OK,

I get it. I do not think it is fair or right, but I get it. I am going to try an experiment. I am going to go through this weekend and accept my W's POV as reality. I am going to assume, when she says or does something that hurts/bothers me she is just "testing me." It will be interesting to see how this works out. Maybe it will be enough to break our cycle of how we have been, maybe it won't.

On this wedding thing, it is now left up to my W if she wants to go or not. If she does not come to any conclusion by Sunday night, I will ask her what she has decided because I need to take a day off of work for this. We will see.

CTJ -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The only way to change your W's perception of you is going to be to give her consistent examples of how you've changed. And that probably means a year of work. (Yes, a stinking year. That's mostly a guess, based on how long it took me to start changing my W's perceptions. I agree that's terrible.) Peoples perceptions just *don't* change that fast, particularly when they've become ingrained over 4 years. But, as she has said, "She's still here." That means that you have time, if you have the energy. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hopefully, I get time served for the last five months. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When you go to the wedding and hang out with her and her friends, and you have fun, and you don't have an emotional reaction even though you feel like a third wheel, and she ignores you more than you would ultimately like... That'll score you points, too.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See, on this one, I wonder if I really will, because I did this already with another wedding and even though she admits I was completely different, it did not score me any consideration that I would not be just as wonderful at future weddings.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But, you won't be alone. We'll be here to help you look at how you could have done something better, and help you to get prepared.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Cool! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> This help from you guys is tremendous! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Telly -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Maybe you are doing things that DESPITE YOUR BEST INTENTIONS are understandably communicating negative things to your wife.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am sure you are right.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> instead, ignore her negative comments. Pretend she is testing you, and hoping that this time, you will let her say what she wants without arguing and defending.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, I am going to try this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Exactly. You have decided that her perspective is completely invalid because YOU know you are not *picky*. Why justify this to anyone? To anyone else OR to her? What would happen if you asked her, "What makes you say I'm picky?" And then listened to her response and let it go.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Asking her why she thinks I am picky has done me no good in the past. She has "made up" scenarios to prove to herself (and try to prove to me) that I am picky. It is probably better I just do not even ask. I'll just accept it as a test and pass it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm going to be harsh. If you want your wife to trust you then KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT when you have a difference of opinion about something. Either ask her what she has observed that would make her say you are picky, or say simply "Hmnnnn... and then MOVE ON."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ouch, OK,OK I'll be quiet.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Good luck, EL. I hope that you can turn things around. But you are the only one that can make the first change.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks.

Hello Myschae -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is exactly what a DJ is and why it is so very, very harmful. Your wife is using DJ’s about what you think/feel/want instead of asking you and allowing you to choose. It’s a problem. I know you’re barred from using the phrase “disrespectful” to your wife… and you’re not going to be the most effective person to bring this up with your wife, either. I’m confused about the MC session. If you get to go by yourself, why not describe this feeling to your MC and ask for her help in getting through.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Brilliant! Why did I not think of this. I should go to the MC by myself and then I can get some answers from the MC about our last confusing session. This might be good since my W also feels I should go by myself anyway.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well.. first it is a DJ on your part to assume the other person isn’t using “reason” the other person almost certainly has “reasons” for why s/he does what s/he does. Those reasons might not follow a path that YOU would take, but assuming they don’t exist and that your spouse (or anyone else) is just a floating mass of arbitrary contradictions with no basis in some experienced reality is unhelpful. DJ’s generally come from somewhere. They’re still damaging but they do originate from some experience somewhere. For example, it’s hard to make a DJ about someone you’ve never heard of and have no information about.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I here ya. I understand.

Thanks guys.

EL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See, on this one, I wonder if I really will, because I did this already with another wedding and even though she admits I was completely different, it did not score me any consideration that I would not be just as wonderful at future weddings.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think your W was just thinking categorically. And she was trying to resolve new information in a way that fits with her existing POV. We all do it. We take new information and fit it into our framework. It takes a number of times before we rework our POV.

Which is why the most extreme examples score the most points. The closer an example is to an "ideal" screw-up situation, the harder it is to just categorize your reaction. And the more she is pulled to a realization of a new you.

To put things from your perspective:

What if your W called you up and asked if you wanted to get naked after S is in bed tonight?

Your thought would be:

A. She's up to something.
B. She feels guilty about something.
C. She wants something.
D. She is having some kind of odd hormal burst.

It would take a number of times of repeating the behaviour before you would say, "Oh... W *really* has suddenly gotten into this SF thing..."

I hope this example doesn't add to your frustration. Get what I'm at, here?

ExtremelyLost,

I am so excited for you that you are taking all these things to heart.

(Big big grin at EL).

I really believe that your wife is still making efforts (however tainted they may be) to care for you... And clearly you still love her a lot.

There is much much reason to hope in better things to come.

Way to go, EL!

PS. How can you plan on having a GREAT time at that wedding, even if your wife gets distracted by her friends and ends up neglecting you.... I would think through some options so that the evenign feels like a success for you.

I used to hate going to listen to my sister sing, but all the kids got dragged along... So I would bring a book and go sit in a more well-lit area for 20 minutes - 1/2 an hour at a time... It was GREAT. Then i would return to the group for a little "Hey, how's it going" kind of stuff before returning to read again.

Maybe that wouldn't work for you, but I bet you can figure out some way to ensure the evening is an emotional success for you no matter what your wife does...

And I'll bet your mere presence (as long as it is positive) will really endear you to hear.

PS2--I know my 2x4 hit a little bit hard. I actually changed "shut" to "closed", but apparantly I changed it to late... Oops!

Anyway, I'm glad you were able to hear what I was really trying to say despite my coarseness.

EL,

I spent my whole Sat. reading the 1st 25 pages of this thread. I found stunning similarities to my own situation. I give props to you for recognizing that your desires to change for your W were initially another form of control. Also for acknowledging that SF was your #1 need. So many situations, esp. your Anniversary and vacation, could have been mirrored with my sit.

I was also thrilled with your progress in the SF dept, as 10 months is a long time. As someone in need of advice for a withdrawn W, what (if anything) did you do that made SF happen after so long? From the post, it seemed like it was just random.

Ironically, I see very little evidence that you have trust issues anymore. I wish I new how to get through those. I backed off my controlling behavior, and it resulted in a very brief EA/flirtation. I hopefully exposed it enough that it ended, but I am trying not to revert to my old controlling, paranoid behavior.

EL, Mys, MyAlias, Hold, and others...
If it's not too rude, would you mind taking a look at my topic: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=022346

Your advice and own situations seem to resonate with me. With some of you W's, I feel like I am finally understanding what my W has been saying for 6 months. We kept LBing the whole time, and are both emotionally spent. This thread has given me new strength and I am hoping that I can change my actions enough to convince her not to move out (controlling?). I would deeply grateful for any advice on my topic, and will continue to check back here to see if I can contrib.

Thanks and continued GL

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I get it. I do not think it is fair or right, but I get it. I am going to try an experiment. I am going to go through this weekend and accept my W's POV as reality. I am going to assume, when she says or does something that hurts/bothers me she is just "testing me." It will be interesting to see how this works out. Maybe it will be enough to break our cycle of how we have been, maybe it won't. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How did that go?

I think part of the problem is that you’re constantly engaging in weak position arguments. So, now, it’s time for YALWE (Yet ANOTHER Long winded Explanation). Weak position arguments are my unscientific term for arguments that don’t get you anywhere. Most of the time, the culprit is that people are trying to argue Objective Reality against Personal Truth.

An Objective Reality is something that we’ll consider The Truth for the sake of this discussion. The easiest way to describe Objective Reality would be something that is measured and observable so, for example, if I brought in a thermometer, you can I could agree that this room is 72F. Or, if we both looked at a clock, we could agree that it is 10:05AM.

A Personal Truth is how someone experiences something. For example, if it’s 72F I might be cold. Or, even though it’s 10:05AM, I might feel as though it should be later or earlier in the day.

Consider the following Objective Truth vs. Personal Truth argument:


Her: I’m cold.

Him: Cold? It’s 72F in here.

Her: I don’t care, I’m still cold.

Him: That’s not cold.. that’s perfect room temperature!

Her. … Whatever… I’m going to get a sweater.


Who was right? Both people were right. She really was cold at 72F and it really was 72F in the room. The problem is that both people were not discussing the same issue. She was describing her Personal Truth and he was talking about the Objective Truth. The two things ARE somewhat related – the temperature in the room is definitely related to whether or not she felt cold, but there is no hard measure for when someone will feel cold or feel warm. There is no way to resolve the two issues because they aren’t speaking on the same level.

Consider your example about the restaurants.

What do you want for dinner? is a Personal Truth question. Whether or not the Chinese restaurant Take Out is as fast as a drive through is more of an objective truth. It doesn’t really matter how they get mixed up, but when they do, you can find yourself in a weak position argument.

Weak position arguments can also happen between issues that aren’t as clear cut. There are two ways of looking at some issue. For example, I also consider an Objective Truth to be how a person actually feels about an issue, or a person’s actual motivation. So, in relation to a person, how that person actually feels is what I consider the Objective Truth.

Let’s take the example of whether or not you’re Picky. We can assign your opinion as the Objective Truth (You’re not picky). But, then we assign her Personal Truth as “You are picky.” Arguing the Objective Truth against her Personal Truth gets you as far as arguing about the temperature in a room.


Her: You’re more picky than I am.

You: Actually, I’m not picky. I don’t care.

Her: …


Accepting her reality doesn’t mean that you have to assign her feelings Objective Truth. What it does mean is that arguing against her Personal Truth with any kind of Objective Truth is unlikely to be effective. What does work is learning to build agreement.

Now, there are several levels of building agreement – not all levels are the same.

- You can agree exactly (we both look at the clock and see it says 10:04AM.)
- You can agree and relate (I say it’s been a long day, and you understand what I mean by that because even though it’s been the same objective 8 hours, it’s been busier/more stressful, etc.)
- You can agree that it’s a personal truth.

Once you realize that you’re entering into weak position argument territory, you can choose not to take the bait and argue. Instead, find some internal point of reconciliation that what your wife is saying is her Personal Truth and does not have to challenge your reality. Then, from there build agreement by offering options or solutions. Focus on solution oriented conversation.


Her: I’m cold

Him: Oh? Would you like a sweater?

--

Her: You’re more picky than I am.

Him: Ok.. well, how about Chinese then?

--

Her: I don’t know about this wedding. I’m concerned that you’ll be <whatever>.

Him: (agree in principle) Yeah, I can see how that concern would bother you. What do you think should happen?

