El --

You're right. We're not talking about the key to a happy successful marriage. But just as you said, she's not in the part of the marriage you are at. So right now, *fair* goes out of the window. Once she is emotionally secure in your love and the marriage, you can start talking to her about your needs.

You might check out my latest response to ACK51 at this thread, as it somewhat relates, I think:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=022157

Later on in the evening, I said, "Honey, I know you said that you did not want me to give you a message, but I was wondering if there was anything else I could possibly do to help your pain?"
I don't think this was a good idea. It's like you are nagging her to death.

Give it a rest. She said she didn't want a massage the first time. Rather than asking her again directly if you can rub her shoulder, you ask it in a different way.

Keep changing up your behavior. It is clear she expects you to be the same way every day and do the same things, say the same things, and respond the same ways.

If you are different, it could be interesting and also help her realize she does not have you fully trained and under her control...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Give it a rest. She said she didn't want a massage the first time. Rather than asking her again directly if you can rub her shoulder, you ask it in a different way. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nah... You can tell by her response, "Yes... you can do X" that she took it as an offer for other stuff, rather than a nag on the back rub.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Extremely Lost:
<strong> I am concerned about doing the 180 because I think she will take it as a sign that I have moved on. Her self defense mod, from her childhood would kick in and she would leave. I spent a year being opposite as far as the SF and asking for it or showing interest. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">EL:

I read a lot of your posts and just let me say I have been where you are and it is not fun. I too came to the web to get help because nothing I did seemed to work. I read a lot of books and I went to a MC by myself because I thought I was the problem. When I talked to my wife she would give excuses for withholding SF and I would go and correct the problems and then there would be another reason. I soon realized it was not going to matter what I did since it was a power struggle and she was going to win at all costs.

I like you lived in fear. I backed down in every argument because they would escalate to the point she would threaten to leave me and take my kids or go on her own. One time she threatened to leave because she said I made things to easy for her and she never got to do things for just her? When I was talking to the MC she shook her head and told me "Do you realize she just blamed you again"? I did not even look at it that way since I thought it was a good thing to make things easier on my wife but yet again it was my fault.

I have been married for 18 years and it has been like this every year I have been married. I once told her when she was being cruel to me that I was never going to leave no matter how she treated me, big mistake on my part! I woke up a couple of years ago and I have tried to change my marriage and be the best H and I realized it just doesn't matter it is a power struggle and she refuses to budge.

I think that Just Learning and Starfish (along with others) have given you some good advise. Starfish gave me some advise by asking if I ever thought about going to plan B and I said no. She told me if nothing has worked I might want to consider it and that was the first time I thought that might be a good idea. I tried everything I could think of with her and nothing worked. I even tried to do a 180 and no it didn't work.

One thing I realized is that it is my fault that I have allowed my wife to treat me like crap. I realized I could no longer live in fear that she would leave if I demanded that she treat me with love and respect. She even told me that she did not want to meet my needs when we were having a discussion and I thought, WOW! I would do anything to try and make her happy yet she said she didn't want to meet my needs. My self-esteem was in the toliet and the rejection was painfull. Yet she told me she did love me but she never showed me with actions that she loved me.

I then realized I would no longer live in fear and I felt used by her. I felt all I was was a paycheck to her and all she cared about was what I provided and would not show me any love. I also realized I deserve to be happy. My wife would threaten me into submission on anything and I got to the point after getting advise from my MC and this web site that I would not take it anymore!

I am telling you my background so I can explain what I did. I grew tired of typing on here expecting my W to treat me with love and respect when she already told me she did not want to meet my needs and she would not go to MC. I went to my W and told her that I went to MC by myself and read all of these books and nothing changes. I told her I could no longer live with any threats since I could not enjoy my life anymore wondering if today was the day she would leave me or threaten to leave me. I told her that since she did not want to meet my needs and seems to want to leave so bad I told her to go!

When I told her I wanted her to go she was stunned. I explained that I have tried for years and since she didn't want to meet my needs for SF and appreciation that I no longer wanted to be a paycheck to her. I explained that since she has every excuse on why she won't meet my needs that I was tired of trying. I was also tired of the threats and since I have tried everything that I know and she always wants to leave go ahead and go. She told me she loves me and I said "You do not treat me like you love me". I then told her to leave for a few days and think about things and she went to her parents house but never told them why she was there. She was gone for 3 days and she called me everyday and I never called her. She told me she wanted to come home and I told her only if she was willing to make some changes otherwise she should stay where she is.

