Hello guys,

Well, I was happy to see a lot of response to my last post. Even if my head is sore. Ouch!

To bring you guys up to speed, the "board" my W is on is trying to make a change to our covenants that takes 80% of the home owners. The meeting is tonight and my W found out that a lot of people had dropped the ball on getting proxys. My W spent most of the day trying to go around and get signatures yesterday. When I got home, I went and changed and then picked up my W and S and drove her to different homes because it started raining. I believe my W felt this was helpful. Anyway, we took a break and went home for dinner.

While we were making dinner, I said," Honey, I would like to ask you a question and do not want to get into a large discussion over it." She looked at me rolling her eyes. I said, "I would just like to ask for a clarification as to what really upset you during our trip because I still think I do not fully understand what you have been trying to tell me." She said, "It was that you would not let things drop." I said, "This is where I get confused, because I did try to stop before things got out of control when we were still in the car." She said, "I know you asked to stop in the car at first, but then other issues kept coming up and we continued to argue about other things. Asking if I picked the Mexican resturant to get back at you started things up again." I said, "Thank you for explaining it to me again." This was it. We made dinner and ate.

Then my W tried to call the person in charge of getting all the 750 homes proxys. It just so happens that this is the "guy" I was talking about. She wanted to let him know how many signatures she had and what other areas needed to sign. He did not answer the phone. Then I offered to go back out and drive her to different houses. We did and she got more signatures. Then I offered to drive her over to his house to drop off the signatures. She said ok and we went over. He was not home. We went back home and this guy called her to discuss the signatures. She talked to him on the phone in front of me.

Baba - I need to be careful with your advice. As your advice does offer some perspectives, I feel that it is not right on. I do not believe that my W and this OM are having an EA. I do think things are innocent and my W is trying really hard to do a good job as a board member. I have a very hard time viewing this reality when you write the things that you do because my past mistrust issues cause me to look at things through a conspiracy theorist's view. This makes it difficult to have a good marriage and is helping to promote what Myschae is saying I am doing, where I am asking my W a question, but not believing her. The meeting is tonight and last night I said to her that I would be interested in going to this meeting. I said, "I do not want you to feel that I do not trust you or that I am going to check up on you, I simply am interested in finding out what is happening and would be there in support of your great efforts." She said, "Thats fine. I do not take it that way. In the past, I would say I am going to a meeting and you would ask if you could go and I would say OK and then you would say, unless you do not want me there. This is what makes me feel like you do not trust me." So I am going to the meeting tonight.

Baba, please understand that I truly do not see any huge red flags with her and this guy yet. She is required to interact with this guy because of being involved with the "board." The only flags that spring up are the ones that are caused by my own insecurities and I need to address them. As I told Myschae, I am concerned that if I do not get my own insecurities into check, I could be forcing a self fulfilling prophecy.

Baba, you need to understand that this is my second marriage and I have already went through a marriage with a cheating W who did all of the things you mention. I was on a trip with my first W and after she was intimate with me had to call the OM. I did not find this out until after the M, but it is this kind of thing from my past that is causing me to over think reality in this current situation. My writting what I did yesterday was to let you guys know what was going on in my mind (scary, I know). To let you know the demons I battle on a daily basis. Believe me, if I found out anything was not right with this situation, I would be calling a spade a spade no matter what her POV was.

Myschae -

Thanks as always for taking the obviously long time with me. I do appreciate it and will try not to take a ton of your time up with saying the same things over and over again (sometimes I am not too successful at it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> ).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Whew. The packers just left.. it’s been a doozy of a day. FYI, the loaders are coming tomorrow so if I don’t see your reply till later, I’m not ignoring you, I’m simply huddled in a corner having a nice, quiet, nervous breakdown.

I’m going to warn you that I’ve had a tough day. This post is a wee bit more direct than most, so put on your hard hat.. here comes the 2X4!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand you are busy and am thankful for the time you can put into hitting me over the head.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ok, you were doing all right up until that last sentence: I said this could be avoided if we both be reasonable to each other. The problem is you two do not see eye to eye on what is reasonable. So, she truly feels she IS being reasonable all the while you’re telling her she’s not. You see the problem? She actually asked a REALLY smart question. And, not knowing a good answer now, is an appropriate answer. A better response to her “So now we’re arguing about setting a time to argue…” (paraphrased, I know…) would have been. No, I think you deserve an answer to your question about what constitutes a good resolution first. Let me work on that and I’ll bring this back up when I have an answer for you.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right. I blew it, but I think it may be recoverable. I need to put some thoughts together and bring this up again. I will try to run this by you guys before I do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I can not emphasize enough the importance of the two of you having a set of RULES that you both understand in the same way before you open up this can of worms. Extremely Lost, this is going to be a GREAT strategy. But, you are only going to get ONE good shot at it, my friend. If it were me, I’d make DARN sure I had my ducks in a row before I trotted it out. I have a list of discussion rules saved somewhere and I’ll post them for you here on one condition. DO NOT print these out and just show them to your wife and say “THIS.” I want you to have a preview of them and then figure out a good strategy for each point so that you can explain it without loosing your opportunity. Fair? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This sounds fair to me. I would not just print them out and hand them to her. I feel each M needs to have things tailored to them specifically.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What would be the pitfalls of agreeing you both remember or think differently about that evening? That she gets to keep her own opinion? I’m going to let you in on a little secret – she’s keeping her own opinion anyway. You’re shifting focus away from effective strategies and allowing the discussion to become mired in the details that you, yourself, profess aren’t important. Stop doing that.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with you. Where I took exception was when her POV can be proven to not follow reality. Having said this, my POV could be proven to not follow reality either, such as the sign that I misinturpreted. I would venture to guess that as I start validating her POVs more, her POV may start to realign with reality a bit more. The same with me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Look at it from her perspective. Can you imagine how frustrating it must be to try to talk to someone who keeps telling you that you’re wrong about how you say you feel or what you think?! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I can imagine this because I feel we do it to each other. For instance, last night, my W says you are driving on such and such's yard (when I pulled into the drive way. I said, "I am not on the yard." She gets out of the car and walks around it to take a look and finds I am not on their yard. This makes me feel like she does not trust me. I understand we do the same thing to each other. I need to not do this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, that still doesn’t mean she has an anger “problem.” Or deep seated anger issues. Another interpretation could be YOU are still doing things that she finds hurtful and she is reacting to them. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is more than this though. She is preparing to react this way in anticipation of what I am going to say or do. I can see it in the way she tenses up, folds her arms, makes facial expressions just before we talk about anything to do with our M.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, this is a stopping point. Until you’re ready to listen to her and set aside your need to correct her “facts” or “feelings” or “memory” with your version of the truth, you can’t proceed. If she is going to have to experience life through your eyes, I suspect you’re at an impassable gulf. I’m sorry to say that, but that’s what I believe.

Look, Extremely Lost, I don’t think you’re a bad guy, really I don’t. I do think you’re missing a critical piece of understanding here and the problem is not your wife, it’s YOU. People get their facts muddled all the time. People have a way of looking at life through whatever emotions they’re experiencing at the time. If how you experienced an event disallows any other point of view or focus of facts or fuzziness of memory, then you are just not going to be able to listen to your wife. And, yes, I think she has a very legitimate complaint. I don’t think I’d label you “controlling” for it.. more like.. “stubborn.”
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I will agree with you here. We always used to joke with each other on how stubborn we both were and combining this for our S will create superior stubborness.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> *sighs* Again, this is a matter of perspective. Maybe she IS talking to you as though she loves you – she just has a different idea of what that means. This is why building agreement is SO important. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Giving the benefit of the doubt here, maybe you are right and this is how she thinks she is talking to me in a loving way. I can tell you it is not how she used to talk to me in a loving way. It is her earlier way of talking lovingly with me that I understood.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> That’s not necessarily what I meant. Let me reframe one part of the evening for you. After she didn’t want to go to your reservations (etc, etc..) she might have been lying there feeling guilty because you were hungry. She offered to go out and have dinner. You said you were no longer hungry. She didn’t believe you (do you see a trend here?) and insisted. So, you went. Now, in HER mind the reason she insisted is because she was absolutely CONVINCED you were hungry and that you wanted to eat something ergo, she went to the restaurant on your behalf.

It’s not a far fetched version of events, you know.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see. I was not able (for whatever reason) to see it this way until you wrote it out like this. Thanks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Fine, I can agree with this statement. I think it is very reasonable to allow your wife to remember and feel about events the way she remembers and feels about them regardless of whether or not you happen to remember them or feel the same way. Would you agree that’s reasonable?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think you lovebust quite a lot. You’re particularly bad at disrespectful judgments because you often ask questions and then completely disregard the answers. What’s worse.. is that you then assign malicious intent to the answers that YOU have replaced her answers with and then proceed upon that assumption. That behavior would absolutely infuriate me! If you all ready think you know the answer and aren’t going to believe me anyway, quit asking me what I think. Oh, and that’s not even touching upon the unmitigated arrogance of thinking you know what I think, how I feel, or why I do things better than I do.

I do realize that sounds harsh. And, I really don’t think you’re a bad guy or motivated by malicious intent. I don’t think you’re a chauvinist. I don’t think this habit means you’re controlling or want a barefoot and pregnant wife, I just think you’ve developed a bad habit that is undermining your attempts to successfully work on your relationship with your wife and I hope that you will consider changing that.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Consider changing it? Of Course I want to change it. Unfortunately, it is not as simple as me going, ok, I want to change this. I do not see when I am doing it. I do not understand how to change it. I just do not get it. I am currently not capable (again, for whatever reason) understanding some of my W's different POVs at the necessary times. I am in trouble here. I feel helpless and stupid.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Those lies ARE her reality, Extremely Lost. You could try learning to accept that and trying to find some basis for building agreement anyway. Like I said, don’t agree with her on the objective facts; you can simply agree that she REALLY FEELS THAT WAY. You sound like you all ready know it, so stop treating her as though she doesn’t really believe what she says.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess I am just having trouble accepting these particular facts as her reality because it makes me look worse than I really am. Now, I am guessing that the next thing you are going to say is, THIS IS HOW SHE SEES ME RIGHT NOW. OK, I will accept this even though it is unbelievably hurtful. The hard thing for me is that I believe I am not acting in a way (right now anyway) to diserve this ugly of a picture of me. I am sure you and LFC will disagree with this last statement and point out the continued LBing and DJs that I apparently spew out all the time. I just feel retarded because as I said above, I still am not seeing these actions of mine at times.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, that would have been your choice. If she had left, you could have chosen to have a good time. It wouldn’t have been an unreasonable decision. Or, you could have chosen to cut your vacation short and do whatever you needed to do to manage your anger about it. The key difference is that when I say “I’d have made darn sure HE didn’t enjoy it”, I mean I’d actively love bust. It’s better for me to set a boundary around that type of behavior. I’m sure it would be a love buster to leave but that is NOTHING compared to the damage I could inflict if I was actively there and TRYING. I’m not saying it’s a particularly good way to act (sticking around and being vengeful) which is why I try to avoid it. The point is that most of us have a breaking point. I’ve learned to recognize mine. When I’m faced with that situation, I have to make the decision FOR MYSELF on what actions I am willing to take. I don’t like to tolerate vengeful behavior in myself so, when I’m unable to resist, I take steps to manage my own behavior. It’s not anyone’s fault but my own, it’s just that I’m human, too. Sometimes, I get really angry and I have a pretty good sense of whether or not I’m going to recover sooner or later. I have to deal with that as best I can.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fair enough. Then I think this should be explained fully to the partner you are practicing this on because their reality or POV could simply be, if you walk out, we are done, not by my choice, but it is the choice of the person walking out. This does not make either POV wrong, but either POV is still valid.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Eventually, yes. But only after he chased me and agreed to stop driving how he had been driving. I didn’t make it easy on him. When I got out of the car, I started walking the opposite way (away from traffic) then I turned at the end of the block. In order to catch up with me, he had to cut across 2 lanes of heavy traffic, make a u-turn, make a left turn, and then make another u-turn. And, no, it wasn’t a test to see if he’d come after me. I was actually hoping he’d take the hint and leave me the heck alone for a while. On an anger scale of 1 – 10, I would say I was about a 9.8. Nothing that was going to come out of my mouth was going to be coherent, reasonable, particularly truthful in general (though certainly truthful at the time), kind, productive, or marriage enhancing.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I apologize up front if you take this wrong, but... You get out of the car because your H is not driving safe. Then you get back in the car after "making him" drive recklessly to get to you. This does not appear to make sense to me. Sorry if I missed something here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Or, it was her way of handling her anger. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Giving her the benefit of the doubt, the answer would be yes.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Let me state this one more time and try to be very, very clear. The problem is NOT that you do not agree with her version of events. The problem is that you do NOT believe that she is saying what she truly believes and feels. The fact that you are assigning her malicious intent because her version does not agree with your version is THE PROBLEM. YOU are committing a disrespectful judgment and that is ACTIVELY causing your wife to feel as though you don’t believe her (trust her) because….. YOU DON’T! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK. I can see what you mean here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You can begin to make real progress when you are willing to LISTEN to your wife without assuming, deciding, or judging that she is lying, deceiving you, making it all up for <whatever> reason, being intentionally obtuse, or obscuring the facts. You can’t HEAR what she is saying, Extremely Lost, because in your mind you are so fixed on what “Really” happened or what her actions mean to you that nothing she says has the power to get through to you. You are HURTING your wife. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">God, I wish this was as easy as realizing my issue and deciding to stop it. I do not know how to actively stop my mind from processing and preprocessing what my W says. Maybe this is what I need to be bringing up in MC. Maybe you will be saying "Duh!" now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And, you’re not evil, malicious, or insensitive. You have a very bad habit, though.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Agreed.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You learn to accept that her reality can be as different as it needs to be from yours. You learn that accepting that does not mean that you accept all the blame, become the bad person in the situation, have to give up any of your own feelings of hurt, anger, and betrayal, or loose all hope of ever finding a solution. You simply learn to listen, acknowledge and then validate what she’s saying and accept that as HER truth. THEN, once you can do THAT (and it ain't gonna be easy for you) you learn to build agreement on some level even if it's that you have a Martian perspective and she has a Venusian perspective and you both need to figure out a way to stop letting that drive you so nuts. But first, you have to accept that she has her own personal truth and you have your own personal truth and two might not even seem to exist in the same universe. I'll grant it makes it harder, but it doesn't have to be hopeless.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In the past I believe our POVs did not really differ as much as they do now. I would be willing to suspect that once I (hopefully) figure out how to do all this, our POVs could become more similar.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Good Morning! I thought a lot about it last night and I’ve decided to hold off on posting the discussion rules because I don’t want to bleed focus away from my rather lengthy feedback about communication issues. I would like to reiterate that I really think it’s important to get a very well thought out plan in place to approach her about your strategy for stopping discussions and scheduling them later and discussion rules. I think LFC and I can help you come up with one and you can hash it out with US first to get the kinks out .
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would really appreciate this. Thanks for the help.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> First, I don’t think you and I will disagree that ineffective communication is a huge barrier between you and your wife being able to build agreement. Part of the problem (not all of it) stems from your behavior. Frankly, you constantly sabotage your efforts in that area because you either do not recognize opportunities to build agreement OR you get so wrapped up in what you think, you feel, or you experience that you are unable to listen and acknowledge what she thinks, she feels, or she’s experienced.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe you are right on with this. I am guilty of both.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think (and this is only conjecture, feel free to correct me) that you are very concerned that your wife does not see YOUR point of view and that you do not feel heard. What you may not realize is that you are both probably walking around feeling the same way. A large part of the problem is simply the words you choose and the words she chooses. By now, you are both so caught up in the history of the relationship and past hurts, that you are BOTH (that means you, too) hyper vigilant about how things are phrased. I suspect that is what you mean when you say you want her to “speak to you as though she loves and cares about you.” Specific words and phrases that she has a bad HABIT of using to get her point across to you, don’t. Oh sure, they get a reaction, but they don’t actually communicate any meaning to you. You do the very same thing.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No disagreement here. You are right. I do think we both feel this way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You two walk in to your MC sessions with big, red buttons all lit up and then proceed to press them like crazy. And, why your MC doesn’t step in and put an end to it is a complete and utter mystery to me. I know you didn’t ask, but I’ve got to say that I think what you two need is a much more active and engaged MC who will assertively push the BOTH of you into challenging your dysfunctional communication patterns instead of sitting back and only occasionally interjecting vague advice. Ya’ll need a referee with a whistle around her neck who is not afraid to blow it and short circuit the destructive patterns rather than listen to them for an hour. I nominate Baba. She even frightens ME sometimes. (Just poking fun at ya, Baba! I do love how you say what you say. )
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am glad you wrote this. I did ask for people's opinions in my original post yesterday, but when I had to rewrite it, I forgot it. I am concerned that the MC is not taking the rains enough. However, I am also very concerned that if I say this MC is not right for us, my W will agree and then I will never get her back to MC again. This is not me making this up. This is real. From previous posts, I explain how we had went to two different Cs already and they got my W so turned off on their ability to help, that it was very difficult to get her to go back. So I am afraid, we are a bit stuck with the MC we have for right now. Maybe there is a way that I can get the MC to become more of a referee? I do not know. But the situation I described to you regarding our MC session is typical of the last 6 sessions. I had went to this MC for about 6 visits before my W joined in and I mentioned all of my W's resentment of Cs so maybe (giving the benefit of the doubt to the MC) she is just taking things slow. However, this causes my W to actually feel like MC is not really accomplishing much for us. I feel this way as well sometimes.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, anyway, then you come here… tell us what happened.. and we proceed to tell you how you pushed the buttons you pushed and your reply is “But she pushed MY buttons!” I really don’t want to make light of that either. *sighs deeply* I know you’re hurting, too. You do need some relief. It’s hard walking around trying to change habits when someone keeps zinging your hot buttons. So, let me just say I give you a lot of credit for your tenacity and your ability to come here, open yourself up, get whacked around the block by the MB 2X4, and then get in there and try again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks. It means a lot to me that you said that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Just so we’re clear, that doesn’t mean you’re off the hook, though. Direct as it was, I meant what I said in my earlier post about you learning to believe your wife's statements.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Got it! Would not have it any other way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I want to quickly recap the direction that I’m actively suggesting. The main problem that I see is that the two of you lack a foundation upon which to build agreements. That is a problem because it takes both of you to address problems within your marriage (like SF). Every time you try to have a discussion about the problems you’re experiencing you run into several road blocks. Those road blocks need to come down. The thing is that I think you and your wife have quite a lot in common and agreement between you two is totally possible if you BOTH would let go of some of your more stubborn dysfunctional behaviors. That is why I wish your MC had a little more mojo in her (I borrowed that word from LFC because I liked it so much).

