</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One of the problems is that the whole issue started when she was emailing an ex-boyfriend and writing "Love." The other problem is that my W is a very smart woman, but somehow cannot pickup when guys are hitting on her or taking things too far. With her signing "love" it just invites temptation from a third party. We do not need this extra crap. Things are difficult enough between us as it is.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree that it is a dangerous activity. What I don't get is why you would plan to react to it in the same was as if she was actually having the affair. It sounds almost like a kind of preemptive strike mentality, to me.

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I beg to differ. This is because, this most likely could be a pivitol point, a way as CTJ put it, to show my W that I have changed. However, I must do this by sacraficing my own beliefs and boundary which make me uncomfortable. If I do not like myself because I feel like I am letting myself be stepped on by allowing the boundary to be ignored, then I will not like myself very much. My not liking myself very much leads to a poor M but on a different path. If our M becomes great and then I later try to re-assurt this boundary, I will be seen as controlling no matter what. Therefore, there really is no choice, thanks to the MC.

On an aside, I am also at a point of withdrawing further, as I first wrote. My ring is already off and I cannot see my rushing to put it back on at this point.

Either way, my W is stubborn and this is one of the traits I liked about her in the beginning, but unfortunately I feel this trait will now help with our demise. If I make a stand, I pretty much know the results. If I allow my boundaries to be compromised, I will feel trampled on forever. Neither of the two results are favorable for me and I make up 50% of this M (atleast I thought I did). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, then, what can we do to help? My advice would be to regroup and figure out a way to reassert this boundary not only with your W but with your MC. I don’t think either one of them has any idea of the magnitude of your discomfort. Part of the issue is that you’ve been spending your energy arguing whether it’s right/wrong or you’re insecure/secure or reasonable/unreasonable which almost never works.

Let me say this clearly. You are not Not NOT likely to convince your W that you’re right and she’s wrong about this issue. And, here’s why. It’s a matter of opinion. She has a different one. It doesn’t HAVE to be the end of the world, but as long as you’re arguing that she’s doing something WRONG you’re shouting down an empty well at midnight. Stop arguing. Stop expecting her to change her mind. You admit she’s stubborn. But, that doesn’t mean that she won’t respond to a RESPECTFUL REQUEST to stop. It DOES mean that it’s likely that she’s going to possibly not keep her agreement as tightly as you want. It MIGHT mean that she never takes this issue as “seriously” as you do. I don’t think it has to be ‘all or nothing.’

Can you afford to give even a little bit on this issue? By give, I mean learn to respect her opinion as true and valid for HER. That also means have a little tolerance on the issue and don’t be so quick to punish her by telling her she’s wrong. You can remind her of agreements in a more positive non-guilt inducing manner in the future.

*sighs*

Once again it comes down to building agreement. You build agreements with respect and thoughtful requests. Right now what you’re doing is flinging DJ’s and SD’s in her direction to try to get her to agree to your position. What you’re doing isn’t likely to work. It’s NOT the only way to handle this situation. It is however A way to handle it. You CAN, obviously, decide to either capitulate, or continue to assert your boundary in a LBing way. I just don’t recommend that you do.

What can we do to help?

Mys

Hey guys,

I just do not know what to do. I am sick over the whole thing and starting to withdraw from the M. I cannot seem to really help myself. I get mad, but do not care to get into an argument or even a discussion anymore. It is one thing for me to learn all of the MB principles and try to live by them, but it is completely another when I have not felt heard for years and still, after really trying, am not feeling heard. My W always complains that I am making her pay for people in my past, well she is certainly making me pay for my past with her, after I have made several genuine efforts to change. She used to try to climb mountains to try and improve our M, now she is negative and not allowing improvement. I feel beaten and a fool and am tired of it all. I still do not have my ring on and I think she may have finally noticed, but has not said anything.

Last night I got home and took my S (4 years old) to a driving range to hit some golf balls. It was his first time ever and it was great. He really did a good job! I am so proud of him. When I got home I had thought my W had a "meeting" to go to, but it was moved to next week. So she was trying to make a nice meal for me. She said it would be ready in an hour and I said I was taking our S golfing. She said, "OK." You see usually I would ask her to come with, but I just did not want anything to do with her at that time because I am hurt. I had to take her car because I did not have a car seat in mine. When I got back she had cleaned the inside of my car. This was nice, but now I do not understand why she was trying to be so nice to me, when after 5 months of my realizing the negative things I have done, and actively worked towards improving them, she was not this nice to me. Now all of a sudden, I am not treating her as nice as I usually do and she has reacted by doing nice things. I hate not acting nice towards my W, but now I cannot help it. I feel so drained. Last night we go to bed and I did not say good night or anything. She did not either. When I left for work this morning, I went up to her in bed to give her the usual kiss and hug goodbye. Her back was to me and she did not even turn around. I kissed her head and she said, "have a nice day." I said, "you too." Then I left.

Last night at dinner, she mentions that she was on her emails and the friend she wrote to over the weekend sent her another email. She said, "he has invited us to his wedding on the 24th of September." She said she did not know if she wanted to go or not because of how I would be around her friends. She asked, "Are you going to have a problem if someone comes up to me that I have not seen in a while and gives me a hug?" I said, "You had these concerns at the last wedding we went to and I did not do anything like this. Other than a misinterpretation of a look from me, there were not any issues. Are you going to be able to remember to include me in conversations and make me feel welcome and included?" She said, "I always do." This is not true or I would not feel the way I do. So we will see. Half of me just wants to tell her to go on her own. The other half welcomes the chance to be there around her friends to show her I can act respectful, while at the same time showing my presences as her husband. But I do not know, I am so confused. I also did not bother to ask if she signed "love" to any emails. You can believe I was curious, but now, I am at a bad place, a "do not even care anymore" place.

Now to your posts:

CTJ -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "I feel that if he wants to give up our M over me signing a stupid word to guys then what kind of M do we really have?"
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That may be, and your analogy could be used on any situation. For example, if I had someone on the side, I could wrongly rationalize that if she thinks it is worth throwing our M away for an indescression, than what kind of M did we have anyway. While the entire time I would be in the wrong. Just because this can be turned around to say the other may feel the same way, does not mean their actions that cause hurt are allowable. The MB principles clearly state in this exact situation, that the proper response would be for my W to not sign "love" on her emails. Rationalized any other way is completely pointless since I am the one getting hurt. She may feel she is hurt because she feels I am trying to "control" her. I am not trying to "control" her. I certainly am trying to "control" our M towards a more happy and rewarding M for the BOTH of us.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I agree that it is a dangerous activity. What I don't get is why you would plan to react to it in the same was as if she was actually having the affair. It sounds almost like a kind of preemptive strike mentality, to me.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is nothing wrong with boundaries protecting me. This is what they are for. If you see this as a pre-emptive strike than fine. I would like to add that in the beginning of this post, I describe (in my first several posts) how I found my W having written an email to an ex-boyfriend, signed "love" and tried to delete it after she sent it. It was about her meeting up with him when she drove into town. I raised an issue with it. Told her that I read her emails. Sure she was upset that I had read her emails, but I think it made her re-evaluate what she was doing. She ended up not having contact with this person (I do know this). Therefore, to this day, I feel that my pre-emptive actions on this help to save our M from what could have easily become the beginning of the end. So you will not sell me on the pre-emptive strike being bad.

