</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The problem isn’t that he’s trying to find out what’s wrong, it’s that everything is relative to HER. So instead of expressing his needs as needs – which he absolutely should be doing, he’s running around expressing them in terms of HER.


Instead of: “I need affection.” “I’d like to give her a backrub” “I’d like to be touched.”
It’s: “I need her to need affection.” “I need her to need a back rub.” “I need her to need me to touch her.”
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Geesh, this sounds way too familar.

A few weeks ago Myschae hit me with the 2x4.

[myschae: Instead of: “I need SF.” “I’d like to please her during SF”
It’s: “I need her to enjoy SF.” “I need her to need SF.”

Instead of trying to do an end-around to get what I need my homework has been to ask for what I want.

SO EL should have just stated: 'It gives me real pleasure to take care of you. It would mean a great deal if I could provide some comfort for you'. Or something along that line.

WOW! I turn my back for a few hours and the monster thread grows......

There has been soooo much back and forth, I will just try to address points and individuals here.

Baba2 -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Keep changing up your behavior. It is clear she expects you to be the same way every day and do the same things, say the same things, and respond the same ways.

If you are different, it could be interesting and also help her realize she does not have you fully trained and under her control... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do agree with changing my behavior. Obviously my past behavior was helping cause where we are at. I am trying to give better responses to things. When she gave me a look that through me because she was surprised at what I said being different than what she was expecting, it made me feel good, because I would describe her look as a "pleasently surprised look."

DadanHusband -

I just wanted to say that I am very happy for your results. I do share some similarities with your past situation. I applaud you for having the courage in the end to call a spade a spade and say "Leave."

As you stated, you were going through this for 18 years. We have been going through it for 4 years until I actually "woke up" and realized that I caused some of this. I was so blind and thought, what happen to her from giving birth to our S. We spent a lot of the four years trying to actively figure out what was wrong with her. There were things that my W would take on herself to look into to try and fix "her problem." I have been married before and do understand what it was like for you to come to your point of "no return." I had to actively choose to finally end my M in the end and it hurts. It ended up for the best, but it hurts. It took me a while before I finally got to the point of ending things, but in the end, my soul got me to the right place.

Having been through the experience of a bad M where my W cheated on me before, allows me to know that I am capable of getting through this hurtful experience if it ultimately is necessary. At this point it is clearly not the time for this drastic of a measure for me.

I have just started seeing some of the things I have been doing for the last four years. I am know going through the process of changing, what I agree to be poor behavior. By changing this and working towards meeting my W's ENs, I am creating a situation where she may feel comfortable to forgive me for the past. When she feels comfortable enough to forgive me, then she may move towards meeting my ENs. If I feel I have fixed my behavior to the point I feel is good for our M, and my W does not feel like meeting my ENs or working on our M, then I will take a long internal look at what I feel my recourse is. I am confident that I will not let myself down on this. In fact, I was at a point of walking away from the M in April, when I found this MB site. My attitude has turned around and my behavior is improving.

Thanks for writting and please keep me updated as to your progress. I am pulling for you and it is always great to hear the success stories.

CTJ -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If the relationship isn't already strained incredibly, this may do nothing more than insult the person and make them *want* to leave the marriage.

Typically, Plan B and a 180 is recommended in a situation where the spouse thinks they might want out of the marriage. So instead of constantly trying to be nice to them, you finally totally switch what you are doing, and say, "Fine. Leave."

It doesn't sound to me like EL is at this point. He is at a point where he is trying to extablish an *emotional* connection with his W, so that they can communicate. "My way or the highway" doesn't build that up. It breaks it down. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are correct, that I do feel this would impact our M negatively at this point because of the incredible amount of hurt we have both built up. Basically we are tow very head strong individuals. If I gave my W an ultimatum, she would do what I would not want her to just because of the fact that I gave her an ultimatum. This has happened before. Therefore, in order for this idea to be good for me, I need to be at a place where I know I have done everything I could (not there yet), forgave her for her hurt to me (not there yet), see no other alternative for a happy life (not there yet), and sick to my gut from the realization this situation will not change (not there yet). It is kind of like asking a boss for a raise. If you go and demand a certain amount or you will leave, you better be prepared to leave. Marriage is not something you should take the chance of a bluff on.

Myschae -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And, in any case, there is just no way I’d draw a connection between declining a massage and my H feeling rejected. Heck, EL, you’ve explicitly STATED you feel rejected about it and I’m still having a hard time wrapping my fuzzy little mind around the concept. I’ll give you a peek into my internal dialogue:
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you might draw this conclusion if your H were not getting his number one EN met (SF, like you forgot). This creates the situation that anything involving touch or your H doing something for you feels like a rejection, when even an offer is denied. I am not saying it is normal and OK. I am just saying it is the first feeling I have (in my gut) when this happens. It is caused by being hypersensitive to any and all rejections and/or denials over a long period of time. I agree I need to change, but it is how I felt.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I’ll do you one better. Ideally, instead of necessarily having to adopt each other’s ideas about fairness, you’ll both understand each other’s ideas of fairness and act accordingly. She’ll be able to understand how to treat you – which is different than how she, herself, wants to be treated. The standard isn’t “Treat your spouse how you want to be treated.” The standard is “Treat your spouse how s/he wants to be treated.” Make sense?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Makes sense.

Baba2 -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I believe a vicious circle happens in some marriages and getting out of the circle is not only hard but imperative. It could happen with either spouse but I am using husband and wife to be clearer and relate more to EL situation. You guys can correct or polish my understanding of it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I felt this was a very good post. I read each item and it captivated me as I went down the list. My thoughts were, Oh, how horrible! I do understand the vicous cycle but I do not think we are at this point yet. I do feel she does not respect me like I need her to (what do you say about how I wrote this, MYSCHAE?). I do think she is probably feeling like me where we would describe ourselves as out of love at the moment. I feel my W is working on some things, however, I think for the moment she is stuck at working on things SHE FEELS IMPORTANT OR NEEDS and does not understand the difference to what I need.