Anyway, if wishes were dollars, I’d hire someone to be me for this week and go take a vacation. I fancy someplace warm.. with an ocean.

So, let’s make believe I was at your marriage counseling session. Here is what I’d tell YOU during that session (I’m going to role play what I’d say to your wife for the sake of clarity but CAUTION DO NOT TRY THIS YOURSELF. I’ll give you different strategies.)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This was totally cool! I wish the MC would say these things. I can see how this would be helpful and allow forward progress. This is making me question our MC even more in my mind, but like I said, I am scared of the alternatives (never getting my W back into MC and not finding and MC that works for us).

Thanks Myschae, what you have said in these last two posts do make a lot of sense, as well as scare me sometimes because I doubt in my own ability to effectively change.

LFC -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm glad you cam by Mys. I was seeing red when I read this and was going to respond tonight if you hadn't been by yet.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am really sorry for this. I never intended on making anyone upset, including my own W.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Baba - I'm glad that you are supportive of EL. But I'm not sure it's helpful to be placing blame on EL's wife when she isn't here to change anything. And, to be honest, I think enough blame is placed on her shoulders on this thread already. If we do accept the premise that EL's wife is exceptionally hostile (and I'm not sure I do), then how can we help EL behave in ways that might mitigate that hostility? I think the answer to that question ocmes in helping EL see how to eliminate LBs, fill the LB, and communicate better - the same goals we would have no matter the situation. So encouraging EL to focus on his wife's problems is maybe not helpful. *respectfully submitted*
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for this. I do not believe my W is "exceptionally hostile." I also do try to be as fair as I can, which is why I write as much as I do. I am not trying to associate "blame" to my W. Maybe, I indirectly do through what I end up writing. If this is the case, please understand that it was truly not my intentions. You are right, figuring out how to stop LBing and DJing (although I am not allowed to use the word "disrespectful"), when I have extreme trouble seeing when I am doing it, filling her LB and learning to communicate better are the major goals for me to be focusing on right now. I also need to work on my internal mistrust issues and keep these in check. I am fearful, that if I mention anything to do with another guy (no matter how innocent it is) it will be taken wrong and to the next level by posters. This does not help me keep my sanity in check.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> EL- (just a little 2x4, am feeling defensive for myself given my SF situation and felt I needed to respond here - take it or leave it)
I have been staying away from this thread for a reason. And I will continue to come here and read, but post sparingly. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do miss and welcome your posts.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When I read your posts I feel for your wife. Her reactions sound like those of a caged animal. When I read your interactions it is painfully obvious to me that you do not yet have the ability to allow, let alone understand, her point of view. Not only that, but when she tries to express her point of view, you call her unreasonable, a liar, and more. You kindly say that you don't think she is a "conartist", but you stop barely short of that. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK. That makes me feel really bad. You've got my attention.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Your posts drip with outrage at the "irrational" things she is doing and you have questions as to how to "handle" such a wild thing.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I had problems with my W changing real physical things such as times and claiming she did what I actually did.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I implore you, EL to consider that your wife's actions are completely reasonable, rational, and even warranted, from her point of view. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And that your goal, rather than fixing her or somehow convincing her that she has a "problem" that needs to be fixed, should be to try and understand her perspective. Note I'm not saying you have to agree with it, but simply "getting it" from her side. Listen to her. She is telling you exactly what she is experiencing. And you can not, I repeat: you can not, change her experience. You can only understand it, and work to improve yourself. It really is a liberating thing, to give up trying to control another person. Give your wife the freedom to act and feel as she chooses. And focus only on yourself. And making yourself better. Even better - thoughtfully consider the ways in which she recommends change for you, as she is the best information you have on ways to make her feel loved. But it has to start with being willing to listen to her, and accept what she says as her reality.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I really want to do this and will try harder. As I explained to Myschae, I am just having large difficulties accomplishing this. My intentions are there, but my actions (for why, I do not know), are not supporting this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Finally, I have to say that I cringed when you mentioned the guy that she is communicating with. Now I don't know the whole story, no one here does. But in a post full of outrage and accusations towards your wife, to add in there the little bit about a potential OM. It feels like you are trying to add fuel to your own fire of resentment. I didn't sense from your tone that you are truly concerned about it, but I did sense that you are mad at your wife, and it was a "oh yeah... and this too..." kind of parting shot. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then I did not get across what I was trying to get across. I mentioned this to give an example of what I am fighting to control in MY MIND on a daily basis caused by my past. I was not using it to further build any resentment towards my W. In fact, I was trying to do the opposite here. I was hoping through my writing it on this post, you guys would come back and say, "EL, you are getting off track here. From all that you have described, we do not believe this is happening. You need to work harder at keeping you mistrust issues in check." But, what I got was BABA sending me to divorce court, you feeling that I was trying to further build resentment towards my W and Myschae skipping this. I hope it is more clear now as to what I was trying to do and miserably failed at. I was looking for some kind of reassurence from your POVs.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Love your wife. Listen to her. And, maybe, consider what the MC is saying too. It may not be right - some MCs are quacks, but it is worth your consideration that the MC readily sees your wife's POV. You can learn more about your wife from those sessions. You simply need to be willing to listen and accept your wife's point of view.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do truly love her. I will try to listen harder without preassessing her intentions or motives; and, I will try to believe in what she is telling me. I will accept her POV.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Also - I know you are likely to write back about the part where she was mis-stating the times. I am bad with time. I would be like your wife - I would likely recreate the evening as it *felt* to me. What your wife was communicating was that the dinner *felt* like it was so soon, and on and on. Don't focus so much on *reality* when what you have is two perspectives.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am glad you wrote this, because I would have written this back. Thanks for the clarification.

LFC, thanks for your .02 cents. I really appreciate it and it does help to keep me in check.

Thanks to you all,

EL

EL,

I do not think I have ever posted to you, so, HI!!!

I drive my husband nuts. There, I said it. Early in our marriage something would come up and he would tell me how I felt, that my reality was not the same as his and HE was right while I was wrong. He would get annoyed because I could not PROVE what time something happened and may be off by 15 minutes in what we were discussing, similar to you. SO, what that lead to was 1. I started ALWAYS looking at the clock when we would start talking, or when we would start arguing, etc. Thus I could say with 100% confidence that I had the time right. Who the heck really cares if it wass 5:30 or 5:45???? Well, he did, since he used it as a way to discount all of my feelings and thoughts, because I was not right on the money about the time such and such happened. Which lead to 2. I stay pretty calm during discussion, and make sure I am paying close attention to ALL details so that if it ever comes up again *I* have reality right. Which lead to 3. H writes on calendars when I am wrong about something, anything, because it happens so rarely he gets a kick out of being able to say that every once in a while I AM wrong. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> This carried over into all areas of life. I developed a great memory for details.

It took me years to get him to see that he was constantly telling me what I SHOULD be feeling, and that MY own personal feelings were wrong, instead of accepting what I really felt. I took that as him telling me that I was not allowed to have emotions of MY OWN, and that I had to think and feel just like him. It was a horrible way to try to work together. It just plain didn't work, it made me depressed and unhappy, and him lost in space. Eventually, we got to a place where I started stopping him, letting him know he was trying to dictate my emotions, and refusing to talk to him until he could be in a mind frame to LISTEN to me and not tell me I was wrong.

Can you ask her if she feels that you try to dictate her feelings, and tell her that her feelings are wrong?

If you can and her answer is yes, then you might want to ask her to HELP you change that, ask that she gently point it out when you start doing that, so that you can learn to recognize when you are doing it. However, you have to be willing to ACCEPT that she FEELS you are doing this and stop the behavior.

By NOT changing that dynamic she jut might get to a place where she no long trusts herself, has any belief in herself, decides she isn't allowed to feel so she shuts off emtionally, tearing down her self-esteem, etc. You can prevent that by allowing her to be her own person with her own thoughts, feelings, and memories. IF you can't allow that, then I would start to wonder about you being overly controlling.

I think you are good guy, that would like to change the dynamic, you are getting excellent advice and direction from mys and others, so reread the entire thread a few times, and then reread mys's posts a few times. See if maybe reading your own posts again now shows you something different that what you would have seen last week.

Hello Mybestfriendswife,

I like your name. Welcome to this thread. I believe it is very useful to gain perspective through many different poster's POVs. Therefore, thanks for participating.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I drive my husband nuts. There, I said it. Early in our marriage something would come up and he would tell me how I felt, that my reality was not the same as his and HE was right while I was wrong. He would get annoyed because I could not PROVE what time something happened and may be off by 15 minutes in what we were discussing, similar to you. SO, what that lead to was 1. I started ALWAYS looking at the clock when we would start talking, or when we would start arguing, etc. Thus I could say with 100% confidence that I had the time right. Who the heck really cares if it wass 5:30 or 5:45???? Well, he did, since he used it as a way to discount all of my feelings and thoughts, because I was not right on the money about the time such and such happened. Which lead to 2. I stay pretty calm during discussion, and make sure I am paying close attention to ALL details so that if it ever comes up again *I* have reality right. Which lead to 3. H writes on calendars when I am wrong about something, anything, because it happens so rarely he gets a kick out of being able to say that every once in a while I AM wrong. This carried over into all areas of life. I developed a great memory for details. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am sorry you went through this. Actually writing on calendars when he felt you "made a mistake" is over the top. I also agree there is not much difference between whether it is 5:30 or 5:45, until the difference in timing makes the other look much worse than they were. Then I feel this is actually reasonable to expect someone to understand the difference. I feel it is only fair.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It took me years to get him to see that he was constantly telling me what I SHOULD be feeling, and that MY own personal feelings were wrong, instead of accepting what I really felt. I took that as him telling me that I was not allowed to have emotions of MY OWN, and that I had to think and feel just like him. It was a horrible way to try to work together. It just plain didn't work, it made me depressed and unhappy, and him lost in space. Eventually, we got to a place where I started stopping him, letting him know he was trying to dictate my emotions, and refusing to talk to him until he could be in a mind frame to LISTEN to me and not tell me I was wrong. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand what you are saying here. Did this cause you to loose emotional trust in your H. Did it cause you to loose SF desire? What caused you to start stopping him instead of continuing on towards withdrawl?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Can you ask her if she feels that you try to dictate her feelings, and tell her that her feelings are wrong? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, I do not think I really need to ask. My W has said to me that she feels anything she does is not right, and is not good enough. She has also said to me (during frustrating discussions), "Tell me what I am supposed to say," or "tell me what you want me to do." These things are said sarcastically. So, I think it is along similar lines to what you have brought up.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you can and her answer is yes, then you might want to ask her to HELP you change that, ask that she gently point it out when you start doing that, so that you can learn to recognize when you are doing it. However, you have to be willing to ACCEPT that she FEELS you are doing this and stop the behavior. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have asked her to help identify when she feels this way. The MC also asked her to help me out. She has tried a couple of times, but is not consistent with this yet. I do not know how to help her be consistent with this when I do not see that I am doing these things, when I do them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> By NOT changing that dynamic she jut might get to a place where she no long trusts herself, has any belief in herself, decides she isn't allowed to feel so she shuts off emtionally, tearing down her self-esteem, etc. You can prevent that by allowing her to be her own person with her own thoughts, feelings, and memories. IF you can't allow that, then I would start to wonder about you being overly controlling. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can allow this and want to allow this. I am so nervous about any of my behavior for fear of doing something wrong or making her feel a certain way. I am completely on egg shells in a room with no light. This is how I feel, not knowing which way to step and unable to see a path to get me out of this room.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think you are good guy, that would like to change the dynamic, you are getting excellent advice and direction from mys and others, so reread the entire thread a few times, and then reread mys's posts a few times. See if maybe reading your own posts again now shows you something different that what you would have seen last week. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is excellent advice and I do see differences in me since my very earlier posts. Thanks so much for joining in.

