrated if she wants to use the trip as an example. Many times people talk about the specific to describe the general.. goodness knows I do. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK. I brought it up (maybe not in the best way I could have). I listened to what she had to say. What she had to say did not make sense. It skewed reality. It is not about her different POV it is about her lying - saying I was the one who would not stop, saying that I made reservations right away with 15 minutes until dinner, saying we went to a resturant that night for me. Allof these are flat out lies, not a different POV. So what do you take from what she said? I do not see how you can reasonably take much of anything accept that she felt she needed to lie to make her point.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Oh, and if you’re waiting for an admission on her part that she’s angry with you and needs professional help to deal with that, then you’re bound to be disappointed. Again, consider her perspective. She is likely to consider the things that cause her to be angry the problem rather than the anger itself. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know she is angry with me. I know she will not dare admit this. When I brought this up, the MC said, "I am not sure it is anger as much as reacting from being hurt." What does this mean? If I get hurt, I get mad. I react because I am mad. Being mad is anger! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> There are more steps coming… this is just the information gathering stage. You aren’t going to be able to address this until you understand it. You won’t be able to understand it until you can communicate about it. You won’t be able to communicate about it until you are ready to hear her messages without interpreting them or shoehorning them into your theories. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am sooooo ready. I just need her to be honest and fair with what she is saying. One of my boundaries is her lying like she did. Where do I go from here?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Uhm. Maybe. I think you’d be best served to not bring it up this week and work on a way to bring it up that is a little more agreement building friendly. I can tell you if you bring it up like you just described it to me, you’re not likely to get what you want. And, I don’t have any good examples right now.. maybe someone else will. But I’m putting out the danger flags for you here </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Myschae, you my friend, are a genious. I did bring this up and I did not get what I wanted. Danger Will Robinson, Danger!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, I think you’re getting closer. I understand the sarcasm in the statement. What I’m really trying to get at is what DO you want her to say. What is meaningful and nonhurtful? That’s so vague. It’s not a rhetorical question, I’m serious. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I want her to say things that are kind caring, compassionate and show interest in me and our M. I do not want her to say things that show me she is not putting any kind of thought or care into what she says. This makes me feel worse than worthless. If I try to tell her this than she says I am putting pressure on her to "say the right thing" and she is walking around on egg shells. I kind of agree with her, that you should not have to be told how or what to say something. When you love someone, you talk to them like you love them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, but what you consider normal and reasonable are not the same thing as what she considers normal and reasonable because you both come from different families of origin (FOO). So, who’s right?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand what you are saying about the FOOs but there is a difference between POVs and just flat out lying. In this situation, I am sorry, but I am right. If you learned that running into the back of someone's car that is stopped at an intersection is a good thing to do, you will get a ticket. If you continue to do this, you will go to jail.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I suppose my point was that arguments of “everyone else thinks this” or “some <random authority> says…” are rarely helpful in a marital argument. I understand it’s how you make judgments (don’t we all) but it’s just not an effective strategy or metric in marriage. You didn’t marry an “average”; you married an individual. Variances will apply. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I married a woman who does not come from a bad background. I married with the expectations of her having reason and accountability. I will not waiver in these expectations, nor do I feel anyone should. Yes, variances do apply, but not in being reasonable or accountable.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Who out there is really normal, anyway?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now, this is an excellent question. I love to get into these theoretical discussions, but currently am focusing my energies into trying to save my M. At some time in the future, when you and I feel our Ms are "normal," I would love to hash this out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, good. Knowing what you don’t know is always a good first step. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This was my admitting that I was totally dumbfounded because of her reaction being unreasonable considering the way she has reacted our entire relationship.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I still maintain that your wife has an unbelievably calm temper. Hrm. Maybe I’m not the one to ask. (Yes, I absolutely can see leaving if I was p*ssed enough whether or not I was in immanent physical danger and still having love, respect, and expecting the marriage to recover on the other end. The trick is to get me p*ssed enough. But, I likely wouldn’t threaten, either. I’d have just gone. So, if you’re asking ME if I think she was justified, my answer would be “Sure, if she was that p*ssed.” But, I’d be curious about WHY. If my perspective on why I would leave and feel it was absolutely appropriate, would be beneficial to you, I’d be happy to explain it.)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">By your saying my W has an unbelievably calm temper, are you saying that I am too extreme to get along with or what? I actually think the opposite. I think I am the one displaying the unbelievably calm temper. I only really get to vent in this post.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Anyway, aren’t you curious as to WHY she was that upset? I mean, what specifically was that upsetting to her? I think we both agree THAT she was upset. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have asked her what was specifically so upsetting to her. She contends that it is because I do not stop, I do not let it drop, I could not would not in a boat, I will not eat green eggs and ham, Sam I am! Sorry, could not resist. My humor got the better of me while I was typing. Now I am wondering why she has specifically lied in the MC. If I ask her we will get into an argument because she has now accepted her lies as reality. I do not know what to do. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, if it was me, I can see a situation in which my anger or frustration level was too high. At that point, knowing myself I would know that 1.) I’m not going to say anything even remotely productive if I stay and 2.) I’m going to need appropriate space in order to recover my otherwise calm and rosy demeanor and 3.) If I stay not only will *I* not have a good time, but I’m going to make darn sure to ruin it for you too. So, in that case I would simply remove myself from the situation and calm myself down. Sometimes a walk around the block isn’t enough. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand what you are saying here. The one I have the problem with is number 3. My W was going to pack, get a cab, buy an extra plane ticket to fly cross Country on the day, rent a cab at home and cut her vacation in half. Her leaving would have made my entire vacation bad, so #3 would not have worked there. I am all for needing your space and time, but on a reasonable level. Tell me, when you got out of the car on the road, did you get back in?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, the benefit to me (and ostensibly my marriage) is that it allows me to not do and say things that I would regret later. I’d eventually feel worse about my actions stemming from my anger than I would about leaving the trip. I am not much given to punitive or vengeful actions unless I’m cornered. If I left, it would be an act of protection as opposed to an act of vengeance. I know myself, I know how I am. I have dysfunctional tendencies like everyone else. I just try to mitigate them with strategies when ever I can.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My W's act was not one of protecting our M. It was purely selfish.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, maybe the two things aren’t mutually exclusive. Maybe she does love you and want to grow old with you and at the same time can find it difficult to relax around you. For one thing, it seems as though you are constantly looking for a reason not to believe her. If she scowls because she had a bad dream, you assume she doesn’t want to wake up next to you. Ya know? It’s hard living under a microscope. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Look, apparently, if I breath around my W she thinks I do not trust her somehow. I am not a bad guy. I am not over the top. i do not cheat on my W. I do not directly try to control my W. I do not beat her. I do not try to take advantage of her in anyway (especially physical). I have been jealous because of my past hurts. Who hasn't? I make a good living. I am honest with my W. I try to do everything I can with my W. I love my W. Therefore, I try to show my W that I love her. I do this in a number of ways, some of which are how I act around her. For example, bringing home flowers out of the blue last Friday night. For whatever reason, I cannot seem to pull her out of withdrawl. She seems content living in this "just getting by" life style when it comes to our M. All other things, she shows interest in. Now I truly do not believe my W is evil or a conwoman. I do believe she does not realize how she is when it comes to our M. For whatever reason, she has blinders on. I am looking for reasons too believe her, not the other way around.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you’re going to ask her questions, then be prepared to accept her answers. Otherwise, I really think you should stop asking. Obviously that will severely limit your communication. But, consider this, if you’re not going to believe her anyway… what’s the point of attempting verbal communication? Just observe her actions and leave the questioning out of it. Are you trying to ask until she validates your fears or something? That can turn into a self fulfilling prophecy.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I just went off her actions then I would think she hates me. this is why I need to ask sometimes. I need to hear her words, because nothing else is there. Atleast with LFC she is communicating with her H. I would be over the moon if my W said what LFC says to her H. I am very concerned about a self fulfilling prophecy. For example, there is a situation I could potentially see growing into a problem right now. There is this guy on the "board" that my W talks more and more about and calls and emails. Now, my trust issues from the past kick into overdrive with this potential. I have to trust my W and let things just go, apparently. If I dare bring any of my fears up, it will show my W I do not trust her and could potentially help create the self fulfilling prophecy that would just kill me. I cannot do anything that would look as nonsupport for my W on this "board" because she is using this "board" as a sense of self fullfilment and self worth. It gives her an identity other than mom or wife. This is extremely important to her. So I am left figuring out how to deal with my own fears and worrying about something that may not really be an issue.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Your first clue is when you think she is making a BIG thing out of a SMALL thing. That’s a pretty good clue there is a difference of perspective. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Great. Sounds simple enough.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The difference isn’t in what you believe, it’s simply in understanding why she did what she did. I still think the key in this is finding out WHAT SPECIFICALLY set her off. I don’t think it’s a small thing.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with you and you are motivating me to try and ask her again tonight. But, how do I get her to give me her POV without lying or distorting reality?