Myschae -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, then, what can we do to help? My advice would be to regroup and figure out a way to reassert this boundary not only with your W but with your MC. I don’t think either one of them has any idea of the magnitude of your discomfort. Part of the issue is that you’ve been spending your energy arguing whether it’s right/wrong or you’re insecure/secure or reasonable/unreasonable which almost never works. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not know what to do anymore. Who would have thought that if you are being very hurt by your spouse and you explained to them that you were seriously injured by something that they did, that they would not stop. Who would have thought that an MC would not understand this either. I truly feel lost, and ignored and helpless. I do not know what to do anymore, other than withdraw and protect myself from the future pains coming do to her carelessness of my feelings.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Let me say this clearly. You are not Not NOT likely to convince your W that you’re right and she’s wrong about this issue. And, here’s why. It’s a matter of opinion. She has a different one. It doesn’t HAVE to be the end of the world, but as long as you’re arguing that she’s doing something WRONG you’re shouting down an empty well at midnight. Stop arguing. Stop expecting her to change her mind. You admit she’s stubborn. But, that doesn’t mean that she won’t respond to a RESPECTFUL REQUEST to stop. It DOES mean that it’s likely that she’s going to possibly not keep her agreement as tightly as you want. It MIGHT mean that she never takes this issue as “seriously” as you do. I don’t think it has to be ‘all or nothing.’
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand this all goes back to what you have been trying to teach me: I cannot convince her that my POV is right and hers is wrong. However, she should be able to understand and accept that her actions based upon her POV hurt me greatly. This fact on its own should make her want to stop. IT would me, even if I felt her original thought process was flawed or wrong based on old insecurities or not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Can you afford to give even a little bit on this issue? By give, I mean learn to respect her opinion as true and valid for HER. That also means have a little tolerance on the issue and don’t be so quick to punish her by telling her she’s wrong. You can remind her of agreements in a more positive non-guilt inducing manner in the future. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I had tried that on Sunday. I do see her point but her point is that it is a meaningless word and does not matter. Well, she knows how I feel and how it hurts me, yet continues to do it. Therefore, I can only feel that she feels my being hurt is less important than something she feels is "a meaningless word and does not matter." Do you see how this exponentially increases the hurt? I understand she is hypersensitive to my having been controlling in the past, but killing me over it is not the solution.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Once again it comes down to building agreement. You build agreements with respect and thoughtful requests. Right now what you’re doing is flinging DJ’s and SD’s in her direction to try to get her to agree to your position. What you’re doing isn’t likely to work. It’s NOT the only way to handle this situation. It is however A way to handle it. You CAN, obviously, decide to either capitulate, or continue to assert your boundary in a LBing way. I just don’t recommend that you do.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have tried to build agreement. What do you think about our last agreement. You know, the one where she agreed to come back together on Monday with ideas for talking to the MC. The one she did not give any more thought to when I brought it back up before the MC to get her opinions. The one she did not care about in the end. I feel she has treated this last agreement just like the one we had about her emails. She does it only when it suits her, with no regard for me. Her agreement is starting to have little value for me. What do you think about this?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What can we do to help?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not know if anyone can help. You guys had me on such a high because I had thought we were making good progress. Now I feel like it was all a sham from my W's POV. I feel she has held no value in our M or improving it based upon where we currently are. I have chosen an appropriate screen name because I am once again extremely lost.

I do not know if from my posts yesterday and this one, anyone is able to wade through and with a broader view point, put this all into a proper perspective or not, but, I am too close to the situation to understand it all.

Thanks,

EL

<small>[ September 08, 2004, 09:40 AM: Message edited by: Extremely Lost ]</small>

Extremely Lost

Good Morning!

Are you ready to go around the mulberry bush again this morning? Good, I knew you would be.

I haven’t even gotten to your homework assignment yet, but let’s continue to hash out this “love” boundary issue first. The other thing is important too, but it’s easier on my feeble mind to do one thing at a time.

I think it is very important that you bring this issue up for discussion again – not only with your wife, but with your MC. This is a boundary issue for you. It has to be communicated. However, it makes a HUGE difference HOW it’s communicated!

I’ve stated earlier that most of the problem in communicating this issue is that you and your W and your MC, for that matter, seem to get locked into weak-position arguments where you’re sitting around discussing who’s opinion is the right one. That is a very non-productive way of reaching agreement. For one thing, it’s not likely that either of the 3 of you are going to actually change your opinion based on someone else’s opinion or the introduction of “data” into the conversation.

Disagreement on issues does not necessarily mean that it’s impossible to build an agreement on actions. It really doesn’t take a “meeting of the minds” to figure out what to do about a particular scenario.

There are two paths that you can take with this issue. One is more along the lines of a boundary statement and the other is to POJA the issue. I do realize that you had an agreement prior to this incident. But, I am guessing, based on her statements, that your W was not in enthusiastic agreement.

So, if you want to take the boundary path, you’re not trying to build agreement. Instead, the focus is on clearly communicating your boundary.


I am not willing to remain in a marriage in which my spouse signs “love” in correspondence to persons who are not relatives.


There are, of course, a number of problems with taking that path. One, in order to be a good boundary it has to be extremely clear and specific – that means no including “other disrespectful acts” in it unless they are spelled out. Think.. contract language clarity. Anything that’s left open to interpretation will be. Second, it doesn’t allow for much flexibility. Are you going to end the marriage the very next time it happens? It’s something to think about.

The second path is to POJA the issue. That is going to have to start with building agreement. Both of you should be committed to finding a solution that you can be enthusiastic about. That means that your premise: “She should stop doing it because it hurts me.” with no other agreement does not fill that requirement. There are lots of things she might stop doing unenthusiastically that would build resentment in HER. So, the two of you would have to sit down and figure out some way to make this work well for both of you.

That will require the most patience and investment up front. Specifically, it will require a whole different communication pattern that I’m not entirely sure either of you is ready for quite yet.

Ah, I see you’ve posted.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I just do not know what to do. I am sick over the whole thing and starting to withdraw from the M. I cannot seem to really help myself. I get mad, but do not care to get into an argument or even a discussion anymore. It is one thing for me to learn all of the MB principles and try to live by them, but it is completely another when I have not felt heard for years and still, after really trying, am not feeling heard. My W always complains that I am making her pay for people in my past, well she is certainly making me pay for my past with her, after I have made several genuine efforts to change. She used to try to climb mountains to try and improve our M, now she is negative and not allowing improvement. I feel beaten and a fool and am tired of it all. I still do not have my ring on and I think she may have finally noticed, but has not said anything. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, what do you WANT to do? Are you ready to give up or are you still in there?

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. You’re not going to get anywhere with one foot in and one foot out. Figure out what you’re going to do and do it. If you’re done with the marriage then let your wife know and make your plans to move on. If you’re not done with your marriage than shelving the problems in the hopes that they will vanish is not likely to get you anywhere very quickly.

Taking off your ring and withdrawing from the marriage is punitive and unlikely to help. Is that really what you want to do? If your wife refused to wear her ring, what conclusions would YOU draw? It’s unlikely that she’s going to draw the conclusion that fits how you are truly feeling.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The MB principles clearly state in this exact situation, that the proper response would be for my W to not sign "love" on her emails. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">True, but the POJA states that an agreement must be reached that both parties are enthusiastic about. So, while she should stop until an agreement is reached, it is then IMPERATIVE than an ENTHUSIASTIC agreement be reached. I think it is clear that she was not enthusiastic about your last agreement. Just saying “I don’t like you doing <x>” and expecting your spouse to stop without reaching an enthusiastic agreement violates the POJA just as much as her continuing to do the action.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do not know what to do anymore. Who would have thought that if you are being very hurt by your spouse and you explained to them that you were seriously injured by something that they did, that they would not stop. Who would have thought that an MC would not understand this either. I truly feel lost, and ignored and helpless. I do not know what to do anymore, other than withdraw and protect myself from the future pains coming do to her carelessness of my feelings. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*sighs*

I am sorry about that. I honestly don’t know why or what happened in the MC session that your counselor did not pick up on how much this bothers you. I somehow doubt that either the MC or your wife is enthusiastic about hurting your feelings. I DO think that they don’t agree with your assessment of the danger of the situation and very likely don’t understand the magnitude of your discomfort. Part of the problem with arguing right/wrong, inappropriate/appropriate, and good/bad is that it steals the focus away from the true issue which really IS HOW YOU FEEL about the situation.

So, here is how you contributed to the situation. When they tried to relate to your feelings “insecurity” you argued that away by saying “But it’s WRONG, it’s INAPPROPRIATE.. etc.”

Is it actually untrue that it makes you feel insecure? And, what if it does? Is being insecure a horrible thing? Does it make you… what…human? Or, if insecurity is not the closest emotion, what is? “Wrong” is not an emotion and neither is “Inappropriate” those are judgments. “Hurt” might apply, “angry” might apply.. find a feeling word to replace insecurity with if that particular word bothers you.

My point is that you argued AWAY from your feelings the whole time and now you’re hurt because they aren’t taking your feelings into account. This is not ALL your fault but you did contribute to the situation. I’m giving you some ideas on HOW you contributed. If you want them to take your FEELINGS into account then express your FEELINGS rather than your OPINIONS ON ACTIONS.

Feelings are expressed as…

I feel angry…
I feel sad..
I feel scared..
I feel insecure..
I feel hopeless..

