Whose reality? Yours or hers? Reality is POV. People watch Janet Jackson's half-time show and some see accident, and others see intentional.

Does your wife have trouble apologizing when SHE thinks she has made a mistake? Is it possible that the call from your S and W were her way of trying to close the gap that she contributed to? Even though the incident was not your fault (or anyone's fault), could it have been an opportunity to say something like, "I wish I could get away to eat with you guys, but I can't. I am sorry we got into a thing before, we'll figure out a solution to this?"

He Extremely lost...

Your posts continue to make me sad.

Your last line was this: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I cannot help bringing reality into it because this is too frustrating. She did not say she was hanging up 10 times. If she actually thinks this, than maybe it is time to get her more professional help.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is it possible for you to disconnect yourself at all from her? It sounds like a lot of your peace is determined by whether or not she recounts the past accurately, or whether or not she does things "right".

Maybe you can distance yourself from her emotionally a little bit, without losing any of your kindness towards her.

The more you cling to her opinion of you and of events that have transpired, the more it is going to make you angry when she does, says, or recalls something "wrong". And you are going to fight about it.

Remember, she has been seriously wounded. (Not to deny that you have as well). She is not here, learning how to make things better--so change is only going to happen as she responds to YOUR changes, and that is going to take time.

You are entitled to your opinion that the glasses are not worth 400.00. Your wife is entitled to her opinion that they ARE worth 400.00. ANd she did NOT go out and buy them, despite the fact that she wanted to, out of respect for YOU. That's huge!

You can choose to focus on the things that will give you hope, or the things that frustrate and anger you. (And even those can be reduced if you remind yourself that she has been doing these things because they've WORK at making her feel better in the past).

Be the kind of man that is very difficult to anger, argue with, or provoke. Eventually, it will subside.

If you are having a hard time extricating your emotions from her, maybe individual counseling for you wouldn't be a bad idea.

What have you made of all the materials on this website? Have you read "HisNeeds Her NEeds" and "LOveBusters?" Any interest in attending a seminar, or buying one of his seminars on tape?

She isn't likely to change any time soon. for a while, your focus ought to simply be on YOURSELF, not her. (ex. Okay, I'm starting to get mad now. To protect myself, I'm going to get off the phone and politely hang up.... Okay, I'm feeling liek she is distorting the facts, and I'm getting angry. I'm going to leave for a while and do something that is positive for me, so that I can forget about this... Okay, she's treating me unkindly, I'm going to excuse myself and walk out of the room. IF she follows me, I'm going to tel her that I wish to have some space from this conversation for a while. If she refuses to give it to me, I will leave for a while."

Good luck, EL.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now I am sorry, but I must object. This is a little over the top. Sorry, but it is. You know I was not saying that furniture is more important than my W's "foundation of her happy healthy life."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand that you had no intention of saying that furniture is more important than your W's "foundation of her happy healthy life." The question is whether or not those glasses mean that to HER.

On the hanging up thing...

There's a few possibilities I can see.

The first is that she intended to say it, but never got the words out. That is often the case. We intend to do something and later it appears to us that we did it. Then we find out (sometimes) that we never did it at all. It can be very confusing.

The second is that since the phone call, the entire thing has been rewritten in her head. People tend to do that with emotional situations without thinking.

The third is that she said it, but you never heard it.

The four is that since the phone call, the entire thing has been rewritten in your head. I discount this theory because you were interested in maintaining an accurate report, so probably kept better track of how things happen.

And then, from a third party POV:

The fifth thing is that you could have lied to me at any given point from your first post, to pieces of additional posts. In taking hearsay evidence, I have to take all of it with a grain of salt and a caveat emptor. Doesn't seem likely that you are lying. But... It's possible.