Cool post though.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Chris, EL does not seem to think his wife is having an affair.... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My W is not having an affair. This is not me in denial. Look back on my previous posts. I know my W is not having an affair.


CTJ -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I understand what you're saying... But I don't think what EL is dealing with is a power play. In fact, I think the power play scenario is probably relatively rare.

We don't seem to be dealing with an A here. We do seem to be dealing with someone trying to get hold of their life.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with ALL of this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now, she's going to remember that this is a man who is willing to go through a couple of options to look after her. That's helped the marriage. He's made a deposit.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, I hope so!

Myschae (take 2) -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The problem isn’t that he’s trying to find out what’s wrong, it’s that everything is relative to HER. So instead of expressing his needs as needs – which he absolutely should be doing, he’s running around expressing them in terms of HER.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree, and am now working on changing this. It came through loud and clear. Thanks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don’t think EL and his wife are quite on that path yet but it REALLY is a pitfall to be aware of and avoid. Each person should take responsibility for needing what s/he needs. Trying to get your needs filled by somehow “creating that need” in your spouse is unlikely to be an effective strategy. Instead, what is effective is clearly communicating what you need and how those needs are filled.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not think we are on this path YET either. I see the point here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Right now, I don’t think a high risk strategy will be effective for EL and his wife because I think they both are still working on getting LB’s under control. A big difference between EL’s situation the situation described above is the amount of time that has been spent working on filling needs and eliminating LB’s(years as opposed to months). I do NOT advocate for EL shuttling all of his needs aside during this time. In fact, I do advocate that he assert his needs as Thoughtful Requests provided he can practice not indulging in DJ’s if she isn’t ready yet. This is still very early in the process. She has been showing some willingness to take care of his needs. If they are still here years from now after needs have been filled and LB’s have been eliminated, I’d be the first person to recommend a different strategy.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am counting on this! You boundary helper, you!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don’t want EL to walk on eggshells; but I do want him to stop Lovebusting. I don’t want this to be all about how her needs get filled so she’ll toss him a crumb or two; but I do want him to learn to meet her needs so she can be happy in this marriage, too. I don’t want this to be about him giving up his top EN (SF), in fact, I tried to convince him to work on that FIRST but he said he didn’t think that was a good idea. I’ve also suggested that he respectfully assert that need. I don’t want EL to be a wuss; I want him to learn to build agreement with his wife.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Its not that it was not a good idea (from my POV it would have been wonderful). It is the fact that my W and any inkling of SF (discussing it or whatever) had become such a hot button, that she would completely shut down at the thought of it. So, after years of this concept soaking in through my thick skull, I have now understood that a different approach is necessary. I do want to learn to build agreement with my W and you guys are really helping me. The thing is, one of our issues (and yes, I thought I might try and multi-task a little, but keep the current issues in check with forward progress), is her worrying about my reactions to her rejections. So if she is not ready to initiate anything, then the only way she is going to see I have changed on this front is for me to try and initiate at times. It is very helpful that you gave me advice on considering what I would do/say in the event of the rejection.

CTJ -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I agree with you mostly, Myschae... But I don't think that she's emotionally secure enough to think about his needs. She's too used to being LB'd and, in her mind, harrassed about the marriage. I don't know that right now even *mentioning* SF won't bring up enough emotional baggage that it is an LB. It will feel like an attack for her.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is something that is forefront on my mind. I do not want to hurt her or any of our progress, by merely asking (even if I ask properly). Even if I handle the rejection how she would want me to, I would think potential damage could be done from merely asking at this point. Remember, I cannot have her tie SF together with everything else right now because she will think (as she has mentioned in the past) all you care about is SF and if I just gave in there would be no more issues for you.

However, I am also concerned with Baba2's point about my W loosing respect for me, by the fact that I do not ask for SF.

Do you all see the quandry that plagues me here?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> First, he's going to have to put enough effort into getting her for her to trust him not to hurt her in a talk about those previous issues.

Ideally, I'd be saying the same thing to her, as well, and they'd both be focussing on build up the other's Love Bank.

But, a person in withdrawal has such a low "Balance" that I don't think they're in that kind of a position.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Unfortunately, I think you are correct here as well.

Baba2 -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If I were him I would get some new hobbies, make himself happy and attractive, get out more with his buddies, do some workouts or some sports. Hiking perhaps.

If he can do this but still be halfway available to listen to his wife once in a while, without hounding her, he may appear to become more attractive to her over time. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hear ya. I am trying to do this and hope it will turn out good. I do not wnat her to percieve my reduction in hounding her about fixing our M is caused by a loss in my desire to fix our M. I have not hounded her about fixing our M as much over the last month.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> EL, WHO are you besides a marriage partner?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am a business owner and a father as well as a marriage partner. My current problem is that I have to work a lot (usually 12 - 13 hours a day). I have been trying to cut back, but the business' performance take a dive when I do this. When I get home, my W needs a break from our S and I spend time with him. Then it is usually time to go to bed, where we lay in bed and have some time to talk (20 minutes or so). This is my typical day. When I get home, I have also been doing what I can around the house, like dishes, cleaning, putting laundry away. I literally do not have time for a hobby.

On the weekends, we are usually doing improvements to the house or landscaping. You see, we built a house 3 years ago and are still in the decorating the interior and building the outside landscaping. So we do put a lot of time into the house. Once in a while, we get the chance to go out like last Saturday.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What things do YOU like to do?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I like a number of things, but for me it is a matter of priorities during different times in one's life. I do not have a need to have to do other things right now because I am so focused on keeping our business afloat and fixing our M (not necessarily listed in order of importance). These are the two main things in my life, the third main thing is my S, who I love dearly.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What passions and interests do you have in life? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Passions, lets see. We'll I like to golf, when I get the chance. I like to travel because I have gotten used to a large amount of travel from my work over the last 10 years. There are things I would like to see around the World, such as the pyramids etc.. I like some history. I like to read. I like to swim. I like to write.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you did not have your family, what would you be like? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I did not have my family, I would be more of a risk taker on the things I would do. I have always wanted to try a HALO jump, but everyone tells me I am crazy. I just think it would be a rush.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What would a typical, ideal day be for you if you were single?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What a loaded question! Spending it with my nymphomaniac girl friend. Did you expect anything else from me at this point?