TRG1 -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I pay particular attention to this thread because our situation seems so similiar, but not anywhere near the extreme for me. I have VERY thick skin and don't need many needs met.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am glad to hear that your situation is not as extreme as mine. I would not wish it on anyone. However, I do have a thick skin and found out this is actually a handy cap in this type of situation. You must need some needs met, you are on this board.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I said I pay special attention to this thread because I feel my wife gets way too angry way too quickly. I am very happy go-lucky for the most part. I am thinking and seeing that their past issues and distrust govern a lot of what 'we' ( you and I ) think is their irrational behavior now.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is important to try and understand where their distrust comes from. This is hard enough, then you have to figure out how to improve yourself to allow your W to regain her trust. Then if you are very lucky, she might want to reinvest in your M and have a teriffic life.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You have done so much to show how you don't mean anything bad or harmful and only want good things for you both. Ask her to really really trust you and try for a month. "I am doing so much to make us happy - counseling, nice things, using I sentences, I really want us to whatever"....You can explain yourself better ........ and say can we just bury this hatchet and have a fresh start?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Believe me, I have asked for this. She is unable to do this right now. She need to see that I have changed. Then she needs to believe that I have changed. Then she needs to accept that I have changed, Then she needs to tak a chance. It is not a fair process, but, as Myschae has said, so what. Make a decision as to what you want and react accordingly.