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I understand this all goes back to what you have been trying to teach me: I cannot convince her that my POV is right and hers is wrong. However, she should be able to understand and accept that her actions based upon her POV hurt me greatly. This fact on its own should make her want to stop. IT would me, even if I felt her original thought process was flawed or wrong based on old insecurities or not. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think she could understand that her actions hurt you but you didn’t invest your time in talking about your hurts. From what you described, you invested your time in talking about right/wrong and inappropriate/appropriate. When she tried to bring it to a feeling level, you took umbrage with the feeling she assigned to you. If you wanted to go to that level, then say “Well, as a matter of fact, I Do feel a bit insecure about our relationship when you sign “love” to other men. It really bothers me because then our relationship doesn’t feel as special and unique to me as I’d like it to.” This is much different than “I’m not insecure.. it’s just INAPPROPRIATE behavior.. it’s WRONG.”

Do you see the difference?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have tried to build agreement. What do you think about our last agreement. You know, the one where she agreed to come back together on Monday with ideas for talking to the MC. The one she did not give any more thought to when I brought it back up before the MC to get her opinions. The one she did not care about in the end. I feel she has treated this last agreement just like the one we had about her emails. She does it only when it suits her, with no regard for me. Her agreement is starting to have little value for me. What do you think about this? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think she was distracted by a lot of things. So were you.

Assigning “caring” to her about these agreements is a disrespectful judgment.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do not know if anyone can help. You guys had me on such a high because I had thought we were making good progress. Now I feel like it was all a sham from my W's POV. I feel she has held no value in our M or improving it based upon where we currently are. I have chosen an appropriate screen name because I am once again extremely lost. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*hugs* I am sorry you’re feeling so down. I don’t think this is unrecoverable but then again I don’t know how you really feel about everything. I’m not going to tell you everything is or will be all right because how the heck can I know? But, I think there is hope there if you want to reach out for it. If you’re too tired or you’re just feeling done, then I can respect that, as well. Perhaps a little withdrawing to decide what you want to do about the situation (get in there and get to it or get out of it) is not a terrible idea.

We’ll be around when you’re ready to decide. I don’t imagine anyone can really help you with that decision; it has to come from deep within you.

Mys

Extremely Lost, No offense, and I don't mean to sound harsh, but............

back on page 29 Baba2 posted an excellent 14 point reply that, to me at least, hit the nail right on the head. In my mind, you are definately on this track.

With all the other relationships in your life do you normally analyze and dissect every little thing that is said to you and take offense in every percieved slight? You have given your wife all of the power in the relationship. So if you want to change, then change. Do things for yourself, activities that will give you pleasure, spark your interests, build your sense of satisfaction and achievement, instead of obsessing over the state of the marriage all of the time. Geesh, a couple of hours alone with the son hitting golf balls and she cleans your car? Dude, what would happen if you went off with him on a lark for the weekend?

I agree with you that the intercepted rendezvous with the old boyfriend was a good proactive strike on your part. But with all the power your wife is gonna do what she is gonna do. And the end of the day, you have to accept and trust her or not and move on even if she pushes your boundries. After all wouldn't you rather have her choose you? Snooping through e-mails, etc. is flat out controlling and wrong. Let her show them to you. She has not hid anything.

You have no leverage, so why not make a pact with yourself to buck it up and not take ANYTHING personally that she says for a while. Let it all roll off, after all she is just testing to see if you have really changed and anything she says or does can set you off into a downward spiral. Stop coming at her for SF and let it come to you. She will only respond to real change when you take the spotlight off of her.

Good luck. I think you situation is very resolvable and the good news is that you can make it happen.

Whew!

Myschae, you let me off the hook again. I just deleted about 200 lines of post, because you said it all much better.

EL...

I really think you need to focus on what you want. It's gut check time. As managing2 has mentioned, you are in a position to take control. Are you willing to push through the pain, for now, to hit the marriage that could be on the side. (Your W's actions suggest to me that she is.) Or, is the pain too much, and it's time to call it quits. (Which, BTW, is a pretty darn painful thing itself, they tell me.)

I've been where you are. I've been 'round and 'round on this argument with myself and my W. I know what it feels liek to be hurt becouse your spouse is doing things that are clearly inappropriate and potentially destructive to the marriage.

I don't know how many times I've had this argument with my W.

But I always came out the loser. Why?

Because I was so caught up in my own *hurt* and my own *fear* and my own *pain* that I lashed back out at my wife. Instead of listening to her, understanding her, and respecting her, I was too busy being wounded.

It won when I decided to trust her, period. I won, when I decided that instead of trying to push her to no longer talk to X, I would just tell her:

"This hurts me extremely. But it is insulting to tell you that you don't know what you can and can't handle. I understand your POV, and I realize that by trying to force you to change, I am hurting us and not helping me. You can keep up contact, but since it still hurts me, I don't want to know about it."

That was our negotiation and compromise. I don't check her email. She doesn't mention his name. I chose to trust her. But we worked out a situation where I wasn't being consistently hurt.


We're now working our way back from that. It's your turn.

I hope you make a go of things. I think your wife is clearly willing from her actions to love you. She has been trying, from what you are describing. I think that if you choose to gut through it and work to a negotiation, you can make this work.

Good Morning Myschae,

I am sorry for the roller coaster of my emotions. I just feel really defeated and beaten because I feel like I have worked my tail off (admittedly making mistakes along the way) and it does not seem like it has gotten me too far.

You are right, it does hurt me very much to have my W write "love." It is not fair for me to be withdrawn from my W. It is not fair for me to deliberately not be nice around my W. I should make changes to this and make them now. I will call my W today just to see how she is doing. The thing I do not get is that when I tell her I am hurt, or that I need something from her (even without LBing or DJing, she is reluctant to give or just flat refuses); but, when I act the way I am now, she seems to react in an almost positive manner. The ironic thing is that all the advice says that if you are doing something that is working, stick with it. Is this a message that I should remain how I have been for the last couple of days?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I haven’t even gotten to your homework assignment yet, but let’s continue to hash out this “love” boundary issue first. The other thing is important too, but it’s easier on my feeble mind to do one thing at a time.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Understood.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think it is very important that you bring this issue up for discussion again – not only with your wife, but with your MC. This is a boundary issue for you. It has to be communicated. However, it makes a HUGE difference HOW it’s communicated!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Agreed. I am going to bring this up tonight. My problem is that I will once again tell my W that her signing "love" causes me great pain and difficulty. Some of it does extend to my own insecurities, and some of it is just plain hurtful based on the value of the meaning of "love" to me. I will also explain that I understand that to her the word is almost meaningless and that she feels it is not a big deal to sign "love." I will als say that I can understand how she feels my request for her to stop doing this can be taken as an attempt by me to be controling of her, and in a philisophical way she is right. I will also say, that that it really is a boundary issue with me that causes me to feel violated and our relationship devalued and that it is important for me to let her know my true feelings on this one particular example. This is different to me than asking her questions about where she has been or other things I have done that were truly more controlling in the past. I will also say that I feel better now that I have expressed my feelings clearly to her and that it is still up to her as to what she does with this information and how she wants to make me feel in the future. I want to be open with her because I do not want her to hide her emails that she decides to sign "love" to because to me this is another step closer to deciet and disaster in our M.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> That will require the most patience and investment up front. Specifically, it will require a whole different communication pattern that I’m not entirely sure either of you is ready for quite yet.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hopefully what I wrote above will suffice. If she still chooses to knowingly hurt me, then I know where I stand. I do not feel what I wrote is manipulative and offers her the choice.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. You’re not going to get anywhere with one foot in and one foot out. Figure out what you’re going to do and do it. If you’re done with the marriage then let your wife know and make your plans to move on. If you’re not done with your marriage than shelving the problems in the hopes that they will vanish is not likely to get you anywhere very quickly.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was so into it with both feet. I just feel like I keep getting slapped. I know she is capable of mistakes as well and that I should over look them, but it is very difficult, when she will not see her mistakes as what they are - mistakes. She is still very much in the "has to be right" mode, which completely invalidates my feelings at times. At some point, she should be jumping on the band wagon and participating more in our M. I was excited last week because we had reached an agreement and I thought this was a sign of a turning point. I feel stupid now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Taking off your ring and withdrawing from the marriage is punitive and unlikely to help. Is that really what you want to do? If your wife refused to wear her ring, what conclusions would YOU draw? It’s unlikely that she’s going to draw the conclusion that fits how you are truly feeling. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She takes her ring off all the time to do landscaping or whatever. Often she will forget to put it on for days. This really bothered me. Therefore, I mentioned it a couple of times. The first few times I would try and be cute by taking her ring and bringing it to her and asking her to marry me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> After this happening a lot, I just stopped letting her know it bothered me because she saw it as another form of "control." She does not have the same emotional sentiments that I live with. Another example is that I through a rock into a lake and my ring slipped off and into the lake. I immediately went in after it. I was lucky to find it. As I showed my W that I found my ring, she says, "It would be a bigger deal to you than to me if you would have lost it." This shows you that she cares differently about these things than I do. It also shows you she understands just how dearly I do care about these things. Maybe it is a good passive way to send her a message. I know, you are going to say that I am leaving her blanks to fill, but I think they are quite obvious blanks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am sorry about that. I honestly don’t know why or what happened in the MC session that your counselor did not pick up on how much this bothers you. I somehow doubt that either the MC or your wife is enthusiastic about hurting your feelings. I DO think that they don’t agree with your assessment of the danger of the situation and very likely don’t understand the magnitude of your discomfort. Part of the problem with arguing right/wrong, inappropriate/appropriate, and good/bad is that it steals the focus away from the true issue which really IS HOW YOU FEEL about the situation.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree and am still in shock and baffled over the MC not getting it and not protecting both of us with her suggestion. I do not know how to feel or what to do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think she could understand that her actions hurt you but you didn’t invest your time in talking about your hurts. From what you described, you invested your time in talking about right/wrong and inappropriate/appropriate. When she tried to bring it to a feeling level, you took umbrage with the feeling she assigned to you. If you wanted to go to that level, then say “Well, as a matter of fact, I Do feel a bit insecure about our relationship when you sign “love” to other men. It really bothers me because then our relationship doesn’t feel as special and unique to me as I’d like it to.” This is much different than “I’m not insecure.. it’s just INAPPROPRIATE behavior.. it’s WRONG.”
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do see the difference, but I felt I was expressing the same meaning. I guess I was not. Maybe what I wrote above would help her understand.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think she was distracted by a lot of things. So were you.

