thanks ladies. i too wondered if he knew i knew. but...i can't figure out how. he did go to work - boss picked him up and dropped him off and he was home at the right time, and i had the computer. he'd have to be a LOT more tech savvy than he is to be able to do that remotely. he doesn't have a smartphone, and there's no electricity at his work (beach house in the middle of nowhere - no phone service; he's putting in the electrical). frankly, the only way he *could* have known was if my dd told him i was upset. i cornered her, asked her point blank if she told dad i was upset in the morning, and she swore she hadn't spoken to him, voice or text) all morning. she doesn't know the details, only that i was upset. he did tell me as soon as he got home - no computer use. normally i am a great big pessimist, but i cannot see how he could know - i told no one except you all here. he doesn't even know that i hang out here; i cover it up with imgur, lol. (IB??)

now, could he have gone somewhere else? well, theoretically, he could, of course. anyone can do anything if they put their mind to it. but it's not really plausible. there'd have to be a LOT more going on to make that the case, and i don't think it is that, really, in context of how things have been. there's been no other red flags in behaviour, and nothing on his computer or phone up till now. but i am disappointed in him.

my conditions in EPs was that i would leave. so i'm kinda stuck.

anyhow, the kids & man are putting together our picnic lunch, so i'd better scoot off. thanks for checking in, and enjoy your lovely day off.

From what you'd said in the past (not so techno/computer savvy) I didn't consider he may have known just thought he was being honest after the fact.

How was your picnic? Wasn't it hoottt Christmas Day! I'm enjoying the cool change this evening and relaxing, hope your enjoying Boxing Day. Is DD staying for a few days or returning home?

Yeah, it doesn't seem likely he knew you knew now that you spell it out like that. So, given that....he obviously knew he'd done wrong. SO, it then follows that he should not have asked you if he could do the job next week! He should have known better!

SO, your consequence was that it was over if he crossed those EP boundaries. He did...but then he fessed up. SO...I don't think it looks weak if you don't stick to "over" as the consequence. But, there should be a serious discussion about where his mind was at, what on earth made him think that would be ok...and as I said earlier... I think I'd make it so he needed to do a bit of soul searching over this.

i've thought of nothing for the last 4 days. dd & bf just left to go home. we've got a car drive tomorrow and 2 days at the drags (oh joy), with nothing to do but talk. i know, as a teacher, i have a tendency to lecture, and/or explicate too much, so i'll have to be careful, and careful not to AO. there's been nothing else on the sw since xmas eve (our time).

here's what i've considered:

1. ending it. i cannot see keeping going where i will never feel safe. may as well nip it in the bud. print out our agreement, all my screen shots & keylog, and meet at the lawyer's office & lay out my D terms. he moves out.

2. plan b: i'll move out; this way, i'm not disrupted again when the inevitable D is done. we divest all property/assets through the lawyer's office; i just simply walk away. i've certainly done my bit, and then some.

3. we stay together, but he must make the M a safe place for me. how will this happen? what are the practicalities? i thought i had this done already. (random thoughts: i don't want to D, but sometimes i think he got broken 6 years ago and will never be the same. consequently, i never *will* feel safe.) need to think of serious enough consequence that covers the failure, but encourages the M.

4. plan c. we stay together, the most recent breach is never brought up again, and i continue to be in low-alert panic mode, not committed to making things work, but not leaving either. i either suffer, or we end up in D 2-3 years down the road. either way, a lose-lose proposition.

needless to say, #3 is my preference, but i'm not going to lead this. i am not going to keep pushing the recovery wagon. i have a good job. i am, thanks to MB and the support here, in a good place mentally to be able to leave without the massive heartache the original a and the random detritus since then have caused. it'll suck massive dog's balls, but it *can* be done.

consequences i've considered:

1. no computer whatsoever
2. computer ok for car stuff, ebay and the like, but everything else blocked.
3. cutting his balls off.

ok, i'm only semi-serious on that last one. i think.

thoughts?

consequence 3 would certainly be classified as serious... good to see you still have your sense of humour.

You've considered your options and identified what you really want. The next few days gives you an opportunity to talk with H and see if he is on board and willing to accept consequences.

On a postive he was honest even though it was after the event. He was however aware of how you felt and it is disappointing he had to ask how you felt ...maybe he thought you would be ok if he brought it to your attention.

Whatever you decide you will have lots of support my friend.

I just sent you an email before posting on your thread.

Would certainly help to know where his mindset was during all of this: why he did it...did he think twice about it, etc...

