EL:

Ever think that her friends are important to her? Important enough to have Bunko & hot-tubbing despite being sick?

Do you always dissect every comment, every action your wife says & takes? Geesh, its enough to drive anyone nuts.

Plus, have you always laid the passive/aggressive crap on her with the cleaning and the silly game over the rings?

If you want the friggin house clean, then clean it for yourself. Great, so you clean it. Did you expect her to give you a medal? Sex? You are not listening to the excellent advice you have already received. You are lost in the minutia of your relationship.

Time to cowboy up dude.

CTJ -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Probably. You're definitely not horrible. I'd be annoyed at this sitch too. But she probably meant what she said: She was going to sit in the hot tub, anyway, and thought it would be fun to have her friends. They quite possibly invited themselves to "keep her company." It's also possible that she didn't want to turn them down due to social dynamics with the group, etc... All sorts of possibilites.

Not that I necessarily would have done things that way, and I would probably be annoyed. But it strikes me as something to not dwell on.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You might be right.

Baba -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Man, that sounds bad. I think you are too wimpy. You helped too much and did not care enough for yourself.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Baba, I hear ya. I think this is a bit wimpy myself. However, I am in a bit of a dilema because, not being wimpy, definitely was not working for us. I am not advocating being wimpy to sustain a M, but I am trying to be nice, meet her needs in the hope of drawing her out of withdrawl. If this is the definition of wimpy than MB tells us to be a wimp in the beginning if the other spouse is not working on improving the M.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If she was sick, she should have cancelled Bunko until another time. The whole thing stinks to me. Having you get the child out of the house so they could party, etc. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Getting our S out of the house was my idea. She would have been fine if I had stayed, but I also promised our S to do something nice since he had to miss his class. Also, I thought it was kind and conciterate to give the girls some space.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I hope she does not play these manipulative games on you very often....
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it is quite difficult to absolutely catagorize something as a "manipulative game." Again, MB has us give our spouses the benefit of the doubt if we are ever hoping of getting the M back on track.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How come you always come last in her life? She is sick and entertains 10 friends yet she cannot even appreciate you half the time? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, this is certainly how I am left to feel and is makes me sad. However, as other posters will point out to me here, to say my W puts me last is a DJ unless she actually says the words, "I put you last." I know this is counter-intuitive to me and you because I think we value actions more than words. I think to you and I, words are cheap.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Next time, just explain to her that "she is sick", so she should cancel Bunko. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is not this easy. She is very head strong. She is also under peer pressure because it is "her" turn to throw the bunco night. If I tried to stop it, no doubt it would be seen as controlling, and I would have to agree that it was controlling. Since, my W is hypersensitive to me as a "controlling" type person, I believe this action would have gotten a very negative result.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I will never understand it. I would never expect my husband to act as you did. Even volunteering to clean up and bring them drinks was wimpy of you, though nice. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I tried to be nice and supportive. If I got into an argument with her in front of the other women, this also would have gotten me an extremely negative response.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But remember, whenever you wimp out and do "something because of her manipulations" or "do something you do not really want to do", you will have lingering resentment afterwards. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is true, however, I have lingering resentment because of how I feel she treated me, not because of what I did. I am actually proud of how I handle this situation. Remember, you are never really a wimp if you know you are in control of your own actions at all times. What I mean by this is that I know I can leave, or stop what I am doing, yet I chose to be nice and supportive. To some this may seem wimpy, to others this may seem to be a supportive H.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This resentment you "brought on yourself" is now lingering. Because you "bent over backwards" for her and you did not really see why you should....since she said she was sick but really was not sick. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, she is sick. It is not a case of her faking being sick. She is very legitimate. She does not feel very good and she looks like she feels miserable.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If a person is "sick", they should cancel a party. That is the only thing to do. You should never have helped her "have the party" if she was sick.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As I mentioned earlier, my W is a very stubborn person. I also am stubborn and I believe her stubborness is one of the things that attracted me to her. She was going to get everything done and throw her gathering if it killed her. I felt it was a kind thing to do to help her out. My helping her out was in no way a "vote of confidence" from me that the gathering should have gone on.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I use the term "Wimp Out" to describe the act of denying reality, denying your own feelings, denying your own boundaries, and doing all this to try to please another person. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for defining your meaning. I do deny my feelings at times (as recommended at this point in MB). I have denied my own boundarys in so much as re-evaluating my boundaries and making a choice. I am trying very hard to please my W. As you can see from my most recent posts, the one thing I am not doing is denying reality.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> No wonder you feel a bit resentful!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you for caring. I do appreciate your posts Baba.