She did come home and for about the last 2 weeks I have a new wife. I know 2 weeks is not very long but I cannot remember in our 18 years her treating me as well as she has since her return. She has told me how sorry she is for treating me like she has and we have been having a ton of SF <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ! She also treats me with respect and appreciation and it has made all the difference in the world. She use to get angry if I expected these things but now she is a new woman. Will it last, I don't know but I feel so much better about myself and our marriage. I do know I have my self-respect back and I know she is as happy as I have seen her in years.

I came to the point that if she didn't want SF with me I didn't want to be with her anymore. I still look young and I think most women would think I was attractive but my W thought she could control me by withholding sex to keep me in line. I will not allow her to treat me like this anymore. I have busted my rear for her and will do almost anything to make her happy. If she is unwilling to do the same I no longer want her here.

I am not sure your wife is going to be able to change unless she has some incentive to change. You may want to consider a Plan B to get her attention. Just like my W she treated me like she did because I allowed it. Nothing was ever her fault and she had me convinced it was all my fault. If you want changes you may have to be willing to go to other methods. I no longer live in fear of my W leaving me. I don't want her here anymore unless she wants to be here and I demand that she treat me with respect. Good luck to you and your wife .

DadandHusband --

I don't know how things were in your case... I read the description you gave, but I'm sure that only touches the iceberg.

But before you start pushing for a Plan B, keep in mind what that entails.

Plan B is an ultimatum saying, "Tow the line, or get out of the marriage."

If the relationship isn't already strained incredibly, this may do nothing more than insult the person and make them *want* to leave the marriage.

Typically, Plan B and a 180 is recommended in a situation where the spouse thinks they might want out of the marriage. So instead of constantly trying to be nice to them, you finally totally switch what you are doing, and say, "Fine. Leave."

It doesn't sound to me like EL is at this point. He is at a point where he is trying to extablish an *emotional* connection with his W, so that they can communicate. "My way or the highway" doesn't build that up. It breaks it down.

Frankly, I think the easy way Plan B's and 180's are thrown around is irresponsible.

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Maybe I scored some points here because I think she expected me to question her or complain because she did not want a message from me. It was a notable difference to how she would react to things I've said in the past. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good job.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You see, last night, right after she rejected the back rub again, I had to fight myself internally to not ask why are you rejecting my offer for a back rub, again? One of the reasons this becomes a struggle is that I think it is fair to be given an answer as to why someone is rejecting you (whatever is being rejected). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is where I fall off the boat. I honestly, truly believe that your wife might be falling off this particular boat, too.

If someone offers me something and I decline politely (No thanks.) then I don’t understand why further explanation is required. “Do you want ice cream? No thanks.” “Do you want a massage? No thanks.” “Do you want me to rub your feet? No thanks.” “Do you want a million dollars? Yes, please.”

Here’s why – if someone starts off a sentence with “Do you want… “ I assume it’s a “state of being” question. In other words, it doesn’t imply anything about the other person. So, if someone asks “Do you want ice cream?” and I say “No thanks” my answer has no bearing on whether or not that person wants ice cream. Nor, does asking the question convey any meaning to me about whether or not the other person WANTS ice cream. If the other person wanted to convey meaning about his/her desires I’d look for more clarification “I want ice cream would you like some, too?” Or, “I’d love to give you a massage, would you like one?”

And, in any case, there is just no way I’d draw a connection between declining a massage and my H feeling rejected. Heck, EL, you’ve explicitly STATED you feel rejected about it and I’m still having a hard time wrapping my fuzzy little mind around the concept. I’ll give you a peek into my internal dialogue:


“What’s it to him? If I don’t feel like a massage, why does that bother him? I can see him being upset if HE wanted a massage and I wasn’t willing or if I wanted a massage and he didn’t feel like giving me one, but why so upset because I don’t want what he thinks I need? Why do I have to justify that? Why does it have to be about rejecting him as a person rather than my own preferences? What am I missing here? What is he really looking for? What is “massage” a secret code for? Is it because if I say “yes” he’s expecting something (admiration, thanks, sex, reciprocation)? If he wants something, can’t he just ask for that instead of making me accept something I don’t want first? Why does EVERYTHING have to be so complicated? Can’t anything ever just be “no thanks” for the sake of “I don’t feel like it right now” without assigning some future trend or ulterior motive? Etc…etc.. etc… “