TGR1, I think you have some really great ideas. Burying hatchets and the notes in a bottle. I wish you luck my friend.

Well, I think I remembered most of what I wrote the first time.

Take Care,

EL

Ok I think (at this point) she has "inside herself" given up on your marriage. She may not know this. She can hardly "stomach" the counseling.

This explains the lies in counseling because if she stated the truth, the counselor would confront HER and she wants to make "you" look like the bad guy to the counselor and more importantly "to herself". If she makes you look like the bad guy and herself the victim she eliminates guilt she feels for investing her emotions in that other man. Emotions she should be investing in you and the marriage.

She is doing most of this game playing and being hostile to you and blaming you for being the bad guy in order to:

CALL AND E-MAIL ANOTHER MAN!!!!!!!????

She is busy having an emotional affair. She can be nice to the other man and can forget about caring for you. It is easy for her. He probably thinks she is wonderful. They may talk about you. That is why she was not excited about going on that trip with you. And why she likes to keep your marriage lukewarm. She keeps it not good and not bad.

She does not need for your marriage to be good. Do you know why? Because she has her other man! Whatever needs she is not letting you meet for her the other man is there meeting those needs.

Since the other man is so exciting to talk to, the thrill of the emotional affair WITH HIM even diminishes her desire for sex with YOU. Pretty much this other man fills her need for male attention.

It is soooo easy to be hostile or cruel to YOU if she knows that the other man will be there for her and she can to complain about you to him when she gets home. I would looooove to hear how long thier conversations are. She probably was ready to go home when you had that fight on the trip. To go home and call up the other man!

In fact, I betcha dollars to donuts as soon as you went back to work after the trip she got on the phone and spilled her guts to the other man. Or even, when she was on the spa day, did she have a cell? Could she have called him from there?

I believe she probably "fabricated" the details of your trip for "the other man" as a prelude to fabricating them in the same exact way (making you the bad guy and her the innocent victim) to the counselor.

Now the details of the trip which she has lied about to herself and others seem like the truth to her. After all she told the fabricated details TWO times. Once to the other man and once more to the counselor.

Did she miss the OM while on the trip? Sure she did! She could maybe not e-mail him and call him while you were WITH HER ALL THE TIME! Except for the spa day...maybe. She was eager to get home.

Why put her energies into making your marriage better when she has an exciting "other man" to talk to WHENEVER SHE WANTS HIM! She gets all the attention she wants without having to change in any way ( like in order to save a marriage or anything...) she can say she is not having an affair because maybe it is not physical yet.


Here is the problem.

a) SHE IS HOSTILE but won't admit it

AND

b) SHE HAS AN EMOTIONAL AFFAIR GOING WITH THE OTHER MAN.

<small>[ August 24, 2004, 06:58 PM: Message edited by: baba2 ]</small>

Here is some good info about hostility:

http://www.coping.org/anger/hostile.htm

Help him Mysche!!!! We can't just have my opinion up here on this board! It may be too one sided.

Extremely Lost

Whew. The packers just left.. it’s been a doozy of a day. FYI, the loaders are coming tomorrow so if I don’t see your reply till later, I’m not ignoring you, I’m simply huddled in a corner having a nice, quiet, nervous breakdown.

I’m going to warn you that I’ve had a tough day. This post is a wee bit more direct than most, so put on your hard hat.. here comes the 2X4!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She does not want to rehash things and says when she want to stop with a discussion she has reached resolution. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep, did I call it, or what?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She said, "So I am expected, when I feel things are resolved, to continue discussing them even though it is going to get me upset?" I said, "So I am expected to never reach resolution and always continue to feel upset, so that you never have to feel upset?" This did not get us anywhere. So she said, "tell me what resolution you are looking for? I do not understand what it is you want." This was my chance and I blew it. I froze. I could not think of any good resolutions at the time and told her I could not give her an example right now. I said, if you would take a leap of faith and try the agreeing to stop arguing, setting a time to come back to it and then actually discussing it, I promised she would see that things got resolved better. She did not comment. Then she said, "So now it is going to be an argument about setting a time to come back to the argument." I said this could be avoided if we both be reasonable to each other. She shook her head. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, you were doing all right up until that last sentence: I said this could be avoided if we both be reasonable to each other. The problem is you two do not see eye to eye on what is reasonable. So, she truly feels she IS being reasonable all the while you’re telling her she’s not. You see the problem? She actually asked a REALLY smart question. And, not knowing a good answer now, is an appropriate answer. A better response to her “So now we’re arguing about setting a time to argue…” (paraphrased, I know…) would have been. No, I think you deserve an answer to your question about what constitutes a good resolution first. Let me work on that and I’ll bring this back up when I have an answer for you.