Extremely Lost

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I will go home and continue the plan. I will tell her that it hurt me when she hung up on me. You can see from what I wrote, that I am dealing with a shifting POV that feels almost unpenetrable. She did not say good-bye, nor did she say it 10 times. It is becoming more and more unreasonable to expect me to be able to understand and cope with her POV when it is so distant from reality. I cannot help bringing reality into it because this is too frustrating. She did not say she was hanging up 10 times. If she actually thinks this, than maybe it is time to get her more professional help. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let’s talk about this for a moment. *chuckles* I read this and I thought “You poor thing, you keep getting beat up about the same issue and maybe no one is listening to you enough.”

So, I want to listen and I really want to understand. Assume for a moment that I’m telling you the truth when I say that I’m truly, absolutely confused by this statement: It is becoming more and more unreasonable to expect me to be able to understand and cope with her POV when it is so distant from reality.

Let me explain why I’m confused. I honestly (and I mean this humbly) can’t figure out why it matters. Let’s just assert, for the sake of the discussion, that I believe that your view of reality is 100% objective and true. By that, I mean if we recorded the call or had you both on camera that is what I would observe. I still don’t understand why her recall is so important.

What it “feels” like to me is that you are looking for something but I don’t know what. Are you looking for validation of your point of view? That you did, in fact, get it 100% correct? Or, are you looking for a mechanism to point out to her that she’s wrong in the hopes of .. accomplishing a goal? Is the goal an apology? Finding a workable way to deal with situations? Or, something else (you tell me)?

If there was a way to find a workable, pleasant, relationship even though her reality differs from yours or the truth, would her reality STILL be a problem?

Or, is it that you heartily believe that until you experience the same thing in the same way or REALITY together you can’t possibly find a workable relationship?

So, let’s take this away from this one issue and talk in general (though feel free to cart out examples). Tell me why it’s so important that you can agree on reality. What do you hope to accomplish by having your POV’s synchronized to that extent?

I struggle with this because I don’t tend to view the world like that – that people have different POV’s that can differ entirely and wildly from mine is neither a surprise or a barrier in my relationships (I state that so you know where I’m “coming from” because I truly don’t get it.)

Mys

Hey guys,

I realized I forgot to post my last post before I left last night. I see there was a lot of action after I was gone. Anyway, I got home last night and the first thing I did was tell my W, "Since we were given specific homework from the MC, I need to tell you that when you hung up on me today, it really hurt me." She said, "OK. Well, it really hurt me that you were not supportive of me. I spent 45 minutes looking for my sun glasses and I was upset." I left it at that and said nothing.

Later on in the evening, I said, "I love you and I do not like us not getting along. I am your biggest fan and friend. I love you very much." We kissed and she said, "You are were right, it is my fault and I should have to deal with not having them. Maybe I will by them out of my account." I said, "Whatever you want, I cannot tell you what to do with your account."

You see, about 5 months ago, my mom realized we were having troubles. My mom suggested that my W may not be feeling complete because she used to work two jobs and now she is a SAHM. Even though my W handles our checking account (her insistance), she does not feel like she has her own money. So I talked with my W and agreed to give her a set amount of money and an amount per month for her to open her own checking account. I agreed that I never wished to see this account, nor did I not want to know what she spent the money on. I told her that if she bought something out of this account and was excited about it and wanted to share it with me, it would be her decision, but I never would ask her about it, nor would I tell her what to do with it. This was a way to build some trust and to give my W further feeling of security. My W at first said, "yeah, right, now you are going to be like - that should have come out of your account." I told her I would not do this. I have pretty much stuck to this since she opened her account. She has spent money out of it, but I do not know all that she bought from it. I believe I have done very well with this agreement. So, maybe this is something we can build on since it has worked out well. This is the account my W is now saying she might use to buy her replacement sun glasses, and there is nothing I could do about it as per our agreement. I am fine with this.

Myschae -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I’m trying to make you very, very difficult to argue with. Believe me, it’s possible.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Keep up the good work. I need ALL the help I can get. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Sure, that sounds like a plan. I don’t think you or your wife has been doing your HW assignment this week. So, it’s time to ramp up on that, don’t you think?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for the kick in the butt! You are correct that we have not told eachother something hurts, but there is a good reason for it. Until now, nothing really hurt either of us since MC.