Myschae -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> A few short weeks ago he was able to approach her successfully and achieve very positive results in this area. I think she bounces in and out of deep withdrawal and approachability. Assuming he’s right and there has been a period of time of few or no LB’s and given that he got her attention last night with a change in his behavior, I suspect there is a better than average chance of her being approachable and a very good chance that a Respectful Request will not be a LB. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She does bounce in and out of withdrawl. I do think she may be approachable and this is why I thought it might be worth asking. But then again I was not sure. I guess, one way I could look at it is that if I held off asking and maintained improvements in other areas, would it not give me a better chance at not being rejected?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don’t think she’s in a place to offer but I do think she is very aware of this need of his and I truly believe that she is trying to work on this marriage. She seems to struggle a lot but much of that is due to LB’s being lobbed in her direction. It’s the same for EL he also gets his buttons zinged a lot. I’d like to see him practice approaching her with his needs in a way that is framed as something SHE can do for HIM as opposed to something he wants to do for her and is also peripherally to his benefit. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, I agree here. I do see some of what she does as her protecting herself. For example, when I said, "Honey, I heard what you said about not wanting a back rub, (at this point she tensed up and I got the feeling she was thinking here it comes again), I was wondering if there was anything else I could do to help your pain. This is where she relaxed and had the good "look" on her face.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think he’ll do no harm by asking unless it’s to himself by jumping to a DJ (or not taking it well if she declines). I have pretty good faith in EL in that when he's aware of things he has been doing quite well at short circuting his reactions and turning the situation into something positive. It's those improv situations that still get him! *winks at EL* </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hear ya teach!

MyAlias -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> SO EL should have just stated: 'It gives me real pleasure to take care of you. It would mean a great deal if I could provide some comfort for you'. Or something along that line.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right. This would work I think.

Thanks to all of you guys for giving your thoughts. I do really appreciate all of the support.

Take care,

EL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is something that is forefront on my mind. I do not want to hurt her or any of our progress, by merely asking (even if I ask properly). Even if I handle the rejection how she would want me to, I would think potential damage could be done from merely asking at this point. Remember, I cannot have her tie SF together with everything else right now because she will think (as she has mentioned in the past) all you care about is SF and if I just gave in there would be no more issues for you.

However, I am also concerned with Baba2's point about my W loosing respect for me, by the fact that I do not ask for SF.

Do you all see the quandry that plagues me here?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah... If the respectful request stuff Myschae as mentioned doesn't work out, I would take the "turn a liability into an asset" approach.

I would tell her something like:

"Honey... I can tell this is something you're just not ready for. And althought it is important to me, I want you to be in a place where you can feel comfortable when we talk about this. So, I'm going to wait a month and talk to you about it again."

You're not a weakling who's browbeaten, then. You're a man who is putting his wife's needs ahead of his own.

OK, WOW!

I have had an unexpected turn of events last night.

First, I got home to find my W paying bills. She was flustered and in a mood of being over whelmed. She started right away with the house is a mess, the patio is not finished, the landscaping is not how I want it, the laundry is not done and I have too much to do.

I said, "Honey, on Sunday, I cleaned a fair amount of the house and did the dishes." She said, "You picked up but you did not clean. Cleaning is my job and I am over whelmed." I said, "I understand you are frustrated and I will help you clean the house." She did not say anything, after a pause, she said, "I am getting sick of every moment I have, I am working on the patio." I said, "I am getting sick of this too, every moment I have, I am also working on the patio." She said, "I am working on it everyday, when I do not have other important things to do like write out the bills." This really bothered me because she has not worked on the patio for a week until two days ago. She is grouting the entire patio, while I am finishing all the tricky tiling. I have about one day left of tiling and I will be done. Every time I have a day, which even weekends is a luxury for me, I am working on this patio and am almost finished. She was stating that she is the only one working on the patio, which really upset me because we have both been working on it for a month and a half. It turned out to be a really big job! So, I said, "I also am working on the patio when I am not at work. I am taking this Friday off to get the patio finished because the best weather we will have this week is supposed to be on Friday. I understand your frustration and will work with you to eliminate all the work you are feeling pressured by." I could tell this discussion was going to go no where if we continued and she was not going to see my POV so I just stopped saying anything. She did not say anything either. I cleaned the downstairs again, it can get messy quickly with a 4 year old!

Anyway, after all this and my W feeling pressured by her feeling of too many things to do, I thought, this would not be a good night to try and reach an agreement with regards to the MC. Later in the evening, I was talking with my W and she was giving her opinion on something about my work. I paused and then said, "Honey, I understand your feelings about the MC and I agree with what you have said about the MC not helping if it is going to be us rehashing an old argument all the time. I am frustrated with the MC because I feel that we are not being coached enough, and are not being given much to work on away from the MC. I paused and listened. She said, "You are right. I do not think rehashing old arguments that we are over is helping us. I do not think we should look for another MC because this is the third one we have been to already and I do not want to keep starting over. I agree with the MC not giving us much to work on away from her office." I was floored by this response because it shows she is not against the MC and that she does see some value in it (let me know if I am reading too much into this). I said, "I feel we have gotten better over the last few months, but unfortunately, I do not really attribute much of our improvement to the MC. I would like to ask if you would consider coming up with some ideas you think would be more useful for our MC sessions. I am not asking for ideas right now, because I also need some time to come up with my own ideas." She said, "OK." I said, "I do not want to make this a long discussion about MC, I just wanted to get your thoughts on this because it is something I have been thinking about for a couple of weeks now. I have been feeling a little helpless because I do not know what a good MC should be like. Therefore, I asked the nice people on 'the website' and they gave me some really good thoughts on this issue." She said, "You are still writing to people on that site?" I said, "Yes, I am and I find it quite helpful. You are more than welcome to go on the sight and look at everything I wrote." She said, "You do not know who these people are." I said, "These people are people just like us who are wanting to improve their Ms and quite often have some great advice." She said, "I can tell things have gotten better because before, I would suggest an idea and if it was not how you wanted to do something, you would argue against what my idea was. If it was not your idea, you would not support me. You do not do this as much anymore." I said, "I hear what you are saying and thanks for telling me this. Can we agree to come back to this, say, on Monday and come up with some ideas for the MC?" She said, "yes."