I think an honest assessment of what MB work has been put in lately has to be considered as well. How has UA time been? Have needs been met? It's easy to slack off the "work" after you've been in recovery for awhile, thinking you've reached the goal of a recovered marriage. Once the big threat is over with and you go back to a sense of normality, sometimes it's easy to slip into old habits. Of course, as we all know - with MB you're supposed to have made new habits to replace the old ones. I just know that I catch myself, at times, slipping into an old comfort zone and having to smack myself.

You've got to have a real conversation about this - radical honesty - about where his mind was and why he did this. That's the only way you can make a good decision.

But I agree: HE needs to drive this bus.

No lectures, I say, just a firm stance in what you will and won't accept in your marriage. Tell him how you feel violated and how hurt you are. There's a big difference between a lecture and a reckoning...ya know???? This should not be a conversation where he "knows he's in the doghouse and nodding along to get out" but one of heartfelt seriousness. You need to use "I" statements and tell him exactly how you feel as rationally and calmy as possible.

You're definitely better off ending it than with option #4, but don't use ending it as any kind of threat to get him to fall in line. Don't say it if you don't mean it! That's the most dangerous thing of all to do.

So sorry Letty you had to have your Christmas dampened with drama.

I knew there was crisis when I saw the [bleep] [bleep] and a [bleep] coming from my screen. I thought, now this is unlike Miss Letty!

There seems to be a breakdown in his true understanding of how damaging such errs in judgement can be. Sometimes I think that when we post all the time on this forum, marriage building is front and center on our minds. But for our WS who don't post, once things go back to 'normalish' they start to forget about the devastation and start to disengage from being ultra protective of the M.

Would your WH ever post on here? I never required that of my H, but I have recently started to think about it for this very reason. Not because he has done anything suspicious, but just to prevent him from getting comfortable before we have INGRAINED MB in our beings. I think reading and posting everyday is def ingraining and has done wonders for me, but I think the indoctrination has not fully happened for him.

hi again. we were out of town for a couple of days, at the drag races.

ok, i am taking your advice about it being more of a stumbling block during recovery rather than a deal-breaker. however, i'm experiencing a bit of a problem with myself: i just feel cold, like a numbness, but not exactly numb, but distant, withdrawn, separate.

i spent saturday looking at houses to rent and drawing up my D terms. i was pleased to see that i could rent something in my area on my salary alone.

i do not feel connected to H right now, though he has listened to me, responded about his feelings, etc. i feel like i can walk out at any time and that would be just fine. i guess i've put the emotional distance back in to protect myself - just as i was coming to 100% commitment to the M and to him. now i am at...i dunno, maybe 5%? tops?

i am worried that my LB$ has overdrawn (and so quickly) and that i no longer wish to work on recovery, but am formulating a plan to leave in my mind. it scares me that i'm taking steps to be able to do so. i don't understand how things could have been going so well, and now we are here.

unwritten wrote on MSSs thread: what happens if/when the BS cannot get over it? that's exactly what i've always wondered. i have often wondered if after 2 years i would just say [censored] it. maybe i will never be over it, in which case, going through the recovery motion is just a waste of time, while i get older every day. the funny thing is, though, is that it's not really the original a that's on my mind, but the lying and not making the M a safe place for me/us that has happened over the years.

eh, i'm just rambling now. i've got to get off my duff, go to the gym, then wash the windows. we are going to the fireworks show tonight, if i can stay awake that long. was hoping to go kayaking today, but it's too windy. bah.

Letty, you've taken a huge hit to your love bank with no deposits. It's no wonder you are feeling as you are. It's up to your H to make those deposits to get the account back in the black again. Does he understand this?

What UW said to MSS, etc... It all comes down to this: THE MB principle for recovery is that the marriage MUST be BETTER when all is said and done and if it is not, recovery CANNOT occur. Time and time again when we see where one party is fully vested and trying to carry the load, resentment lingers and love banks are busted. Your H has gone along with the program, but he does not seem to have embraced the mindset - and that's THE most single thing, I feel, to full recovery.

It isn't that ever single thing has to be perfect in recovery; most of us make mistakes. The mistakes that are easily overcome, however, are those that are accidental or just dumb. The harder ones are those that, as you have described, make the FBS feel unsafe: the ones that send the message that the FWS does not understand that he or she must ensure marital protection above, beyond, and before anything else. It's especially true when the wife is the FBS and the H is the FWS because it's a man's primary role to be the protector in the first place. When a man does not do that, he loses some respect of his wife - which leads to a lower account balance, etc...