I can not emphasize enough the importance of the two of you having a set of RULES that you both understand in the same way before you open up this can of worms. Extremely Lost, this is going to be a GREAT strategy. But, you are only going to get ONE good shot at it, my friend. If it were me, I’d make DARN sure I had my ducks in a row before I trotted it out. I have a list of discussion rules saved somewhere and I’ll post them for you here on one condition. DO NOT print these out and just show them to your wife and say “THIS.” I want you to have a preview of them and then figure out a good strategy for each point so that you can explain it without loosing your opportunity. Fair?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> OK. I brought it up (maybe not in the best way I could have). I listened to what she had to say. What she had to say did not make sense. It skewed reality. It is not about her different POV it is about her lying - saying I was the one who would not stop, saying that I made reservations right away with 15 minutes until dinner, saying we went to a resturant that night for me. Allof these are flat out lies, not a different POV. So what do you take from what she said? I do not see how you can reasonably take much of anything accept that she felt she needed to lie to make her point. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You’re still not getting it. Let me take you back to my car accident example. If four people are standing around and witness a car accident, it is widely known that you are likely to get four very different versions of the incident. Those four versions would often defy the laws of physics if they were all true. The thing is, none of the witnesses is lying. I don’t think your wife was lying. She was relating (and listen very closely here) how she experienced that evening. Please try to stop being so offended that it doesn’t jive with your reality. You aren’t in her head. People focus on and remember different things.

Let me say this one more time. If you’re busy trying to get across your view of what happened, you will never be able to listen to her view. If you don’t get her view you will utterly miss what made her so upset and angry. If you utterly miss what made her upset and angry, you will be in this situation again.

Extremely Lost, it would be very helpful for you if you could find some way to focus on remembering what you’re trying to accomplish. You are trying to build agreement. Building agreement does not happen when you contradict everything your wife says. If you can’t agree with her rendition of the facts of that night, how about learning to agree that you both experienced or remember it differently? All you’re doing by insisting on putting forth your rendition of events is moving away from agreement with her. Is it more important to you to find some common ground and actually get to a place to work on your marriage or to put forth your version (the correct version, if you prefer) of what really happened?

What would be the pitfalls of agreeing you both remember or think differently about that evening? That she gets to keep her own opinion? I’m going to let you in on a little secret – she’s keeping her own opinion anyway. You’re shifting focus away from effective strategies and allowing the discussion to become mired in the details that you, yourself, profess aren’t important. Stop doing that.

When you start getting the urge to correct her story or relay the TRUE facts or tell your side of the story, stop for a moment and really consider how important that is versus finding some way to build agreement. I’m not saying agree to things that you think are false such as her version of the facts are the true, entire, objective truth, I’m saying find some level of agreement with her – even if it’s only that you agree that she believes what she says. Unless, of course, you don’t. And, if you don’t believe she is truly saying what she is thinking, then I fall back to my previous position. All you’re doing is digging yourself in deeper. You keep asking her to take these leaps of faith, I challenge you to take the leap of faith that what she is saying is truly how she THINKS and FEELS.

Look at it from her perspective. Can you imagine how frustrating it must be to try to talk to someone who keeps telling you that you’re wrong about how you say you feel or what you think?!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know she is angry with me. I know she will not dare admit this. When I brought this up, the MC said, "I am not sure it is anger as much as reacting from being hurt." What does this mean? If I get hurt, I get mad. I react because I am mad. Being mad is anger! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, that still doesn’t mean she has an anger “problem.” Or deep seated anger issues. Another interpretation could be YOU are still doing things that she finds hurtful and she is reacting to them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am sooooo ready. I just need her to be honest and fair with what she is saying. One of my boundaries is her lying like she did. Where do I go from here? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, this is a stopping point. Until you’re ready to listen to her and set aside your need to correct her “facts” or “feelings” or “memory” with your version of the truth, you can’t proceed. If she is going to have to experience life through your eyes, I suspect you’re at an impassable gulf. I’m sorry to say that, but that’s what I believe.

Look, Extremely Lost, I don’t think you’re a bad guy, really I don’t. I do think you’re missing a critical piece of understanding here and the problem is not your wife, it’s YOU. People get their facts muddled all the time. People have a way of looking at life through whatever emotions they’re experiencing at the time. If how you experienced an event disallows any other point of view or focus of facts or fuzziness of memory, then you are just not going to be able to listen to your wife. And, yes, I think she has a very legitimate complaint. I don’t think I’d label you “controlling” for it.. more like.. “stubborn.”