So, what do you guys think? I think we reached our first agreement. I certainly did not expect such a resonding and positive response. This has really gave me a boost of hope for our M! Although I was totally excited by this response, I did not want to run it into the ground. I left it alone and did not later tell her how nice I thought it was that we communicated like that. I did not tell her how happy it made me that she was positive on the MC. I definitely was expecting her to say, "Why don't we just stop going because it is not helping?" I am pretty happy right now. I did not want to potentially "ruin" the evening by asking for SF either.

Now, I need to get what my thoughts are regarding the MC together for Monday. I am not going to be on the web much at all after today, until Tuesday after the MC. Any thoughts today would be very much welcome.

Thanks everyone,

EL

WAAAAAAHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

SCORE!!!

Great news! You did a wonderful job! Excellent!

Ok, now I'm too excited to think.. I'll calm down at some point.

*grinning ear to ear*

Mys

You're learning to discuss things together! Congratulations! You're both pulling for your marriage, and you've started to respectfully adjust your communications to each other. Keep up with the good hard work, I think things will just get better.

At some point, you might suggest that some of the changes in *you* are coming from from the MB concepts. She may decide to see if she can gain some benefit by looking through here as well.

EL --

Had a thought on the first half of this, that I thought it might be good for you to hear.

This is another case of E-Speak/L-Speak which I keep bringing up. She was feeling a lot of pressure from the things she had to do. She used E-Speak to describe her overwhelming feelings of having the cleaning and patio work to do. To her it was *feeling* like she had all this work to do, and only she was doing it. Pressure often does this to a person. It not only magnifies the weight of a task, but it increases our perception of how much we have to do by ourselves.

Don't mistake it for L-speak, which is an accusation that you are never helpful and she just has too much to do around the house because you are neglectful.

Do take it as an indication that meeting her need for Domestic Support would be a great way to score some points, right now. Relieving stress is a big bonus. I imagine some suprise domestic support (that she feels is done correctly) would put a smile on her face.

I believe you said you were working 12-13 hours a day, and so finding the time to do *anything* is almost impossible. But, it's something for you to consider.

Great! Do this communication pattern every day.

Extremely Lost

I went through the thread and pulled some thoughts on this…

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> posted by Extremely Lost

How about something like, we need you to offer more guidance and suggestions on how I can understand my W's POV and gain the tools to not shoot my foot off?

or,

We need to understand what your over all approach is because for right now, we both feel like we are doing the same thing at every MC session, and would like to take a progressive step forward. I feel like we are working on a maintenance program where you try to keep a good M from getting off track. I feel we need to get ourselves on track first. We need you to help us learn to do things that will promote a positive and loving M, not just learn to deal with specific conflicts.

Each time we are at a session, I do learn about my W's different POV on the one disagreement we have discussed. However, what I learn does appear to be very situational. I need general rules and processes to move forward. Something that my W can buy into and support as well. So far this MC has given us very simple homework, like tell the other when someone says or does something that hurts. Tell them, "that hurts." Well, OK, but this does not really get us anywhere. How do I outline what I really need from this MC. I find it very difficult to express what I need to the MC in a manner that the MC will understand and participate in, while at the same time my W will also agree with. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> originally posted by.. ME!
I’m thinking back to my examples and the highlights are:

- you don’t want to rehash old arguments in MC
- You want to learn to build agreement
- You want to make sure that you are using I messages and acknowledging and validating what your wife says


So, it might be something like…


We are concerned that our MC sessions seem to be filled with describing and reliving our old arguments. What would be more helpful is if you can stop our conversation in here any time you can see that we are NOT in agreement or you can tell that we are not using “I” messages or not validating and acknowledging each other. My wife would like to <whatever she asks for>. I’d like to work towards focusing on solutions instead of simply describing what’s wrong to do that I’d like you to help us find some basis for agreement and build from that. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How else can we help? Want me to work up a good wife-friendly example?

Mys

Alright EL!!!!!!!!!! Way to go. You handled it great and it MOST definitely appears your W has vested interest in your M. Pay special attention to the comments she made that acknowledge your efforts. It may be hard for her to say those things so IMHO I believe they mean ALOT!!!!!

I'll defer the MC ideas to the experts.

I just wanted to share your recent success.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Yay EL! I'm so glad that convo went well! I think it does mean that your wife is open to working on changing your "dance", she just needs for you to take the lead in doing that and she will come around eventually. Yay!