<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> See, I can do DJ’s too! Seriously, that’s what would be going through my mind.. maybe it will give you an idea of what might (but not necessarily is) going through your W’s mind.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This statement is fair enough and your point is well taken. As my W and I are currently at different stages in this M, her rules for fairness are different to mine. Eventually, these fairness rules should become pretty similar (as they were in the beginning), because we would be looking out for eachother's feelings more. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’ll do you one better. Ideally, instead of necessarily having to adopt each other’s ideas about fairness, you’ll both understand each other’s ideas of fairness and act accordingly. She’ll be able to understand how to treat you – which is different than how she, herself, wants to be treated. The standard isn’t “Treat your spouse how you want to be treated.” The standard is “Treat your spouse how s/he wants to be treated.” Make sense?

Mys

Dad and Husband's post is exactly what I have been trying to say here also. (Not in as good a way and I have not been thru it to that extent)

I believe a vicious circle happens in some marriages and getting out of the circle is not only hard but imperative. It could happen with either spouse but I am using husband and wife to be clearer and relate more to EL situation. You guys can correct or polish my understanding of it.

1. Wife starts getting upset at some things husband does or says and possibly starts withholding sex.

2. Husband tries frantically to see what is wrong, tries and get the affection and sex back and tries to please her. His focus is NOW on HER trying to get that love back that he hurts for.

a) Was he not meeting her needs?
b) Was he not giving her enough attention?

3. The wife feels her husband's focus change to HER. She grows comfortable with all that attention on her and rather tired and bored of it also. SHE does not need to change in any way to keep her H focus on her and thier problems..

4. The wife finds she has a new power in the marriage. She can put her husband off balance with one small word. Or rejecting a backrub. She has 90% of the power now. Since he is still trying to learn what she needs, understand her, please her, and do whatever to get her affection back.

5. She now loses respect for her man since he is such a wuss afraid of her leaving, afraid of her reactions, afraid to displease her. She starts to disrespect him for being such a wuss even though he was doing it to try and please her. She feels the focus of thier marriage is on her. This gets tiring. It is like the husband no longer has his identity and is too needy for the wife to respect him.

6. The wife is now 75% hostile all the time and disrespects her husband for the wuss she feels he is. He feels like he is walking on eggs all the time. And tries even harder to please her which disgusts her even more and destroys any remaining affection or attraction for him on her part.

7. The husband feels her hostility and tries yet harder to figure out what is wrong and right the situation. He has now been without sex for so long his eyes are crossing. He gives up all his hobbies and interests and spends all his time trying to save thier marriage. He trys to talk about marriage issues and drag her to counseling. She becomes more and more irate and bored by him and his constant focus on her. He appears to her to be needy, overly responsive, and afraid of her and fearful she will leave him. A fearful man is under her thumb but she is definitly NOT attracted to a fearful man either. NO WAY will she ever have sex with this fearful wuss.

8. The wife starts looking to other, more exciting men. Men that are not so predictible. Men with hobbies and interests apart from her and different than "saving thier marriage" which has become her husbands new mantra. Men who are NOT afraid of the wife leaving them. Men who are real MEN, not wussy men.

9. Her husband complains she is flirting with other men. But she knows with ONE WORD, or even a mean look, she can shut her husband right down. Because he is now afraid of her. She long ago lost her desire, passion, caring, and even desire to be civil to her husband. She even starts wondering why she married such a wuss. But she does not want to go to work, break up the family, or do what it takes to divorce. So she sighs and puts up with the marriage.

10. Her husband is now hounding her for affection daily which is very irritating for her since she has no affection for him. She would rather have sex with a stranger than this fearful wuss she married who bows daily to her and spends all his time trying to please her. Where has his life gone? His hobbies? His personality? He is BORING!
Other men are more interesting and unafraid.