Take Care,

EL

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thanks as always for taking the obviously long time with me. I do appreciate it and will try not to take a ton of your time up with saying the same things over and over again (sometimes I am not too successful at it ). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It’s my pleasure. I’m glad you’re still talking to me after that beating with the 2X4 I unleashed. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You are right. I blew it, but I think it may be recoverable. I need to put some thoughts together and bring this up again. I will try to run this by you guys before I do. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, I definitely think that recovery is possible here. But let’s create a good PLAN so you have some strategies in place to handle her resistance. I think you should prepare for her to be somewhat resistant to this plan.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This sounds fair to me. I would not just print them out and hand them to her. I feel each M needs to have things tailored to them specifically. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good. I’ll post them after I finish this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I agree with you. Where I took exception was when her POV can be proven to not follow reality. Having said this, my POV could be proven to not follow reality either, such as the sign that I misinturpreted. I would venture to guess that as I start validating her POVs more, her POV may start to realign with reality a bit more. The same with me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Weeelll.. maybe. Something you said further down sparked my interest when you said it and I think it relates to this. You said: ” In the past I believe our POVs did not really differ as much as they do now. I would be willing to suspect that once I (hopefully) figure out how to do all this, our POVs could become more similar.”

It’s kind of a yes and more of a no. Let me explain. I think it’s very common that in the early days of a relationship, POV’s appear mesh more tightly. With the passing of years, the arrival of children (or not), and as you simply get to know each other better after the chemical soup of the initial “in love” stage that all couples go through wear off, you begin to really explore and notice the differences. I think it is very wise to accept this as a natural progression of a close, loving relationship. Many times, one of the exciting things about a “new relationship” is the soul-mate like connection. Lasting love, brings with it a deep appreciation of the differences within us all and the opportunity to explore the depths of another perspective.

Instead of necessarily aligning your POV’s, you learn that it’s OK and that it doesn’t have to affect your ability to plan, live, problem solve, and love together. You are in love with another human being who is privy to an entire hidden universe of perspective that you are being invited to explore. I’ll tell you one of my own personal truths: Being able to explore my H’s POV and share my POV with him in that unique way is my definition of what true intimacy means. I name it as a personal truth because, while it’s vitally important to me (so we do it), it does not necessarily encompass his definition of intimacy. And, that’s all right, too.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes, I can imagine this because I feel we do it to each other. For instance, last night, my W says you are driving on such and such's yard (when I pulled into the drive way. I said, "I am not on the yard." She gets out of the car and walks around it to take a look and finds I am not on their yard. This makes me feel like she does not trust me. I understand we do the same thing to each other. I need to not do this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep. I’m glad you see the parallel.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It is more than this though. She is preparing to react this way in anticipation of what I am going to say or do. I can see it in the way she tenses up, folds her arms, makes facial expressions just before we talk about anything to do with our M. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, I believe you. This is why… <insert another long ramble on the lack of assertiveness of your current MC>. You aren’t dancing this all by yourself. And, YOU are not the person who needs to be giving your wife that information.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Giving the benefit of the doubt here, maybe you are right and this is how she thinks she is talking to me in a loving way. I can tell you it is not how she used to talk to me in a loving way. It is her earlier way of talking lovingly with me that I understood. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe this. But again, then she was relating to you based on her experience at the time. Time has passed, her experience and perspective has shifted and thus so have her actions and words. That’s how bad habits become habits…

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Consider changing it? Of Course I want to change it. Unfortunately, it is not as simple as me going, ok, I want to change this. I do not see when I am doing it. I do not understand how to change it. I just do not get it. I am currently not capable (again, for whatever reason) understanding some of my W's different POVs at the necessary times. I am in trouble here. I feel helpless and stupid. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand you’re frustrated. I really do think recognition is the key. So, tell me a little about patterns in your conversation that make you frustrated. Not so much what she does, but more… uhm.. hrm.. I’m not looking for words or phrases but a general sense of what alerts you to when something has gone wrong. For example, is there some point in the conversation that you realize “Uh oh.. danger here” and, if so, what types of things are you noticing? (tone, body language, your physical reactions – feelings of frustration, fist clenching, jaw tightening, arms crossing… ). What clues do you all ready notice? Most of us have fairly consistent physical or facial expressions (rolling eyes, staring into space, clenching fists or jaw, turning red, silence, crossed arms, physically pulling away) when we’re feeling uncomfortable or starting to get angry. Can you identify and describe yours? Can you identify and describe hers?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I guess I am just having trouble accepting these particular facts as her reality because it makes me look worse than I really am. Now, I am guessing that the next thing you are going to say is, THIS IS HOW SHE SEES ME RIGHT NOW. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, that wasn’t what came to my mind. What came to my mind was that accepting that those are her feelings and accepting that you did those facts are two very different things. This is how she feels about it. That doesn’t mean that’s what you did. Don’t agree with her facts if you feel they are wrong. Agree that she feels or thinks what she says.

If she thinks you are the bad guy, that doesn’t mean that you have to own that and be the bad guy. You can find out WHY she feels you are the bad guy. You can build agreements on elements of a situation. (“We were both pretty angry, weren’t we?” OR “That didn’t go very well, did it?”) You can apologize for very specific points of truth that you do agree with (“Yeah, asking if you were trying to punish me wasn’t a very nice thing to say and I am very sorry I said that.”) Part one is to learn to explore and validate her feelings. One of your major complaints is that your wife won’t talk to you. Well, learning to actively listen and receive her point of view will help that.

Part two is when she is finished and you both agree she is finished, asking if she’s willing to listen to how YOU experienced the encounters. That is the part where you get to express (using feeling words and “I” statements) what happened with you and seek validation because it is important that you feel heard. Part two is going to be a little hard to swing through this message board because it does require some prep work on her part (not that she’s supposed to be doing, but that someone should be doing with her). And just in case you’re wondering, in a perfect world, you two would alternate who goes first and who goes next. (And, in a perfect world, I’d be in Hawaii… )

But all that aside, just doing part one has value. So, you’re still on the hook.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Fair enough. Then I think this should be explained fully to the partner you are practicing this on because their reality or POV could simply be, if you walk out, we are done, not by my choice, but it is the choice of the person walking out. This does not make either POV wrong, but either POV is still valid </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, absolutely. Trust me, by the time I get to this point, I have described in gross detail the length, breadth, width, depth, taste, texture, smell, and color of my displeasure. I am also usually pretty good about communicating expectations.

I’ll give you a better example. A couple of months ago, my H did something that p*ssed me off. Now, he didn’t do it on purpose to irritate me, he just wasn’t thinking. After he looked up and noticed I was clinging to the ceiling by my fingernails, he immediately apologized and promised not to do it again. The problem is that there exists an emotional lag between logical/thoughtful solution finding and emotional reactions. In other words, even though he had apologized and I had accepted his apology I was still pretty mad. So, I thanked him for the apology and assured him that I did accept it. I told him that this was no longer about him and he did not have anything further to do to make the situation right. However, I was still angry. I figured I’d probably BE pretty angry for a couple of days and, while I’d make every effort to be civil, it might be best for both of us if we didn’t try to strain that too much by trying to interact. I just needed space to allow my emotional reaction to dissipate. After I told him this, he nodded then beat feet away from me.

A few weeks later, I asked him what he thought about what I had said. He said he was grateful for me telling him that and that it was better than walking around for 3 days feeling unforgiven. He could understand that I needed to be left alone and that was fine with him. So, in the end it all worked out just fine.

I’d also like to say that he doesn’t understand how my emotional reaction can lag so far behind the problem “solution” (he’ll never do THAT again, so the problem is solved, right?). Well, let me rephrase that. He understands THAT my emotional reaction can lag that far behind the problem solution but he doesn’t RELATE to that. In his world, once the problem is solved, what’s left to be angry about? In my world, the emotions are still there and be need time to dissipate or need to be dealt with – preferably in a constructive way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I apologize up front if you take this wrong, but... You get out of the car because your H is not driving safe. Then you get back in the car after "making him" drive recklessly to get to you. This does not appear to make sense to me. Sorry if I missed something here. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Heh. Well, no, it doesn’t. First, let me say this is one of the few times that I didn’t explicitly state my expectations first – but that’s because I was almost hysterical with rage and fear at that time (he really was scaring me with his aggressive driving behavior). Also, he wasn’t caught all that unawares – those storm clouds had been brewing and he knew why I was upset. I do think he grossly misjudged the scale, though. I don’t think he had any idea just HOW upset I was… I am almost never too upset to actually form words, that time I was.

I did not ‘make him’ drive recklessly to get to me. He did that because he was angry, himself. The first thing he did when he caught up to me was order me into the car… along around that point, he looked at my face and noticed no words were coming out of my mouth and realized just how absolutely over the edge I was (he knows as long as I’m talking, things are ok.. when I stop, things are very bad). It’s fair to say that he was pretty p*ssed but I was absolutely nuclear. Please understand, I had no intention of getting in that car. My unstated intention in walking in a reverse direction from traffic was to indicate to him that he’d better leave me alone. As for how I’d get home, it wasn’t his problem; I’d find a way. They have cabs and I have credit cards.

Anyway, I used that example for a couple of reasons. One, he thought I was being completely irrational, irresponsible, and just plain wrong about my assessment of the actual “danger” involved. To this day, if you ask him, he’ll tell you that I was over reacting. (Starting to sound familiar?) He not only couldn’t see just HOW angry I was, he couldn’t see what I had to be angry about. Now, I’m actually not given to spontaneously getting out of cars in heavy traffic but at the time, I was really, truly that angry whether or not he thought I should be, you’d think I should be, a person picked at random would think I should be. I wasn’t being manipulative or trying to “test” him to see if he’d come after me. I was leaving so that I could CALM DOWN – it’s not healthy for me be that upset.

The other reason is to say that we still don’t agree on the objective truth about his driving. Yet, we managed to COME TO an agreement about how both of us should act and it’s been working quite well for a number of years. So, here you have wildly varying points of view and scales of emotion and yet, solutions are still possible

As to whether or not I feel I was justified for getting out of the car in the first place, my answer is yes. In that moment, it was all I really could do. I was not in an emotional place for a calm or rational discussion or any discussion at all. And, yes, there are lots of reasons why that touched such a deep nerve in me and I don’t think most people (or maybe anyone else) would have reacted the same way. That said, I have enough emotional distance now to say that he probably didn’t deserve what I did. I’m not asserting it was fair to him, at all. I am asserting that I did the best that I could at the time and in that situation and sometimes that has to be enough – people have limits no one has endless endurance. I really don’t know what he thinks about it…if I had to make an educated guess, I’d say he thinks I wasn’t justified but he understands how truly, deeply angry I was (right, wrong, or indifferent) and that mitigates it for him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> God, I wish this was as easy as realizing my issue and deciding to stop it. I do not know how to actively stop my mind from processing and preprocessing what my W says. Maybe this is what I need to be bringing up in MC. Maybe you will be saying "Duh!" now. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Focus on a goal. Maybe it would help you focus on building agreement if you make note cards or something. What do you do normally when you have something you want to remind yourself about?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> However, this causes my W to actually feel like MC is not really accomplishing much for us. I feel this way as well sometimes. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think your wife has a point. I’m really not sure what to do about it. An obvious answer would be to switch but you have good reasons for not wanting to do that. This is a tough one. If it were me, I’d probably approach it head on and try to describe what I’m after but then by the time you do that you almost have to have reached the solution yourself since what you’re looking for is a good referee to tell YOU when to stop. Argh. This one is a real brain twister.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thanks. It means a lot to me that you said that </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You’re welcome.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This was totally cool! I wish the MC would say these things. I can see how this would be helpful and allow forward progress. This is making me question our MC even more in my mind, but like I said, I am scared of the alternatives (never getting my W back into MC and not finding and MC that works for us). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’m glad that helped. I really wanted to give you a good picture of what I meant by assertively challenging BOTH of you on your patterns. As much as we all preach “you’re the one that’s here” I do acknowledge that you’re not doing this by yourself. An assertive couple’s counselor or coach would really help you guys out. I know what you mean about the MC though. Gosh, I wish I had some ideas about that. What was she like when you went to individual counseling or when you were seeing her alone?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thanks Myschae, what you have said in these last two posts do make a lot of sense, as well as scare me sometimes because I doubt in my own ability to effectively change. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’m glad it makes some sense. I’ll be even gladder if we can work out some way to make it EFFECTIVE for you.

So, a recap of your homework assignments:

- figure out what clues you all ready have in conversations that alert you that things aren’t going badly. Focus on the earliest signs.
- Think about what things you do to remind yourself to focus on something in your normal everyday life. Do you keep notes, put a rubber band on your wrist, keep a planner, write on your palm (don’t laugh, I had a friend who did this), use note cards… <etc>?
- Read through the discussion rules I’m about to post and let me know what your thoughts are..

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> you feeling that I was trying to further build resentment towards my W and Myschae skipping this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, ok, fine. Here is what I think. I think you need to figure out what your boundaries truly are. I don’t mean what your fears (which you all ready seem to face well enough) tell you they should be, but what your rational mind tells you is reasonable. Uhm. LFC and I will be your rational mind <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

Seriously, somewhere between complete cloistering and inappropriate alone time with other men, there should be a line that you can draw. I think that part of the problem is your rational mind sets the line over HERE and your emotional triggers keep wanting to move the line over THERE. I think your rational mind is telling you that things are fine while your emotional triggers are screaming bloody murder. You DO want to make sure that you don’t talk yourself out of appropriate boundaries. You should keep yourself safe.

So, one more homework assignment (that will teach you to point out something I skipped *playful nudge*) is to give me what your rational mind thinks is an appropriate set of boundaries and what your emotional triggers think is an appropriate set of boundaries and then let’s talk about it.

Whew. Now, where are those rules…

Mys

Rules of Engagement

Environment

It’s important to be in an environment conducive to communication. To that end, pick a time when you are most likely to be alert and able to participate fully. Schedule the time in advance. There should be no distractions. Find a sitter for the children. Turn off the television/radio. Delay the laundry. Start on time and END on time. Schedule follow ups as needed.