I jsut wanted to drop in and give my thumbs up - but while i'm here... *evil grin*

Some things from your post that stood out:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "Honey, on Sunday, I cleaned a fair amount of the house and did the dishes." She said, "You picked up but you did not clean. Cleaning is my job and I am over whelmed." I said, "I understand you are frustrated and I will help you clean the house." She did not say anything, after a pause, she said, "I am getting sick of every moment I have, I am working on the patio." I said, "I am getting sick of this too, every moment I have, I am also working on the patio." She said, "I am working on it everyday, when I do not have other important things to do like write out the bills." This really bothered me because she has not worked on the patio for a week until two days ago. She is grouting the entire patio, while I am finishing all the tricky tiling. I have about one day left of tiling and I will be done. Every time I have a day, which even weekends is a luxury for me, I am working on this patio and am almost finished. She was stating that she is the only one working on the patio, which really upset me because we have both been working on it for a month and a half. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see here where she says she is the only one working on it. What I do see here is that she is feeling stressed and overwhelmed - and that the patio was really dragging on her. This is "E-talk" as CTJ put it. You did good to observe that she was frustrated and offer to help. Do note that she was not criticizing you with her comments (that I can see) - so there was/is no need to defend your efforts - and doing so might serve to invalidate her frustrations. But empathizing - "yeah honey - it is drainging that we have worked so hard on that and we aren't done yet. You sound stressed - is there anything I can do to help? OR How bout I take care of x, y, or z so we can relax a little tonight"

and this:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "I can tell things have gotten better because before, I would suggest an idea and if it was not how you wanted to do something, you would argue against what my idea was. If it was not your idea, you would not support me. You do not do this as much anymore." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ding ding ding ding! This is great information for you! I don't think this is the first time W has indicated this either, so it is obviously huge to her. What she's saying here is that she wants you to recognize and respect her point of view! good thing Mys has been working on that with you, eh? I just wanted to highlight this so you could remember to really be careful about this and to recognize that improvements that you make (and are making!) in this area are likely to reap huge rewards.

Now. Go back to your paragraph where you described the patio conversation. Do you see the number of times that you actively contradicted her POV? I'll help...

1. She is lamenting that things aren't done - she is feeling overwhelmed.

You respond that things are done because you have done them (invalidates her frustration)


But then you saved it by saying: I said, "I understand you are frustrated and I will help you clean the house." (good job!)

2. She is frustrated, overwhelmed, and discussing how she is tired of working on the patio.

You then comment that you have been working on it too. Now this could go either way - depending on tone. Were you implying that "yeah honey - I know what you mean, it sucks" - or was it "yeah honey - I'm frustrated too - look at my hurt and you'll notice that my hurt is just as much as yours if not more". The second one being the invalidating one...

I'm guessing your W interpreted the second (even if you didn't intend it) because of htis self talk that was happening:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Every time I have a day, which even weekends is a luxury for me, I am working on this patio and am almost finished. She was stating that she is the only one working on the patio, which really upset me because we have both been working on it for a month and a half. It turned out to be a really big job! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I also think this is interesting...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I could tell this discussion was going to go no where if we continued and she was not going to see my POV so I just stopped saying anything. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now - when in the conversation did it become about your POV and your wife accepting your view? Was anything she said false? Or was it all her expressing her feelings? She was saying that she has worked a lot on it, feels overwhelmed, etc.etc. etc. Maybe she spoke "emotionally" and said she'd been at it everyday when she hadn't. But what she was expressing was *her POV* that it was feeling overwhelming. You would have gotten a lot more points if you jumped straight to part where you accept her POV and say I'm sorry this sucks - how about I do this to relieve your burden? Rather then getting wrapped up in how her POV differed from yours.

Do you see what I'm saying here? Maybe, just maybe, if you had accepted her POV right off the bat and commiserated with her... then next time, when you are the one feeling burdened, she would be able to hold her POV in long enough to commiserate with you.

Now, it seems that this convo was fine and didn't create a stir - but I wanted to highlight what I saw. Especially since your wife directly commented on the bit about POVs. I'm just hoping that by pointing it out, you can see it better in the moment in the future. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

hope this helps
lfc

2.

A wife friendly example for your MC:


I was thinking of our last MC session. I said something about how I thought one of the problems with me and <wife> arguing was both wanting the last word. My W disagreed. I think the conversation should have been stopped at that point. Later, when I thought back on what she was saying, I noticed a lot of similarities between what we said. We both said something about responding to unkind words from each other. I don’t know how she feels about it, but I don’t think we were that far from agreeing, not necessarily about getting the last word, but perhaps about responding to unkind words. I think it would be really helpful if, instead of just continuing on the argument – which is what happened last week – the conversation could have been stopped and we could be coached in how to really listen to what is being said and try to find points of agreement, if possible.

One issue I know I fall short on is really listening to my wife effectively sometimes. I do try to listen but sometimes I think old habits get in the way. At the same time, I sometimes don’t feel heard enough. I try to express myself, not always in the best way, and somewhere in the words, my intentions get lost. I’d really love to be able to express myself better – in a way that gets my point across without hurting my wife. I’d like some coaching on how to get better at that.


What do you think? Lots of “I” messages in there.. should be pretty wife friendly.

Mys

Hello guys,

Thanks for the show of support, I am pretty enthusiastic about the positive signs.

Myschae -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> WAAAAAAHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

SCORE!!!

Great news! You did a wonderful job! Excellent!

Ok, now I'm too excited to think.. I'll calm down at some point.

*grinning ear to ear*
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You diserve a big thank you for all of your patients and help you have given me - and will give me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I was thinking of our last MC session. I said something about how I thought one of the problems with me and <wife> arguing was both wanting the last word. My W disagreed. I think the conversation should have been stopped at that point. Later, when I thought back on what she was saying, I noticed a lot of similarities between what we said. We both said something about responding to unkind words from each other. I don’t know how she feels about it, but I don’t think we were that far from agreeing, not necessarily about getting the last word, but perhaps about responding to unkind words. I think it would be really helpful if, instead of just continuing on the argument – which is what happened last week – the conversation could have been stopped and we could be coached in how to really listen to what is being said and try to find points of agreement, if possible.

One issue I know I fall short on is really listening to my wife effectively sometimes. I do try to listen but sometimes I think old habits get in the way. At the same time, I sometimes don’t feel heard enough. I try to express myself, not always in the best way, and somewhere in the words, my intentions get lost. I’d really love to be able to express myself better – in a way that gets my point across without hurting my wife. I’d like some coaching on how to get better at that.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, this is good. It is W friendly. I do think I need to stress about the MC taking more of an active roll, such as designing our recovery plan and giving us more concrete things to work on as well as stopping us in an argument and pointing out POVs (which is also what we need by the way). You see, if I say something similar to what you said, the MC would probably go OK and then say, what do you want to talk about? Or How was your last two weeks, did you have any big disagreements. I would respond by saying how we had come to an agreement together on wanting you to take a more active roll. Then what? Do you see what I am getting at or have I lost you?