CTJ -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The same reason a lot of people put money into MC's, actually. Chronic pain causes people to do lots of quirky things, if they think they have found the one and only source of relief.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lets agree to disagree here. Besides, insurance helps cover the costs of MC and things.

Telly -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think you are in a lot of pain right now. You feel unappreciated, misunderstood, belittled and blamed (based on how you have described things throughout this post).

Those are yucky feelings to have all at once.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right. It is not a good thing to have all these emotions running loose.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I wonder what kind of yucky feelinngs your wife must be having these days to act the way she does? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My W is the kind of person that is pretty guarded about her feelings and emotions. She does not really offer how she is doing. When I ask her, it is like pulling teeth. I try to be receptive, but it is hard when you are left to guess a lot of the time. As the MC says, filling in the blanks is a dangerous thing to do and is quite destructvie to a M.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Keep being gentle with her. It's great that you have been able to rise above your feelings in many instances, but sounds like she isn't quite there yet.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You give me a lot of credit, and I thank you for this, but I am still making mistakes all over. The difference is that I am now more aware and can see these mistakes after I make them. I do hope my W gets to the point of rising above some of her feelings as well.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Keep up the good work EL. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you. Very supportive. Thank you.

Snoopwell -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> $400 is a hell of a lot for sunglasses. A few people posted something about being right, vs. being happy. Unless it would cause harm to your S, find a way to do it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for the insight. One of the issues is that the neighbors are even starting to realize things. Some of the neighbors say to me, "Why do you give her so much?" or "Why don't you say no some times?" If they are starting to see this than it must be pretty obvious. I too got my W a luxury car last year. We are getting nice furniture, just built a really nice patio and got a hot tub with it.

Baba2 -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Hey, I got an idea! Go out and purchase a really cool looking pair of $20.00 sunglasses. Then wrap em and give them to her as a gift with a smile.

1. See if she notices they are not that expensive....

2. Observe her reaction. See if she is selfish, rude, irritating, happy, smiling, "thanks you", "hates you for buying them" or whatever. This reaction can tell you what kind of person she is. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Baba, that is a very good idea. I had thought about that. I am not going to do it though. My W is perfectly capable of getting herself out of this one. You see, my W has changed from earlier in the relationship. I know deep down she is a kind and thoughtful person. She is not totally selfish or into herself. Sometimes she acts this way, but it is not her. I really say this and do feel I am not making excuses for her. I think she feels hurt (like me) and in a selfdefense mode is looking out for herself more than she used to. I believe this is situation driven, not personality driven.

Take care all,

EL

Good thoughts, Mys. I think I'll forbear, after EL gets a chance to respond, and move on to this exercise.

Wow, I am behind. Let me catchup and answer your questions...... While I was posting my first post this AM, I got blitzed..... Hold on....

Hi, I've just been reading the recent posts.

Others seem to be helping you with things pretty well, so I'll just hit a point that jumped out at me reading several of your posts at once.

I am truly shocked at how disrespectfully you talk about your wife here, specifically how you continually jump to disrespectful conclusions about her and about what is going on in her head.

Given how important accuracy of presenting information is to you, I really think you need to re-examine how you talk about her even when you're just venting on this forum. It's pretty certain that she's seeing at least some of this coming through in your behavior to her, and I don't blame her one bit if she thinks you're irrational and controlling if you argue about reporting minor facts accurately while at the same time you present your own assumptions about her as facts. If you want sticking to plain facts to be a part of your discourse with her, you need to work on that yourself.

The following can work pretty well:

I observed... (Here you can only put in things that are physically measurable phenomena that would be observable to anyone present.)

And I thought... (Here is where you put in what you were thinking when you observed the above.)

And I felt...about it. (And here is where you put in your feelings.)