Conversation

Agree to work on one topic at a time. Keep the conversation focused on the problem at hand. As much as possible, do not wander into past history. Agree that if any party feels the conversation has gotten off topic, s/he will let the other person know to wrap up his/her point and focus back on the topic at hand.

Agree that personal attacks are off limits. If, at any time, one party is feeling attacked, all that person has to do is say “That was uncalled for…” (or some other safe phrase “Ouch” works also.) What is required is an immediate, naked apology. That means “I’m sorry, I shouldn’t have said that.” No explanation or justification is allowed.

Agree to work towards a solution. That means do not focus the bulk of the conversation on explanation and chronology. Focus on what BEHAVIORS you want to see. That means practice ASKING for what you want.

Agree to take a time out if either party is becoming too upset to continue. Either party can request a short (5 minute) time out if s/he feels upset. Either party can request a short (5 minute) time out if s/he feels the other party is too upset.

Agree to respond to verbal requests about the conversation. For example, if the other party says “please lower your voice.” or, “please stop cursing” or, even “please find some other way to refer to <subject> because that word or phrase is loaded to me.” (To clarify the last one, sometimes there are things that your spouse says so often that they just begin to irritate you. My H used to say “It’s unnecessary.” This felt like a judgment to me. That he didn’t mean it as one didn’t help. For the sake of a calm conversation, he’s learned to use a different phrase instead of that old habit.)

Agree to give each other equal time. Find some way to accomplish that.

Commit to the conversation.

Agree not to engage in vengeful behavior and not to assume that your spouse is engaging in that behavior. That means that there is no revenge, retaliation, no grandstanding, and no disrespectful judgments. Listen to what your spouse is saying and accept that as his/her own personal truth of the moment. Agree that you both experience life differently. If you hear something that hurts you, take a time out until you achieve emotional stability. Understand that there may be some painful revelations your spouse needs to make and that they are NOT designed to injure you. Also, if you have painful revelations to make, you agree to make them as safe as possible for your spouse to hear.

Agreements

Agree that any agreements you make are on a temporary basis until they are tried and found to work to the satisfaction of both parties. Set aside a ‘target’ period in which both parties agree to a 100% commitment to try the agreement. I recommend that you keep these long enough to work for evaluation but short enough to be conducive to the commitment. I recommend somewhere between 2-6 weeks. During that time (if practical), set up periodic follow ups to see if the agreement is being kept.

If at the end of any trial period, either spouse is not happy with the plan, agree that the plan ends and commit to re-negotiation. The satisfied spouse agrees to not badger, quiz, or complain about the end of the plan. The unsatisfied spouse may or may not choose to explain why s/he is unhappy (requiring an explanation might be experienced as pressure to continue). As long as a commitment to re-negotiate exists, let the old plan die.

Explore what should happen if the plan is not followed by either party. What is a reasonable way to remind the other spouse or to react to that situation? Are there any boundaries involved? If you have to approach your spouse about him/her not following through, how would your spouse like to be approached? (I like to get a “key phrase” that my H won’t consider attacking but that gets the message across. Agreeing in advance saves a lot of argument later.)

Agree to ONLY focus on those areas primarily during that time period. Any other existing areas of conflict may be brought up briefly, but do not allow yourselves to get distracted with too much at once.

Mys

Thanks Mys,

I read through what you wrote and need to think about them. I will respond tomorrow morning.

Take care,

EL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am sorry you went through this. Actually writing on calendars when he felt you "made a mistake" is over the top. I also agree there is not much difference between whether it is 5:30 or 5:45, until the difference in timing makes the other look much worse than they were. Then I feel this is actually reasonable to expect someone to understand the difference. I feel it is only fair. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It sounds over the top, but it is a running joke for us now, and it in no way makes me feel bad. I can agree with you about the timing if it makes one look worse, however, is it really a hill to die on? Is the difference in view of timing something that means more than a happy relationship? It seems to me to be one of those small things to just let go of and work on the big things first. I can understand her also being shocked to wake up and find she had so little time to get ready for dinner, etc. She was not paying attention to what time it really was, she was panicing about not having time to get ready, not being hungry, and still holding onto the hurts from earlier in the afternoon.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand what you are saying here. Did this cause you to loose emotional trust in your H. Did it cause you to loose SF desire? What caused you to start stopping him instead of continuing on towards withdrawl? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MBFW - Absolutely it caused me to loose emotional trust!!! It has only been in the past year I have really started working on myself to be able to open up to him on a really emotional level because of it, as well as FOO issues. I can't say that it caused me to lose interest in SF, I was the higher libido person, however, my views in general of SF have changed over the past two years and I do find that if I let resentment creep in then I lose all interest in SF, beyond that I have little interest unless my needs are being met.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Can you ask her if she feels that you try to dictate her feelings, and tell her that her feelings are wrong? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, I do not think I really need to ask. My W has said to me that she feels anything she does is not right, and is not good enough. She has also said to me (during frustrating discussions), "Tell me what I am supposed to say," or "tell me what you want me to do." These things are said sarcastically. So, I think it is along similar lines to what you have brought up.

MBFW - Yep, sounds like you don't need to ask her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have asked her to help identify when she feels this way. The MC also asked her to help me out. She has tried a couple of times, but is not consistent with this yet. I do not know how to help her be consistent with this when I do not see that I am doing these things, when I do them. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MBFW - All changes take time. The communication didn't break down in a short period of time, it won't be fixed in a short period of time. You might even find that once you think it is fixed you have fallen back into old habits and need to start again. Continue to encourage her to help you identify these times, and that it does not upset you when she stops you and points it out, that it is productive and appreciated. That will also build her confidence in being able to be open and honest with you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I can allow this and want to allow this. I am so nervous about any of my behavior for fear of doing something wrong or making her feel a certain way. I am completely on egg shells in a room with no light. This is how I feel, not knowing which way to step and unable to see a path to get me out of this room.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MBFW - You are responsible for your actions and reactions, your wife is responsible for hers. You can't control how she will react, nor should you try to. You can control how you say things, and should. Slow down the pace, think things through before talking, work towards more active listening to help you get a better grasp on what she is saying. You by no means should have to walk on egg shells, you should work towards a new way of cummincation between the two of you.

Don't be scared of her, or for her, be honest and open and loving. If you are unsure how something willcome across to her, let her know that you are unsure of how to word what you want to say and that you mean no offense. I really appreciate it when H approaches things that way.

As far as trust goes, that gets better as the intimacy gets better, and intimacy is not something that is created or expressed in just the bedroom, it comes through good communication and fulfilling of needs.

http://www.healthyplace.com/communities/abuse/survivors/partners/intimacy_drdoug.htm

This link is for an intimacy quiz, it really helped H and I realize what all is required to build intimacy, it goes along with Harley principles.

<small>[ August 25, 2004, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: MyBestFriend'sWife ]</small>

Hi EL. Just want to pop in. I think Mys is currently in fine form (though for all we know - she might be hiding in a dark room or consuming mass quantities of chocolate when she's not posting... ah moving...) so i won't add much.

I think it is a good idea to think about your boundaries about your wife and opposite sex friendships. Both the ones that come from your head and the ones that come from your gut. I, personally, don't think your wife is involved in anything dangerous. It is good to be aware of the dangers of such relationships and to not wear blinders, but I don't think you have anything to be worried about.

Somehting Mys said in her last post really stuck out to me - but I'm too lazy to open a new window and paste it in, so I'm paraphrasing.

She gave examples of how you can build agreement where you can. I have learned this recently (from Mys of course!) and it is a great way of supporting another POV without compromising your views. It involves making empathetic comments like "that sounds frustrating for you" or "that must have been hard". It costs you nothing to say these things, but it gains you a lot. It makes the other (my H in this case) more likely to listen to me, when he feels heard. It allows me to support HIM, even if I don't support his OPINION. Make sense? The best kind of agreeing statement I use, is an "agree to the disagreement" statement. It's great!

Real Life Example (what came to mind):
Out of our HJ/backrub POJA conversation after H didn't follow through...

H thinks that he was too busy that week to give backrub, and thus should be excused form having to.

Rather then disagree with him there - trying to talk through the schedule of the week and pointing out times when he could have that he can then argue back saying that they weren't really good times...

I say: I think we will probably disagree on whether there was time or not. The fact is, though, that it didn't happen. And that's what we need to deal with...

By doing this - I conveniently skip the part where we argue our POV's and jump right to the part where we find a solution. Yay!

Now... what do you do when your spouse tenaciously holds on to the part where you disagree - trying to prove thier POV?

Example: H says: NO really, there was NO time for me to do it...

You can throw in an empathetic statement if you choose, but stick to your agreement to disagree - afterall, you're trying to build agreement...

I say: That must have been very frustrating for you to have a busy week. I think we will continue to disagree as to whether or not it could have happened. But he truth is, it didn't. So let's work on what we are oging to do now...

PLEASE NOTE: the agreement you are trying to build is not based on YOUR POV!! (please repeat that sentence again - it is very important!) I would have not gotten anywhere if I had said:

example: "That must have beenf rustrating for you to be so busy. But the fact is, there were plenty of opportunities for you to do it <insert example A, B, and C>.

This doesn't get you anywhere. You will end up discussing A, B, and C as opposed to how to solve the problem! Totally pointless. H is likely to feel equally strongly that A, B, and C were not good. We will continue to have our own POVs on that.

The only solution is to agree that we each have our own POV, but a solution must be worked on. So agree to disagree on what we perceived, but now lets talk about what we will do next time. Or how we can solve the consequences of our disagreement.

ok. Just wanted to highlight that part of MYS' thread so she can say more about htat if you'd like. It is awesome for getting out of the trap of circular conversations. I even printed out a page of Mys examples of that for a conversation with H (For my use - not his <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

*sending friendly vibes towards EL*
hang in there - this is important and good work you're doing

lfc

Just a short thing here:

What really helps us, and I am still learning this great technique with difficult people, is to:

STOP, AND SAY NOTHING.

My husband inadvertantly taught me this when we used to argue. In the heat of an arguement, he would simply say NOTHING for a while and I would go on and on but soon I simply "had to stop" arguing. It is like a "kind" stop sign except much easier on the ego since he did not frown or give bad angry looks or anything while he SAID NOTHING.

It freaked me out at first. But then I realized that it would give him and me a "pause" so that we could think. And cool down a bit.

I have since used it with tenants or applicants I have denied that yell at me over the phone. If the conversation gets too hot, I say NOTHING. I am totally silent. They quit yelling after a while.

What might they think when I say nothing?

1. They think I am listening
2. They realize that I am not responding
3. Then, they wonder if I am still there
4. They wonder if I can hear them
5. Often they calm down or apologise
6. They calm down enough to communicate better
7. Sometimes they wonder if I am angry..
8. They may ask nicely, are you angry?

It is very very hard for me to do this. But because of the good results I have learned and nearly mastered this technique.

I found that STOPPING ANY RESPONSE OF MINE to the conversation was the best, least painful way to slow it down and continue on a better note. I am getting better at this as the years go by.

This gives me another good idea. Perhaps you and the wife both need some good communication techniques so you can master "conversations". If ONE of you is a great communicator it can work. But if neither of you can communicate with advanced techniques then maybe one of you possibly needs to take a course in this.

My husband is the good communicator in our marriage and just being around him has taught me some good things.

But I am sure they have "role play communication classes" that you can take and if you learn about 5-10 good communication techniques, then you will be able to converse better with less pain.

There are many ways to communicate and keep the conversation from getting too hot or out of control.

MYS has been trying to be a "one woman trainer" for you but if you had someone other than the wife to role play the techniques, that would be better because then underpressure you would not go back to your old ineffective ways of communicating.

Hello everyone,

First let me start off by saying how thankful I am for all of your support. It really helps me to have the support you are showing. I could never thank you all enough, because I do not really have anyone to talk to about this other than you guys, my W and the MC. We are in a state with no family. I run a business so there is no one I can confide in at work. The time I get at home is so precious that I do not waste it trying to do things without my W. So having you very nice people here giving your time to help me out is truly appreciated, especially knowing you are doing this out of the kindness of your hearts. I am eternally grateful.

I would like to start this post going through the discussions I had brought up about my W and the potential for OM. This is going to show you just how rediculous and skewed my thinking is based upon my past. This example will show you how I need to stop blaming my past and learn more constructive techniques (in my mind) to handle these situations.

This all started about a month ago. There are two guys on the "board" with the same first name. I will reffer to these guys as AB and AC. My W and I went to a meeting for all the home owners, I arrived from work and my W was already there. She was sitting upfront next to one of these guys. When I arrived at the meeting, I took our S (who my W was trying to watch while at the same time participate in the meeting) and went to the back of the room to support my W in her efforts at the meeting. I watched the meeting progress and saw my W and this guy interact throughout the meeting, laughing and whispering to eachother throughout. She was also doing this with a femal neighbor of ours that sat next to them. Her interactions with this guy sent up warnings to me, and now that I look back on it, I believe this is because we do not share whispers and these laughs anymore like we used to. At the end of this meeting, we were leaving and I asked my W who the guy was sitting next to her. She said his name was AC.

Time goes by and my W is having some difficulty with a special website for the homeowners. This site was apparently written by AC. My W has emails back and forth to AC and this is where he actually offers to come over to our home and helo her out, which I do not think ever happened. Again my mind starts to wander and more flags go up.

Throughout the last couple of weeks my W talks about AC at some of the meetings and things he has said or did. This sends more flags up.

Then you all know about recently with her helping out and getting signatures, driving by his home, calling him. Anyway, we go to the meeting last night and it turns out that the very first meeting I mentioned, my W had told me wrong out of confusion and the guy she sat next to was AB not AC. When I got to the meeting I realized this and realized who AC actually was and now do not feel threatened. This just goes to show you how dangerous my past issues and state of mind can be. Because of how I was feeling, I am sure I acted differently and maybe in a subtlely more negative way than I should have. My thoughts and concerns were so off base.

During the last week, we just found out that one of our neighbors, who have four kids, are getting a divorce. Apparently, the W filed for a divorce a month ago, has met another guy who has two kids and lives with friends because he does not have a house. She is apparently getting married to this other guy, leaves love letters around her house and her H and kids see them. She is planning on buildiing a house with this other guy and not taking her kids with her. This all just became known to us this last week, which did not help my state of mind.

So I want everyone here to see and understand just how fragile my mental condition is when it comes to my W and other guys. It is hypersensitive and this is not the fault of my W. This is one of my w's major complaints about my not trusting her. I think this entire episode that I described above, never was even noticed by my W because I am working on this very hard. Baba, I really do appreciate your input, but I hope you can see in my case, you may want to take a softer stance on my W when I bring up any concerns about her and OM. I am ashamed for how my W may feel because of how I have acted over the previous four years because of my issues. By the way, this does not make me a control freak monster, I just happened to not be treated very fairly or honestly by a couple of women in my past. My W has said in the past that she feels like I am holding her accountable for these other women's mistakes. She is write to some extent and I have been trying really hard to work on this because my W is a wonderful woman who does not diserve this.