CTJ -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You're learning to discuss things together! Congratulations! You're both pulling for your marriage, and you've started to respectfully adjust your communications to each other. Keep up with the good hard work, I think things will just get better.

At some point, you might suggest that some of the changes in *you* are coming from from the MB concepts. She may decide to see if she can gain some benefit by looking through here as well.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for your support. I like your suggestiong regarding MB and am trying to put MB in a positive light in her mind. If you have not read through the "monster" (I do not blame you), you would see that I had tried to get my W to read the MB books and fill out the surveys. She got about 76 pages into the HN/HN book and decided she did not agree with MB and their concepts. This is because she said that it points out that everything leads to the partner cheating if it is not fixed. Since, she was not seeing anything wrong (due to deep withdrawl), she could not/ nor can she still yet see that if things did not get better, we were not going to remain married. After mentioning "this website" last night and recieving a non-negative comment, I am hopeful she will, at some time in the future, decide to look more into it. The only concern I have is when she starts to read my threads, she may get mad at first because I had a lot to learn and was LBing & DJing all over the place. I do not think she would be understanding enough to read the entire couple of threads before she got mad and this caused some emptional scaring.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do take it as an indication that meeting her need for Domestic Support would be a great way to score some points, right now. Relieving stress is a big bonus. I imagine some suprise domestic support (that she feels is done correctly) would put a smile on her face.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is why I just walked away from the conversation going any further and started to just clean the house. She eventually asked me to stop after a while. We both finished up.

Baba2 -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Great! Do this communication pattern every day. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for the support. I will try to do this everyday.

MyAlias -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Alright EL!!!!!!!!!! Way to go. You handled it great and it MOST definitely appears your W has vested interest in your M. Pay special attention to the comments she made that acknowledge your efforts. It may be hard for her to say those things so IMHO I believe they mean ALOT!!!!!

I'll defer the MC ideas to the experts.

I just wanted to share your recent success.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for sharing. How is your M going? You do not talk about it much anymore.

LFC -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yay EL! I'm so glad that convo went well! I think it does mean that your wife is open to working on changing your "dance", she just needs for you to take the lead in doing that and she will come around eventually. Yay!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for the kind words.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I jsut wanted to drop in and give my thumbs up - but while i'm here... *evil grin*
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would not have it any other way. I missed your input since you were so close to my W in your thinking and situation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see here where she says she is the only one working on it. What I do see here is that she is feeling stressed and overwhelmed - and that the patio was really dragging on her. This is "E-talk" as CTJ put it. You did good to observe that she was frustrated and offer to help. Do note that she was not criticizing you with her comments (that I can see) - so there was/is no need to defend your efforts - and doing so might serve to invalidate her frustrations. But empathizing - "yeah honey - it is drainging that we have worked so hard on that and we aren't done yet. You sound stressed - is there anything I can do to help? OR How bout I take care of x, y, or z so we can relax a little tonight"
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hear what you are saying. She did start off talking like she was the "only one" doing anything. However, I do know this is not true. I should have just let it go, but I could not help it. I felt a little put down. I really wanted her to say, "Of Course, you and I have put a lot of work into this, I am just frustrated and stressed." Since she did not do this at all, it hurt me more. However, I just let it go and walked away and dealt with my hurt internally. I know eventually, this will not be the case and she will be more in tune to my sensitivities.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ding ding ding ding! This is great information for you! I don't think this is the first time W has indicated this either, so it is obviously huge to her. What she's saying here is that she wants you to recognize and respect her point of view! good thing Mys has been working on that with you, eh? I just wanted to highlight this so you could remember to really be careful about this and to recognize that improvements that you make (and are making!) in this area are likely to reap huge rewards. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I got it. I hope to keep doing this so she will eventually say, "you don't do this anymore."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now - when in the conversation did it become about your POV and your wife accepting your view? Was anything she said false? Or was it all her expressing her feelings? She was saying that she has worked a lot on it, feels overwhelmed, etc.etc. etc. Maybe she spoke "emotionally" and said she'd been at it everyday when she hadn't. But what she was expressing was *her POV* that it was feeling overwhelming. You would have gotten a lot more points if you jumped straight to part where you accept her POV and say I'm sorry this sucks - how about I do this to relieve your burden? Rather then getting wrapped up in how her POV differed from yours.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand that, but I am also balancing "looking myself in the mirror." I did not agree with her saying or acting like she is the only one who has a lot to do, or is the only one who does things. The first time, I said, "Honey, I understand, because I have put in every available free day towards this too." She said, "You have not been working on it every day!" This is true. It is also true that she has not either. I meant when I was not at work, I was working on this patio. She was arguing that I have put a ton of time into the patio. Even though this disturbed me greatly, I let it go after I saw it was not going to get both of us anywhere, but upset with eachother. So I just took care of my hurt internally and chalked the experience up to, she is not able to see how her actions are hurting me right now, but I can see how mine can hurt her. Therefore, I decided to not let me hurt her emotionally for the sake of my feeling better. Does this make sense?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do you see what I'm saying here? Maybe, just maybe, if you had accepted her POV right off the bat and commiserated with her... then next time, when you are the one feeling burdened, she would be able to hold her POV in long enough to commiserate with you.

Now, it seems that this convo was fine and didn't create a stir - but I wanted to highlight what I saw. Especially since your wife directly commented on the bit about POVs. I'm just hoping that by pointing it out, you can see it better in the moment in the future.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks, it does help.