Assigning “caring” to her about these agreements is a disrespectful judgment. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see your point, I think I said before this, that I was unsure if she would actually take any time and come up with anything. I had my doubts because I know her and how she has reacted in the past. Your statement is offering her the benefit of the doubt. My statements are saying that my giving her this chance to come up with her thoughts, was already giving her the benefit of the doubt because she did not do this before. Now that she has not done it again, it is extremely difficult to offer another benefit of the doubt.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> *hugs* I am sorry you’re feeling so down. I don’t think this is unrecoverable but then again I don’t know how you really feel about everything. I’m not going to tell you everything is or will be all right because how the heck can I know? But, I think there is hope there if you want to reach out for it. If you’re too tired or you’re just feeling done, then I can respect that, as well. Perhaps a little withdrawing to decide what you want to do about the situation (get in there and get to it or get out of it) is not a terrible idea. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is the problem. I cannot tell anymore if I am just beating my head against the wall or if there is actually hope. Therefore, I am currently incapable of figuring this out. This is why I try to write everything down as accurately as possible, because I need help figuring it out. Obviously, I am not getting the help from the MC or my W to figure this out. I mean, if she were to come to me and say, "Honey, I know we are in a tough spot right now and it is important for me to let you know that I love you and I want our M to work." This would send me over the moon. But, through all of the books I have ordered/read, surveys, websites, doctors, personal efforts etc.. Not once is she acknowledgine that our M has problems. It is always, I have the problem.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We’ll be around when you’re ready to decide. I don’t imagine anyone can really help you with that decision; it has to come from deep within you.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know I want this M if we could make it work out, but, I do not know if my W desires the M. Her words, when I ask (never volunteered), say yes, but 99% of her actions say "H*** No!" My W is a very independent and stubborn Woman. She would not stay married to me for money and protection etc.. She would leave. So this is the only thing that leaves me to believe that she may be willing to fix our M.


Managing2 -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> With all the other relationships in your life do you normally analyze and dissect every little thing that is said to you and take offense in every percieved slight? You have given your wife all of the power in the relationship. So if you want to change, then change. Do things for yourself, activities that will give you pleasure, spark your interests, build your sense of satisfaction and achievement, instead of obsessing over the state of the marriage all of the time. Geesh, a couple of hours alone with the son hitting golf balls and she cleans your car? Dude, what would happen if you went off with him on a lark for the weekend?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have been trying to do independent things out of hurt. However, this directly conflicts with MB, which says doing as much as you can together is the way to go. By the way, am I the only one who thinks it is bizzare that my W does something nice for me only when I treat her coldly, like I am finally fed up?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I agree with you that the intercepted rendezvous with the old boyfriend was a good proactive strike on your part. But with all the power your wife is gonna do what she is gonna do. And the end of the day, you have to accept and trust her or not and move on even if she pushes your boundries. After all wouldn't you rather have her choose you? Snooping through e-mails, etc. is flat out controlling and wrong. Let her show them to you. She has not hid anything.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You have no leverage, so why not make a pact with yourself to buck it up and not take ANYTHING personally that she says for a while. Let it all roll off, after all she is just testing to see if you have really changed and anything she says or does can set you off into a downward spiral. Stop coming at her for SF and let it come to you. She will only respond to real change when you take the spotlight off of her.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do not forget that I did take the spotlight off her for an entire year and this got me no where fast. I waited for a year for her to offer even cuddling. I got nothing. I was ready to leave after this and it just so happend I found MB in April.

CTJ -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I really think you need to focus on what you want. It's gut check time. As managing2 has mentioned, you are in a position to take control. Are you willing to push through the pain, for now, to hit the marriage that could be on the side. (Your W's actions suggest to me that she is.) Or, is the pain too much, and it's time to call it quits. (Which, BTW, is a pretty darn painful thing itself, they tell me.)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have put up with tons of pain already. This does not mean I am not willing to endure if I could see the light at the end of the tunnel, but I just do not see it. I reread what I wrote because I do not understand where you are seeing this hope. Believe me I am looking at this with rose colored glasses and desperately want to see it, but I can not. As an aside, this is my second M so I can tell you leaving is very painful. The only gracious thing about it is that that pain is finite. You do know it will subside, or atleast shrink to a livable ulcer. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Because I was so caught up in my own *hurt* and my own *fear* and my own *pain* that I lashed back out at my wife. Instead of listening to her, understanding her, and respecting her, I was too busy being wounded. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But what about her listening to you and your hurt and showing you (the person she is suppose to love and cherish the most in this World) that she cares greatly for your pain and does not wish for you to be in pain at any cost. This is how I feel towards my W. I would die for her if I knew it would stop her from being in severs pain. This is the difference, I hold way more value on M and our R than I think she does. Maybe she does in her own way, but it certainly is not a way that is conducive to my being able to see it or better yet, understand it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It won when I decided to trust her, period. I won, when I decided that instead of trying to push her to no longer talk to X, I would just tell her:

"This hurts me extremely. But it is insulting to tell you that you don't know what you can and can't handle. I understand your POV, and I realize that by trying to force you to change, I am hurting us and not helping me. You can keep up contact, but since it still hurts me, I don't want to know about it."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have a hard time agreeing to secrecy, especially with what happened with regards to her trying to hide an email to an ex-bf about meeting up with him 5 months ago. I know she was not having an EA yet, but with the state of our M it was worth anything to avoid the situation entirely.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> That was our negotiation and compromise. I don't check her email. She doesn't mention his name. I chose to trust her. But we worked out a situation where I wasn't being consistently hurt.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You chose a certain type of trust and this is admirable. The problem for me is that part of my trusting her has to include no secret contact with guys as well. This is just as big of a problem for me as her signing "love." Maybe I am the one with the problem here. Maybe my ideas of a healthy relationship are skewed with societies norm. I do not know, but I know I agree with Baba2 that this contact with the opposite sex is inappropriate and should not be continued - PERIOD. Even MB agrees with me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I hope you make a go of things. I think your wife is clearly willing from her actions to love you. She has been trying, from what you are describing. I think that if you choose to gut through it and work to a negotiation, you can make this work.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, please point out why you feel my W is "clearly willing" because I am at a total loss for seeing this.