For example, you said some pretty ugly stuff about your wife having no respect for your work, which you have absolutely no business saying unless she has said exactly, "I have no respect for your work."

Using the above, it might come out something like:

I observed that she yelled at me on the phone while I was at work. I thought that she must understand how important professional atmosphere is for me when I'm at work, so I concluded that her behavior was a statement of not caring about that. I feel hurt and angry about it.

Do you see the difference? When you put things this way, you have to stop and seperate out what happened from your thoughts about it. There is no basis whatsover to conclude that she does not respect your work -- that was only a process in your own head. Since you care about reporting things accurately, you need to truthfully report this as what went on in your head, not as something that took place outside it when you have no proof of that.

OK, I am a bit frustrated because I was close to finally posting after answering all of you and this website lost my reply page. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I have to continually keep loggin in. Be patient, I will write it all again. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

EL

It helps if you 1) type in word adn then copy it in (which I never actually do) or 2) highlight the entire text and hit "ctrl C" before you try to post it, so that you know you can then hit "ctrl V" into a new post and all your test will reappear.

I hate losing my posts. Grrrrr.

OK, Here goes. (AGAIN <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> )

Snoopwell-

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Does your wife have trouble apologizing when SHE thinks she has made a mistake? Is it possible that the call from your S and W were her way of trying to close the gap that she contributed to? Even though the incident was not your fault (or anyone's fault), could it have been an opportunity to say something like, "I wish I could get away to eat with you guys, but I can't. I am sorry we got into a thing before, we'll figure out a solution to this?" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, my W does have trouble apologizing or admitting when she makes a mistake. I do like your ending sentence.

Telly -

Sorry for making you sad. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Is it possible for you to disconnect yourself at all from her? It sounds like a lot of your peace is determined by whether or not she recounts the past accurately, or whether or not she does things "right".
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My issue on this particular subject, is not that my W has a different POV, or cannot understand reality. It is that she changes reality to suit how she feels and to make her more of a marter. She uses this technique to prove her POV over mine. Since, at times, she sees I am right on something and she has difficulty admitting this (especially with the shape of our current M), she totally makes things up that were definitely not part of any conversation. This is so blantently done that it really starts irritating me. This is what I mean when I say that I can't deal with her with any set of rules for a conversation because she steps beyond any normal rules of engagement and actually makes things up that were not there. IF someone makes things up after a conversation happened, and then they commit these made up things into their reality, what chance does a person have of "getting in their head" to try and understand them. I am not privy to the made up info until it is used to unload on me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Maybe you can distance yourself from her emotionally a little bit, without losing any of your kindness towards her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I find this difficult to do, distancing myself emotionally without loosing the kindness.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Remember, she has been seriously wounded. (Not to deny that you have as well). She is not here, learning how to make things better--so change is only going to happen as she responds to YOUR changes, and that is going to take time.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand. It is just hard not to get frustrated.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You are entitled to your opinion that the glasses are not worth 400.00. Your wife is entitled to her opinion that they ARE worth 400.00. ANd she did NOT go out and buy them, despite the fact that she wanted to, out of respect for YOU. That's huge!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right there. I did not even consider this fact. Thanks for bringing it up.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You can choose to focus on the things that will give you hope, or the things that frustrate and anger you. (And even those can be reduced if you remind yourself that she has been doing these things because they've WORK at making her feel better in the past).
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Another great point. I have not looked at it this way before. Thanks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Be the kind of man that is very difficult to anger, argue with, or provoke. Eventually, it will subside.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am trying, but I am human, I make mistakes.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What have you made of all the materials on this website? Have you read "HisNeeds Her NEeds" and "LOveBusters?" Any interest in attending a seminar, or buying one of his seminars on tape?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have read the books, filled out the questionaires and have some tapes. My W made an attempt at filling out the questionaires, but did not get too far. She tried to read HN/HN but stopped because she said, "I do not agree with MB. I do not think everything leads to an affair." Well, I am surprised at her having said this since we also have an SF issue.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She isn't likely to change any time soon. for a while, your focus ought to simply be on YOURSELF, not her. (ex. Okay, I'm starting to get mad now. To protect myself, I'm going to get off the phone and politely hang up.... Okay, I'm feeling liek she is distorting the facts, and I'm getting angry. I'm going to leave for a while and do something that is positive for me, so that I can forget about this... Okay, she's treating me unkindly, I'm going to excuse myself and walk out of the room. IF she follows me, I'm going to tel her that I wish to have some space from this conversation for a while. If she refuses to give it to me, I will leave for a while."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will try. Thanks.

CTJ -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I understand that you had no intention of saying that furniture is more important than your W's "foundation of her happy healthy life." The question is whether or not those glasses mean that to HER. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am glad you understand. Evidently, the glasses were not as meaningful when we discussed things later.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The first is that she intended to say it, but never got the words out. That is often the case. We intend to do something and later it appears to us that we did it. Then we find out (sometimes) that we never did it at all. It can be very confusing.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe, but we actually have a very routine ending to our phone conversations. This differing from the norm, makes it noticable.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The first is that she intended to say it, but never got the words out. That is often the case. We intend to do something and later it appears to us that we did it. Then we find out (sometimes) that we never did it at all. It can be very confusing.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is probably what is going on.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The third is that she said it, but you never heard it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe, giving her the benefit of the doubt, but I do not really think so.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The four is that since the phone call, the entire thing has been rewritten in your head. I discount this theory because you were interested in maintaining an accurate report, so probably kept better track of how things happen.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right, I have not really re-written anything. I wanted to write out exactly what happen to get other perspectives on it. Something I have not yet mentioned to Mys, I have the same degree as her H. We are both Aerospace Engineers. She would most likely be the first to tell you just how "fact" based we are.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The fifth thing is that you could have lied to me at any given point from your first post, to pieces of additional posts. In taking hearsay evidence, I have to take all of it with a grain of salt and a caveat emptor. Doesn't seem likely that you are lying. But... It's possible.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I suppose I could have. This would not make any sense, because it would be a waste of time. There is no logic in doing this. If I were to do this to win over the support of people I do not know, this would be sad.

Myschae -

First off, thanks for trying to understand again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Let me explain why I’m confused. I honestly (and I mean this humbly) can’t figure out why it matters. Let’s just assert, for the sake of the discussion, that I believe that your view of reality is 100% objective and true. By that, I mean if we recorded the call or had you both on camera that is what I would observe. I still don’t understand why her recall is so important. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You see, for me and our situation it is not about her recalling reality as much as not adding the "make believe." Let me give you a very simple example that is not something that has happened, but something you can then use as a tool to use for understanding the other situations I am talking about.

Example: Say my W and I are shopping at the grocery store and I am pushing the cart with our S in it. My W loves to shop off lists and is doing all the shopping, I am just pushing the cart. I see something that I want, and I grab it off the shelf and put it into the cart. My W says, "Thats not on the list. It is going to be a lot more expensive when we check out." She lets it go. I leave the one thing in the cart, but do not add anything else. We get home and later, my W is talking to a neighbor about their days. My W mentions that we went shopping, but it was way more expensive than usual because her H put about 10 things in the cart that was not on the list. Now do you see what I am getting at. It is not about her recalling reality correctly, as much as making up things that clearly were not real and are a bit unfair. This is done to beef up one's own POV. Some people do this all the time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What it “feels” like to me is that you are looking for something but I don’t know what. Are you looking for validation of your point of view? That you did, in fact, get it 100% correct? Or, are you looking for a mechanism to point out to her that she’s wrong in the hopes of .. accomplishing a goal? Is the goal an apology? Finding a workable way to deal with situations? Or, something else (you tell me)?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My goal is for her to not make up stuff to try and make her POV look better. This not only hurts me, it is degrading.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If there was a way to find a workable, pleasant, relationship even though her reality differs from yours or the truth, would her reality STILL be a problem?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No problem, as long as it was not riddled with make believe.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, let’s take this away from this one issue and talk in general (though feel free to cart out examples). Tell me why it’s so important that you can agree on reality. What do you hope to accomplish by having your POV’s synchronized to that extent?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Our POVs do not have to be synchronized, just not literally riddled with lies or fabrications to make our own POV look worse, stupid or wrong.

I hope you are seeing what I mean now.

Thanks, Mys.

Mineownself -

Thanks for posting and calling me out on things when you feel I am not respecting my W.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am truly shocked at how disrespectfully you talk about your wife here, specifically how you continually jump to disrespectful conclusions about her and about what is going on in her head.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am truely sorry, I do not mean to show any disrespect to anyone, especially my W. Sometimes I get caught up in the emotional thing and need to vent. But mark my words, I do not mean to knowingly disrespect the woman I truly love. Regarding the conclusions, it is unfortunate that I am usually left having to draw conclusions at all. I wish she would just tell me what she is thinking or feeling.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Given how important accuracy of presenting information is to you, I really think you need to re-examine how you talk about her even when you're just venting on this forum. It's pretty certain that she's seeing at least some of this coming through in your behavior to her, and I don't blame her one bit if she thinks you're irrational and controlling if you argue about reporting minor facts accurately while at the same time you present your own assumptions about her as facts. If you want sticking to plain facts to be a part of your discourse with her, you need to work on that yourself.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fair enough, if I expect things to get better in my M, I must be open to bad things that I may be doing as well. I take your point.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> For example, you said some pretty ugly stuff about your wife having no respect for your work, which you have absolutely no business saying unless she has said exactly, "I have no respect for your work."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is based upon multiple examples that I did not list. I do take your point though. I am sure it also included my frustrations over FEELING this way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do you see the difference? When you put things this way, you have to stop and seperate out what happened from your thoughts about it. There is no basis whatsover to conclude that she does not respect your work -- that was only a process in your own head. Since you care about reporting things accurately, you need to truthfully report this as what went on in your head, not as something that took place outside it when you have no proof of that.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fair enough. I will try to do this better. Please feel free to hit me over the head when you feel I am doing this again. - Thank you.

Thanks everyone. I am sorry this took me so long to post. Today my W has called me twice and we have had pretty good conversations. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Take Care,

EL

El--

Initial thoughts... Looks good. Will wait for Mys's post before I post my own thoughts. She usually takes a better tack.

EL,

My main concern after your last post is your efforts to control your wife's POV. Let's say she does live in a fantasy world, or clings to her beliefs of how events occurred...what right do you have to take that from her, and how will it make her regard you if you change her outlook?

Take your grocery example. I think it's fine to say something like, "I recall adding the XYZ that was not on our list, but what else did I get?" If it's that important, at least that way she may come to the conclusion on her own. Otherwise, I'd let it drop, if its regarding something unimportant. Let her know how you feel, and if it's important negotiate.

You don't want to disrespect her by trying to change (control) her. Remember the Serenity Prayer.

Its not my W's POV that I am asking to change. It is the made up additions she adds afterwards to try and help her POV. Maybe we are saying the same thing here. Maybe if she feels listened to more, she would not feel the need to "make up" things to help her POV.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have not yet mentioned to Mys, I have the same degree as her H. We are both Aerospace Engineers. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*just silently shakes her head and then mutters* …figures…

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> First off, thanks for trying to understand again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, thank YOU for being willing to explain again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is done to beef up one's own POV. Some people do this all the time. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you, now I have a very clear picture of what happens that bothers you but I’m still a bit fuzzy on exactly why.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My goal is for her to not make up stuff to try and make her POV look better. This not only hurts me, it is degrading. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Can you describe what’s degrading about it?

I’ll tell you why I’m asking. I do stuff like this all the time.. and I listen to it all the time and it really doesn’t bother me. Certainly, I’ve never felt degraded by this sort of situation. I really have no basis for understanding what specifically about it bothers you. If she ‘made up’ things that showed you in a more positive light would that be acceptable? Is it just the negativity? Or, is it the inclusion of anything that isn’t “real” that bothers you?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> No problem, as long as it was not riddled with make believe. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I smiled as I read this. Have you ever read the comic “Calvin and Hobbes”? (if you haven’t go find a few examples of it) It’s about a boy and his stuffed tiger (which he believes is real) and the situations in which he finds himself. My world is very much like that. Things happen that have richer meanings and implications sometimes than what is probably factual. Still, I consider myself pretty grounded. (We won’t give my H a vote, mmkay?)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Our POVs do not have to be synchronized, just not literally riddled with lies or fabrications to make our own POV look worse, stupid or wrong.

I hope you are seeing what I mean now. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I have a very clear understanding of the communication style you’re referring to. I think it’s very close to my natural way of speaking, actually. I don’t consider myself a liar or particularly given to fabrication. I just .. experience things differently. And, often, when I talk I tend to emphasize things by assigning ridiculous amounts of scale to things. I also tend to assign not only ridiculously scaled values, I often make them exceedingly precise (instead of saying “We spent 10,000 dollars more than we should have!” I’ll say “We spent $10,420.28 more than we should have!” when we really spent like $20 or something.) I do make a concerted effort to refrain from that at certain times.. but when I’m upset is generally when that side of me really comes out. Still, I am fairly successful with communicating with people and building cooperation.

I suppose I irritate a few folks along the way. I am not trying to upset people (honest) and I do get some rather odd looks on occasion. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I don’t really expect people to take me literally. It’s just my way of relating scale and emotion into conversation without always using feeling words.

Just from my point of view, I’m not sure it’s something about myself I’d be comfortable changing. It’s very much a method of communication and expression. I’d feel somehow .. stifled.. if I couldn’t express myself comfortably. I assume your wife didn’t develop this habit yesterday.. has she always been like this? Is it possible you didn’t notice so much before because there was a more positive association for you?

What if this is just part of your wife’s core personality? How bad is it for you? Could you learn to take what she says less literally? Give me an idea of the difficulty level for you.

I think it used to bother my H. He never really understood what I meant when I said “I’m furious.” was that mildly angry or really furious… I’m not entirely sure how he learned to cope but he’s managed. I suppose part of that is now I give him a scale. (just thinking out loud)

Mys

Interestingly enough, the made up additions may be part of her POV. Some people think in emotion more than in "fact." To use your example, she may only remember the emotion of you putting something in the grocery cart. It may have "felt" given the circumstances that you were putting 10 things in the cart. (For instance, you commented on a number of things you "should get sometime.") If you were to compare the list to the receipt, it could be that she would be utterly shocked.

But of course, she would also be thoroughly offended for having to justify her POV.

It's that kind of scenario that makes me say there is no reality, only different POV.

Oddly enough, your W seems to have a little of Myschae and a little of me in her.

She seems to speak in Myschae's exaggerated terms. But she seems to react in my exaggerated fashion.

She may also be a real venter. She may have a real need to be able to speak in these grand emotional terms to you, in order to feel she's expressed herself.

My W and I are working through an issue, related to this. (I know, she and I have a lot of these little issues.) When she communicates something emotionally, she tends to use a lot of extreme terms: "I hate that person, they always snub me, they never smile, I always trie to be nice to them..." etc...

Honestly, it drives me crazy, because it sounds like my W has gone pyschotic and is blowing reality way out of proportion.

You may be hitting a similar kind of communication barrier.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She seems to speak in Myschae's exaggerated terms. But she seems to react in my exaggerated fashion. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I’m really odd in the way I react. For example, the calmer I appear, the more serious the situation is. If I’m ranting, raving, and exaggerating like crazy the chances are I’ll calm down and things will blow over. If I’m very quiet, calm, and determinedly nonchalant, then it’s time to choose between the scuba gear and the stereo.