Take care everyone,

EL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hear what you are saying. She did start off talking like she was the "only one" doing anything. However, I do know this is not true. I should have just let it go, but I could not help it. I felt a little put down. I really wanted her to say, "Of Course, you and I have put a lot of work into this, I am just frustrated and stressed." Since she did not do this at all, it hurt me more. However, I just let it go and walked away and dealt with my hurt internally. I know eventually, this will not be the case and she will be more in tune to my sensitivities. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sorry LFC I had to stick my nose into this part of your conversation.

EL, I'm not sure you are hearing what LFC is saying. Maybe to give me some reassurance you are truly hearing you could rephrase your reply here.

LFC was pointing out that you interpreted your W's feeling statements with bold attacks on you... YET I don't see anywhere where your W took any shot at you. What statement did she make that said anything about YOU????

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know eventually, this will not be the case and she will be more in tune to my sensitivities. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NO. NO. NO. Soon you will be in touch with your OWN sensitivities and INSECURITIES and you will recognize what your W is trying to tell you. You own your own behaviors and it isn't her responsibility to be CAREFUL around you. It is your job to change your reaction to things that aren't meant as hurtful but are interpreted by your WAY OF THINKING as being hurtful.

Your W was trying to open up to you in your explanation of the conversation. She was trying to tell you how SHE was feeling and you somehow managed to turn A PART of it around into being about YOU!!!!

Granted this conversation didn't become an argument with your W but it may have given her an indication that not everything about you and your behavior has changed.

What do you think about what I said?

===========================

OH and as far as my M is concerned things are going well. I'm still working on asking for what I want and am making some progress. I'm still a little gun-shy and am trying not to come off as being overbearing or demanding to my W. But all in all things are going really well. It's amazing how often something comes up that makes asking for SF a burden (illness, TOM, children, etc.) Sometimes I think the forces of evil are against me.

Here's an example of how my behavior is paying off. I'd asked a few times for you-know-what and something made it improbable/impossible for us to do you-know-what. So after a few days when she was in a really good mood she approached me early in the day, gave me a huge hug and kiss and said (extremely playfully) if I behave myself I might get lucky later. Well you-know-what was my reward.

Hi there... continuing on this thought...


Thanks for dropping in MyAlias! You made exactly the point I was trying to make. Maybe you can help me express what I'm trying to say here...


EL- I think you and your wife are doing the exact same thing to each other. Let me show you where...

On your side:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She said, "I am working on it everyday, when I do not have other important things to do like write out the bills." This really bothered me because she has not worked on the patio for a week until two days ago. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">she expreses a feeling statement about how much perceived effort she is putting in. Rather than sympathize, you confront her (even mentally) on the technicality of her statement. She feels invalidated, you feel as though she is inflating her case to get undeserved sympathy (?).

On her side: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I said, "Honey, I understand, because I have put in every available free day towards this too." She said, "You have not been working on it every day!" This is true.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You express that you are also feeling drained due to a lot of effort. Rather than sympathizing with you - she picked out the "facts" to disagree with.

Now - I don't point this out for you to place blame on your W and say - yeah she needs to change that. I point it out so that maybe you can empathize with her feelings of being invalidated based on a presentation of the "facts" in order to discount "feelings". Since you're here - you're the one that needs to work on changing this.

Also -

My Alias said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> LFC was pointing out that you interpreted your W's feeling statements with bold attacks on you... YET I don't see anywhere where your W took any shot at you. What statement did she make that said anything about YOU????


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know eventually, this will not be the case and she will be more in tune to my sensitivities.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NO. NO. NO. Soon you will be in touch with your OWN sensitivities and INSECURITIES and you will recognize what your W is trying to tell you. You own your own behaviors and it isn't her responsibility to be CAREFUL around you. It is your job to change your reaction to things that aren't meant as hurtful but are interpreted by your WAY OF THINKING as being hurtful.

Your W was trying to open up to you in your explanation of the conversation. She was trying to tell you how SHE was feeling and you somehow managed to turn A PART of it around into being about YOU!!!!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes! Yes! Yes! EL - this conversation could have had nothing to do with you. It could have been simply your W being frstrated, and you being comforted. It did not have to be an attack on you - that's simply how you interpreted it.

And it is not about your W learning how to walk on eggshells around you. In a perfect world she would be more sensitive - but the responsibility is largely on your shoulders to OWN your OWN feelings. She did not attack you. She expressed HER OWN feelings about HOW SHE IS FEELING. Your role is not to defend and say "but..but.. I'm feeling that way too!" - it is simply to listen and comfort. and then next time, when it's your turn to feel hurt, she can domfort you. But rarely does it work when you struggle over control of who gets comforted in any given conversation.

*rereads last sentence* hmmm... I think I have the opposite issue as you, EL.... must think about this....

lfc

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I would respond by saying how we had come to an agreement together on wanting you to take a more active roll. Then what? Do you see what I am getting at or have I lost you?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes.

Then you say: I'd like to hear what sort of strategies or exercises you think that we should be working on right now to improve our communication both in and out of the office. What types of suggestions can you offer us?

Mys

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do not think she would be understanding enough to read the entire couple of threads before she got mad and this caused some emptional scaring.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ask her if she'd be willing to read backwards so that she can see where you are NOW before she sees where you were then.

*winks*

Mys

Maybe she'd be too afraid to read the forums for a while, and would stick with the website. ;-D

EL,

Here's the parting shot (since I know you're leaving for the weekend soon and by the way good luck finishing up that patio!)...

I think whatever ideas you have will be great - just be very, very, very careful not to include them as benefits to your wife or something SHE needs unless she explicitly gives you them as goals when you talk Monday night. Pay very special attention to how I phrased your request for her to listen better.

It wasn't: "I'd also like my wife to listen better blah blah blah..."