Thanks to you all for responding. Do not worry about being too harsh with me. I need this sometimes. I do think I am clear and concise on my feelings and boundaries and I have remained consistent. I agree that some of my past behavior was wrong and unfair to my W and I am completely willing to acknowledge this, validate her past hurts from my behavior, learn knew behaviors and move on improving our M; but, as you can see, there are some beliefs I have that are bigger than my M that I feel I could not live in my M and hold my head up if I allow these beliefs to be disregarded. I truly do want my M to succeed and be wonderful for the both of us. I am just loosing hope because I do not see how my W has shown much willingness to work on things, other than still living with me. In fact, when asked if she was willing to fix our M she said to me, "Well, I'm still here aren't I!" Very encouragin don't you think?

Thanks to you all,

EL

Extremely Lost

Real quick cause I am walking out the door.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Agreed. I am going to bring this up tonight. My problem is that I will once again tell my W that her signing "love" causes me great pain and difficulty. Some of it does extend to my own insecurities, </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This part is good.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Agreed. I am going to bring this up tonight. My problem is that I will once again tell my W that her signing "love" causes me great pain and difficulty. Some of it does extend to my own insecurities, and some of it is just plain hurtful based on the value of the meaning of "love" to me. I will also explain that I understand that to her the word is almost meaningless and that she feels it is not a big deal to sign "love." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This part is itching for a fight. If you use those words, you will shut down any hope of communication you have going. Telling someone that “To you, the word love is almost meaningless” is the conversational equivalent of smacking her in the face with a leather glove and challenging her to a duel. Don’t do it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I will als say that I can understand how she feels my request for her to stop doing this can be taken as an attempt by me to be controling of her, and in a philisophical way she is right. I will also say, that that it really is a boundary issue with me that causes me to feel violated and our relationship devalued and that it is important for me to let her know my true feelings on this one particular example. This is different to me than asking her questions about where she has been or other things I have done that were truly more controlling in the past. I will also say that I feel better now that I have expressed my feelings clearly to her and that it is still up to her as to what she does with this information and how she wants to make me feel in the future. I want to be open with her because I do not want her to hide her emails that she decides to sign "love" to because to me this is another step closer to deciet and disaster in our M. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is once again detracting from the REAL issue.

The message that you want to communicate to your wife is “OUCH THIS HURTS ME!!!”

Stop explaining to her how she feels. Stop explaining about how this is or isn’t controlling or is or isn’t right. Simply tell your wife that it makes you feel insecure about the relationship. Tell her it BOTHERS YOU. Tell her that it makes you feel less special than you other wise could. Then ask nicely if she would be willing to make an effort on your behalf. THEN discuss what should happen if she forgets about it. How should that be handled? Is it realistic for you to expect her never to forget?

I’ll be back in a bit..

Mys

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But what about her listening to you and your hurt and showing you (the person she is suppose to love and cherish the most in this World) that she cares greatly for your pain and does not wish for you to be in pain at any cost. This is how I feel towards my W. I would die for her if I knew it would stop her from being in severs pain. This is the difference, I hold way more value on M and our R than I think she does. Maybe she does in her own way, but it certainly is not a way that is conducive to my being able to see it or better yet, understand it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I totally understand. I felt the same way. I still would die for her in that case. My W? She wouldn't die for me. She would do everything practical in the book.

Keep in mind that with previous controlling (or semi-controlling) behaviour we both managed to build up an innate resistance in our wives to doing these things.

My W is also stubborn. (She denies it. ;-D ) As am I. It's a good and bad trait. It's what's kept her in this marriage with me. It's what kept her moving to the altar. It's also what makes it so very *painful* for her to have her judgement and ability to keep herself from an EA questioned.

Also, keep in mind, not everyone has as strong of a giver as we do. And our strong giver is not a good thing. Keeping my wife out of pain at any cost is a good way to build resentment. She's not willing to do something that would just build resentment *every time* she signed an email. Doing something you don't believe in, because of another person's POV is also a good way to build resentment.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have a hard time agreeing to secrecy, especially with what happened with regards to her trying to hide an email to an ex-bf about meeting up with him 5 months ago. I know she was not having an EA yet, but with the state of our M it was worth anything to avoid the situation entirely.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Most likely she felt like she was sufficiently safe in this meeting, and she hid it because she didn't "want you on her case" about it.

Again... She had made her judgement on the issue.

Now, neither you, nor I, nor Baba think this is safe or appropriate. But neither you nor I are married to either you or I or Baba. I think both our wives put great store by their ability to make their own judgements in the relationship and have them respected. For my W, it is related to how she was raised. It is a *huge* EN/LB issue. For my W, and I think yours, to not have that respected is one of the most hurtful things you could ever do.

Now, don't get me wrong... Ideally, we would POJA these things. My W and I weren't ready for POJA, then. You aren't ready for POJA now. Someone has to give. I think you're in the better position.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, please point out why you feel my W is "clearly willing" because I am at a total loss for seeing this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In fact, when asked if she was willing to fix our M she said to me, "Well, I'm still here aren't I!" Very encouragin don't you think?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. Incredibly encouraging. Again, we are talking about a strong independent personality here. Probably some of what attracted us to wour W's. When she's done, she'll let you know. She's hanging in there. She's still here. Remember, she's stubborn. That's working to your advantage, here. She's not ready to throw things all away. She's still hanging in there. But actually, she's gone beyond that... Here it is:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So she was trying to make a nice meal for me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When I got back she had cleaned the inside of my car.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She said she did not know if she wanted to go or not because of how I would be around her friends. She asked, "Are you going to have a problem if someone comes up to me that I have not seen in a while and gives me a hug?"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">These are the actions of a woman who is really trying. Unfortunately, you're in such a pain daze right now that she almost got her head taken off.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">said, "I always do." This is not true or I would not feel the way I do. So we will see.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Total DJ. Obviously she feels she does. She is probably very upset that you do not respond appropriately. My W and I often have had similar issues at social occasions.

If you are at all shy, like me, you are at a real disadvantage here. It is probably *very* difficult to include you in conversations. These kinds of gatherings have a large amount of "in" talk. Find some of her friends you like. Get to know them. Encourage those relationships.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This was nice, but now I do not understand why she was trying to be so nice to me, when after 5 months of my realizing the negative things I have done, and actively worked towards improving them, she was not this nice to me. Now all of a sudden, I am not treating her as nice as I usually do and she has reacted by doing nice things.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again... After she was nice, this kind of attitude is a slap in the face. Honestly, why is "why" so important? She's clearly trying to turn things around.

OK guys,

First off, thanks for trying to help me through this.

Myschae -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This part is itching for a fight. If you use those words, you will shut down any hope of communication you have going. Telling someone that “To you, the word love is almost meaningless” is the conversational equivalent of smacking her in the face with a leather glove and challenging her to a duel. Don’t do it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not know if I explained things right here or not, but this actually came out in the MC session. Basically, the MC said, "Mrs. EL does not put the same meaning to the word 'love' as you do. You put a lot more into that word. To her it is a meaningless gesture saying good-bye." My W agreed. This is where I was coming from. I was not trying to pick a fight, but merely to validate my W's POV that was presented in the MC session.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is once again detracting from the REAL issue.

The message that you want to communicate to your wife is “OUCH THIS HURTS ME!!!”