11. If her husband gets too pushy demanding sex or for her to go to counseling, she knows that with the threat of leaving she can shut him right down where he belongs. As her servent. Bowing to her and fearing her. But really she does not want this. She wants a sexy and exciting and strong and fearless MAN who comes and has a distinctive personlity apart from herself and interests that
are more varied than "trying to work out the marriage problems", "trying to please her", "Trying to figure out why she is angry",


12. She is sick and tired and disgusted about it "being all about her" but yet, she cannot give up that POWER she now has to control her husband with just a mere mean look. She begins to become more disrespectful and mean and it has no effect on him. She has beaten him down now.

13. She is wondering why she married such a beaten down wuss of a man. (She does not see her part in withholding sex and beating him down) She is bored by him and even gifts, trips, attention, dinners out, etc cannot bring back any respect she used to have for him before she was able to beat him down and keep him fearful of her.

14. He now feels that the marriage problems are all his fault. He is really unhappy and has tried everything. Tried everything but risk her leaving him. Yet that is what he needs to do, risk that she may leave him. If he has any semblance of his manly SELF left anymore. He is almost too weak to do the steps needed to save the marriage. And she no longer cares to save it. She is looking to other more exciting men and setting herself up in case of divorce. Her little weak man, wuss, at home, will not leave her anyway. It is safe to flirt with other men because her little scared wuss is home waiting for her with a backrub after she flirts all night.

CommittedToJewel,
Plan B is an ultimatum saying, "Tow the line, or get out of the marriage."
No, Plan B is NOT an ultimatum.
It is simply, I will not contact you until you end your affair.” You are not giving him an ultimatum toi end the affair as in, “Tow the line, or get out of the marriage”.

you finally totally switch what you are doing, and say, "Fine. Leave."
Plan B has nothing to do with saying, “Fine. Leave”. Marriage Builders principles are based on honesty. Say what you mean and mean what you say.

Frankly, I think the easy way Plan B's and 180's are thrown around is irresponsible.
Yes, I agree.

The 180 and MB principles should NOT be used together (Steve Harley & Dr. Harley both agree on this).
Also, Dr. Harley seems to be changing his viewpoint that when the affair does not end, Plan B should be implemented SOONER rather than later. Steve will suggest going longer in Plan A.

<small>[ September 01, 2004, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

Chris, EL does not seem to think his wife is having an affair....

Baba --

I understand what you're saying... But I don't think what EL is dealing with is a power play. In fact, I think the power play scenario is probably relatively rare.

We don't seem to be dealing with an A here. We do seem to be dealing with someone trying to get hold of their life.

I do not think what I was describing was an intentional power play either. It is just a pattern two people can fall into.

I see what you're saying...

I can see that scenario happening. I don't know that EL is that far deep in that particular scenario.

To be honest, I think the problem is that scenario is the emphasis on "fixing the marriage" in the hope that you will "get back to SF."

This is why my W and I are using the MB concepts. We could sit down and have discussions every time I tick her off, or whatever, and I could get obsessive about "fixing the marriage."

Or, I could just meet her needs, and she can meet mine. We don't have to talk about it or think about it. We just do it.

Which is why EL's change was so important.

Instead of talking about how to change the scenario to improve the marriage, he just met the need that was there.

Now, she's going to remember that this is a man who is willing to go through a couple of options to look after her. That's helped the marriage. He's made a deposit.

Baba

*grins* <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> You are so right about so many things.

I think you’re right that the problem is the focus on her. You said it so well. I’ve been trying to say it but didn’t as clearly as you did.

The problem isn’t that he’s trying to find out what’s wrong, it’s that everything is relative to HER. So instead of expressing his needs as needs – which he absolutely should be doing, he’s running around expressing them in terms of HER.


Instead of: “I need affection.” “I’d like to give her a backrub” “I’d like to be touched.”
It’s: “I need her to need affection.” “I need her to need a back rub.” “I need her to need me to touch her.”

Instead of: “I need SF.”
It’s: “I need her to need me to give her SF.” Or, “I need her to need SF.”

Instead of: “I need to plan for retirement.”
It’s: “I need her to need to plan for retirement.”

Instead of: “I need a clean house.”
It’s: “I need her to need a clean house.”

Instead of: “I need to talk about <x>.” or “I need conversation.”
It’s: I need her to need to talk about <x>.” or “I need her to need conversation.”


I don’t think EL and his wife are quite on that path yet but it REALLY is a pitfall to be aware of and avoid. Each person should take responsibility for needing what s/he needs. Trying to get your needs filled by somehow “creating that need” in your spouse is unlikely to be an effective strategy. Instead, what is effective is clearly communicating what you need and how those needs are filled.