Last night actually went pretty well and before we fell asleep my W actually thanked me for going to the meeting last night. This made me feel good. I told her this and said I really want to support her on her efforts but I sometimes am concerned about stepping on her toes by going to a meeting once in a while. She said I am not.

Phew, now that I have said all of that, lets respond to all of you nice people.

My friend Myschae,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It’s my pleasure. I’m glad you’re still talking to me after that beating with the 2X4 I unleashed. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I actually think the more direct you are the better. Do not worry, I will let you know when it is too harsh. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Oh, I definitely think that recovery is possible here. But let’s create a good PLAN so you have some strategies in place to handle her resistance. I think you should prepare for her to be somewhat resistant to this plan.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, how about we start off simple? We can easily agree that is someone says "stop" then we will stop. The issue comes in on setting a time to come back to this subject. My W says she feels resolution when she says "stop." I feel I do not feel resolution even if I say "stop." My W also is concerned with feeling pressured into having to come up with a time to rediscuss things. Having thought about this for a while, I do not think I can necessarily define what type of resolutions I am looking for. I think for me it is more of a matter of when I find we have falling off a cliff, I did not see it coming usually and I find myself reacting in a defensive way towards my W which is not healthy. Then, after I never stop trying to climb back up this cliff (to try and make things better), my W ends up getting so upset because we seem to go in circles. When she decides enough is enough, I do not feel resolved because I am still at the bottom of the cliff and did not understand how I even got close enough to the edge to have fallen off. Therefore, if we stopped and came back to the discussion later, I would not be as defensive and would be more capable of understanding what happened. I think that if we tried this a couple of times, my W would quickly learn that we would not get into many huge arguments anymore. I really believe this. So I use the word "resolution" generically for resolution, calming down, getting back on track, making up for hurts caused during the disagreement etc.. Is this enough information to help me phrase what I am trying to get across to her? Do you guys even understand what I am trying to say here?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It’s kind of a yes and more of a no. Let me explain. I think it’s very common that in the early days of a relationship, POV’s appear mesh more tightly. With the passing of years, the arrival of children (or not), and as you simply get to know each other better after the chemical soup of the initial “in love” stage that all couples go through wear off, you begin to really explore and notice the differences. I think it is very wise to accept this as a natural progression of a close, loving relationship. Many times, one of the exciting things about a “new relationship” is the soul-mate like connection. Lasting love, brings with it a deep appreciation of the differences within us all and the opportunity to explore the depths of another perspective. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Although I can see what you are saying and agree that this sounds wonderful. I understood from reading the MB books that Harley's concept is that the initial "chemical soup" that wears off concept is not right and that couples can get back to this stage and maintain it. This is a wonderful ideology and one that I susbscribe to. I am not saying that you do not learn to love someone deeper, but it is saying that you can once again find that head over heels crazy kind of breathless love again with your partner and if you are careful, keep it forever. I hope I am not hoping too much for something you think is not achievable.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Instead of necessarily aligning your POV’s, you learn that it’s OK and that it doesn’t have to affect your ability to plan, live, problem solve, and love together. You are in love with another human being who is privy to an entire hidden universe of perspective that you are being invited to explore. I’ll tell you one of my own personal truths: Being able to explore my H’s POV and share my POV with him in that unique way is my definition of what true intimacy means. I name it as a personal truth because, while it’s vitally important to me (so we do it), it does not necessarily encompass his definition of intimacy. And, that’s all right, too.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see. Thanks for sharing one of your important parts of intimacy. I can see how this could be part of every person's part of intimacy, whether or not they label it differently or not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yeah, I believe you. This is why… <insert another long ramble on the lack of assertiveness of your current MC>. You aren’t dancing this all by yourself. And, YOU are not the person who needs to be giving your wife that information. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, do I call the MC and have a discussion with her over the phone about being more assertive?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I believe this. But again, then she was relating to you based on her experience at the time. Time has passed, her experience and perspective has shifted and thus so have her actions and words. That’s how bad habits become habits…
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thats fair, but I would think since somtimes we are so drastically different from how we used to be, I would think she would be able to see this and miss how we used to be. Maybe she does and she has not told me this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I understand you’re frustrated. I really do think recognition is the key. So, tell me a little about patterns in your conversation that make you frustrated. Not so much what she does, but more… uhm.. hrm.. I’m not looking for words or phrases but a general sense of what alerts you to when something has gone wrong. For example, is there some point in the conversation that you realize “Uh oh.. danger here” and, if so, what types of things are you noticing? (tone, body language, your physical reactions – feelings of frustration, fist clenching, jaw tightening, arms crossing… ). What clues do you all ready notice? Most of us have fairly consistent physical or facial expressions (rolling eyes, staring into space, clenching fists or jaw, turning red, silence, crossed arms, physically pulling away) when we’re feeling uncomfortable or starting to get angry. Can you identify and describe yours? Can you identify and describe hers?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, part of the problem is that I am dealing with hostility right away when I ask if we can discuss something that has anything to do with us. The other times, when the conversation does not start off with a discussion exactly about our M, I will notice through physical signs that she is closed off to and defensive of the discussion through somtimes - rolling her eye, folding her arms, disgusted facial expressions, turning away from me, and talking louder, and looking away from me. these kinds of things. She ramps up pretty quickly these days so by the time she gets to this stage, we are potentially at the point of no return. Sometimes I can bring things back to the top of the cliff, but not most of the times. For me, I do not get angry until she has gotten angry (usually). This is because I really do try to approach every conversation with kid gloves initially because I am gun shy. A few times I am angered by things which usually begin the conversation, but I do not think this is what you were looking for. If I get way too angry during a conversation, something in me (a saftey valve kind of thing) keeps me from completely loosing it. I will start to shutdown if I determine there is no point in continuing, but this is usually after my W has probably gotten to a point of no return.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If she thinks you are the bad guy, that doesn’t mean that you have to own that and be the bad guy. You can find out WHY she feels you are the bad guy. You can build agreements on elements of a situation. (“We were both pretty angry, weren’t we?” OR “That didn’t go very well, did it?”) You can apologize for very specific points of truth that you do agree with (“Yeah, asking if you were trying to punish me wasn’t a very nice thing to say and I am very sorry I said that.”) Part one is to learn to explore and validate her feelings. One of your major complaints is that your wife won’t talk to you. Well, learning to actively listen and receive her point of view will help that. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand. I am working on validating what she feels. I try to catch myself when I realize I am discounting what she is telling me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Part two is when she is finished and you both agree she is finished, asking if she’s willing to listen to how YOU experienced the encounters. That is the part where you get to express (using feeling words and “I” statements) what happened with you and seek validation because it is important that you feel heard. Part two is going to be a little hard to swing through this message board because it does require some prep work on her part (not that she’s supposed to be doing, but that someone should be doing with her). And just in case you’re wondering, in a perfect world, you two would alternate who goes first and who goes next. (And, in a perfect world, I’d be in Hawaii… )
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see. I will try this. Hopefully, I can adopt this as a habit through time. Hawaii eh?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But all that aside, just doing part one has value. So, you’re still on the hook.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Feeling the hook on the back of my collar.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A few weeks later, I asked him what he thought about what I had said. He said he was grateful for me telling him that and that it was better than walking around for 3 days feeling unforgiven. He could understand that I needed to be left alone and that was fine with him. So, in the end it all worked out just fine.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is great that you explained this too him when you needed to have alone time. My W does not tend to explain this and just walks away, which angers me. What I meant with my statement is that it could be someone's POV, that if a person tries to walk out, pack, fly home etc., then the person who has been walked out on in such a manner could be done (as in finished with the M). So if this is a person's boundary, is it not fair that the person who is likely to walk out should comprehend this boundary and find a better, more sensible way to handle things, like take a walk around the resort or something?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I’d also like to say that he doesn’t understand how my emotional reaction can lag so far behind the problem “solution” (he’ll never do THAT again, so the problem is solved, right?). Well, let me rephrase that. He understands THAT my emotional reaction can lag that far behind the problem solution but he doesn’t RELATE to that. In his world, once the problem is solved, what’s left to be angry about? In my world, the emotions are still there and be need time to dissipate or need to be dealt with – preferably in a constructive way.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see what you are saying.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The other reason is to say that we still don’t agree on the objective truth about his driving. Yet, we managed to COME TO an agreement about how both of us should act and it’s been working quite well for a number of years. So, here you have wildly varying points of view and scales of emotion and yet, solutions are still possible
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good. Nice to see solutions are reachable.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Focus on a goal. Maybe it would help you focus on building agreement if you make note cards or something. What do you do normally when you have something you want to remind yourself about? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess I could write things down.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think your wife has a point. I’m really not sure what to do about it. An obvious answer would be to switch but you have good reasons for not wanting to do that. This is a tough one. If it were me, I’d probably approach it head on and try to describe what I’m after but then by the time you do that you almost have to have reached the solution yourself since what you’re looking for is a good referee to tell YOU when to stop. Argh. This one is a real brain twister.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I need some really clever solution here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I’m glad that helped. I really wanted to give you a good picture of what I meant by assertively challenging BOTH of you on your patterns. As much as we all preach “you’re the one that’s here” I do acknowledge that you’re not doing this by yourself. An assertive couple’s counselor or coach would really help you guys out. I know what you mean about the MC though. Gosh, I wish I had some ideas about that. What was she like when you went to individual counseling or when you were seeing her alone?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I thought she coached more. She did not have a problem telling me things like, I have to realize that my not trusting my W in certain situations is MY PROBLEM and NOT MY W's PROBLEM. I had high hopes for this C. I did go into a lengthy description about the past two Cs we had went to and how my W would not be favorable to MC because of these experiences. I also explained how my W said, she did not want to go to MC, argue in front of the MC for an hour and then pay the MC for this. The MC knew all of this and yet, I find we are in this situation more than I feel we should be. I do not know if there is some kind of strategy behind the MC's way of having us do this or not. I do not know if the MC is beating up on me more because she is trying to bring my W in easier. I do not know. Maybe a phone call to the MC is in order here. I would welcome some ideas, because if things to not start improving in the MC session catagory, I do not see my W going much more. I know she would be happier if we stopped going all together.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, one more homework assignment (that will teach you to point out something I skipped *playful nudge*) is to give me what your rational mind thinks is an appropriate set of boundaries and what your emotional triggers think is an appropriate set of boundaries and then let’s talk about it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Phew, this is a tough assignment teach!

My rational mind's appropriate set of boundaries: 1) My W only is intimate with me. 2) My W only desires me physically, mentally, passionately. 3) My W only flirts with me. 4) My W is caring in the messages she send to me about her loyalties and devotion to me and our M.

My emotional triggers: 1) My W looks at another man endearingly. 2) My W spends time with another man (doing appropriate things). 3) My W emails other men (even innocently). 4) My W signs "Love" on an email to old guy friends. 5) My W goes out on a girls night and seems to have a much better time than when we go out together and does not seem to be her usual tired self and want to end the evening early.

These are what I have for now. I am sure I will think of more.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Environment

It’s important to be in an environment conducive to communication. To that end, pick a time when you are most likely to be alert and able to participate fully. Schedule the time in advance. There should be no distractions. Find a sitter for the children. Turn off the television/radio. Delay the laundry. Start on time and END on time. Schedule follow ups as needed.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with this entirely. I know my W would not agree with this at this time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Agree to work on one topic at a time. Keep the conversation focused on the problem at hand. As much as possible, do not wander into past history. Agree that if any party feels the conversation has gotten off topic, s/he will let the other person know to wrap up his/her point and focus back on the topic at hand. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I definitely agree with this as I am the more "topic oriented" of the two. My W tends to jump all over the place. I think she may resist here or feel offended if I try to tell her she is off topic because she will thing I am saying, YOU ARE WRONG.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Agree that personal attacks are off limits. If, at any time, one party is feeling attacked, all that person has to do is say “That was uncalled for…” (or some other safe phrase “Ouch” works also.) What is required is an immediate, naked apology. That means “I’m sorry, I shouldn’t have said that.” No explanation or justification is allowed. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I like this and do not think there would be much trouble getting this agreed.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Agree to work towards a solution. That means do not focus the bulk of the conversation on explanation and chronology. Focus on what BEHAVIORS you want to see. That means practice ASKING for what you want. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds good. I need to discuss this a little more to understand how to ask in a positive way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Agree to take a time out if either party is becoming too upset to continue. Either party can request a short (5 minute) time out if s/he feels upset. Either party can request a short (5 minute) time out if s/he feels the other party is too upset.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We have reached this agreement already, although at this point I feel it is open ended where she can say stop and thinks we do not have to discuss it in the future. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Agree to respond to verbal requests about the conversation. For example, if the other party says “please lower your voice.” or, “please stop cursing” or, even “please find some other way to refer to <subject> because that word or phrase is loaded to me.” (To clarify the last one, sometimes there are things that your spouse says so often that they just begin to irritate you. My H used to say “It’s unnecessary.” This felt like a judgment to me. That he didn’t mean it as one didn’t help. For the sake of a calm conversation, he’s learned to use a different phrase instead of that old habit.)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can understand this. My W said she does not like me saying "my wife" because it sounds to her like I own her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Agree to give each other equal time. Find some way to accomplish that. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can do this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Commit to the conversation. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would not have a problem with this, but my W does at times.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Agree not to engage in vengeful behavior and not to assume that your spouse is engaging in that behavior. That means that there is no revenge, retaliation, no grandstanding, and no disrespectful judgments. Listen to what your spouse is saying and accept that as his/her own personal truth of the moment. Agree that you both experience life differently. If you hear something that hurts you, take a time out until you achieve emotional stability. Understand that there may be some painful revelations your spouse needs to make and that they are NOT designed to injure you. Also, if you have painful revelations to make, you agree to make them as safe as possible for your spouse to hear. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not have a problem agreeing to this. I think my W may agree to this, but not really understand what is meant by it, maybe she will.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Agree that any agreements you make are on a temporary basis until they are tried and found to work to the satisfaction of both parties. Set aside a ‘target’ period in which both parties agree to a 100% commitment to try the agreement. I recommend that you keep these long enough to work for evaluation but short enough to be conducive to the commitment. I recommend somewhere between 2-6 weeks. During that time (if practical), set up periodic follow ups to see if the agreement is being kept.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is fine.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If at the end of any trial period, either spouse is not happy with the plan, agree that the plan ends and commit to re-negotiation. The satisfied spouse agrees to not badger, quiz, or complain about the end of the plan. The unsatisfied spouse may or may not choose to explain why s/he is unhappy (requiring an explanation might be experienced as pressure to continue). As long as a commitment to re-negotiate exists, let the old plan die.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As long as the commitment to re-negotiate is there is the key to this whole thing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Explore what should happen if the plan is not followed by either party. What is a reasonable way to remind the other spouse or to react to that situation? Are there any boundaries involved? If you have to approach your spouse about him/her not following through, how would your spouse like to be approached? (I like to get a “key phrase” that my H won’t consider attacking but that gets the message across. Agreeing in advance saves a lot of argument later.)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is good. I could follow this. It kind of allows the offended spouse to tell the other without it ever getting into a heated and off track argument.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Agree to ONLY focus on those areas primarily during that time period. Any other existing areas of conflict may be brought up briefly, but do not allow yourselves to get distracted with too much at once. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is fine as well. The only issue is that what some of our issues are, are based upon things or situations that do not happen all the time. Therefore, there is little opportunity to show change or make mistakes.