I expect it’s usually the opposite in most people.

Let’s take a moment in sympathy for my poor H’s plight. The poor man had to deal with “Well, how was I supposed to know? I saw how you reacted to <minor incident> so I figured <major crisis> would send you over the edge. Who gets MORE rational when they’re really upset, anyway?!” Poor guy.

Mys

Hi, I really feel she is distorting the truth in many ways. This has a name for it. It is called "cognitive dissonence" or something. We learned about it in Psychology class. I will look up the concept for you if I can find info on it.

But basically what I remember is that everybody distorts the truth. There is a "dissonence" between rational reality and fantasy.

There are many purposes of this dissonence. To act as a "cushion from the harsh reality of real rational life", to add to a person's ego strength in thier own minds, "to make life more interesting and storylike" etc.

Basically this "cognitive dissonence" happens WITHIN, not WITHOUT the person. So they themselves may not even be aware of it.

If my theory and teaching is as I remember it, fitting you in here would be like "trying to point out her cognitive dissonence" each and every time she does it.

Like forcing her to "lose the $400.00 sunglasses and see reality", you are "forcing her to take off her rose colored glasses" each time you try and "correct her back to the truth" This would feel painful for her to be dragged back from her comfortable "cognitive dissonence".

She wants and needs the cognitive dissonence for a reason. We can find out the reason so you can understand. If you understand this, you may be able to (easily)completely change your behavior (from the inside) towards her and address this issue in a new way.

Now the first question is the TONE of her particular "cognitive dissonence" as being negative toward you. Why is she negative toward you in her "fantasies and distortion of truthful events".....why this negative pattern? Is the dissonence only negatively directed at you or does she exagerate or distort other events with other people? The kids?

(If you could only keep her in a "positive dissonence fantasy world" instead of a "negative fantasy world", then you would be OK, for instance if you heard her on the phone telling her fried Jane what a fabulous lover you were that you could make love to her three times last night! Or telling Joe from the meeting how brilliant her husband's mind was that he found a solution for your backyard deck so easily, or her pastor that your marriage was the best life she could ever have imagined, or her friend Bubba, that her husband was the best barbecuer this side of the Missisippi and could easily win prizes for his tender slow cooked ribs.....)

I am only half kidding here. I see mainly my own husband's assetts, not his deficiets. I always brag on his good points to others. And to myself. I rarely see any flaws he has due to my "positive cognitive dissonence" toward him. A girlfriend once pointed out some of my husband's flaws. (rude!) and I really had not seen those myself. Nor do I care if he has flaws, flaws make a person loveable. You here on MB have seen our struggles but these have very little to do with character flaws on his part or me putting him down.

***So I wonder what her deal is on being negative and looking at you from her "negative sunglasses"? ****

We will explore this.

I have to search some things out now on Cognitive Dissonence. It was around 1976 or 1978 when this idea was popular in psychological circles.

I remember the teacher was teaching about "perception".

One person percieves reality one way.

Second person percieves reality a bit differently.

Third person distorts and changes reality in thier mind.


Ok, I will search out the term for ya....

Baba--

Thanks for bringing in Cognitive Dissonance... Further fun facts about cognitive dissonance... Having your coginitive dissonance disrupted can be one of the most unpleasant experiences anyone has. Cognitive dissonance is often the result of reality not fitting in with your perception of reality. Typically this relates to self-perception, but it also relates to perception of others.


Essentially, cognitive dissonance is what I was trying to tell you about 50 pages back where we were discussing changing someones perception of you. Cognitive dissonance is what you are fighting against. Cognitive dissonance is part of the reason your W says, "But that was family wedding, this is a friends wedding" despite the fact that your behaviour would have been good to go anywhere.