Stop explaining to her how she feels. Stop explaining about how this is or isn’t controlling or is or isn’t right. Simply tell your wife that it makes you feel insecure about the relationship. Tell her it BOTHERS YOU. Tell her that it makes you feel less special than you other wise could. Then ask nicely if she would be willing to make an effort on your behalf. THEN discuss what should happen if she forgets about it. How should that be handled? Is it realistic for you to expect her never to forget?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What you are talking about is actually the first approach I took. I simply said, this hurts me and causes me pain. My W said it is my problem and is caused by my own insecurities and therefore, I needed to get over it. She was dismissive of my pain and boundary. This is why, the example I offered to you included more indepth things that were discussed in the MC session. She is clearly unwilling (especially now with the vote of confidence from the MC) to make an effort on my behalf. She has made it clear that the fact has listened to me say that it bothers me is all the support whe feels she should give.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I totally understand. I felt the same way. I still would die for her in that case. My W? She wouldn't die for me. She would do everything practical in the book.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Same here, and thats a kick in the ..... To me, romantisizing the whole thing, I believe in the whole soul mate and connection thing. I believe that part of true love is being willing to lay your own life down for another. I tell you there is no question when it comes to my S or my W in my mind. I do not understand why it is so bad to expect someone else to feel the same way. Yes, I understand expecting to change someone's POV is not right, but it cannot be all bad expecting someone to share in certain beliefs.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Keep in mind that with previous controlling (or semi-controlling) behaviour we both managed to build up an innate resistance in our wives to doing these things.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand this. However, when the light goes on and I say to her that I understand what she has been telling me for the last four years (this last April), and she knows that some miracle has taken place because I was unable or unwilling to understand these things before, that she would be encouragin and understanding to agree a sort of 'do over' strategy. Wipe the slate clean and move on. I know about her pains I have caused in the past, but equally she has caused me just as many. Therefore, it just makes sense to give my changing (and our changing) a chance.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My W is also stubborn. (She denies it. ;-D ) As am I. It's a good and bad trait. It's what's kept her in this marriage with me. It's what kept her moving to the altar. It's also what makes it so very *painful* for her to have her judgement and ability to keep herself from an EA questioned. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is fine and you shed an interesting idea on things here. The addition to this, however, is that they (our Ws) should have the understanding that it is not our questioning their ability in this situation. It is us and our comfort levels, irrespective of their abilities. It is us not trusting the guys. It is us wanting to protect the one we love. It is so much more than a question of their own ability.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Also, keep in mind, not everyone has as strong of a giver as we do. And our strong giver is not a good thing. Keeping my wife out of pain at any cost is a good way to build resentment. She's not willing to do something that would just build resentment *every time* she signed an email. Doing something you don't believe in, because of another person's POV is also a good way to build resentment. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Funny, I would not have a problem with it or build resentment from it because I would know it was an effort on my part to not hurt my spouse. To me this is ultimate caring and it is kind of chivalris.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Most likely she felt like she was sufficiently safe in this meeting, and she hid it because she didn't "want you on her case" about it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Who knows how she felt? I can't know. However, it is never good to actively hide something from your spouse for fear of their reaction. This is explicitly stated in the MB principles. This exact action and example is condemed.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now, neither you, nor I, nor Baba think this is safe or appropriate. But neither you nor I are married to either you or I or Baba. I think both our wives put great store by their ability to make their own judgements in the relationship and have them respected. For my W, it is related to how she was raised. It is a *huge* EN/LB issue. For my W, and I think yours, to not have that respected is one of the most hurtful things you could ever do.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But with all do respect, they are no longer single and making their 'own' decisions. As MB smartly states "anything a spouse does effects the M no matter how small." As the M is a commitment between two people, it is not right for one to force independent decision making on the other, especially if it is in 'dangerous' marital areas.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now, don't get me wrong... Ideally, we would POJA these things. My W and I weren't ready for POJA, then. You aren't ready for POJA now. Someone has to give. I think you're in the better position.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You can say that again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes. Incredibly encouraging. Again, we are talking about a strong independent personality here. Probably some of what attracted us to wour W's. When she's done, she'll let you know. She's hanging in there. She's still here. Remember, she's stubborn. That's working to your advantage, here. She's not ready to throw things all away. She's still hanging in there. But actually, she's gone beyond that... Here it is:
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I said this being facicious because it was a pretty noncaring and noncommital statement. The fact that she is here can mean one of two things only: 1) you are correct and she is being truthful that she truly does want the M. 2) she is scared of leaving for fear of life style and child and therefore chooses to float along at the same pace.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> These are the actions of a woman who is really trying. Unfortunately, you're in such a pain daze right now that she almost got her head taken off. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can tell you she would not have done these things if my personality had not changed over the last two days. I am colder to her because I am hurt. I am short with her, but am not LBing or DJing because I am hurt. I do not feel like being around her because I am hurt. My actions to being hurt have caused her to be nice to me. Why does it take my different personality to cause this. I do not see her as a champion for the M. I see her as, "Opps, maybe I have went to far, I have never seen him like this before. What can I do to change his personality back." But its not for me its for her. Not for us, but for her. So I ask again, (this is where I am confused), do I continue with my new personality because it is getting good results? According to MB it sort of say, if you find something that works, stick with it. My W has not made dinner in a while. She certainly has not cleaned out my car in a long time (even thought the mess she cleaned up, she made in the car a month ago). So you see, this behavior is about the best behavior I have gotten from her in a while. This is what is so confusing. I truly believe that if I make the transition back to the 'nice' and 'working on the M' husband I have been for the last 5 months, she will walk all over me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Total DJ. Obviously she feels she does. She is probably very upset that you do not respond appropriately. My W and I often have had similar issues at social occasions. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Look, she may feel she does, but she actually does not. This is something the MC actually pointed out to her. My W can never be wrong. NEVER! So of course she is going to say, "I always do." If she wants the proper response from me then damit, she is going to have to be proper. Just because her POV is skewed from reality and I am having to accept a new reality as truly existing in her mind, does not mean I am going to 'feel' ok with her new reality. She also needs to be doing somethings to help me, her and our M to change. I am willing to do the lions share, but, she needs to step up and accept what her actions are doing to the M. It took me four years, she still has not figured it out yet. I am not being too harsh on my W here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Again... After she was nice, this kind of attitude is a slap in the face. Honestly, why is "why" so important? She's clearly trying to turn things around.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, you are right here. She is clearly trying to turn things around at this point. The reason why is so important is because we need to figure out WHY it took me getting to this point and behaving in this way for her to FIGURE out, SHE needed to turn things around. This mechanism in side of her that told her to try and improve the situation is not there, when I actually am improving the situation. It is like she is on auto-pilot and just existing, until I have made it painfully clear that I am on the verge of giving up, based upon my actions.

So I don't know what to do.............

She cannot have free reign to just hurt me at will. There must be some accountability on her end. Her hurting me cannot always be passed through a filter afterwards that says, "well you have to see here POV. In her mind it is perfectly acceptable to hurt you." There must be some limits so that I can start to feel comfortable that I am not going to get hurt.


EL

EL --

Thanks for bearing with me. We're getting there. I'm just going to reemphasize one point, and let things set for Myschae, I think.

The #1 thing to remember for you, right now is:

(insert vocal twang here) You ain't there yet.

You're right in saying that our wives could do better jobs of considering our feelings. You're right that you're taking the short end of the stick in many case. You're right that our wives need to have more joint consideration. My #1 LB is independent action, right now. It didn't get that way for nothing. She and I have had this particular battle (her LB of IA, and mine of DJ) since before we were married. We're still not there yet, but we'll be working on that slowly.

But... You and I are more aware of our side of things than they are of theirs.

There will be a time to address all of this. You ain't there yet.

The good news is, for whatever reason, there has been a small positive change from your wife. You are making an assumption when you say it is because you are cold and remote. Actually, that paragraph struck me as full of DJs. (Assuming the worst.) In any case, there is small progress. Keep up the good work. Address your changes in yourself. Watch for changes in your W, and encourage them appropriately. (Overeager praise is good for dogs, but does not go over well with the W)


I will actually address one more issue, after all. I think you and I have a similar reaction to our past behaviour:

Light bulb goes one: "Crap, I screwed up, I'm sorry. I'll change." And then we wipe our mental state clean as we transition from "Screwing up CTJ" to "Making changes CTJ." And we expect some tolerance, after all, we are working through our issues, and noone changes overnight.

Our W's don't have the same perspective on our "change" as we do. My W, atleast, resolves things more slowly than I do. I've mentioned that I'm over an argument in 3 minutes, if it's resolved, she's stewing for an hour. For better or worse, that's how it is. So, she carries more emotional baggage I do and can't just wipe the slate clean. I don't think she has any idea how to do so. Our epiphanies create black and white dividers in our mind: "before epiphany", "after epihpany." They only have a vague notion of: When he started talking about changing. And then they have a very valid, cynical, wait and see attitude about it. I really don't think she realizes you are as far along as you know you are. It will just plain take time for her to recognize it. Eventually she will look up and say, "I'm glad things are not like they used to be. I like you so much more." But it may take 6 months to a year. I think it took that long with my W.


Okay... So there's my thoughts. Enjoy.