Right now, I don’t think a high risk strategy will be effective for EL and his wife because I think they both are still working on getting LB’s under control. A big difference between EL’s situation the situation described above is the amount of time that has been spent working on filling needs and eliminating LB’s(years as opposed to months). I do NOT advocate for EL shuttling all of his needs aside during this time. In fact, I do advocate that he assert his needs as Thoughtful Requests provided he can practice not indulging in DJ’s if she isn’t ready yet. This is still very early in the process. She has been showing some willingness to take care of his needs. If they are still here years from now after needs have been filled and LB’s have been eliminated, I’d be the first person to recommend a different strategy.

I don’t want EL to walk on eggshells; but I do want him to stop Lovebusting. I don’t want this to be all about how her needs get filled so she’ll toss him a crumb or two; but I do want him to learn to meet her needs so she can be happy in this marriage, too. I don’t want this to be about him giving up his top EN (SF), in fact, I tried to convince him to work on that FIRST but he said he didn’t think that was a good idea. I’ve also suggested that he respectfully assert that need. I don’t want EL to be a wuss; I want him to learn to build agreement with his wife.

Mys

I agree with you mostly, Myschae... But I don't think that she's emotionally secure enough to think about his needs. She's too used to being LB'd and, in her mind, harrassed about the marriage. I don't know that right now even *mentioning* SF won't bring up enough emotional baggage that it is an LB. It will feel like an attack for her.

First, he's going to have to put enough effort into getting her for her to trust him not to hurt her in a talk about those previous issues.

Ideally, I'd be saying the same thing to her, as well, and they'd both be focussing on build up the other's Love Bank.

But, a person in withdrawal has such a low "Balance" that I don't think they're in that kind of a position.

MYS, thanks for refining my advice into what applies to his situation!

And Jewell, I agree the SF thing is far from her mind right now. She has not wanted that for a very long time.

If I were him I would get some new hobbies, make himself happy and attractive, get out more with his buddies, do some workouts or some sports. Hiking perhaps.

If he can do this but still be halfway available to listen to his wife once in a while, without hounding her, he may appear to become more attractive to her over time.

EL, WHO are you besides a marriage partner?

What things do YOU like to do?

What passions and interests do you have in life?

If you did not have your family, what would you be like?

What would a typical, ideal day be for you if you were single?

<small>[ September 01, 2004, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: baba2 ]</small>

Just for Posterity's sake:

I think I agree, Baba.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I agree with you mostly, Myschae... But I don't think that she's emotionally secure enough to think about his needs. She's too used to being LB'd and, in her mind, harrassed about the marriage. I don't know that right now even *mentioning* SF won't bring up enough emotional baggage that it is an LB. It will feel like an attack for her.

First, he's going to have to put enough effort into getting her for her to trust him not to hurt her in a talk about those previous issues. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A few short weeks ago he was able to approach her successfully and achieve very positive results in this area. I think she bounces in and out of deep withdrawal and approachability. Assuming he’s right and there has been a period of time of few or no LB’s and given that he got her attention last night with a change in his behavior, I suspect there is a better than average chance of her being approachable and a very good chance that a Respectful Request will not be a LB.

I don’t think she’s in a place to offer but I do think she is very aware of this need of his and I truly believe that she is trying to work on this marriage. She seems to struggle a lot but much of that is due to LB’s being lobbed in her direction. It’s the same for EL he also gets his buttons zinged a lot. I’d like to see him practice approaching her with his needs in a way that is framed as something SHE can do for HIM as opposed to something he wants to do for her and is also peripherally to his benefit.

I think he’ll do no harm by asking unless it’s to himself by jumping to a DJ (or not taking it well if she declines). I have pretty good faith in EL in that when he's aware of things he has been doing quite well at short circuting his reactions and turning the situation into something positive. It's those improv situations that still get him! *winks at EL*

Just my $.02,
Mys

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A few short weeks ago he was able to approach her successfully and achieve very positive results in this area. I think she bounces in and out of deep withdrawal and approachability. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Was not aware of this. Advise on, Myschae!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Was not aware of this. Advise on, Myschae!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What?! You didn't read all 30 pages of this monster thread?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Slacker! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />