</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> need suggestions on how or what to say after her response. If you guys have some suggestions, I would be greatful.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't do or say much at all. You're not saying it to have a conversation. You're just saying it to participate in the experiment. She has the right to say "Ouch" back. Remember, you are *not* trying to talk to her about her behaviour. You are just saying "Ouch, I was hurt. Per the MC's instructions."


Again, you are trying to bring this "reality" thing in to explain to me why your W's POV is incorrect. Whether the sunglasses for headache is psychological or not, it's there in her head. So, I repeat the request. Divorce yourself from your POV. Enter into her POV, including the psychological lie that the sunglasses help the situation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I need suggestions on how or what to say after her response. If you guys have some suggestions, I would be greatful. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You say: “I wanted to let you know per our homework assignment. I’m not asking for further discussion but needed to let you know it really bothered me.”

Then, you drop it. Let her get the last word if she needs to. Anything else is getting into a weak position argument. You don’t have to adopt her truth, just don’t try to correct her personal truth, right?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yeah, I guess I should take this as a positive. I like that you try to look for the silver lining. Unfortunately, I struggle with seeing it as a good thing she called me to TELL me she was going to spend an outrageous amount of money. I do not know if it would have been worse that she went and spent the money, or that she calls and TELLS me this is what she is doing (where there is no room for my opinion). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, yeah, but isn’t it better than getting home and her saying ‘I didn’t get a pair of sunglasses today because I knew if I called you that you’d say NO and be upset.’ She called you and let you react how you reacted without prejudging and guessing. That IS a positive.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How is it really a DJ to expect your marital partner would consider what is best for the whole instead of her as a n individual? Especially with a child involved, I think this is taking the MB principles out of their context a little. Sorry for the challenge </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because different people have different ideas of what reality is – Dr. Phil says: “There is no reality, only perception.” In her perception, those glasses really might be that important or have some other significance. Once again, this is trespassing into the arena of trying to get her to act how you think she SHOULD act instead of allowing her the autonomy to have whatever emotions and ideas that she actually does have. People have faults. People can be loved even though they have faults. Constantly being compared to some ‘perfect’ standard is really very disheartening and does terrible things to your self esteem. That’s why it’s a DJ.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know she was upset. This is just part of the bigger picture. She does not have any respect for me or my work. She does not understand just how stressful it can be and what is all at stake with my work. I try to communicate about this some times but she just ends up trying to one up me. I feel unheard and belittled. I wish we could trade for a week. I know she thinks this would really open my eyes if we did this, but since I have been spending a lot more time with our S than her, when I am home, I do not think I am really missing anything. I am not trying to be cocky here, believe me. I know it is hard work, what she does. She just does not understand the stress involved with having +20 other familes depending on my performance on a daily basis. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What you’re saying is probably true. Again, it’s how people react to crisis situations. You can’t expect her to be you and act the way YOU would react. She was upset. She doesn’t always act that way on the phone, just when she’s upset. Yes?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I will do this, but please offer me a clue as to what to do with her possible reactions that I listed above. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’d stick to the same reaction (calmly) no matter what her response is.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thanks for saying what you did. One of my problems is that no matter what a nice job I did or did not do, she WILL blame me for ruining her day and not being sensitive and supporting towards her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, that is unfortunate. Again, you can only manage your reaction. Trying to argue with her that you didn’t ruin her day is a weak position argument. It’s not going to help.

Do your homework. Say what you need to say then let it be. Remind her of WHY you are giving her the information then let her do what she needs to do with it.

Mys

OK CTJ -

I do not see what this is going to prove. I can fill in what she was thinking, but it does not mean I agree with it, nor accept it. Here goes:

Damn, I can't find my glasses. I better go back in and look for them. I need them or I am going to get a headache! I can't find them anywhere. Oh No! They were expensive! My H is going to kill me (figuratively, of course). I better look again. Damn, No where. Lets ask the nice lady at lost and found. Excuse me miss, did anyone turn in a pair of sun glasses? No, well ok. I lost a pair just a little bit ago in your store. I normally would not be worried about a pair of sun glasses, but they were more than $20. Could I write my name and number down and have you give me a call if someone turns them in? L&F lady, "Well, I guess." You guess! How about doing your job! (she actually told me about this part) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Well, lets go! I am so frustrated that I lost my sun glasses. The sun is starting to give me a headache already. I better call hubby.

There you go. How is this going to help?

EL

Heheheh... It was worth a shot...

Honestly... If she has that psychological perception of it preventing the headache's, I doubt the price really occurred to her. Most likely it was running through her mind:

Oh, crap, I'm going to live through that nightmare pain again,Oh, crap, I'm going to live through that nightmare pain again,Oh, crap, I'm going to live through that nightmare pain again,Oh, crap, I'm going to live through that nightmare pain again,Oh, crap, I'm going to live through that nightmare pain again,Oh, crap, I'm going to live through that nightmare pain again,


Okay, so you get the point... People who have lived through chronic headaches tend to have *very* irrational and vehement reactions to being in a situation where they are going to get triggered.

But I realized that your W was wrong. It's not that you don't understand how important the sunglasses are to her. It's that you think she's wrong and they aren't that important.

I was hoping to give you a chance to really spend some time looking through her eyes. To feel the fear and panic she was feeling when she called you. To understand the rationality behind her POV. She will *always* make her judgements based on her POV.

Forget what you call *reality*. The whole concept will do you no good. There is your perception and her perception. And being in a marriage is learning to see things through her perception so that you can do what's best for her. And it's also not getting so caught up in your own perception.

Honestly, I was hoping I could lead you to see enough of the trauma that not having those sun glasses would be for her, that you might go home and appologize and tell her how glad you are she has those sun glasses.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not see what this is going to prove. I can fill in what she was thinking, but it does not mean I agree with it, nor accept it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This statement right here summarizes why she is in withdrawal.

Right now, you are both making this statement, and it is singlehandedly killing your marriage.

Hey Myschae -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You say: “I wanted to let you know per our homework assignment. I’m not asking for further discussion but needed to let you know it really bothered me.”
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks, you really do not know just how helpful this is. I needed it spelled out for me. Thanks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then, you drop it. Let her get the last word if she needs to. Anything else is getting into a weak position argument. You don’t have to adopt her truth, just don’t try to correct her personal truth, right?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right. Do I need to adopt her personal truth and apologize, if I feel it will further calm the situation, or do I stick to what I believe and do not apologize?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, yeah, but isn’t it better than getting home and her saying ‘I didn’t get a pair of sunglasses today because I knew if I called you that you’d say NO and be upset.’ She called you and let you react how you reacted without prejudging and guessing. That IS a positive.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right! I did not even see that. Duh! Thanks for pointing that out. She did let me react as me instead of just assuming how I would react.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Because different people have different ideas of what reality is – Dr. Phil says: “There is no reality, only perception.” In her perception, those glasses really might be that important or have some other significance. Once again, this is trespassing into the arena of trying to get her to act how you think she SHOULD act instead of allowing her the autonomy to have whatever emotions and ideas that she actually does have. People have faults. People can be loved even though they have faults. Constantly being compared to some ‘perfect’ standard is really very disheartening and does terrible things to your self esteem. That’s why it’s a DJ.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">People can be loved for their faults - BOTH PEOPLE.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What you’re saying is probably true. Again, it’s how people react to crisis situations. You can’t expect her to be you and act the way YOU would react. She was upset. She doesn’t always act that way on the phone, just when she’s upset. Yes?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She does not always act this way on the phone, you are right. However, I am always feeling like I need to be careful on the phone and not upset her. I try to not really disagree with her, because at this time we do not solve differences well and she gets loud and yells too quickly.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I’d stick to the same reaction (calmly) no matter what her response is.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks. I will do this no matter what.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, that is unfortunate. Again, you can only manage your reaction. Trying to argue with her that you didn’t ruin her day is a weak position argument. It’s not going to help.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right. It is not going to help to argue. Unfortunately, it still hurts. I guess I could tell her that it hurts when she says that. I probably should not say, "It hurts when you say that because I do not feel I ruined your day."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do your homework. Say what you need to say then let it be. Remind her of WHY you are giving her the information then let her do what she needs to do with it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks Mys.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right. Do I need to adopt her personal truth and apologize, if I feel it will further calm the situation, or do I stick to what I believe and do not apologize?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How about:

I'm sorry for not recognizing how important the sun glasses are to you?

Does that fit the sitch? (Never lie!)

Essentially, you only are appologizing for not accepting that her POV was her POV, without stating that her POV is your POV.

<small>[ September 13, 2004, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: CommittedToJewel ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thanks, you really do not know just how helpful this is. I needed it spelled out for me. Thanks. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Any time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Right. Do I need to adopt her personal truth and apologize, if I feel it will further calm the situation, or do I stick to what I believe and do not apologize? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you actually sorry? I don’t advocate insincere apologies. If you can find some reason to apologize, go ahead. If you don’t feel it, don’t insult her by saying it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You are right! I did not even see that. Duh! Thanks for pointing that out. She did let me react as me instead of just assuming how I would react. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> People can be loved for their faults - BOTH PEOPLE. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep, now make me feel better and tell me if you understand why it’s a DJ.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She does not always act this way on the phone, you are right. However, I am always feeling like I need to be careful on the phone and not upset her. I try to not really disagree with her, because at this time we do not solve differences well and she gets loud and yells too quickly. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*nods* I understand. Part of that will go away if you can reduce your overall number of arguments by avoiding the weak position ones.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You are right. It is not going to help to argue. Unfortunately, it still hurts. I guess I could tell her that it hurts when she says that. I probably should not say, "It hurts when you say that because I do not feel I ruined your day." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, you shouldn’t say that because then it will compromise her ability to communicate to you what hurts her. Do you see how circular that gets?



Her: X hurts me.

Him: It hurts me that X hurts you.

Her: It hurts me that it hurts you when I tell you X hurts me.


Talk about your chronic headache, eh?

Mys

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Talk about your chronic headache, eh?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hrmm... I think EL is probably thinking that I'm trying to get him to understand about chronic headache's by being one. ;-D

CTJ -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How about:

I'm sorry for not recognizing how important the sun glasses are to you?

Does that fit the sitch? (Never lie!)

Essentially, you only are appologizing for not accepting that her POV was her POV, without stating that her POV is your POV.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't you see? In my POV, I did take into account how important they were to her. The importance did not stack up over a large bill at the end of the month that needs paid.

About your earlier post on the chronic pain caused by headaches.... So if you take everyone at their word, at what point do you accept that someone is lying? You see, if what you are saying is how you actually go about your M, at what point would you let yourself believe that your W was lying to you? Just a thought.

EL

Tell her you understand how painful it is to lose $400.00 sunglasses. Then, ask her to buy $20.00 sunglasses in the future. They can still be stylish and polarized if she shops at Ross or TJ Maxx.

Or, she can get a part time job and buy the expensive sunglasses if she wants to replace them. But remind her sunglasses are easily lost and it is better to wear cheap ones. The expensive ones are never found as people keep them if they find them.

The whole thing is nutz. I have a very expensive, stylish pair of prescription sunglasses and it cost me $235.00. Why blow money like that.

So --

You did know how important they were to her. In essence, that they were part of the foundation her happy healthy life was built on. But you valued the $400 more than that?

I just want to make sure we're both looking at the ramifications here. To her, they were important enough to pay the $400 plus the extra money related to the furniture.

To put it another way... It's quite possible that those sunglasses were more important to her than SF is to you. That much of a significant source of happiness.

But, as Myschae says... An insincere appology is worthless.

I think someone is lying to me when:

They say something to me that I know that they know is not true.


Yes, that makes it a *very* subjective question. It becomes a question of whether I truly believe that the person knew the pig was pink at the time they told me it was black and white.... But then again, I don't accuse people of lying when they were genuinely mistaken, very often.

Myschae -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Are you actually sorry? I don’t advocate insincere apologies. If you can find some reason to apologize, go ahead. If you don’t feel it, don’t insult her by saying it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am sorry for the situation and that I was present for it. By being present, I feel at fault. I am not sorry for a lot of it though.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yep, now make me feel better and tell me if you understand why it’s a DJ.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Its a DJ because I am comparing my W to how I think she should act.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> *nods* I understand. Part of that will go away if you can reduce your overall number of arguments by avoiding the weak position ones.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope so, because as it is, I tense up when I realize she is on the phone. I used to be excited she was on the phone, now it bothers me. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yeah, you shouldn’t say that because then it will compromise her ability to communicate to you what hurts her. Do you see how circular that gets?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, I knew you would say this. I can still say that hurts, when/if she says I ruined her day. I just should not expand upon it, right.


Thanks,

EL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am sorry for the situation and that I was present for it. By being present, I feel at fault. I am not sorry for a lot of it though. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you want to apologize, then do it specifically for what you’re sorry about.

I’m sorry that our conversation was frustrating for you today. I don’t like to upset you.

Your call.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Its a DJ because I am comparing my W to how I think she should act. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good job. I feel much better now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I hope so, because as it is, I tense up when I realize she is on the phone. I used to be excited she was on the phone, now it bothers me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’m trying to make you very, very difficult to argue with. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Believe me, it’s possible.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yeah, I knew you would say this. I can still say that hurts, when/if she says I ruined her day. I just should not expand upon it, right. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure, that sounds like a plan. I don’t think you or your wife has been doing your HW assignment this week. So, it’s time to ramp up on that, don’t you think?

Mys

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why blow money like that. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The same reason a lot of people put money into MC's, actually. Chronic pain causes people to do lots of quirky things, if they think they have found the one and only source of relief.

Hi again! (Telly enters, grinning at all).

What about saying "Honey, I love you. We sure are in a tight spot. You want replacement glasses right now. I don't want to spend another 400.00 on glasses. I wonder if we can figure out a way we can both be happy--somewhere between buying the glasses right now, and not buying them at all. How would you feel about brainstorming some options with me?"

And then if she agrees, suggest a few options you alreadly like... Perhaps buying them in 2 months, after you've had time to save money...

ON ANOTHER NOTE:

I think you are in a lot of pain right now. You feel unappreciated, misunderstood, belittled and blamed (based on how you have described things throughout this post).

Those are yucky feelings to have all at once.

I wonder what kind of yucky feelinngs your wife must be having these days to act the way she does?

Keep being gentle with her. It's great that you have been able to rise above your feelings in many instances, but sounds like she isn't quite there yet.

Keep up the good work EL.

EL--

The more I think about it tonight, the more convinced I become I have DJ'd you. I'm sorry.

EL,

I'm new, don't know your financial situation, and not very experienced, but...

$400 is a lot for sunglasses, IMO. $400 is not a lot for your W's love bank. If you felt it would be a sacrifice, you could look at it as a downpayment on future bliss. Or try to postpone the discussion until she was not panicked. Even if you could get your W to work w/you on a list of alternatives, before saying no, you might make her feel better about losing them.

$400 is a hell of a lot for sunglasses. A few people posted something about being right, vs. being happy. Unless it would cause harm to your S, find a way to do it.

So you know I am not speaking out of my a**, my W bought a new luxury car in 2003. I argued against buying the car, but gave in. She decided she wanted a cheaper car, and I argued against loosing the depreciation. We sold the car (-$5K downpayment). She bought a used car (-$2K downpayment). It would have been cheaper to keep the 1st car, or keep the luxury car, but I did not want to be right.

Hey, I got an idea! Go out and purchase a really cool looking pair of $20.00 sunglasses. Then wrap em and give them to her as a gift with a smile.

1. See if she notices they are not that expensive....

2. Observe her reaction. See if she is selfish, rude, irritating, happy, smiling, "thanks you", "hates you for buying them" or whatever. This reaction can tell you what kind of person she is.

Hellooooooo Baba2,

Where have you been? I hope all is OK in your World. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

You share a lot of my sentiments. In fact, I actually said to her that she could get a cheap pair of polarized sun glasses. She said you cannot touch a pair of polarized sun glasses for under $300. Now, I know this is not true.

Anyway, glad to hear from you.

CTJ -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You did know how important they were to her. In essence, that they were part of the foundation her happy healthy life was built on. But you valued the $400 more than that?

I just want to make sure we're both looking at the ramifications here. To her, they were important enough to pay the $400 plus the extra money related to the furniture.

To put it another way... It's quite possible that those sunglasses were more important to her than SF is to you. That much of a significant source of happiness.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now I am sorry, but I must object. This is a little over the top. Sorry, but it is. You know I was not saying that furniture is more important than my W's "foundation of her happy healthy life."

Anyway, while I was writing this post, my W has our S call me and ask when I am getting home. I talk with S for a while and then say good-bye. I hang up. My W calls back and says, "So, you are not talking to me now! You hung up on me." I said, "I was talking to our S and did not know that you wanted to talk to me. After our last phone call, when you hung up on me, I did not know you wanted to talk to me." She said, "Yeah, I said bye and I told you that I was going 10 times." I just stayed silent and said, "what did you need?" She said, "I need to know if we should eat without you." I said, "Yes, I told you I was going to be late Monday and Tuesday." She said, "OK." I said, "Good-bye." She said, "good-bye."

I will go home and continue the plan. I will tell her that it hurt me when she hung up on me. You can see from what I wrote, that I am dealing with a shifting POV that feels almost unpenetrable. She did not say good-bye, nor did she say it 10 times. It is becoming more and more unreasonable to expect me to be able to understand and cope with her POV when it is so distant from reality. I cannot help bringing reality into it because this is too frustrating. She did not say she was hanging up 10 times. If she actually thinks this, than maybe it is time to get her more professional help.

EL