Hey CTJ,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The #1 thing to remember for you, right now is:

(insert vocal twang here) You ain't there yet. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hear that! But I am concerned about the path I take getting 'there.' I do not wish to compromise my values or boundarys as an indirect way to get from point A to point B. I do understand and do try to let a lot of things go that used to set me into spin cycle.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You're right in saying that our wives could do better jobs of considering our feelings. You're right that you're taking the short end of the stick in many case. You're right that our wives need to have more joint consideration. My #1 LB is independent action, right now. It didn't get that way for nothing. She and I have had this particular battle (her LB of IA, and mine of DJ) since before we were married. We're still not there yet, but we'll be working on that slowly. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I saw a commercial on TV over the weekend for Dr. Phil. He was talking to a husband and said, "would you rather be happy or right?" I get what you are saying. It just sucks that one person in the relationship actually has to choose between the two. Yes, I know things aren't fair.....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But... You and I are more aware of our side of things than they are of theirs. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel the same way. I am sure my W would say she feels your W and her are the ones who are more aware.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> There will be a time to address all of this. You ain't there yet.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would hope so, but at this time I do not feel I will get much consideration with regards to my feelings.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The good news is, for whatever reason, there has been a small positive change from your wife. You are making an assumption when you say it is because you are cold and remote. Actually, that paragraph struck me as full of DJs. (Assuming the worst.) In any case, there is small progress. Keep up the good work. Address your changes in yourself. Watch for changes in your W, and encourage them appropriately. (Overeager praise is good for dogs, but does not go over well with the W)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Accept the small positive change was brought on by something that should not have taken place - my acting poorly. If I keep this up, I know her improvement will only be temporary. I have tried to encourage her when she has done things that I felt were positive and nice. All she ever says is "your welcome."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Light bulb goes one: "Crap, I screwed up, I'm sorry. I'll change." And then we wipe our mental state clean as we transition from "Screwing up CTJ" to "Making changes CTJ." And we expect some tolerance, after all, we are working through our issues, and noone changes overnight.

Our W's don't have the same perspective on our "change" as we do. My W, atleast, resolves things more slowly than I do. I've mentioned that I'm over an argument in 3 minutes, if it's resolved, she's stewing for an hour. For better or worse, that's how it is. So, she carries more emotional baggage I do and can't just wipe the slate clean. I don't think she has any idea how to do so. Our epiphanies create black and white dividers in our mind: "before epiphany", "after epihpany." They only have a vague notion of: When he started talking about changing. And then they have a very valid, cynical, wait and see attitude about it. I really don't think she realizes you are as far along as you know you are. It will just plain take time for her to recognize it. Eventually she will look up and say, "I'm glad things are not like they used to be. I like you so much more." But it may take 6 months to a year. I think it took that long with my W.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, this is where I think my W is a little different. During arguments she is the one who feels things are done and resolved, well before I do. This is because she decides and action, without reaching an agreement and then decides the conversation is over. This leaves me feeling completely unresolved 90% of the time. However, she does hold onto things quite a bit longer when it comes to things I have done that bothered her. Sometimes, the first time I hear about it is weeks later.

Take Care,

EL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Accept the small positive change was brought on by something that should not have taken place - my acting poorly. If I keep this up, I know her improvement will only be temporary. I have tried to encourage her when she has done things that I felt were positive and nice. All she ever says is "your welcome."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You've stated that it was brought on by you acting poorly. She hasn't. It could also be something related to the way you acted in the MC. It could be that you acting poorly in the "way" you are acting poorly is showing her that you can be hurt without LB'ing. That may have triggered an epiphany for her.

"You're welcome" is a start. No, she's not loing and saying, "I will do this again, then." But, again... it's a start.

Even if it's temporary, it gives you more time. If she's trying to draw you closer, she's definitely not pulling away. That's more time for you to shine and show her how you can be. More time for her to process that you really have changed.

CTJ,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You've stated that it was brought on by you acting poorly. She hasn't. It could also be something related to the way you acted in the MC. It could be that you acting poorly in the "way" you are acting poorly is showing her that you can be hurt without LB'ing. That may have triggered an epiphany for her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have not thought of it this way. I think MC session was the first time she may have not felt attacked or that it was wasted. Unfortunately it took trampling on a personal boundary for me to do it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "You're welcome" is a start. No, she's not loing and saying, "I will do this again, then." But, again... it's a start. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right. It is a start.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Even if it's temporary, it gives you more time. If she's trying to draw you closer, she's definitely not pulling away. That's more time for you to shine and show her how you can be. More time for her to process that you really have changed. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, I see what you are saying. Maybe.

I called her to see how her day was going. She was pretty receptive on the phone and not as distant as she has normally been on the phone as of late. I did not feel like talking much and kept it short. She said, "I love you." and I replied the same. Usually we say this at the end of our phone calls. I am usually the one who has to initiate it. Yesterday I did not and would not say it. So, there you go, another positive on her part. I just an cautious about being too optimistic. She has made small attempts in the past that were short lived and in the end did not mean very much when it was all said and done.

We'll see,

EL

EL,

I don't find it unusual at all that your wife would treat you better when you became "cold" and treated her tersely.

In her mind, she perceives you as controlling, needy and insecure. If you develop more independence and confidence she will respond even more positively.

MB principles or not, you need to develop a more independent, positive, confident self, regardless of your wife's behaviors. Doesn't mean you have to be an emotionally distant, self absorbed jerk. (Which I doubt you are capable of in your marriage anyway.) She is showing you in every way this is what she NEEDS from you. You keep mentioning what an independent and strong woman she is. Hmmmmm what does that tell you?

Do you think that women like that are attracted men that they percieve to be weak, needy and insecure? At the first sign of strength how did she respond? Lose the battles, win the war, or at least reshuffle the deck and give your self the possibility of a stronger hand with some trump in it.

Find the guy she fell in love with.

managing2,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don't find it unusual at all that your wife would treat you better when you became "cold" and treated her tersely.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It was shocking to me. It kind of makes me think of the old saying that women are more attracted to jerks than nice guys.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In her mind, she perceives you as controlling, needy and insecure. If you develop more independence and confidence she will respond even more positively.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She has told me that acting needy, jealous and insecure are a turn off for her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> MB principles or not, you need to develop a more independent, positive, confident self, regardless of your wife's behaviors. Doesn't mean you have to be an emotionally distant, self absorbed jerk. (Which I doubt you are capable of in your marriage anyway.) She is showing you in every way this is what she NEEDS from you. You keep mentioning what an independent and strong woman she is. Hmmmmm what does that tell you?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand what you are saying here. The only thing is that there is such a thing as her being too independent. Her own past issues currently prevent her from letting me into her heart completely. She has told me that she had to learn at a young age that the only one she can depend upon is herself. This is too much the other way. I need her to let me into her heart and as she needs me to be more independnent and self confident, I need her to be a little needy once in a while. We are currently at the two extremes and need to meet in the middle.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do you think that women like that are attracted men that they percieve to be weak, needy and insecure? At the first sign of strength how did she respond? Lose the battles, win the war, or at least reshuffle the deck and give your self the possibility of a stronger hand with some trump in it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have a point here. But I feel like a jerk by acting how I am. If this is what she wants, I am going to feel like a jerk for the rest of the M.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Find the guy she fell in love with. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can tell you I did not act like a jerk in the beginning. I was more self confident. I did trust her more, because I did not have much to loose in the beginning. I was not vested in the R yet. As I became more vested, I trusted things less because I had more to loose. I know you'll say this is backwards.

Thanks for the good points.

EL

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> do not know if I explained things right here or not, but this actually came out in the MC session. Basically, the MC said, "Mrs. EL does not put the same meaning to the word 'love' as you do. You put a lot more into that word. To her it is a meaningless gesture saying good-bye." My W agreed. This is where I was coming from. I was not trying to pick a fight, but merely to validate my W's POV that was presented in the MC session. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hear what you’re saying. I even understand where it’s coming from. But, if you say “I understand that the word “love” is almost meaningless to you.” to your wife, you are GOING to pick a big, huge, nasty fight. It will close down all communication. It’s not a validating statement.

If you are hell bent on demonstrating understanding, then you need to be very, very careful that you say exactly what you mean. So, don’t generalize. There is a huge difference between I will also explain that I understand that to her the word is almost meaningless and that she feels it is not a big deal to sign "love." and saying I understand that you do not feel it is a big deal to sign “love” at the end of an email.” The part that throws down the gauntlet is I understand that to her the word is almost meaningless. That phrase is very provocative and extends the meaning of what she was saying into an area that is hurtful and likely to offend the dickens out of her.