Her: Well, I’d like to go to the wedding and have a good time without worrying about it.

Him: (agree in fact) Yeah, I’d like to go to the wedding with you and have a good time. I’d also love for you not to worry about it. What do we need to do to make that happen? If I tell you I’m willing to do my best, would that be enough?

Her: <….>



Extremely Lost, the point I’m trying to get across is that in most of these conversations (don’t make me go back, get them, and dissect them for you!) you are in weak position arguments. What will make a substantial change is when you stop taking that tempting bait that is dangling in front of your nose. FOCUS on solution oriented “what do we need to fix this” conversation instead. Throwing out facts and attempting to correct her personal truth hasn’t worked yet, it’s not likely to work tomorrow. That does NOT mean that you just agree with whatever she says, but it DOES mean that you find some basis FOR agreement in what she says. You don’t have to believe you’re picky. But, understand that arguing with your wife about it is unlikely to change her perception.

Think about how differently that conversation could have gone if you had stayed FOCUSED on the problem you were trying to solve (What to eat for dinner.)



Her: I’m calling to find out what you want for dinner.

Him: Oh? Uhm.. I’m up for anything.

Her: I’m calling because you’re more picky than I am about it.

Him: (agree that she feels that way) Oh? Ok.. how about <food choice>.

Her: We had <food choice> twice this week.

Him: Well, if there is anything you don’t want, why not tell me now and I’ll pick from what’s left.

Her: Well, we had hamburgers twice and Italian last night. And, Chinese doesn’t have a drive through.

Him: Ok, how about subs?


Earlier, I suggested you take some notes during conversation. Do you think it would be helpful if you wrote down the actual problem you are trying to solve in any particular conversation to remind yourself not to stray of topic? I understand that your wife makes just as many detours as you do, but you can bring the conversation back if you’re aware of it. You don’t always have to go off tangent with her, you know?

I hope this helps,
Mys

Hey gang,

Well, I tried this weekend to just let everything go. No matter how skewed I felt my W's POV was, I tried to just let it roll off my back and see things her way. I must say this was extremely difficult. Especially when she would tell other people things that were not true, like she did MOST of the work on our patio. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> But I perservered and just let it go. I found this to be tough at times, because I would realize that I would just disagree with my W on small things. She would also do this to me. Sometimes I succeeded and other times I would realize while I was responding that I was disagreeing (old habits are hard to break).

Anyway, I did not notice much a difference in my W or how she treated me. I suspect it will take more than a couple of days. I also mentioned to her that I am going to go to the MC myself on our next appointment, because she cannot make it. When she asked why, I said, I thought about what you said and realized you are right and that it would do me some good. I have put my ring back on. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> She has not worn hers for a couple of days. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

I have a couple of opportunities to shine in her eyes this weekend. Tuesday night she has a meeting she needs to be at. Wednesday night she is having some of the neighborhood girls over for Bunco (her turn for it). I asked her about what she may have decided about the up coming wedding. She said, "I still did not know." Turns out she is nervous about an old girl friend and how caddy she might be towards her. I said, "and I thought you were concerned about me at the wedding. This is good to know." She said, "I am concerned about both." I said, "I know we will have a good time together and with us being together, it does not matter if an old girl friend acts childish. Think of the wonderful things you have accomplished since you were friends with her. You have nothing to be ashamed about." She did not say anything. I let it drop.

CTJ -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think your W was just thinking categorically. And she was trying to resolve new information in a way that fits with her existing POV. We all do it. We take new information and fit it into our framework. It takes a number of times before we rework our POV.

Which is why the most extreme examples score the most points. The closer an example is to an "ideal" screw-up situation, the harder it is to just categorize your reaction. And the more she is pulled to a realization of a new you.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see this. On Saturday, I was not feeling very good. Neither was she. She went to lay down with our S (S still takes naps during the day). I layed down on the couch downstairs to relax. She called down to me dissapointed because I was not upstairs to give her a kneck rub.?. This hit me by surprise since she had been refusing this kind of thing for a while. I sucked it up despite my headache and nausia and went upstairs to give her a small kneck rub. She realized how I was not feeling good and told me to go lay down.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What if your W called you up and asked if you wanted to get naked after S is in bed tonight?

Your thought would be:

A. She's up to something.
B. She feels guilty about something.
C. She wants something.
D. She is having some kind of odd hormal burst.

It would take a number of times of repeating the behaviour before you would say, "Oh... W *really* has suddenly gotten into this SF thing..."

I hope this example doesn't add to your frustration. Get what I'm at, here? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can see what you are saying. I have to say, I would also take this as she was really trying because she is doing something to meet my major EN in a way that I would like her too. If she were feeling guilty or wanted something in the past, she would never "cross the line" in her mind and have SF with me.

Telly -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am so excited for you that you are taking all these things to heart.

(Big big grin at EL).
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks. It is tough to do at times. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I really believe that your wife is still making efforts (however tainted they may be) to care for you... And clearly you still love her a lot.

There is much much reason to hope in better things to come.

Way to go, EL!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks, this is what I have to hold onto - hope!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> PS. How can you plan on having a GREAT time at that wedding, even if your wife gets distracted by her friends and ends up neglecting you.... I would think through some options so that the evenign feels like a success for you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess a successful wedding would be that I get through the night not being seen as jealous and upset over her interacting with other men. I just hope she acts in a way that is respectful to me and our M. I would try to give her the benefit of the doubt in situations. Last time, though, someone thought I was giving her and the person she was talking to a "weird" look. I was not, but I cannot win. I must be extra careful. I guess if I get through the night not being noticed by the crowd much, I would consider this a success.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And I'll bet your mere presence (as long as it is positive) will really endear you to hear.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope you are right.

Snoopwell -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I spent my whole Sat. reading the 1st 25 pages of this thread. I found stunning similarities to my own situation. I give props to you for recognizing that your desires to change for your W were initially another form of control. Also for acknowledging that SF was your #1 need. So many situations, esp. your Anniversary and vacation, could have been mirrored with my sit.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow! You must have really been board on Saturday. Thanks for taking an interest in my post. I am hopeful that more information (like that on this site) becomes more widely known and understood so that many people can benefit and improve their Ms before they fall victim to unnecessary Ds.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I was also thrilled with your progress in the SF dept, as 10 months is a long time. As someone in need of advice for a withdrawn W, what (if anything) did you do that made SF happen after so long? From the post, it seemed like it was just random.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Obviously, I am probably not good to give you advice right now as I have much to still learn from the good people here. The best thing I could recommend is to get the books from this site, read all you can on the site, and listen to the smart and wonderful people posting here. It will help you. In regards to my 10 month drought stopping, unfortunately I believe it to be a random occurence that has not happened again. Sorry to deflate you on this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ironically, I see very little evidence that you have trust issues anymore. I wish I new how to get through those. I backed off my controlling behavior, and it resulted in a very brief EA/flirtation. I hopefully exposed it enough that it ended, but I am trying not to revert to my old controlling, paranoid behavior.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I appreciate what you are saying here, but if you think I have very little trust issues any more, I am afraid to say you are mistaken. This is something I am trying to work on a daily basis on.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> EL, Mys, MyAlias, Hold, and others...
If it's not too rude, would you mind taking a look at my topic: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=022346

Your advice and own situations seem to resonate with me. With some of you W's, I feel like I am finally understanding what my W has been saying for 6 months. We kept LBing the whole time, and are both emotionally spent. This thread has given me new strength and I am hoping that I can change my actions enough to convince her not to move out (controlling?). I would deeply grateful for any advice on my topic, and will continue to check back here to see if I can contrib.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not think you are rude at all. I wish you luck. The first step is starting to realize what your W has been telling you. It sounds as though you have begun the process towards improving your M. I wish you well.

Hello Myschae -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How did that go?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not sure. I need more practice at it. I think it is too early to tell.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Once you realize that you’re entering into weak position argument territory, you can choose not to take the bait and argue. Instead, find some internal point of reconciliation that what your wife is saying is her Personal Truth and does not have to challenge your reality. Then, from there build agreement by offering options or solutions. Focus on solution oriented conversation.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I see what you mean. It is hard to master this. I will keep trying. Thanks for the long examples, they help to make things clearer.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Think about how differently that conversation could have gone if you had stayed FOCUSED on the problem you were trying to solve (What to eat for dinner.)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As always, you are right. Since I am having trouble realizing when I am in this situation, I decided to try the "experiment" and see if I could not "train" myself to better understand and see my W's personal truths better. I thought this might force me to hear what she says and think more about what she says. The hard parts is when it feels like she is putting me down or claiming she is better to me (indirectly). But I am going for an over all difference and change here, so I will see...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Earlier, I suggested you take some notes during conversation. Do you think it would be helpful if you wrote down the actual problem you are trying to solve in any particular conversation to remind yourself not to stray of topic? I understand that your wife makes just as many detours as you do, but you can bring the conversation back if you’re aware of it. You don’t always have to go off tangent with her, you know?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a good idea, but it is somewhat impractical because of when and how fast our conversations tend to be. I do not always have a pen and paper around.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I hope this helps,
Mys </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You always help. Thanks a lot for your post!

Thanks to everyone,

EL

EL ---

Sounds like you're taking the right steps. You'll probably beat me to it. ;-D But, we persevere and learn to see through our W's eyes. BTW, as you slowly learn to do that, it becomes much easier to admire and respect your W. You being to realize what an amazing piece of work they are.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As always, you are right. Since I am having trouble realizing when I am in this situation, I decided to try the "experiment" and see if I could not "train" myself to better understand and see my W's personal truths better. I thought this might force me to hear what she says and think more about what she says. The hard parts is when it feels like she is putting me down or claiming she is better to me (indirectly). But I am going for an over all difference and change here, so I will see...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah... That's a toughie. But, I think you are headed in the right direction. You might want to bring that up with the MC to see if you can get some practical help on it. I think that's the direction the MC is trying to herd you, anyway.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I found this to be tough at times, because I would realize that I would just disagree with my W on small things. She would also do this to me. Sometimes I succeeded and other times I would realize while I was responding that I was disagreeing (old habits are hard to break). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, old habits really are hard to break.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Anyway, I did not notice much a difference in my W or how she treated me. I suspect it will take more than a couple of days. I also mentioned to her that I am going to go to the MC myself on our next appointment, because she cannot make it. When she asked why, I said, I thought about what you said and realized you are right and that it would do me some good. I have put my ring back on. She has not worn hers for a couple of days. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good. I think it’s a good idea for you to have a one-on-one to clarify things. Oh wait, I suggested it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> *playful nudge*

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As always, you are right. Since I am having trouble realizing when I am in this situation, I decided to try the "experiment" and see if I could not "train" myself to better understand and see my W's personal truths better. I thought this might force me to hear what she says and think more about what she says. The hard parts is when it feels like she is putting me down or claiming she is better to me (indirectly). But I am going for an over all difference and change here, so I will see... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do relate. Like everything, it can become a habit.

Here’s an example of a real conversation I had with my H last weekend.



Me: <long ramble about our relationship… >

Him: You know that really irks me!

Me: Eh?

Him: You said <repeat portions of ramble>. And I feel like I can’t win. It’s ridiculous and I have no idea what to do about it.

Me: Hrm. Well, I can see how that would be annoying.. but that’s not really what I meant…

Him: But you said <his version of my ramble.>

Me. Ok, that may have been what I said (agree in principle or that he believes it) but that STILL isn’t what I meant. The message got lost.

Him: Oh. <pause> Well, what did you mean to say?

Me: I’m glad you asked… <insert long clarified ramble>.

Him: Oh, well, that makes more sense….



Now, we could have wandered off on a semantic dissection of the entire conversation to justify his understanding of what I said. But, my focal point was my message that I was trying to convey. I think the objective truth about what I said at first is that I didn’t really say what he heard but I also didn’t really say what I meant to say clearly. We could have wandered off on him jumping to conclusions but it was STILL more important for me to get my message across clearly. I can take some responsibility in the conversation for saying things clearly enough for him to understand them.

It is true that he misunderstood the content of my message. But, rather than reacting with anger, I listened to what he THOUGHT he heard. It WAS an annoying message. If I had been saying that, I can understand why he would be frustrated. Since I wasn’t, I choose not to become defensive. Yes, he may have ‘jumped to the wrong conclusion’ but that is always a risk you take in communication. Rather than argue with him about whether or not he should be frustrated, I simply believed that he was and treated him as if that was true. I treated him as though he really heard what he thought he heard (because, he really probably did.) Just because he “heard” me say <ramble> doesn’t mean that’s what I meant.

My point is that the conversation stayed focused. I wasn’t going to argue with him about a message I didn’t mean to send and whether or not that would frustrate him. I wasn’t going to argue with him about the semantic content of my words and the various connotations of the phrases. All I wanted to do was get my point across. I agreed with him until he was ready to hear what my message WAS. HINT: Sometimes it takes a few points of agreement until you can get to a place to find a solution.

Mys

Hello guys,

Well, I just blew it. My W, just called me to complain that she just lost her pair of sunglasses in a store. She could not find them. She said, "I did not want to have to go and spend another $400 on another pair of sunglasses, but I guess I will have too." I said, "What, we do not have the money for you to go and drop another $400 on a pair of sunglasses." She became real irritated that I was against her spending another $400. We are not made of money and over the last three years she has turned into a person who spends a lot more money. We have a big final payment coming up in the next month for some furniture we got on a no interest for X amount of days. If we do not make this payment, it will cost us a lot more money. If she spends $400 on sun glasses, we will not make this payment.

She started getting upset with me and saying that I am not supportive. She was really yelling a lot and upset. I said, "Honey, I am sorry you lost your sun glasses. I know how this upsets you, and I am sorry. Can we get you a cheaper pair until we have enough money to get you a nicer pair again?" She yelled, "You know how I need these sun glasses because I get a headache if I go outside without them. I need the expensive polarized kind." I said, "I am sure we can get a cheaper polarized version to get you through for a little bit." She said, "I never question what you buy. You go to the eye doctor and spend $800." I said, "Honey, I go to the eye doctor once every two years. I need glasses to be able to legally drive. The last time I went, was two years ago on my Birthday. For my birthday you got me a pair of prescription sun glasses, the first pair I have ever owned. I have needed glasses since I was 12 years old. My needing glasses to actually see is completely different and not comparable to you needing sun glasses. My going to the eye doctor is comparable to you going to the gynocologist. It is medically necessary for me to go." She said, "I am sorry I have a doctors appointment at the same time as our next MC session. I told you to go alone and you had a problem with that!" Me - stunned and confused - ,"Honey we are getting off topic here. I do support you and hear your frustration and hurt over loosing your sun glasses. I am just not comfortable with spending that kind of money right now, knowing the payments we have in the next month." She said, "you do not understand how important my sun glasses are to me. I am going!" She hung up.

I am extremely mad right now. My W is being unfair over this. She called me at work, which I am pretty busy today. She did not care about interrupting my day. She was unhappy with me for not agreeing to her frivolously spending $400, which is a lot of money by the way. I used to be so proud of my W in the beginning. She used to be so proud at how she could stretch a dollar. Now it seems she just spends. She thinks she is spending concious because she saves all of her reciepts. This is only part of good spending. Good spending is about not spending when you do not have it.

I am also very upset because hanging up on someone is way childish. This is unacceptable. I do not know what to do next with her. I am so insulted that she just hung up. This is what the women in my previous bad relationships did in the end. I think it is such a poor way to handle things. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

So what are your suggestions now? How are you going to convince me that I am once again wrong for not wanting to go broke over a stupid pair of sun glasses? <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

EL

Before I hit you with the 2X4 (Prepare your straps, this time), you did a *great* job of keeping the conversation on track. I am *very* proud:

I think I'll let your words for your W deliver the 2X4 for me


She was in a panic. She was definitely not to be reasoned with. But they were just stupid sun glasses.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She said, "you do not understand how important my sun glasses are to me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She felt they were equivalent to your glasses. But they were not the same. They were just stupid sun glassess.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She said, "you do not understand how important my sun glasses are to me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You don't have the $400 because in the long run it will cost you more for not making the last payment on the the furniture.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She said, "you do not understand how important my sun glasses are to me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And if you didn't get it:


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She said, "you do not understand how important my sun glasses are to me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Remember when we were talking about dying for your W, and your desire to protect her. You can't protect her until you know from *her* what her best interests are.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She said, "you do not understand how important my sun glasses are to me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I
will never understand my W's obsession with keeping the yard mowed. I mean, it looks really good when it's done, and I support her about it. But it's cutting into our time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She says, "you do not understand how important my mowing is to me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You can't change your W's values. You can only hope to negotiate so that you both get something you value.

[edited to delete extraneous quotes and add a section about dying to protect EL's W]

<small>[ September 13, 2004, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: CommittedToJewel ]</small>

For something more practical, and less 2x4

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Honey we are getting off topic here. I do support you and hear your frustration and hurt over loosing your sun glasses. I am just not comfortable with spending that kind of money right now, knowing the payments we have in the next month</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Change that to:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Honey, we are getting off topic here. I do support you and hear your frustration and hurt over losing your sun glasses. Can we talk about how to work it into our budget when I get it home?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See... Otherwise, you've simply told her that no, she can't have what's important for her to have.

You *must* make her priorities your priorities. It's what my W keeps kicking me about. Otherwise, you make a terrible team.

CTJ -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You *must* make her priorities your priorities. It's what my W keeps kicking me about. Otherwise, you make a terrible team.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thats fine. What about the priorities she already agreed to, like the furniture and the bill we have coming up? This was a priority to her before. I cannot be faulted for her actions that are absolutely not conducive to reaching any agreement. She forcefully yelled screamed and kicked and I would not agree with letting her get her way, which would hurt both of us. Therefore, she tried some more yelling and arguing and then hung up. Believe me, you know how open I am to reaching agreements with her. H***, I am even letting her say things that are not true about me to other people, while I am present. I am swallowing any pride I have left. I have thrown any ego I might have away. I cannot let her hurt us financially. I will not give total control with regards to our finances and our son's well being to her when her outlook is that it is OK to drop $400 on a pair of sun glasses because she feels like it.

Do you get me here? If you understand, certainly reason causes you to agree with me this time. I could replace the "You do not know how important those sun glasses are to me!" with "You do not know how important $400 is to me!" This statement should be equally respected by her, no matter what condition she is in. Withdrawl from me or not, there is a basic survival instinct that should be present in "reasonable" people when it comes to money, the household and financial support of your kids. I guess we just found another "boundary" of mine.

You did not comment on my W's hanging up on me either. I mean, I am getting pretty sick and tired of her thinking my work is nothing and I am just "waiting for her to call me." Then to think so little of me as a human beign to just decide, - we are done - and hang up? Thats Bull SH**!

EL

Actually... A lot of people hang up on each other. It's a really frustrating and annoying reaction. But not particularly ground shaking. It's definitely a comment on your humanity or value. Just on the amount of anger and panic in her.

You're right. She didn't understand the importance of the $400 to you. I understand that you are willing to build agreements. But at the same time, that means you need to have open and lengthy discussion about how to get her priorities and yours met. Which is way I changed the quote to say:

Can we discuss how to fit this into the budget when I get home tonight?

or some such.

Because then you could both take a long look at the budget and discuss, practically, without emotion, what could be done and what the consequences were.

As it was, it looks to me like you dismissed the possibility of getting her her glasses as soon as you heard about it, without being willing to discuss the issue further.

At that point it went from the two of you working together to find a way to meet *all* of your priorities to a yes/no match of whether or not your priorities or her priorities would win.


And, I find it perfectly reasonable that she call you at work, not knowing what you do. My W calls all of the time. She knows that I'm not always in my office, so she may get my VM.

CTJ-

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Actually... A lot of people hang up on each other. It's a really frustrating and annoying reaction. But not particularly ground shaking. It's definitely a comment on your humanity or value. Just on the amount of anger and panic in her.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First of all "a lot of people hanging up on each other" is a sad commentary on people and society today. She needs to get control of her OWN anger and panic whether it is dealing with me or anyone else. She has been wronged by my behavior in the past, as have I by her behavior. This does not give either of us liscense to throw out rational ways of dealing with situations. Now, before you say I am DJing, I must say, where does her behavior (whether it is rational or not to her) start to be allowed to be called what it is becoming - abnormally irrational. At what stage?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You're right. She didn't understand the importance of the $400 to you. I understand that you are willing to build agreements. But at the same time, that means you need to have open and lengthy discussion about how to get her priorities and yours met. Which is way I changed the quote to say:

Can we discuss how to fit this into the budget when I get home tonight?