Mybestfriendswife -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It sounds over the top, but it is a running joke for us now, and it in no way makes me feel bad. I can agree with you about the timing if it makes one look worse, however, is it really a hill to die on? Is the difference in view of timing something that means more than a happy relationship? It seems to me to be one of those small things to just let go of and work on the big things first. I can understand her also being shocked to wake up and find she had so little time to get ready for dinner, etc. She was not paying attention to what time it really was, she was panicing about not having time to get ready, not being hungry, and still holding onto the hurts from earlier in the afternoon.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right. It is not a hill to die on. Focusing on bigger issues is paramount.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> MBFW - Absolutely it caused me to loose emotional trust!!! It has only been in the past year I have really started working on myself to be able to open up to him on a really emotional level because of it, as well as FOO issues. I can't say that it caused me to lose interest in SF, I was the higher libido person, however, my views in general of SF have changed over the past two years and I do find that if I let resentment creep in then I lose all interest in SF, beyond that I have little interest unless my needs are being met.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess I was a little confused by your answer, because you said it did not change your views. Then later you said it did. I am missing what you were trying to get acrossed here. What made you decide to "work on yourself" and not continue withdrawing further from your H? I am just curious about this because I am wondering what it is going to take for my W to decide to stop withdrawing and move forward.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> MBFW - All changes take time. The communication didn't break down in a short period of time, it won't be fixed in a short period of time. You might even find that once you think it is fixed you have fallen back into old habits and need to start again. Continue to encourage her to help you identify these times, and that it does not upset you when she stops you and points it out, that it is productive and appreciated. That will also build her confidence in being able to be open and honest with you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with this advice, but it does need to be a two way street. She needs to understand when I point something out as well.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> MBFW - You are responsible for your actions and reactions, your wife is responsible for hers. You can't control how she will react, nor should you try to. You can control how you say things, and should. Slow down the pace, think things through before talking, work towards more active listening to help you get a better grasp on what she is saying. You by no means should have to walk on egg shells, you should work towards a new way of cummincation between the two of you.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Agreed. I am trying to learn how.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Don't be scared of her, or for her, be honest and open and loving. If you are unsure how something willcome across to her, let her know that you are unsure of how to word what you want to say and that you mean no offense. I really appreciate it when H approaches things that way.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have tried this and have still been held accountable when things come out wrong after saying that I was not sure how to word something. This will take time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As far as trust goes, that gets better as the intimacy gets better, and intimacy is not something that is created or expressed in just the bedroom, it comes through good communication and fulfilling of needs.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What if she is saying that I must trust her before she can be intimate?

LFC -

Hey you. Thanks for posting.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think it is a good idea to think about your boundaries about your wife and opposite sex friendships. Both the ones that come from your head and the ones that come from your gut. I, personally, don't think your wife is involved in anything dangerous. It is good to be aware of the dangers of such relationships and to not wear blinders, but I don't think you have anything to be worried about.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are absolutely right on this and I am thankful you have such a good read on my W. I may have to bounce a couple more situations off of you in the past so you can tell me how nuts I am for thinking what I do. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She gave examples of how you can build agreement where you can. I have learned this recently (from Mys of course!) and it is a great way of supporting another POV without compromising your views. It involves making empathetic comments like "that sounds frustrating for you" or "that must have been hard". It costs you nothing to say these things, but it gains you a lot. It makes the other (my H in this case) more likely to listen to me, when he feels heard. It allows me to support HIM, even if I don't support his OPINION. Make sense? The best kind of agreeing statement I use, is an "agree to the disagreement" statement. It's great!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I have used the agree to disagree as well. Sometimes it has good results.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> PLEASE NOTE: the agreement you are trying to build is not based on YOUR POV!! (please repeat that sentence again - it is very important!) I would have not gotten anywhere if I had said:
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand what you are saying. Thanks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> *sending friendly vibes towards EL*
hang in there - this is important and good work you're doing
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks LFC. One thing I do not understand about your example is why you did not have the backrub be first in the deal. I bet you would have gotten it then.

Babba - Hey, how are you doing?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I found that STOPPING ANY RESPONSE OF MINE to the conversation was the best, least painful way to slow it down and continue on a better note. I am getting better at this as the years go by. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is interesting. I have seen this work before.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> MYS has been trying to be a "one woman trainer" for you but if you had someone other than the wife to role play the techniques, that would be better because then underpressure you would not go back to your old ineffective ways of communicating. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">These are all good ideas and I am thankful to have such nice people offer advice.

Thanks to you all,

EL

Boy, this site is sure having its difficulties today. It took me three tries to get my post to go through. Then it double posted. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

EL

<small>[ August 26, 2004, 04:34 PM: Message edited by: Extremely Lost ]</small>

I heard and I understood and understand. This is why I am not going to say much in the future. About her.

Hi EL,

I'm still lurking on your post. I haven't been posting but rather listening and learning. You've got yourself in some pretty capable hands when it comes to a M coach, make that coaches.

I did want to touch on something. Sorry I don't mean to add to your growing list of homework but I did want to see if I could provide some help on something you are concerned about.

You mentioned your inability to stop yourself when confronted with certain conditions. Example: Your W having (innocent) male friends and how your mind immediately goes to mistrust, insecurities, etc.

That pattern obviously stems from your past and the experiences you went through. You felt victimized and have put in place walls and defense mechanisms to, hopefully, avoid being victimized again. You've got yourself so engrained in protecting yourself you can't see that you're really just hurting yourself and those around you. You can't trust your W even though she's told you there's no one else and she told you she loves you but you don't even truly believe she loves you. And why not, well because your worried. Worried about being hurt again and you have to stay on your toes or it will happen again.

And because you're so defensive about being victimized you can't put yourself in someone else's shoes. It's hard for you to accept your W's perspectives because you're too busy worrying about how this is affecting you. I know that sounds harsh and that's not what your conscience mind is doing but when you get flooded and your subsconsious takes over you fall into your learned behavior (mistrust, defensive, etc.)

Did you go back and think about your statement to myschae about how she 'made' her H drive around to get her? You put yourself in her H's place and you put your W in myschae's place. And your response was geared towards how you were being victimized. Her H was responsible and should be held accountable for his own behavior. No one was making him do U-turns and what not to get back to myschae. And until he seen her tell sign of just how angry she was he couldn't see what she was going through.

I attended a voluntary self-improvement seminar. Actually I attend two in a series of three. And in the first seminar the instructor informed us that there were no victims in this world. Everyone is accountable and responsible for everything that happens to them. There are no accidents. I struggled with this one and still struggle with parts of that statement being all encompassing. I have taken that thought and changed it a bit. I know no good can come from living my life like I've been a victim or will someday be a victim again. I must strive to see where my own behavior and actions lead to the unfortunate incidents in my life. By doing so I take control of where my life is going. I am in control. There's no one pulling my strings.

EL,

I think it may be important for you to seek further IC to help you change your behaviors. You are aware of your behaviors, you continue to communicate to us how your mind thinks. That's good but unfortunately we can't really help you get over them. Start talking with a professional and use their techniques to help you bring those subconscious and damaging behaviors up to the conscience level.

The IC I see calls it connecting your gut(instincts) with your head (conscious controllable thoughts). She uses some techniques (EFT is one of them) that help me bring up issues I never realized bothered me still.

Here's something that was interesting that I learned at the seminar (some may dispute this but I believe the numbers are probably pretty close for most):

95% of our behaviors and actions are controlled by our subconscious.

That means that only 5% of how you behave is controlled by your conscious thinking.

Good counselors bring some of that 95% up to the surface (conscience).

Sorry to ramble on about this, but I did hear your cries for help on how to fix this. MHO is that you get back into IC to work on it.

Take care. I'll be lurking.

Hey guys,

Baba2 - I did not mean to stifle any thoughts you may have regarding my W. After all, I am trying to gain a better perspective through you guys. I just wanted you to understand more about us. I felt, I may not have given you enough information to form proper opinions and offer fair advice. By no means do I wish for you to stop offering your comments. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

MyAlias - Glad to see you are still around. I was wondering what you have been up to. How are things in your M going. I am hoping they have been progressing well and this is why you have not been posting as much.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm still lurking on your post. I haven't been posting but rather listening and learning. You've got yourself in some pretty capable hands when it comes to a M coach, make that coaches.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You can say that again. They are all great!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> That pattern obviously stems from your past and the experiences you went through. You felt victimized and have put in place walls and defense mechanisms to, hopefully, avoid being victimized again. You've got yourself so engrained in protecting yourself you can't see that you're really just hurting yourself and those around you. You can't trust your W even though she's told you there's no one else and she told you she loves you but you don't even truly believe she loves you. And why not, well because your worried. Worried about being hurt again and you have to stay on your toes or it will happen again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have nailed it. I really want to believe she loves me, but inside, something blocks the feeling of fulfillment I would expect from truly being in love. I think it was started by my past mistrust issues, but now, it is perpetuated by our situation and how we react with each other coupled with my past issues.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And because you're so defensive about being victimized you can't put yourself in someone else's shoes. It's hard for you to accept your W's perspectives because you're too busy worrying about how this is affecting you. I know that sounds harsh and that's not what your conscience mind is doing but when you get flooded and your subsconsious takes over you fall into your learned behavior (mistrust, defensive, etc.)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This does not sound harsh to me at all. It is the truth.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Did you go back and think about your statement to myschae about how she 'made' her H drive around to get her? You put yourself in her H's place and you put your W in myschae's place. And your response was geared towards how you were being victimized. Her H was responsible and should be held accountable for his own behavior. No one was making him do U-turns and what not to get back to myschae. And until he seen her tell sign of just how angry she was he couldn't see what she was going through.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I did try to put myself in Mys' H's position and my W in hers when I responded. I wanted to understand what Mys would say to me based upon what I would ask if my W did the same thing. She did and I understand where she was coming from.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I attended a voluntary self-improvement seminar. Actually I attend two in a series of three. And in the first seminar the instructor informed us that there were no victims in this world. Everyone is accountable and responsible for everything that happens to them. There are no accidents. I struggled with this one and still struggle with parts of that statement being all encompassing. I have taken that thought and changed it a bit. I know no good can come from living my life like I've been a victim or will someday be a victim again. I must strive to see where my own behavior and actions lead to the unfortunate incidents in my life. By doing so I take control of where my life is going. I am in control. There's no one pulling my strings.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think this is exactly one of my big issues, although it has a twist. I think I have accepted there are no victims and I understand that I am in control of my own life, which is precisely why I think I over protect myself when it comes to my W and the innocent things she does that (in my mind) turn into conflict and marital violation. So you see, I think I need to actually go the otherway and allow her in more.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think it may be important for you to seek further IC to help you change your behaviors. You are aware of your behaviors, you continue to communicate to us how your mind thinks. That's good but unfortunately we can't really help you get over them. Start talking with a professional and use their techniques to help you bring those subconscious and damaging behaviors up to the conscience level.

The IC I see calls it connecting your gut(instincts) with your head (conscious controllable thoughts). She uses some techniques (EFT is one of them) that help me bring up issues I never realized bothered me still.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is how our MC started. It started off as IC for me on these issues. After 6 sessions or so, the IC said, we will not be able to get through a lot of these issues without your W here. We were just filling in blanks because my W was not there to answer things. Then my W started going and it became MC which is something we also needed.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Sorry to ramble on about this, but I did hear your cries for help on how to fix this. MHO is that you get back into IC to work on it.

Take care. I'll be lurking.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks MyAlias. Don't be shy now.

EL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is how our MC started. It started off as IC for me on these issues. After 6 sessions or so, the IC said, we will not be able to get through a lot of these issues without your W here. We were just filling in blanks because my W was not there to answer things. Then my W started going and it became MC which is something we also needed.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Remember these issues we are talking about are your issues not issues created by your W. Your mistrust of your W is something you need to work on. It isn't necessary for your W to be there to work through them. Yes, you have marital issues and one of those issues is communication, but you yourself have your demons and they are brought on by your own doing. Your thinking is skewed and you shouldn't need your W to help you through it. That almost sounds like you blame her for your insecurities.

Own your behaviors and cast no blame elsewhere. The fact that your W makes you feel insecure is irrelevant. You need to get yourself turned around so her actions don't make you feel that way.

Yes, I agree you need to let your W in more. I certainly wasn't implying you do anything else.

Hi, If you read this, look at it as if you have suffered PTSD by being lied to and cheated on in your first marriage. Perhaps these techniques can help you get past that. If you were healed from that PTSD, everything in your marriage might change. You might see and react to everything differently.

http://149849284.home.icq.com/boundries.html

EL perhaps there is "too much noise" in your marital healing and you need to focus on just ONE issue and master that. Pick the worst problem and work on it until completely mastered and ignore the rest for now. I see you dealing with 100 issues at once and not getting the main need solved which his your PTSD regarding being "walked over and abused" by other women who betrayed you, lied to you, cheated on you and ruined your trust in women.

If you nail this issue down to the ground, so that it no longer causes you any pain and is no longer a problem, I bet that would be the half of it.

Then maybe the other issues will seem like childsplay to get over. And the communication issues that you can learn techniques for will be easier.

Seems like this PTSD you have regarding the cheating gets in the way of everything else. So you could train in perfect communication techniques and still have marital problems on all levels because of the lack of healing at a deep level for what this other woman did to you and your boundaries.

Just an idea...

<small>[ August 27, 2004, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: baba2 ]</small>

If you are ever tempted to think your other wife's adultery did not or should not have had that huge an effect on you, read this:

http://www.malone.edu/1939

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I actually think the more direct you are the better. Do not worry, I will let you know when it is too harsh. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Fair enough.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> OK, how about we start off simple? We can easily agree that is someone says "stop" then we will stop. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good, this is a great starting point.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My W says she feels resolution when she says "stop." I feel I do not feel resolution even if I say "stop." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, this is very important. When your wife says stop, that means she is essentially interested in terminating the discussion. Now, later in your post, you said ” The only issue is that what some of our issues are, are based upon things or situations that do not happen all the time. Therefore, there is little opportunity to show change or make mistakes.”