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When you love someone, you talk to them like you love them. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*sighs* Again, this is a matter of perspective. Maybe she IS talking to you as though she loves you – she just has a different idea of what that means. This is why building agreement is SO important.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I understand what you are saying about the FOOs but there is a difference between POVs and just flat out lying. In this situation, I am sorry, but I am right. If you learned that running into the back of someone's car that is stopped at an intersection is a good thing to do, you will get a ticket. If you continue to do this, you will go to jail. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That’s not necessarily what I meant. Let me reframe one part of the evening for you. After she didn’t want to go to your reservations (etc, etc..) she might have been lying there feeling guilty because you were hungry. She offered to go out and have dinner. You said you were no longer hungry. She didn’t believe you (do you see a trend here?) and insisted. So, you went. Now, in HER mind the reason she insisted is because she was absolutely CONVINCED you were hungry and that you wanted to eat something ergo, she went to the restaurant on your behalf.

It’s not a far fetched version of events, you know.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> No, I married a woman who does not come from a bad background. I married with the expectations of her having reason and accountability. I will not waiver in these expectations, nor do I feel anyone should. Yes, variances do apply, but not in being reasonable or accountable. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fine, I can agree with this statement. I think it is very reasonable to allow your wife to remember and feel about events the way she remembers and feels about them regardless of whether or not you happen to remember them or feel the same way. Would you agree that’s reasonable?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> By your saying my W has an unbelievably calm temper, are you saying that I am too extreme to get along with or what? I actually think the opposite. I think I am the one displaying the unbelievably calm temper. I only really get to vent in this post. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you lovebust quite a lot. You’re particularly bad at disrespectful judgments because you often ask questions and then completely disregard the answers. What’s worse.. is that you then assign malicious intent to the answers that YOU have replaced her answers with and then proceed upon that assumption. That behavior would absolutely infuriate me! If you all ready think you know the answer and aren’t going to believe me anyway, quit asking me what I think. Oh, and that’s not even touching upon the unmitigated arrogance of thinking you know what I think, how I feel, or why I do things better than I do.

I do realize that sounds harsh. And, I really don’t think you’re a bad guy or motivated by malicious intent. I don’t think you’re a chauvinist. I don’t think this habit means you’re controlling or want a barefoot and pregnant wife, I just think you’ve developed a bad habit that is undermining your attempts to successfully work on your relationship with your wife and I hope that you will consider changing that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If I ask her we will get into an argument because she has now accepted her lies as reality. I do not know what to do. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Those lies ARE her reality, Extremely Lost. You could try learning to accept that and trying to find some basis for building agreement anyway. Like I said, don’t agree with her on the objective facts; you can simply agree that she REALLY FEELS THAT WAY. You sound like you all ready know it, so stop treating her as though she doesn’t really believe what she says.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I understand what you are saying here. The one I have the problem with is number 3. My W was going to pack, get a cab, buy an extra plane ticket to fly cross Country on the day, rent a cab at home and cut her vacation in half. Her leaving would have made my entire vacation bad, so #3 would not have worked there. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, that would have been your choice. If she had left, you could have chosen to have a good time. It wouldn’t have been an unreasonable decision. Or, you could have chosen to cut your vacation short and do whatever you needed to do to manage your anger about it. The key difference is that when I say “I’d have made darn sure HE didn’t enjoy it”, I mean I’d actively love bust. It’s better for me to set a boundary around that type of behavior. I’m sure it would be a love buster to leave but that is NOTHING compared to the damage I could inflict if I was actively there and TRYING. I’m not saying it’s a particularly good way to act (sticking around and being vengeful) which is why I try to avoid it. The point is that most of us have a breaking point. I’ve learned to recognize mine. When I’m faced with that situation, I have to make the decision FOR MYSELF on what actions I am willing to take. I don’t like to tolerate vengeful behavior in myself so, when I’m unable to resist, I take steps to manage my own behavior. It’s not anyone’s fault but my own, it’s just that I’m human, too. Sometimes, I get really angry and I have a pretty good sense of whether or not I’m going to recover sooner or later. I have to deal with that as best I can.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Tell me, when you got out of the car on the road, did you get back in? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Eventually, yes. But only after he chased me and agreed to stop driving how he had been driving. I didn’t make it easy on him. When I got out of the car, I started walking the opposite way (away from traffic) then I turned at the end of the block. In order to catch up with me, he had to cut across 2 lanes of heavy traffic, make a u-turn, make a left turn, and then make another u-turn. And, no, it wasn’t a test to see if he’d come after me. I was actually hoping he’d take the hint and leave me the heck alone for a while. On an anger scale of 1 – 10, I would say I was about a 9.8. Nothing that was going to come out of my mouth was going to be coherent, reasonable, particularly truthful in general (though certainly truthful at the time), kind, productive, or marriage enhancing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My W's act was not one of protecting our M. It was purely selfish. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Or, it was her way of handling her anger.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Look, apparently, if I breath around my W she thinks I do not trust her somehow. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*sighs* Try very hard to draw a correlation between your wife’s belief and your utter disbelief in what she’s telling you! You are actively creating this impression. Let me say this again. YOU are actively creating this impression.