It was: "I'd also like to feel more heard. Sometimes my intentions don't come across in my words and I don't feel understood blah blah blah"

Do you notice the difference? Trust me, the counselor will understand that communication is a two way street. I assume your wife will have some ideas, too. Make sure you incorporate those. If you're the one who is "talking" to the MC, I think it would be a nice touch if you mention her ideas before your own. (I'd tend to do that in a similar situation, it's not so much a chivalry (male/female) thing it's just that if I'm talking for "us" I tend to get his concerns out there first.) Other than that, I think you're going to do well. Like I said before, you're really getting much better and more comfortable with dealing with planned situations - it's those improvs that get you. But those are going to come in time.

Mys

Hey guys,

MyAlias -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> EL, I'm not sure you are hearing what LFC is saying. Maybe to give me some reassurance you are truly hearing you could rephrase your reply here.

LFC was pointing out that you interpreted your W's feeling statements with bold attacks on you... YET I don't see anywhere where your W took any shot at you. What statement did she make that said anything about YOU???? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see what you guys are meaning. I did not take them as bold attacks as much as insensitive statements. Do you see what difference I mean?

I will know better next time. It is difficult at first. It is like learning to speak a new language.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> NO. NO. NO. Soon you will be in touch with your OWN sensitivities and INSECURITIES and you will recognize what your W is trying to tell you. You own your own behaviors and it isn't her responsibility to be CAREFUL around you. It is your job to change your reaction to things that aren't meant as hurtful but are interpreted by your WAY OF THINKING as being hurtful.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK. I get what you are saying, but theoretically speaking, say my W DJs all over the place. I would take this as hurtful, yet according to what you wrote, it is only hurtful to me because of my way of thinking. This does not agree with MB, where there clearly are defined phrases or wording that we are told we should be taking as hurtful. Do you see what I mean? Therefore, if my W says something that I feel is insensitive to me, and am hurt by it (we cannot change how we feel from something, only the way we react to the hurt), is she not LBing? I think this gets confusing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Your W was trying to open up to you in your explanation of the conversation. She was trying to tell you how SHE was feeling and you somehow managed to turn A PART of it around into being about YOU!!!!

Granted this conversation didn't become an argument with your W but it may have given her an indication that not everything about you and your behavior has changed.

What do you think about what I said?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have valid points here, especially where you say my reactions could indicate to her that I have not totally changed yet.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> OH and as far as my M is concerned things are going well. I'm still working on asking for what I want and am making some progress. I'm still a little gun-shy and am trying not to come off as being overbearing or demanding to my W. But all in all things are going really well. It's amazing how often something comes up that makes asking for SF a burden (illness, TOM, children, etc.) Sometimes I think the forces of evil are against me.

Here's an example of how my behavior is paying off. I'd asked a few times for you-know-what and something made it improbable/impossible for us to do you-know-what. So after a few days when she was in a really good mood she approached me early in the day, gave me a huge hug and kiss and said (extremely playfully) if I behave myself I might get lucky later. Well you-know-what was my reward.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Terrific! Thanks for the update. I am glad to see you are moving forward. Good job!

LFC -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> EL- I think you and your wife are doing the exact same thing to each other. Let me show you where...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for pointing this out. I did not really see this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now - I don't point this out for you to place blame on your W and say - yeah she needs to change that. I point it out so that maybe you can empathize with her feelings of being invalidated based on a presentation of the "facts" in order to discount "feelings". Since you're here - you're the one that needs to work on changing this.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right and will get no resistance from me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes! Yes! Yes! EL - this conversation could have had nothing to do with you. It could have been simply your W being frstrated, and you being comforted. It did not have to be an attack on you - that's simply how you interpreted it.

And it is not about your W learning how to walk on eggshells around you. In a perfect world she would be more sensitive - but the responsibility is largely on your shoulders to OWN your OWN feelings. She did not attack you. She expressed HER OWN feelings about HOW SHE IS FEELING. Your role is not to defend and say "but..but.. I'm feeling that way too!" - it is simply to listen and comfort. and then next time, when it's your turn to feel hurt, she can domfort you. But rarely does it work when you struggle over control of who gets comforted in any given conversation. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see what you are saying. Thanks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> *rereads last sentence* hmmm... I think I have the opposite issue as you, EL.... must think about this....
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can see this. Maybe you do need to take some control on your getting comforted more. Just a thought.

Myschae -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Then you say: I'd like to hear what sort of strategies or exercises you think that we should be working on right now to improve our communication both in and out of the office. What types of suggestions can you offer us?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thats ok. What I think she would say, based upon past sessions is: Tell each other when you are hurt by something that someone says. I need more than this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ask her if she'd be willing to read backwards so that she can see where you are NOW before she sees where you were then.

*winks*
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good idea.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Here's the parting shot (since I know you're leaving for the weekend soon and by the way good luck finishing up that patio!)...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks. Are you doing anymore with moving this weekend? If you are good luck and stay sane.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think whatever ideas you have will be great - just be very, very, very careful not to include them as benefits to your wife or something SHE needs unless she explicitly gives you them as goals when you talk Monday night. Pay very special attention to how I phrased your request for her to listen better. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I here you and will listen to your valuable advice.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do you notice the difference? Trust me, the counselor will understand that communication is a two way street. I assume your wife will have some ideas, too. Make sure you incorporate those. If you're the one who is "talking" to the MC, I think it would be a nice touch if you mention her ideas before your own. (I'd tend to do that in a similar situation, it's not so much a chivalry (male/female) thing it's just that if I'm talking for "us" I tend to get his concerns out there first.) Other than that, I think you're going to do well. Like I said before, you're really getting much better and more comfortable with dealing with planned situations - it's those improvs that get you. But those are going to come in time.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. I understand and will try to do this. Hopefully my W will come up with what she feels will be helpful to her.

CTJ -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Maybe she'd be too afraid to read the forums for a while, and would stick with the website. ;-D
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not really think my W is afraid of much. If she decided to look into this site, she would read it all. I just hope it is with an understanding eye and information I have posted is not take out of context and sets our relationship back many paces.

Thanks to you all, I am looking forward to this weekend and forward progress with my W.

I hope you all have a wonderful and non-hurtful weekend,

Take Care,

EL