That's what I'm reading into all you have said in your last post: your H NEEDS to earn your respect back and his balance with you will go up. You cannot be in love with a man you do not respect. It's that simple.

You didn't give a lot of specifics as to your discussion with him over this incident. Are there consequences? Are there specific actions you have given him to build your love bank back up? Have you been Radically Honest with him about where you are right now???

no, sunny, i haven't given a lot of specifics, yet, because it's still ongoing. i haven't yet thought of a suitable consequence, though i came up with one today while in my hellhole, excuse me, bathroom (the place where i have, in the past, spent hours upon hours sobbing). i think maybe our upcoming tax return should go into my account in the usa, so that i can fund a 6-week trip to reno for a quickie divorce should the need arise (screw this nz 2 year bs). that money should remain there for a period of 18 months, unless i decide it can be moved earlier. how does that sound?

have i been radically honest? i have thought about this for several hours now, and i have to say no. i am back on the roller coaster. when i am decisive (and thinking about what i need to do to leave), i feel good, powerful. but when i consider the fact that his behaviour shows a lack of care for me, which = not loving me, i crumple like a used tissue. i cannot see having a reasonable conversation without tears at this point in time. i'm working on it. feeling this way makes me madder than i already am, so i'm not doing my best communication at the mo; consequently, avoiding it. i am, however, working on revised ENs with specific actions.

new day. happy new year everyone!

last night, H opened a discussion on what has been going on. i took your advice, and was radically honest, but in a way that didn't divulge anger or contempt; i kept it simple and to the point. i cannot tell you how proud i am of how i have handled myself over the last week. in the past, i would have been off like a shot, AO-city, and made an even bigger mess of everything!

we ended up having a really good conversation (he actually talked!). i did set the consequence of our tax return going into my own bank account for a period of 18 months, specifically so i could walk out the door, and he was agreeable. thank goodness we actually have to file taxes - a regular person with a wage job doesn't have to here, but we run two businesses from home. we have discussed his thinking process (or lack thereof), and sunny, thanks for that mention of the man as the head of the household/caretaker. while H is an atheist, i was able to appeal to his masculinity, reminding him that as a husband and father, he has a fiduciary responsibility to me that cannot be shirked. i could see a light go on there. H is very literal, so i can't use metaphors or analogies - straight talk is the way to go.

non-sequitor (sp): one thing that has always repulsed me about certain men - you know the ones, that show up on sally jesse or jenny - who claim to be godly, and king of the castle, but then who treat their families like crap, and their wives like slaves, and don't even work! i never could understand how they could reasonably manipulate their beliefs to give them all the cake and none of the responsibility of being head of the household!

back to topic: we then popped the cork on a non-alcoholic champagne and toasted the new year. this morning we have done a couple hours gardening, then we have to get ready for an early start back to the drag races tomorrow. i am just so happy the weather is cooperating, with cloud cover and not-too-warm temps, especially as the news had predicted 29 and full sun (that's not horribly hot [84F], but we're talking 84% humidity according to metservice, which this so-cal high desert girl just can't function in). i wish H was competing this year so i could cheer him on, but his photographs have been excellent. he has a press pass and shoots from the start line. some american fuel nostalgia (i have no idea what that means, but the power of their cars are mind-blowing) drivers are here, so it's pretty exciting, even to someone like me with little interest in such things.

thanks for being there to help me through this, and even more, to help me do it right in a way that will help the M, rather than tear it apart.

So happy for you Letty, that your dip in the roller coaster wasn't down for too long.
friend.

to you too, my friend.

i just realised i didn't answer unwritten's Q. no, i don't think my H will post here. i asked him about it a long time ago, and he was adamant he would not. it's too bad, because the male posters that help the men here would be really helpful for him. he's not a reader, though, and i can't see him getting through the posts. just seeing one of the basic concepts pages would make his head pop off. his typing skills are also atrocious :P

in response to another Q: no, i don't think he really "gets" it, despite the coaching with SH, and his browsing of the MB vids, and our reading of SAA and HNHN. but i'm hoping he will, eventually.

Good job, Letty!

thanks mel. it was a harrowing week, but i can see more clearly now. there is no smooth path, and as we're both human, mistakes will be made. :: a work in progress...

I agree...you did a GREAT job!!! Sorry I've been MIA the last few days. I'm really proud of you for being RH. I know how difficult that can be. It's hard to sort out anger and allowing yourself to be vulnerable...trying to keep it all together, etc...