NOT because you don’t agree or change your mind about every little thing she says but because you actively don’t seem to believe that SHE believes what she says. Consider this statement:

But, how do I get her to give me her POV without lying or distorting reality?

Or, this one:

Now I am wondering why she has specifically lied in the MC.

or, this one:

All of these are flat out lies, not a different POV. So what do you take from what she said? I do not see how you can reasonably take much of anything accept that she felt she needed to lie to make her point.

Let me state this one more time and try to be very, very clear. The problem is NOT that you do not agree with her version of events. The problem is that you do NOT believe that she is saying what she truly believes and feels. The fact that you are assigning her malicious intent because her version does not agree with your version is THE PROBLEM. YOU are committing a disrespectful judgment and that is ACTIVELY causing your wife to feel as though you don’t believe her (trust her) because….. YOU DON’T!

You can begin to make real progress when you are willing to LISTEN to your wife without assuming, deciding, or judging that she is lying, deceiving you, making it all up for <whatever> reason, being intentionally obtuse, or obscuring the facts. You can’t HEAR what she is saying, Extremely Lost, because in your mind you are so fixed on what “Really” happened or what her actions mean to you that nothing she says has the power to get through to you. You are HURTING your wife.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now I truly do not believe my W is evil or a conwoman. I do believe she does not realize how she is when it comes to our M. For whatever reason, she has blinders on. I am looking for reasons too believe her, not the other way around. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And, you’re not evil, malicious, or insensitive. You have a very bad habit, though.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I agree with you and you are motivating me to try and ask her again tonight. But, how do I get her to give me her POV without lying or distorting reality? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You learn to accept that her reality can be as different as it needs to be from yours. You learn that accepting that does not mean that you accept all the blame, become the bad person in the situation, have to give up any of your own feelings of hurt, anger, and betrayal, or loose all hope of ever finding a solution. You simply learn to listen, acknowledge and then validate what she’s saying and accept that as HER truth. THEN, once you can do THAT (and it ain't gonna be easy for you) you learn to build agreement on some level even if it's that you have a Martian perspective and she has a Venusian perspective and you both need to figure out a way to stop letting that drive you so nuts. But first, you have to accept that she has her own personal truth and you have your own personal truth and two might not even seem to exist in the same universe. I'll grant it makes it harder, but it doesn't have to be hopeless.

All right, I’m going to hunt down those discussion rules a little later, I need to go find some food!

Mys

*sigh*

I'm glad you cam by Mys. I was seeing red when I read this and was going to respond tonight if you hadn't been by yet.

Baba - I'm glad that you are supportive of EL. But I'm not sure it's helpful to be placing blame on EL's wife when she isn't here to change anything. And, to be honest, I think enough blame is placed on her shoulders on this thread already. If we do accept the premise that EL's wife is exceptionally hostile (and I'm not sure I do), then how can we help EL behave in ways that might mitigate that hostility? I think the answer to that question ocmes in helping EL see how to eliminate LBs, fill the LB, and communicate better - the same goals we would have no matter the situation. So encouraging EL to focus on his wife's problems is maybe not helpful. *respectfully submitted*

EL- (just a little 2x4, am feeling defensive for myself given my SF situation and felt I needed to respond here - take it or leave it)
I have been staying away from this thread for a reason. And I will continue to come here and read, but post sparingly.

When I read your posts I feel for your wife. Her reactions sound like those of a caged animal. When I read your interactions it is painfully obvious to me that you do not yet have the ability to allow, let alone understand, her point of view. Not only that, but when she tries to express her point of view, you call her unreasonable, a liar, and more. You kindly say that you don't think she is a "conartist", but you stop barely short of that.

Your posts drip with outrage at the "irrational" things she is doing and you have questions as to how to "handle" such a wild thing.

I implore you, EL to consider that your wife's actions are completely reasonable, rational, and even warranted, from her point of view.

And that your goal, rather than fixing her or somehow convincing her that she has a "problem" that needs to be fixed, should be to try and understand her perspective. Note I'm not saying you have to agree with it, but simply "getting it" from her side. Listen to her. She is telling you exactly what she is experiencing. And you can not, I repeat: you can not, change her experience. You can only understand it, and work to improve yourself. It really is a liberating thing, to give up trying to control another person. Give your wife the freedom to act and feel as she chooses. And focus only on yourself. And making yourself better. Even better - thoughtfully consider the ways in which she recommends change for you, as she is the best information you have on ways to make her feel loved. But it has to start with being willing to listen to her, and accept what she says as her reality.