Can you see why?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Maybe it is a good passive way to send her a message. I know, you are going to say that I am leaving her blanks to fill, but I think they are quite obvious blanks. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And what message are you trying to send? Since she knows how important it is to you, the message she might be receiving is “I am finished with this marriage.” Or “I no longer want to work on this marriage.” Or “My feelings are hurt and I don’t want to say anything about it so I’m hoping you notice and come ask me about it” If that’s the message you want to send, then SAY it. Stop being passive aggressive about it. It’s irritating behavior.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I agree and am still in shock and baffled over the MC not getting it and not protecting both of us with her suggestion. I do not know how to feel or what to do. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*sighs* Yeah. I don’t know what to tell you about the MC. If it were me, I’d be annoyed.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do see the difference, but I felt I was expressing the same meaning. I guess I was not. Maybe what I wrote above would help her understand. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It’s not the same message. The message you wrote above was STILL rife with disrespectful judgments and very provocative statements.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What you are talking about is actually the first approach I took. I simply said, this hurts me and causes me pain. My W said it is my problem and is caused by my own insecurities and therefore, I needed to get over it. She was dismissive of my pain and boundary. This is why, the example I offered to you included more indepth things that were discussed in the MC session. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, ok. Listen to your wife for a moment. She’s saying that she doesn’t have a problem with the behavior and so she’s not feeling enthusiastic about making the change. It is true, that is a dismissive attitude. But that doesn’t mean that you pick up your toys and move to a different sandbox. This is where negotiation comes into play. First you can validate WHAT SHE SAYS without embellishing or taking poetic license with it (hint: stick to her actual words) and then ask to negotiate something you can both be enthusiastic about.

I know you live for my examples so:


You: Honey, I’d like to talk about you signing “love” at the bottom of emails again.

Her: Oh no, not again. *sighs*

You: Please hear me out. It really bothers me. Maybe I am insecure but when you sign your emails with the word “love” it makes me feel less special and I worry about what might happen at some point. I really feel strongly about this and I’d like to work something out if we can so that we can both be comfortable.

Her: I don’t know why it’s such a big deal. It’s no big deal!

You: I understand that you feel that way. Is there anything that would help you be enthusiastic about not doing that?

Her: Fine! I won’t do it anymore. In fact I won’t write emails anymore at all! I’ll delete the account if that’s what it takes.

You: Well, that is one way to solve the problem if you think that is best. I was hoping for something like you signing “take care” or something at the bottom of emails. I don’t want to make this as difficult as possible, just find something that works. Are you really happy with that or is there something else you’d like to try first?

Her: ...


Keep the conversation focused and solution oriented. Build agreement.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She is clearly unwilling (especially now with the vote of confidence from the MC) to make an effort on my behalf. She has made it clear that the fact has listened to me say that it bothers me is all the support whe feels she should give. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But, let’s assume this is true. What’s next? You can go back to the boundary statement.

I am unwilling to stay in a marriage in which my wife signs “love” to the bottom of her correspondence.

But, then, are you really willing to end the marriage the next time it happens? If you are then that is a reasonable statement to make. If you’re not it’s unproductive grandstanding.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Same here, and thats a kick in the ..... To me, romantisizing the whole thing, I believe in the whole soul mate and connection thing. I believe that part of true love is being willing to lay your own life down for another. I tell you there is no question when it comes to my S or my W in my mind. I do not understand why it is so bad to expect someone else to feel the same way. Yes, I understand expecting to change someone's POV is not right, but it cannot be all bad expecting someone to share in certain beliefs. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, then look at it this way. You’re willing to lay down your life for your wife, then why aren’t you willing to accept this one behavior that bothers you? Why not do what you are asking her to do for you and CHANGE your behavior on this subject? Worrying about something is a behavior. I think this is what CTJ was trying to get at. He learned to stop worrying about it. It still isn’t his ideal preference but, in the end, he changed HIS behavior instead of relying upon his wife to change hers. It’s just as valid an option, you know?

Ok, that question was largely rhetorical and designed to get you thinking. I hope it worked. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />


Mys

Mys--

You got me covered as always. Will you move to my town and be my friend? (And my wife's.) '-D You do a great job.

EL --

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She has told me that acting needy, jealous and insecure are a turn off for her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Same thing my W has been telling me for years (3). "You're too *needy*." I think I'm being sensitive and relationally minded. Sensitive in *all* the wrong ways I guess.

You can move to my town and be my friend, too. ;-D I keep thinking maybe your W should email mine so they can get together and plot on how to get us needy guys set straight. ;-D

CTJ

*chuckle*

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You got me covered as always. Will you move to my town and be my friend? (And my wife's.) '-D You do a great job. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure, but you are SO not invited if we go shopping for bathing suits.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You can move to my town and be my friend, too. ;-D I keep thinking maybe your W should email mine so they can get together and plot on how to get us needy guys set straight. ;-D </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bah. Have ‘em email ME. I’ll tell ‘em how to train ya proper. *very evil grin* (Be afraid, be very, very afraid)

Mys

Hey Myschae,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Can you see why? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And what message are you trying to send? Since she knows how important it is to you, the message she might be receiving is “I am finished with this marriage.” Or “I no longer want to work on this marriage.” Or “My feelings are hurt and I don’t want to say anything about it so I’m hoping you notice and come ask me about it” If that’s the message you want to send, then SAY it. Stop being passive aggressive about it. It’s irritating behavior.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What if managing2 is right and my W sees me as more independent and selfconfident with my acting this way? What if I go back to worrying about her feelings and what she would like and she sees me as needy or controling? By the way, the message I am trying to send is that I have had enough, at least for the moment and I am in over load and need to be away from her and her judgments for a little bit.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> *sighs* Yeah. I don’t know what to tell you about the MC. If it were me, I’d be annoyed.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Believe me I am passed annoyed. I am down right unhappy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It’s not the same message. The message you wrote above was STILL rife with disrespectful judgments and very provocative statements. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see what you mean.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, ok. Listen to your wife for a moment. She’s saying that she doesn’t have a problem with the behavior and so she’s not feeling enthusiastic about making the change. It is true, that is a dismissive attitude. But that doesn’t mean that you pick up your toys and move to a different sandbox. This is where negotiation comes into play. First you can validate WHAT SHE SAYS without embellishing or taking poetic license with it (hint: stick to her actual words) and then ask to negotiate something you can both be enthusiastic about.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I had tried this tact in the MC session, supposedly with the MC helping. I actually suggested "take care" and my W said it was to impersonal. This actually hurt me more because now she was admitting that her emails to these guys had to not be impersonal. I also had done something similar to your example in April when we first reached this agreement. This is when she said, "look, if it bothers you so much, I won't do it any more. It is not a big deal." I said, "OK, thank you." Here we are again and her excuse was, "it is OK because you were in the room when I did it." This excuse made absolutely no sense.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, then look at it this way. You’re willing to lay down your life for your wife, then why aren’t you willing to accept this one behavior that bothers you? Why not do what you are asking her to do for you and CHANGE your behavior on this subject? Worrying about something is a behavior. I think this is what CTJ was trying to get at. He learned to stop worrying about it. It still isn’t his ideal preference but, in the end, he changed HIS behavior instead of relying upon his wife to change hers. It’s just as valid an option, you know?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is one thing to lay down your life for someone you love, and it is another to give up your life for someone to love you. I understand what you are trying to say here. I do not think it is a fair statement. This is because she is doing something that makes me feel hurt, makes me feel like less of a man. She does not need to do this behavior to live. I need the behavior to stop in order to live in this M. I think it is pertinent to tell her how it makes me feel and say, "you can do what you want with this information, you can continue to hurt me, or not." This is not controlling and it offers her a choice. It is not being melowdramatic, it is the truth. This is not her hill to die on, it is mine.

The one thing that kind of does not make sense with what managing2 said, is that if my W is looking for someone who is more independent, then why can't she understand and respect my independent request for her to stop this (as she even admits it) small hurtful act?

Yes, I agree with you there is always the option to cave and change my behavior and accept all hurt just to not offend my W and try to allow our M to move forward, but this will build resentment with me. I honestly cannot see a way around this.

EL