or some such.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would be perfectly fine with postponing a discussion until I am home. However, she was saying that she is already getting a headache from not having her glasses and she needed a pair NOW! This is where I loose it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As it was, it looks to me like you dismissed the possibility of getting her her glasses as soon as you heard about it, without being willing to discuss the issue further.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I dismissed the possibility of her "RIGHT NOW - THIS HOUR" going and dropping $400 on a pair of sun glasses, that might even turn up in the store's lost and found in a week.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> At that point it went from the two of you working together to find a way to meet *all* of your priorities to a yes/no match of whether or not your priorities or her priorities would win.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You see, there is a difference between "MY" priorities and the priorities for the common good of our family. With my W there is just "HER" priorities. It is unreasonable to spend $400 on a pair of sun glasses right now for our family. In my book it is not a matter of right or wrong when it comes to what is good for the family or not. The individual takes a back seat to the common good of the entire family. This is how I live my life. I do not have a lot of things I would like, or would have if I lived by myself, but this is OK with me because the "family" is better off from my sacrifices.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And, I find it perfectly reasonable that she call you at work, not knowing what you do. My W calls all of the time. She knows that I'm not always in my office, so she may get my VM.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I never said it was unreasonable for my W to call me at work. I like her calling me during the day. What I said was that it was unreasonable for her to argue or carry on as she did with being on the phone with me while I am at work. When she calls me at work she needs to respect that there needs to be some decorm in those phone conversations because I am at work. Thats all.

EL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would be perfectly fine with postponing a discussion until I am home. However, she was saying that she is already getting a headache from not having her glasses and she needed a pair NOW! This is where I loose it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oddly enough, this is where I start understanding it all more clearly. Having lived in a family of people with chronic headaches.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First of all "a lot of people hanging up on each other" is a sad commentary on people and society today. She needs to get control of her OWN anger and panic whether it is dealing with me or anyone else. She has been wronged by my behavior in the past, as have I by her behavior. This does not give either of us liscense to throw out rational ways of dealing with situations. Now, before you say I am DJing, I must say, where does her behavior (whether it is rational or not to her) start to be allowed to be called what it is becoming - abnormally irrational. At what stage?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let me clarify what I was saying. Hanging up on someone is never an *acceptable* form of dealing with a situation. I was merely trying to clarify that is isn't a *personal* way of dealing with things.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I dismissed the possibility of her "RIGHT NOW - THIS HOUR" going and dropping $400 on a pair of sun glasses, that might even turn up in the store's lost and found in a week.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've decided that I'm responding to you all wrong on this one. I think it's your turn.

Please explain to me, as best as you can, what was going on in her head. Start from the point she lost her sunglasses, go through the point, where she searched for them but couldn't find them, and then move on to the point where she calls you.

Call it an exercise in empathy. Role play, for me, her part in this. ;-D

CTJ -

Well this will be difficult since I was not there, but here goes:

She goes to leave the store and realizes, when she goes to put on her sun glasses that she lost them. She panics because of how expensive they were. She goes looking around the store to all the locations she was at when she was shopping. She does this a second time after not finding them the first time. She goes and talks to the lost and found. The lady was not very helpful. When she asked if she could leave her number because her sun glasses were expensive, the lady says, "I guess." This upsets my W further. She is feeling upset and a little guilty because I had bought these for her the first time. She gets in her car and calls to tell me what happened. In her frustration she does not ask for mutual agreement on repurchasing the sun glasses, she tells me she is going to buy another pair. This is where I realize she is not thinking things through and is just reacting. Realizing that her reactions could possibly be a BIG mistake with regards to our future bills, I try to stop the immediate purchase of another pair of $400 sun glasses.

Does this help?

EL

Extremely Lost

$400 on a pair of sunglasses? Seriously? Wow. Ok.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> First of all "a lot of people hanging up on each other" is a sad commentary on people and society today. She needs to get control of her OWN anger and panic whether it is dealing with me or anyone else. She has been wronged by my behavior in the past, as have I by her behavior. This does not give either of us liscense to throw out rational ways of dealing with situations. Now, before you say I am DJing, I must say, where does her behavior (whether it is rational or not to her) start to be allowed to be called what it is becoming - abnormally irrational. At what stage? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">About the hanging up issue, you have some homework to do. You need to say “OUCH, it hurts me when you hang up the phone in the middle of a conversation.” - then leave it be when you get home, don’t you? Mmmmm? (Yes, I realize there was a lot more that bothered you about that conversation, but consider the ineffectiveness of presenting her with a list. )

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I would be perfectly fine with postponing a discussion until I am home. However, she was saying that she is already getting a headache from not having her glasses and she needed a pair NOW! This is where I loose it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, on the bright side, at least she called first and didn’t just go ahead and spend the money.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You see, there is a difference between "MY" priorities and the priorities for the common good of our family. With my W there is just "HER" priorities. It is unreasonable to spend $400 on a pair of sun glasses right now for our family. In my book it is not a matter of right or wrong when it comes to what is good for the family or not. The individual takes a back seat to the common good of the entire family. This is how I live my life. I do not have a lot of things I would like, or would have if I lived by myself, but this is OK with me because the "family" is better off from my sacrifices. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But is it fair for you to assume she has to adopt your values? She may have a different perspective. It’s all fine and well that you’re willing to sacrifice your needs like that. It doesn’t necessarily mean that everyone else is going to cheerfully sacrifice something they feel is important because you feel it’s not a family issue.

Now, that doesn’t mean she gets to spend the $400.00 but again, grading her according to your very high standards is detrimental (can you say DJ).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I never said it was unreasonable for my W to call me at work. I like her calling me during the day. What I said was that it was unreasonable for her to argue or carry on as she did with being on the phone with me while I am at work. When she calls me at work she needs to respect that there needs to be some decorm in those phone conversations because I am at work. Thats all. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She was upset. People do things outside their normal behavior when they are upset. Unless you’re prepared to say “I don’t want you to call me unless you’re not upset about something.” then you kind of take some good with some bad.