Finally, I have to say that I cringed when you mentioned the guy that she is communicating with. Now I don't know the whole story, no one here does. But in a post full of outrage and accusations towards your wife, to add in there the little bit about a potential OM. It feels like you are trying to add fuel to your own fire of resentment. I didn't sense from your tone that you are truly concerned about it, but I did sense that you are mad at your wife, and it was a "oh yeah... and this too..." kind of parting shot.

Love your wife. Listen to her. And, maybe, consider what the MC is saying too. It may not be right - some MCs are quacks, but it is worth your consideration that the MC readily sees your wife's POV. You can learn more about your wife from those sessions. You simply need to be willing to listen and accept your wife's point of view.

Also - I know you are likely to write back about the part where she was mis-stating the times. I am bad with time. I would be like your wife - I would likely recreate the evening as it *felt* to me. What your wife was communicating was that the dinner *felt* like it was so soon, and on and on. Don't focus so much on *reality* when what you have is two perspectives.

my .02 *respectfully submitted*

lfc

*adds hugs for teh Mys*

So you are truly int he midst, eh? What is the time table? When should I watch the news for spontaneous felonies committed in the mid west?

*thinking of you*

lfc

Extremely Lost

Good Morning! I thought a lot about it last night and I’ve decided to hold off on posting the discussion rules because I don’t want to bleed focus away from my rather lengthy feedback about communication issues. I would like to reiterate that I really think it’s important to get a very well thought out plan in place to approach her about your strategy for stopping discussions and scheduling them later and discussion rules. I think LFC and I can help you come up with one and you can hash it out with US first to get the kinks out <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

Just for the sake of clarity, and I’m not sure how much of that I had last night, I want to review a few things.

First, I don’t think you and I will disagree that ineffective communication is a huge barrier between you and your wife being able to build agreement. Part of the problem (not all of it) stems from your behavior. Frankly, you constantly sabotage your efforts in that area because you either do not recognize opportunities to build agreement OR you get so wrapped up in what you think, you feel, or you experience that you are unable to listen and acknowledge what she thinks, she feels, or she’s experienced.

I think (and this is only conjecture, feel free to correct me) that you are very concerned that your wife does not see YOUR point of view and that you do not feel heard. What you may not realize is that you are both probably walking around feeling the same way. A large part of the problem is simply the words you choose and the words she chooses. By now, you are both so caught up in the history of the relationship and past hurts, that you are BOTH (that means you, too) hyper vigilant about how things are phrased. I suspect that is what you mean when you say you want her to “speak to you as though she loves and cares about you.” Specific words and phrases that she has a bad HABIT of using to get her point across to you, don’t. Oh sure, they get a reaction, but they don’t actually communicate any meaning to you. You do the very same thing.

You two walk in to your MC sessions with big, red buttons all lit up and then proceed to press them like crazy. And, why your MC doesn’t step in and put an end to it is a complete and utter mystery to me. I know you didn’t ask, but I’ve got to say that I think what you two need is a much more active and engaged MC who will assertively push the BOTH of you into challenging your dysfunctional communication patterns instead of sitting back and only occasionally interjecting vague advice. Ya’ll need a referee with a whistle around her neck who is not afraid to blow it and short circuit the destructive patterns rather than listen to them for an hour. I nominate Baba. She even frightens ME sometimes. (Just poking fun at ya, Baba! I do love how you say what you say. )

So, anyway, then you come here… tell us what happened.. and we proceed to tell you how you pushed the buttons you pushed and your reply is “But she pushed MY buttons!” I really don’t want to make light of that either. *sighs deeply* I know you’re hurting, too. You do need some relief. It’s hard walking around trying to change habits when someone keeps zinging your hot buttons. So, let me just say I give you a lot of credit for your tenacity and your ability to come here, open yourself up, get whacked around the block by the MB 2X4, and then get in there and try again.

Just so we’re clear, that doesn’t mean you’re off the hook, though. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Direct as it was, I meant what I said in my earlier post about you learning to believe your wife's statements.

Moving right along.

I want to quickly recap the direction that I’m actively suggesting. The main problem that I see is that the two of you lack a foundation upon which to build agreements. That is a problem because it takes both of you to address problems within your marriage (like SF). Every time you try to have a discussion about the problems you’re experiencing you run into several road blocks. Those road blocks need to come down. The thing is that I think you and your wife have quite a lot in common and agreement between you two is totally possible if you BOTH would let go of some of your more stubborn dysfunctional behaviors. That is why I wish your MC had a little more mojo in her (I borrowed that word from LFC because I liked it so much).

Anyway, if wishes were dollars, I’d hire someone to be me for this week and go take a vacation. I fancy someplace warm.. with an ocean.

So, let’s make believe I was at your marriage counseling session. Here is what I’d tell YOU during that session (I’m going to role play what I’d say to your wife for the sake of clarity but CAUTION DO NOT TRY THIS YOURSELF. I’ll give you different strategies.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I also felt that both my W and I try to get in the last word in an argument. I realize that this is not a healthy communication skill and am willing to forgo my needing to have the last word if my W would be willing to agree that her last words are kind and caring." My W said, "I do not have to have the last word. I am only responding to you saying something unkind." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*whistle blowing*

STOP! You two don’t agree here.