I would have to say that RH is THE #1 thing that has changed in my marriage since recovery. Once it finally got through to Mr. Sunny and I that honesty was more important than being right or anything else, it was relationship changing. It's important that you do it with good communication skills if possible, but still better to make those mistakes and be RH than to be dishonest, trying to say all the right things. Our "care level" for each other has skyrocketed through learning this.

My H tends to be very literal too - so I completely understand that: sometimes TOO literal! Appealing to his masculinity is definitely the right way to go. And I totally agree about the talk-show type males you mentioned... that is NOT godly by any means! I grew up with a dad who is exactly opposite: still works harder than anyone I know, humble as the day is long, and never raised his voice to me - didn't have to. I have no respect for men like you describe. I doubt many do.

Good for you for setting consequences. As for Mr. Letty "getting it" you just need to keep plugging away at letting him know exactly what you need when you need it. Also, let him know why - it helps. I mean, it's enough for him to know you need it and therefore to want to meet those needs, but I've found if I can make H understand why, it helps him with the whole mindset thing. The deeper you go in understanding each other, the more you care about one other. You start naturally putting yourself in the other's shoes which makes it easier to meet each others needs and avoid lovebusters.

We start out on this MB journey learning to check off lists but ultimately, it's deeper intimacy you're striving towards.

i've been posting so much on other threads that i've quite forgotten about my own!

i hate to say it, but this recent hiccup may be the best thing that's happened recently. it's really helped clarify things, and i'm working at being much more O&H with I statements (I feel xxx because I think...). avoiding totally the "you make me" rubbish that is so easy to turn to. and, surprisingly, i'm getting much more O&H in return than i have ever received. i belief my responses to O&H have helped him become more so (no getting frustrated, trying to educate, etc). i think sometimes i make my own problems! he has been very forthcoming, more and more after i have not gotten angry (nothing to be angry over, though!).

we've had a lovely week since i last posted. went to the orchard and picked our own strawberries. cooked together. discussed our dd and her sitch together. basically, have been working together as a team. so much more pleasant. today i am feeling particularly loved up. we are both looking forward to our south island trip in two weeks time.

omgosh, our mailman just about made me jump out of my skin! he can't see me here on the patio, and he just let out the biggest man-like yawn! lol, i giggled to myself after i realised he wasn't a zombie looking for lunch! (OWRRRAAAHHHHHRRRRR!)

now that my adrenaline is up, i'm off to do some housework and get dinner prepped for later. i've been sitting here for about 3 hours, which has been lovely, but one can't be a patio-potato all day. and i want to look pretty for a photo later

am having a small MB-related crisis: have dropped my favourite bottle of nail polish and shattered it all over the driveway! i think OPI has discontinued this colour

I hate when my faves get discontinued!!
😡

I'm glad your setback has served a purpose, Letty. Like I said, the RH (o&h) has been extremely important in recovery to me. Nothing else deepens the intimacy level like it does. Hate you had to go through such a valley but sounds like it was a needed lesson!

i'm feeling good today sunny, but i know my comment won't sound like it!

when do all the lessons stop being for ME and start working for HIM?

lol. i know. keep plugging! how's your sitch going? are you back at school? i've got 2 more weeks, which doesn't seem long enough with all the work i have to do. i'm currently creating a 5 year writing programme (all 5 years of high school). the nz curriculum doesn't explicitly teach writing, yet to achieve excellence, they need to be able to write well. since it's not a focal point, very little time is devoted to it. i plan to remedy that, at least in my own classes, though the programme will be published to the whole dept.

i'm also teaching quentin tarantino film techniques to my year 13s this year (film, or "visual text" is a big part of the english curriculum). i have to sit down with reservoir dogs and pulp fiction and start capturing the stills and video clips i want to use as teaching points. i am excited that django unchained will be out when school starts, but i'm guessing it'll probably be R18, and i don't know how many of my students will be 18 at the start of the year. probably not many i'm going to try to get the theatre to give me a private showing (they're good at this) if they all have permission slips (it *might* work). ooo, i just checked IMDB, and they've got australia listed at MA+15. however, they are sometimes incorrect. the uk has it at 18. i guess i'll have to wait and see!

yes, this is a far cry from having my students (in the usa) read dangerous liaisons and see the play, but when in rome and all that! last year i taught seasons 1 and 2 of the walking dead. that was a real treat for me usually i let the students pick what to study, but since the year 13 curriculum is new this year, i'm going with what i want to do that i think will interest them too.

ack, i'd better stop running off at the mouth and get my butt in gear if i'm to hit this gym this morning! hope your 2013 is going well thus far!