Take a deep breath. Do your MC homework. Tell your wife it bothered you without trying to negotiate for a change in behavior. (I really mean this. Do it.) Let her react however she needs to react.

I think you did a nice job sympathizing, keeping the conversation focused, and offering some very kind alternatives. I think she was just in an emotional place that you couldn’t reach. You did a good job, and I’m sorry it didn’t turn out well. It’s not what you did or didn’t do. BUT that doesn’t mean that it’s going to be helpful to hold a lot of resentment about it. Let her know then try to let it go.

Mys

It's a good start.

What I'd like to see is something written looking through her eyes. (Yes, it's silly, but I do mean visualize it through her eyes, in your mind.) But I want you to throw something else into the mix. I want you to throw the headaches in there.

Hey Myschae,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> $400 on a pair of sunglasses? Seriously? Wow. Ok.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tell me about it. I do not spend that on my prescription glasses!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> About the hanging up issue, you have some homework to do. You need to say “OUCH, it hurts me when you hang up the phone in the middle of a conversation.” - then leave it be when you get home, don’t you? Mmmmm? (Yes, I realize there was a lot more that bothered you about that conversation, but consider the ineffectiveness of presenting her with a list. )
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can count on you to ground me in reality! Thank you. You are so right. I will tell her this when I get home. Unfortunately, I have been through this so many times before, that I know what she will say and do. I will walk in and give her a hug/kiss hello. Then I will say, "Ouch, it really hurt me today when you hung up on me." At this point there are several potential respones.....

A) "I did not hang up on you, we were done talking." The classic denial line.

B) "Well, I was hurt when you did not show me thoughtfulness and caring." The - You hurt me more than I hurt you - approach.

C) She may just shutdown and walk away. I doubt this one will actually happen.

D) "Whatever, you were being mean to me." The dismissive approach.

I need suggestions on how or what to say after her response. If you guys have some suggestions, I would be greatful.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, on the bright side, at least she called first and didn’t just go ahead and spend the money. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, I guess I should take this as a positive. I like that you try to look for the silver lining. Unfortunately, I struggle with seeing it as a good thing she called me to TELL me she was going to spend an outrageous amount of money. I do not know if it would have been worse that she went and spent the money, or that she calls and TELLS me this is what she is doing (where there is no room for my opinion).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But is it fair for you to assume she has to adopt your values? She may have a different perspective. It’s all fine and well that you’re willing to sacrifice your needs like that. It doesn’t necessarily mean that everyone else is going to cheerfully sacrifice something they feel is important because you feel it’s not a family issue.

Now, that doesn’t mean she gets to spend the $400.00 but again, grading her according to your very high standards is detrimental (can you say DJ).
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How is it really a DJ to expect your marital partner would consider what is best for the whole instead of her as a n individual? Especially with a child involved, I think this is taking the MB principles out of their context a little. Sorry for the challenge. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She was upset. People do things outside their normal behavior when they are upset. Unless you’re prepared to say “I don’t want you to call me unless you’re not upset about something.” then you kind of take some good with some bad.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know she was upset. This is just part of the bigger picture. She does not have any respect for me or my work. She does not understand just how stressful it can be and what is all at stake with my work. I try to communicate about this some times but she just ends up trying to one up me. I feel unheard and belittled. I wish we could trade for a week. I know she thinks this would really open my eyes if we did this, but since I have been spending a lot more time with our S than her, when I am home, I do not think I am really missing anything. I am not trying to be cocky here, believe me. I know it is hard work, what she does. She just does not understand the stress involved with having +20 other familes depending on my performance on a daily basis.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Take a deep breath. Do your MC homework. Tell your wife it bothered you without trying to negotiate for a change in behavior. (I really mean this. Do it.) Let her react however she needs to react. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will do this, but please offer me a clue as to what to do with her possible reactions that I listed above.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think you did a nice job sympathizing, keeping the conversation focused, and offering some very kind alternatives. I think she was just in an emotional place that you couldn’t reach. You did a good job, and I’m sorry it didn’t turn out well. It’s not what you did or didn’t do. BUT that doesn’t mean that it’s going to be helpful to hold a lot of resentment about it. Let her know then try to let it go.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for saying what you did. One of my problems is that no matter what a nice job I did or did not do, she WILL blame me for ruining her day and not being sensitive and supporting towards her.


CTJ-

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's a good start.

What I'd like to see is something written looking through her eyes. (Yes, it's silly, but I do mean visualize it through her eyes, in your mind.) But I want you to throw something else into the mix. I want you to throw the headaches in there.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I appreciate where you are going with this. I need to say, lets stop right there. Until two years ago my W did not have her precious $400 sun glasses. She did not have the "headache issue" so much. I am not trying to be cruel nor minimize people with chronic headaches. I am just stating the truth. My W did have headaches all the time and therefore started seeing a chiropractor. With in a month, my W's apparent headaches dissappeared. This supposedly had something to do with her kneck being misaligned from a car accident she had before we had met. I am sorry and am going to make a judgment here that her headaches from the lack of having a $400 pair of sun glasses is phsycological. This is what I have gained through my years of input with her.

Thanks,

EL