EL, believes that the problem in your arguments is that you both want the last word.

ELW does not believe that she wants the last word in the argument.

.. if you both were here…
Let’s stop here and try to come to some agreement. First, EL, I need you to be very clear and acknowledge that your wife does not agree with your assessment that you BOTH want the last word in an argument situation. Therefore, she is probably not going to be open to your solution to a problem she doesn’t agree with. ELW, I need you to understand that EL believes that this is a problem and would like to do something about it. Whether or not that is really how you feel, it might be worthwhile to consider what EL is saying to you in an effort to improve communication.

I’d like to point out to you BOTH how closely what you are saying mirrors each other. In essence, EL is willing to discontinue an argument if ELW is willing to say something kind and caring. ELW’s is saying that she’s responding to an unkind word from EL. Can you both see how what you are saying is very similar. You both seem to indicate that you are responding to an unkind statement.

… what YOU, EL, can do…
All right, W, I understand that you do not agree with me about both wanting to have the last word. I think we are saying very similar things. Perhaps the problem isn’t so much that we both need to have the last word but that we both start saying unkind things to each other and then it escalates out of the control and doesn’t stop. How do you feel about that?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now I went through this lengthy explanation to show how she is skewing reality unfairly. Again, I told the MC, "this is not true." I explained it all to her. My W just shook her head. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*whistle blowing before you got a good head of steam about what “really happened”*

The focus here is about building agreement not about proving right and wrong. Let’s focus on the problem we are trying to solve. The problem we are trying to solve is not what time you went to dinner and how long that was after you had lunch. The problem we are trying to solve right now is why your arguments spin out of control.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Then my W made the comment that she gave quite a lot during this trip.
<snip>
This is the resturant she tells the MC she gave to me by going to this resturant. What the F__K? So again, I explain this all to the MC and she shakes her head. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*whistle blowing*

STOP!

.. if you both were here …

EL, I need you to understand and acknowledge that your wife feels she gave a lot during this trip. That means from her perspective she was putting forth effort.

ELW, I need you to understand and acknowledge that the effort you put into the trip was not done in a way that was meaningful to EL.

The problem we are trying to solve HERE is, in what ways can ELW’s effort work to meet EL’s needs. (Not whether she did or didn’t put effort into the trip.)


.. what YOU can do, EL

I appreciate that you were putting effort into giving on this trip. I don’t want to seem ungrateful, but I also hate to see you putting effort into some area that is not effectively meeting my needs. By the time we got around to going out to dinner, I think that we were both too angry. I appreciate the thought, but what I really would have appreciated at that time would have been the ability to talk safely about the problems we had earlier in the day. I was hurting and would have preferred some reassurance instead of dinner.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I then say that there is another thing I would like to reach agreement on. I explained, "I really think that if we could agree on a word or phrase that one of us could say that would let the other know that this person needs for the argument to stop, it would really help." I also explained, "this would need to be a two fold agreement. the person that uses this phrase or word would be responsible for telling the other when they would most likely be willing to re-approach this subject again. It would also need to be agreed that we would have a "safe" discussion when we come back to this topic." My W said,"Why do you need a phrase or a word? Isn't STOP good enough for you? Why won't STOP work? Why do we have to come up with a stupid phrase?" I said,"The fact that you insinuated that my idea was stupid hurts me." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*whistle blowing*

STOP!!!

EL, why won’t STOP work? If you both agree right here, right now that STOP is the safe phrase, would that be acceptable to you?

ELW, <long explanation on using I phrases and avoiding the word stupid>.

.. I’m running out of time so here’s YOUR strategy.

Actually, we don’t need an additional phrase. STOP would work as long as we both can agree that when one or the other says “STOP” then we both stop. That works for me if it works for you.


LFC

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> *adds hugs for teh Mys*

So you are truly int he midst, eh? What is the time table? When should I watch the news for spontaneous felonies committed in the mid west?

*thinking of you* </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Yeah, I really am. I had a few thoughts on your thread that I’ll try to get to later but since I’m here I’ll post to you (I know you read this thread – sorry for the brief threadjack, EL). A very brief summary would be:

1.) Very, very, excellently well done on both your conversation and your ability to meet your H’s needs safely. I applaud the clear and concise way that you were able to communicate your boundaries and “danger areas” during the time. You have come SUCH a long way. I am always so uplifted by your courage and grace. You make me smile, LFC. *hugs*

2.) We need to talk a bit about the “You’re upset, you comfort him” cycle that people have brought up. But, it’s not so urgent and you’re doing so remarkably well, that it can wait until I’m back to my normal level of insanity.

Ok, I’m off to the salt mines. I’ll catch you all on the flip side!

Mys