So, in cases like those, perhaps they don’t need to be discussed further? Once you get to a point where things spiral out of control, perhaps just learning to stop yourselves from having arguments about which way a sign was pointing would be a very valid resolution. Because in the great, grand scheme of life and your marriage, is it important who was right about the sign? Or, is it important to learn to catch yourselves either before you sail off that cliff or as soon as you realize you’ve fallen? I suspect that as you become more proficient at actually stopping these arguments, they will happen less frequently and with much less emotional trauma. Right now, this might seem daunting because of the amount of emotional energy you are spending arguing about which way a sign pointed. If you can catch yourself BEFORE you invest that kind of emotion, is it possible that any actual agreement on the sign becomes largely irrelevant?

I think this comes down to perceived effort. We want to build into this agreement as little perceived effort for both sides as possible. That means, if your wife doesn’t much see the point of rehashing perspective on which way the sign pointed, and if you can learn to short circuit the spiral downward on those kind of minor disagreements, perhaps that is a resolution you can learn to agree with.

If you can offer that in compromise, maybe she’ll then agree to come back and set times to discuss things that DO require a joint decision. My strategy is to separate the wheat from the chaff and get resolution on those things that have outstanding problem solving ONLY. If it’s a matter of different perspectives on mundane matters that you don’t need to carry forward, then letting it go sounds productive so you can focus on those items that truly need your attention. Why stand there arguing about a sign when your whole house is burning down around your ears? (Ok, it’s not that bad, but you get my point, right?)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think for me it is more of a matter of when I find we have falling off a cliff, I did not see it coming usually and I find myself reacting in a defensive way towards my W which is not healthy. Then, after I never stop trying to climb back up this cliff (to try and make things better), my W ends up getting so upset because we seem to go in circles. When she decides enough is enough, I do not feel resolved because I am still at the bottom of the cliff and did not understand how I even got close enough to the edge to have fallen off. Therefore, if we stopped and came back to the discussion later, I would not be as defensive and would be more capable of understanding what happened. I think that if we tried this a couple of times, my W would quickly learn that we would not get into many huge arguments anymore. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This makes sense for things that are pattern oriented. But everyone gets into arguments about things every now and again. Is there a distinction in your mind between “every time we try to do or talk about x, we fight” as opposed to “well there was that sign… in a spot we don’t live that we’ll never see again.. how do we not fight about it anymore…”

Also, too, would a form of resolution happen for you if you never fell off the cliff in the first place? If you could learn to stop before you reached the edge? For example, when the argument about the sign started, if you had stopped and said “Hrm. Well, you might be right, but as long as we’re heading in this direction let’s see if we can find some fun and adventure!” (or trouble.. whichever you like to look for <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) OR “We may be lost, baby, but there is no one in the world I’d rather be lost with than you!” OR “Sign, shmine, what do they know anyway.. *playful wink* “

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So I use the word "resolution" generically for resolution, calming down, getting back on track, making up for hurts caused during the disagreement etc.. Is this enough information to help me phrase what I am trying to get across to her? Do you guys even understand what I am trying to say here? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it is, and I think that it is a good thing to ask for, we’ll talk more about it once I have a sense about just how much resolution you need. Is it everything or are there some things you’re willing and able to exclude? It’s time to get down to the nitty gritty.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Although I can see what you are saying and agree that this sounds wonderful. I understood from reading the MB books that Harley's concept is that the initial "chemical soup" that wears off concept is not right and that couples can get back to this stage and maintain it. This is a wonderful ideology and one that I susbscribe to. I am not saying that you do not learn to love someone deeper, but it is saying that you can once again find that head over heels crazy kind of breathless love again with your partner and if you are careful, keep it forever. I hope I am not hoping too much for something you think is not achievable. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mmm…. I don’t know. I think that the in love feeling I have now is very different than the one I had when we were first together. It’s funny, we’re often asked how long we’ve been married and people are surprised to find out we’ve been together for over 12 years (they think we’re newlyweds because we coo at each other a lot *blush*). So, I definitely know it’s possible to be wildly in love with your partner on an ongoing basis. BUT, it’s still not the same. For one thing, I don’t know about you but when we were first together the love was intoxicating to the point of not being able to get anything done! I constantly worried about what he liked, what to say, whether it would work out, should I wear this, should I tell him that, was it real, etc, etc. Pick up a cheesy teenage romance if you want an in depth description of what it was like. I walked around with butterflies in my tummy all the time. (That could be a gender thing, too. I’ve never been in love as a man so… I don’t know what you guys go through.)

Now, it’s passion without the constant angst. I know I can be me and he’ll still be there. I know it’s real. I know it’s deep. I know it was here last week, it’s here today, and it will be here next week. I deeply enjoy his company; there is no one I’d rather spend time with. I’ve even learned to miss some of his annoying peculiarities (not closing cabinet doors) when he’s not around. I’m not always giddy, but then again, I’m not constantly worried or insecure, either. I still maintain it’s different and it’s not the same because I’m not the same person as I was back then. But, it’s certainly not less (IMHO), in fact, to me it’s more.

But, I’m also willing to agree to disagree here. This is just my experience, your results might vary. And, what I want and like has nothing to do with what you want and like. I suggest you aim for what you think will make you happy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I see. Thanks for sharing one of your important parts of intimacy. I can see how this could be part of every person's part of intimacy, whether or not they label it differently or not. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bah. We all know what you guys think “intimacy” is all about. *wink* *wink* *nudge* *nudge*
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, do I call the MC and have a discussion with her over the phone about being more assertive? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, actually, maybe we’d best get our ducks in a row here and if you do that do it with your wife’s blessing. This doesn’t sound like a good unilateral “I’ve decided” thing to do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thats fair, but I would think since somtimes we are so drastically different from how we used to be, I would think she would be able to see this and miss how we used to be. Maybe she does and she has not told me this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think she sees it. It sounds like it would be hard to not see. As for missing it (in terms of wanting it back) I wouldn’t presume to guess.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, part of the problem is that I am dealing with hostility right away when I ask if we can discuss something that has anything to do with us. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, maybe your approach needs some work? I recognize some patterns that you use (not using “I” messages; assigning intentions to your wife in a declarative sentence) that might immediately set her on the defensive.

For example:

I also felt that both my W and I try to get in the last word in an argument. I realize that this is not a healthy communication skill and am willing to forgo my needing to have the last word if my W would be willing to agree that her last words are kind and caring."


Two things jumped out. One is that your wife didn’t agree with you about getting the last word. And two, is the implication that her words aren’t kind and caring. I understand you were relating how you FEEL but it comes across as a fact/judgment.

In a building agreement approach, you take a more questioning stance.


You: I’ve been thinking. Do you think one of our problems is that we both like to have the last word?

Her: I don’t have to have the last word. I am only responding to you saying something unkind.

You: Oh? So, if I could keep from saying things that are unkind, you think we’d get in fewer circular arguments? (Remember, this was the deal you were going to offer her in reverse…)

Her: *taking a guess here* Yes, I think that would help.

You: Yeah, I can see how that would definitely help. I certainly know that I feel like I have to respond to unkind words, too. I have a hard time letting them go, as well. Maybe we both should try to be kinder to each other. What do you think?

Her: …


So, what do you think.. could it be an approach issue? I think we need to get your foot in the door, you know?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I understand. I am working on validating what she feels. I try to catch myself when I realize I am discounting what she is telling me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is great that you explained this too him when you needed to have alone time. My W does not tend to explain this and just walks away, which angers me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, it is a learned skill to be very up front about what is going on with me. I am very direct by nature, anyway. But, I’ve learned to be very direct about what I think and feel and what he can expect me to be doing in certain situations. I ask for what I want – not in a demanding “go get me this” kind of way but in an informative “I don’t expect you to read my mind” kind of way. I make myself very predictable for him because, frankly, I’m too impatient to be obscure. Why should he have to figure me out? (I don’t have the patience to wait for THAT, I’m too strange.) He says it makes his life less complex – it makes mine a lot nicer, too.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What I meant with my statement is that it could be someone's POV, that if a person tries to walk out, pack, fly home etc., then the person who has been walked out on in such a manner could be done (as in finished with the M). So if this is a person's boundary, is it not fair that the person who is likely to walk out should comprehend this boundary and find a better, more sensible way to handle things, like take a walk around the resort or something? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure. If I knew that was his boundary then I’d have to figure out what I wanted to do. I might just decide that I need to go home, anyway. It largely depends on where I am in the moment. I’m not talking about whimsy right now, I’m talking about being in the middle of a genuine emotional melt down.

Sometimes you do what you have to do to make it right for yourself. I firmly believe in marriage and commitment but there is still only so far I can be pushed before those boundaries come up and I have to protect myself. It doesn’t matter whether or not HE feels those boundaries are justified. When you do the hokey pokey and turn yourself around, what it’s all about is being able to live comfortably with YOURSELF. If you can’t do that, I maintain you’re going to have a hard time being comfortable with anyone else.

Sometimes I wish people were a little more like animals in this sense. Certain animals have things that are universally recognized as signs to back away very carefully. If I was a porcupine, cobra, rattlesnake, or puffer fish, I probably wouldn’t have this problem. A large, expanding hood or loud rattle is a much more detectable sign than “Gee, she’s awfully quiet.. “ I don’t know why I’m that way.. it’s just how I am and when I’m caught up in that swirl of rage it’s not going to change because my logical rational mind essentially has shut down. The best I can do is let him know. And, also, it really does take a lot to get me there.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Good. Nice to see solutions are reachable. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe that a solution is almost always reachable provided the problem is within the locus of control of the couple. Two people can reach agreement on SF, but they probably can’t decide to solve world hunger.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I guess I could write things down. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It might help.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Maybe a phone call to the MC is in order here. I would welcome some ideas, because if things to not start improving in the MC session catagory, I do not see my W going much more. I know she would be happier if we stopped going all together. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I’d rather see you and your W come together on this. If you can agree on what needs to happen things will go much more smoothly anyway. Doing this unilaterally might be perceived (what am I saying “might”.. is very, very likely to be perceived) as a power play on your part. You see the danger here?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My rational mind's appropriate set of boundaries: 1) My W only is intimate with me. 2) My W only desires me physically, mentally, passionately. 3) My W only flirts with me. 4) My W is caring in the messages she send to me about her loyalties and devotion to me and our M. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, 1 and 2 are great. 3 and 4 are fine provided you have a commonly agreed upon definition of “flirt” and “caring in messages”. I think 4 is where your biggest trouble will lie because you’re going to have to be very, very careful about squelching her honesty about things she wants changed in the marriage. For example, would it be uncaring of her to tell you what her boundaries are for staying in the marriage (and thus implying there are circumstances under which she’d leave). Or, possibly circumstances under which she would choose (loyalty) based on her own best interest or the best interest of your son over the needs of the marriage. You see.. there’s a lot of potential for misunderstanding in that one. I don’t think you meant ANY of that, which is why I’m pointing it out. I have this nagging suspicion that what you wrote and what you mean are NOT the same thing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My emotional triggers: 1) My W looks at another man endearingly. 2) My W spends time with another man (doing appropriate things). 3) My W emails other men (even innocently). 4) My W signs "Love" on an email to old guy friends. 5) My W goes out on a girls night and seems to have a much better time than when we go out together and does not seem to be her usual tired self and want to end the evening early. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I think number 4 is an appropriate boundary in marriage unless the man is a family member or a close friend of the family (godfather, like).

Number one and the ‘flirting’ seem somewhat close together or is there a difference? Of course, what you call endearingly, she might consider friendly.

Spending time with or communicating with (appropriately) other men is a real problem, which I’m sure you know. Do you know any couples as friends? That might be a nice way to break the ice and build a comfort level.

The thing about the “Girls night”, though. Man, I tell ya, I can’t get behind that one. Girl’s night is SACRED!!!! When else do we get to talk about all of the goofy things yo..er.. that happen to us?! *innocent smile* *grins* Uhm… hey, My Alias.. wanna comment on that one.

Seriously, women relate to each other differently than they relate to husbands and men. There are just so many things we can talk about easily with each other because we all understand ‘em. It’s a break, a change of pace, and relaxation. It doesn’t mean we don’t love and adore you guys, it’s just that part of our souls need nourishment sometimes.

Ok, I need a break then I’ll come back and comment on the rest.

Mys

Hey guys,

Baba2 - Thanks for the info. I have looked at the addresses you posted and they were interesting. I really appreciate your understanding on this subject.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> EL perhaps there is "too much noise" in your marital healing and you need to focus on just ONE issue and master that. Pick the worst problem and work on it until completely mastered and ignore the rest for now. I see you dealing with 100 issues at once and not getting the main need solved which his your PTSD regarding being "walked over and abused" by other women who betrayed you, lied to you, cheated on you and ruined your trust in women. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are on the right track here. I do seem to try and attack way more things than I can all at once. Others have hinted to this as well. Its just that, so many issues all seem to be intertwined. For example, the SF issue took me the longest time to figure out, yes this is a specific problem, but it is the result of a different problem. Fixing the SF will not necessarily fix the other issue that caused the SF problem in the first place. Trying to get to the root of the problem is a difficult part for me. One of the answers I am getting from you guys is that before, I continue to fix a million issues with my M, I have to fix myself first so that I am truly capable of fixing my M. I understand this now and am working on my own issues, which based on the last situation with my W and this "board," I felt I handled quite well (on the outside). It never became an issue of my W's. This is what I would call personal progress. Sure, my mind still sent me the same thoughts that I used to respond to my W with. This caused my W to feel like I did not trust her. Now, I have (so far) managed to bring this under control to the point that I am only dealing with it internally. I think this is forward progress and will go a long way.

MyAlias -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Remember these issues we are talking about are your issues not issues created by your W. Your mistrust of your W is something you need to work on. It isn't necessary for your W to be there to work through them. Yes, you have marital issues and one of those issues is communication, but you yourself have your demons and they are brought on by your own doing. Your thinking is skewed and you shouldn't need your W to help you through it. That almost sounds like you blame her for your insecurities.

Own your behaviors and cast no blame elsewhere. The fact that your W makes you feel insecure is irrelevant. You need to get yourself turned around so her actions don't make you feel that way.

Yes, I agree you need to let your W in more. I certainly wasn't implying you do anything else.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What you say here is fair and 85% correct. What I mean by this is that there are things that my W does (at times) that would be considered inappropriate by others and should not be wadded up into "my trust issues." A good example here is she used to sign "love" at the end of her emails to an exboyfriend and old guy friends. I totally feel this is inappropriate and should never be. She to this day would argue this. But for the most part, I here ya and I am working on myself everyday.


Myschae -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, in cases like those, perhaps they don’t need to be discussed further? Once you get to a point where things spiral out of control, perhaps just learning to stop yourselves from having arguments about which way a sign was pointing would be a very valid resolution. Because in the great, grand scheme of life and your marriage, is it important who was right about the sign? Or, is it important to learn to catch yourselves either before you sail off that cliff or as soon as you realize you’ve fallen? I suspect that as you become more proficient at actually stopping these arguments, they will happen less frequently and with much less emotional trauma. Right now, this might seem daunting because of the amount of emotional energy you are spending arguing about which way a sign pointed. If you can catch yourself BEFORE you invest that kind of emotion, is it possible that any actual agreement on the sign becomes largely irrelevant?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For sure I agree with this. I guess I am saying something similar when I wrote about when we would come back to an argument after having said stop, I might just validate her opinion that I was wrong or what we started arguing about was silly and leave it at that. But I cannot do this if we coast out of control and both end up getting hurt.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think this comes down to perceived effort. We want to build into this agreement as little perceived effort for both sides as possible. That means, if your wife doesn’t much see the point of rehashing perspective on which way the sign pointed, and if you can learn to short circuit the spiral downward on those kind of minor disagreements, perhaps that is a resolution you can learn to agree with. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It sure is.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you can offer that in compromise, maybe she’ll then agree to come back and set times to discuss things that DO require a joint decision. My strategy is to separate the wheat from the chaff and get resolution on those things that have outstanding problem solving ONLY. If it’s a matter of different perspectives on mundane matters that you don’t need to carry forward, then letting it go sounds productive so you can focus on those items that truly need your attention. Why stand there arguing about a sign when your whole house is burning down around your ears? (Ok, it’s not that bad, but you get my point, right?)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am in complete agreement here. I have an example from last night to share. After I got home, my W and I were talking to a neighbor. This neighbor has a golf cart they bought to drive around the neighborhood. My W say's, "I want to get a golf cart to drive around the neighborhood too." I said, "we can look into a used one for about $400.00." She said, "No. I was thinking of one for around $1,000." I said, "That is crazy because it is a waste of money just to make it a little more convenient to go to the club house, and besides this a car gets you there just as easily." My W said, "I will buy it out of my own money then and paint it pink so you won't want to use it!" This was the end of the conversation. Later I realized that it was not fair of me to have called her idea crazy, especially in front of a neighbor. So I apologized later for doing this. I still disagree with the amount of money she is talking about. The point here is that I realized I was name calling and did not realize it until after the conversation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This makes sense for things that are pattern oriented. But everyone gets into arguments about things every now and again. Is there a distinction in your mind between “every time we try to do or talk about x, we fight” as opposed to “well there was that sign… in a spot we don’t live that we’ll never see again.. how do we not fight about it anymore…”
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course there is a distinction, which is why I was flustered that something so irrelevant (like a sign we will never see again) started so much damage. I think if we were to try the pattern I suggested, where we come back to everything after it was decided to be stopped, my W will quickly see that half the time, when we come back to them, there will be no need to discuss things further. Maybe I am more after her recognition of whether I am finished discussing things or not. I think this may be more relevant because it is almost always her walking away from the subject. This could be it Myschae.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Also, too, would a form of resolution happen for you if you never fell off the cliff in the first place? If you could learn to stop before you reached the edge? For example, when the argument about the sign started, if you had stopped and said “Hrm. Well, you might be right, but as long as we’re heading in this direction let’s see if we can find some fun and adventure!” (or trouble.. whichever you like to look for ) OR “We may be lost, baby, but there is no one in the world I’d rather be lost with than you!” OR “Sign, shmine, what do they know anyway.. *playful wink* “
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of Course. If we never got to where I fell off the cliff, I do not see much need of mine for resolutions. The things you wrote at the end of this, are things I might say to her. However, I also think she (like I was) has a great need to show me that she was right and I was wrong. How do you stop us from having this underlying need. Two MCs ago, the C suggested that when we got into these situations to look at each other and say, "I Win! I Win! I Win! I Win! I Win!" Her point being that this would strike us as so stupid and childish that we would stop. My point about bringing this up is that others have seen BOTH of us in this pattern. I accept that we do this and am willing to change. I do not think my W is as accepting or as willing. What do you suggest?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think it is, and I think that it is a good thing to ask for, we’ll talk more about it once I have a sense about just how much resolution you need. Is it everything or are there some things you’re willing and able to exclude? It’s time to get down to the nitty gritty. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess I am not understanding what you are asking here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Mmm…. I don’t know. I think that the in love feeling I have now is very different than the one I had when we were first together. It’s funny, we’re often asked how long we’ve been married and people are surprised to find out we’ve been together for over 12 years (they think we’re newlyweds because we coo at each other a lot *blush*). So, I definitely know it’s possible to be wildly in love with your partner on an ongoing basis. BUT, it’s still not the same. For one thing, I don’t know about you but when we were first together the love was intoxicating to the point of not being able to get anything done! I constantly worried about what he liked, what to say, whether it would work out, should I wear this, should I tell him that, was it real, etc, etc. Pick up a cheesy teenage romance if you want an in depth description of what it was like. I walked around with butterflies in my tummy all the time. (That could be a gender thing, too. I’ve never been in love as a man so… I don’t know what you guys go through.) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK. I see what distinction you are making and I agree with it. What I mean is that in the beginning, I would see another good looking woman and just have thoughts about my W. Now when I see a good looking woman, I think, wow she is good looking. Do you get the subtle difference? I want to get back to my W being the one on my mind when I see someone else. I want to feel it inside me when I come home and see her after a long day at work. Having my S is great, he loves me unconditionally without any motives attached to it. He is 4 by the way. When I come home and see my S, all the bad things from the day melt away. When I come home and see my W all the bad things remain and get added to. I want to get back to this unconditional love, desire, motivation and happiness with her. I look at her sleeping when I am leaving for work in the morning and she is so beautiful and I just want to crawl back into bed and hold her for the morning. The funny thing is we are not at a point where I can even hold her in the evening. In the beginning of our R we lived in two different states. We spent a lot of time on the phone with eachother. The phone calls were the best ever and we never ran out of things to talk about. Now, give a quick kiss when I get home, maybe a hug and then onto something else. These are the things I want back.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now, it’s passion without the constant angst. I know I can be me and he’ll still be there. I know it’s real. I know it’s deep. I know it was here last week, it’s here today, and it will be here next week. I deeply enjoy his company; there is no one I’d rather spend time with. I’ve even learned to miss some of his annoying peculiarities (not closing cabinet doors) when he’s not around. I’m not always giddy, but then again, I’m not constantly worried or insecure, either. I still maintain it’s different and it’s not the same because I’m not the same person as I was back then. But, it’s certainly not less (IMHO), in fact, to me it’s more.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, this is in line with what I am describing. The kind of thing others can notice and be surprised about how long you have been married. This is it!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Bah. We all know what you guys think “intimacy” is all about. *wink* *wink* *nudge* *nudge*
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know you were joking with this DJ, but I have to say, you would be surprised. I am a romantic person. My W is not really a romantic person. Being able to have deep conversations where we share our most intimate details and thoughs without worry or conern for being judged or put down is part of the defintion of intimacy for a lot of guys.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, actually, maybe we’d best get our ducks in a row here and if you do that do it with your wife’s blessing. This doesn’t sound like a good unilateral “I’ve decided” thing to do. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK. Lets get our ducks in a row.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think she sees it. It sounds like it would be hard to not see. As for missing it (in terms of wanting it back) I wouldn’t presume to guess.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I would hope she wants it back or she would not be here, right? I have said this is what I want back and she has been trying to work on our M, so I would take this as an indication that she would want this back. I would not be able to understand why she would not want this back.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think she sees it. It sounds like it would be hard to not see. As for missing it (in terms of wanting it back) I wouldn’t presume to guess.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, my approach needs some work. Sometimes, when I want to discuss our M and we are not currently in conversation, I will ask her, "Honey, I would like to have a quick discussion on our M and I do not want it to be a long discussion." I say this to first ask if it is ok to have this discussion. I let her know I want it to be a quick discussion so she does not feel it will be too lengthy. I reinforce the concept of the discussion not being too lenghty. She usually answers by rolling her eyes and saying what, while preparing a negative posture. So, you see, it is even before I have said anything accusatory or otherwise and she holds to the concept that a conversation regarding our M is going to be 1) uncomfortable; 2) long; 3) ending with no resolution; 4) pointing out something I feel she has done wrong; 5) my expressing how dissapointed I am etc...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, what do you think.. could it be an approach issue? I think we need to get your foot in the door, you know?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with you. As you know, I am a big fan of your examples. I would like to get my foot in the door.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes, it is a learned skill to be very up front about what is going on with me. I am very direct by nature, anyway. But, I’ve learned to be very direct about what I think and feel and what he can expect me to be doing in certain situations. I ask for what I want – not in a demanding “go get me this” kind of way but in an informative “I don’t expect you to read my mind” kind of way. I make myself very predictable for him because, frankly, I’m too impatient to be obscure. Why should he have to figure me out? (I don’t have the patience to wait for THAT, I’m too strange.) He says it makes his life less complex – it makes mine a lot nicer, too.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wonderful. I need my W to explain herself before she exits or walks away from something. This would go a long way towards me not building up negative resentment towards what I percieve as her just giving up.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Sure. If I knew that was his boundary then I’d have to figure out what I wanted to do. I might just decide that I need to go home, anyway. It largely depends on where I am in the moment. I’m not talking about whimsy right now, I’m talking about being in the middle of a genuine emotional melt down.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As long as boundaries are understood and respected for what they mean. If you would still have went home, you would truly understand what that may mean to someone with a strong boundary against that action. You would have decided it was worth you taking your chances. To me it would not have been worth taking that chance, because I believe that walking away (or flying for this matter) is the worst thing that could be done. To me it is far worse than sticking around and arguing through it. At least sticking around shows commitment and a willingness to improve or solve something. The actual fact of walking away (or throwing away for that matter) is the same as saying to me "I do not hold the value of this relationship above the value of garbage."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Sometimes you do what you have to do to make it right for yourself. I firmly believe in marriage and commitment but there is still only so far I can be pushed before those boundaries come up and I have to protect myself. It doesn’t matter whether or not HE feels those boundaries are justified. When you do the hokey pokey and turn yourself around, what it’s all about is being able to live comfortably with YOURSELF. If you can’t do that, I maintain you’re going to have a hard time being comfortable with anyone else.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree and your final statement works for both POV's.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Sometimes I wish people were a little more like animals in this sense. Certain animals have things that are universally recognized as signs to back away very carefully. If I was a porcupine, cobra, rattlesnake, or puffer fish, I probably wouldn’t have this problem. A large, expanding hood or loud rattle is a much more detectable sign than “Gee, she’s awfully quiet.. “ I don’t know why I’m that way.. it’s just how I am and when I’m caught up in that swirl of rage it’s not going to change because my logical rational mind essentially has shut down. The best I can do is let him know. And, also, it really does take a lot to get me there.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree. I also think that if they were more like animals they would not be overly sensitive to some of the things we humans feel or mentally create. This is why Pavlov's experiment works much easier on dogs than humans. Although it works, it is not as effective.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I believe that a solution is almost always reachable provided the problem is within the locus of control of the couple. Two people can reach agreement on SF, but they probably can’t decide to solve world hunger.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fair enough.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, I’d rather see you and your W come together on this. If you can agree on what needs to happen things will go much more smoothly anyway. Doing this unilaterally might be perceived (what am I saying “might”.. is very, very likely to be perceived) as a power play on your part. You see the danger here?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, but if I am going to try and reach an agreement with my W about the MC (which is a subject she currently does not even like to talk about), and how I would like the MC to be more forceful as a coach to correct both of us (which will put her on the defensive as me indicating she needs to be corrected), I will need your help on how to do this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, 1 and 2 are great. 3 and 4 are fine provided you have a commonly agreed upon definition of “flirt” and “caring in messages”. I think 4 is where your biggest trouble will lie because you’re going to have to be very, very careful about squelching her honesty about things she wants changed in the marriage. For example, would it be uncaring of her to tell you what her boundaries are for staying in the marriage (and thus implying there are circumstances under which she’d leave). Or, possibly circumstances under which she would choose (loyalty) based on her own best interest or the best interest of your son over the needs of the marriage. You see.. there’s a lot of potential for misunderstanding in that one. I don’t think you meant ANY of that, which is why I’m pointing it out. I have this nagging suspicion that what you wrote and what you mean are NOT the same thing.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fair enough.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, I think number 4 is an appropriate boundary in marriage unless the man is a family member or a close friend of the family (godfather, like). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">They are not and she just does not get it. She thinks it is my problem that I have a problem with this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Number one and the ‘flirting’ seem somewhat close together or is there a difference? Of course, what you call endearingly, she might consider friendly. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess it is left somewhat upto my own inturpretation. I mean when I look at my W and see her looking at a man, like she used to look at me in the beginning of our R. She does not even realize she is doing it, but I do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Spending time with or communicating with (appropriately) other men is a real problem, which I’m sure you know. Do you know any couples as friends? That might be a nice way to break the ice and build a comfort level.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of Course. We spend time with other couples, usually at our house or theirs because of kids. I think the problem was that my W's life changed so quickly and so dramatically from working two jobs (one as a bartender) to getting pregnant and moving to a different state that she felt cut off from what she was used to as normal friends. We did not have any family around us in this new state and we only had each other. Although my W is a very independent person, this takes something out of anyone. Now that it has been over four years and she has had time to establish a new life and new friends and is trying to find some selfworth through this "board" I think things are going to get more normal (I know, I hate this word too), for us.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The thing about the “Girls night”, though. Man, I tell ya, I can’t get behind that one. Girl’s night is SACRED!!!! When else do we get to talk about all of the goofy things yo..er.. that happen to us?! *innocent smile* *grins* Uhm… hey, My Alias.. wanna comment on that one.

Seriously, women relate to each other differently than they relate to husbands and men. There are just so many things we can talk about easily with each other because we all understand ‘em. It’s a break, a change of pace, and relaxation. It doesn’t mean we don’t love and adore you guys, it’s just that part of our souls need nourishment sometimes. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now, my W goes out for a girls night only a couple of times a year. I do not have a problem with this because it is not every weekend like some poor Ms here. It is just that my W and other neighbor women have made comments from time to time how they have a better time going out with the girls than their Hs. This may be meant as innocent and not a big deal to them, but to us Hs this is extremely hurtful and is difficult for us to take any other way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ok, I need a break then I’ll come back and comment on the rest.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Talk to ya later. I will not be on the internet until Monday AM after 5:00 PM today.

I just wanted to say that since April this year, when I became aware of my M and how I was part of the problems (my "awakening"), things have gotten slowly better. I have been able to make some changes towards the positive. Our circular agruments have been infrequent. There have been times that my W has said "You have not changed" such as in the last MC session, but there have been just as many if not more times my W has said, "I can see your trying to change." I do think I have "woke up" in time to save my M and get it back on track. I do love my W. I believe this is the normal, but slow improvement rate that people have been trying to tell me about. I am by no means where I want to be with my M, but I can see some forward progress towards the over all goal.

Thanks,

EL