Thanks,

EL

Managing2,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ever think that her friends are important to her? Important enough to have Bunko & hot-tubbing despite being sick?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I do think her friends are important to her. What about the son who could not go to his class he likes once a week? What about her H who has been working a lot and making concessions to help her out? Friends are great, but never a replacement for family.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do you always dissect every comment, every action your wife says & takes? Geesh, its enough to drive anyone nuts.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Read the entire thread. I am trying to improve our communications because currently we do not communicate. I am left to fill in the blanks, and I understand that this is not a good thing for any M. This also drives "anyone nuts."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Plus, have you always laid the passive/aggressive crap on her with the cleaning and the silly game over the rings? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Excuse me? There was no passive/aggressive crap with cleaning. I simply helped out. As far as the rings, I never take mine off except for the one week I described. Because I am in such an emotional roller coaster currently with our M, I removed my ring out of frustration. To me the ring is a symbol of our M. My removing it represented to me, my unsureness for continuing in my M. After calming down and realizing that my M is still the most important thing in my life, I put my ring on. My W still has not put hers on. She took hers off after she saw I had mine off for a couple of days. She never said anything, but she has kept it off. I do not consider this a game and take it very serious.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you want the friggin house clean, then clean it for yourself. Great, so you clean it. Did you expect her to give you a medal? Sex? You are not listening to the excellent advice you have already received. You are lost in the minutia of your relationship.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have not been reading all of my posts either. I do clean the house when I feel it needs to be cleaned. I also do not expect anything for it, other than my W to feel happy and hopefully if I do enough things that make her happy she will feel comfortable to move out of withdrawl (you know that whole love bank thing). Unfortunately, you are correct in your final sentence. We are both lost in the menutia of our relationship. I would love to move past the menutia and really get into things that are serious changes for the better. Unfortunately, no one person can fix an M on their own.

EL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Extremely Lost:
<strong> This is where I got a little irritated. I said, "I thought you were so sick you just wanted the evening to end? Why did you not take the opportunity to just call it a night and go to bed after bunco? This does not make sense to me." She said, "So you are mad at me! I was going to sit in the hot tub anyway, so whats the big deal?" I think - well I don't know, maybe I would like to sit in the hot tub. I say, "It just does not make any sense to me because of how bad you have been feeling for you to extend the night." My W said, "It is no big deal." </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This would have been a good opportunity to work on being more direct in your communication with your wife. You told her you didn't like what she chose and let her see you were irritated. You also expressed yourself in terms of she wasn't thinking how you would think or doing things how you would do them or wanting what you would want. It's pretty easy to sound controlling when you talk that way.

It would have been better to just say you didn't like her extending the evening when she was sick and not able to handle her usual responsibilities, and leave it at that.

Even better would be to ask for what you want: "Honey, when you're sick I want to help you out so you can get well faster, but because I can only help out so much, I'd also like you to cut back a bit until you're well again to make it easier on both of us. I know you already invited the girls back to get in the hot tub -- can you call them and tell them you changed your mind, or can you ask that they stay no more than an hour so we can both wind down and get some rest?"

Extremely Lost

Good Morning!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yesterday and today I was super busy. I could not get a moment to post. However, here is an update. I'll try mineownself's recomendation on expressing this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Blah! Don’t you hate it when life interferes with important things like posting on MB? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I completely relate. Things are finally starting to move forward with the house purchase process and I hope that we can get some things checked off our list and a couple steps closer to getting out of temporary housing and into our own house sooner rather than later.

[short, irrational rant]
One of the major irritations of moving is that when you have something to do, you tend to have 15 things that all have to be done RIGHT NOW THIS INSTANT but then there is usually a ‘lull’ period of time when you’re waiting for things to happen so you can have another 15 things dumped in your lap. Perhaps it’s a matter of poor planning, but it seems that NOTHING I do ever seems to make those 15 things spread out over the lull period to preserve my sanity. I’m convinced “THEY” (whoever ‘they’ are) are doing it on purpose just to vex me!
[/irrational rant off]

****POP QUIZ****

The proper response to the above irrational vent is to:
a) Point out the flaws in my planning and show me the ‘right way’ to schedule. “Well, Mys, if you schedule x THEN y THEN z, see how they all fall into place?”
b) Commiserate with me and offer me chocolate. ”Yikes! I hate it when that happens. It’s obvious the moving companies, insurance agents, sellers, inspectors, and title companies are all in cohesion to drive you crazy. I find the only thing that helps is chocolate!”
c) Completely ignore it and hope it goes away. *sound of crickets chirping* "Did you hear anything?"
d) Shoot me and put me out of my misery. “Your Honor, she was suffering. It was the best thing for her, really.“

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Who said I had to wait for “someday” to look back on all of this and laugh?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So go ahead, hit me over the head and tell me where I am sooooo wrong and horrible. Am I just scrutinizing things to hard or what? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nah, I think you did a nice job.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes, I do think her friends are important to her. What about the son who could not go to his class he likes once a week? What about her H who has been working a lot and making concessions to help her out? Friends are great, but never a replacement for family. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, considering the past is past and cannot be undone, what do you want NOW to feel better about this? I do think you deserve some consideration. What specifically are you looking for in terms of being appreciated? Figure that out and, when your wife is feeling better, ask for it.

The chances are good that your wife noticed all your help and appreciates it – though it might not seem that way because she sounds really ill. She’d probably be willing to express her thanks to you if she knew how. The important part is not concentrating so much on the past that it looks like the only way to “fix” the situation is by being able to travel back in time and undo it all. Proper phrasing in requests helps a lot…

Honey, it’s been a really busy week and we’ve been working on the patio so hard lately. I miss having fun time with the three of us. How would you feel about goofing off this Saturday and possibly going to the Zoo or something while the weather is still nice? I think we all deserve a break, don’t you?

Mys

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">****POP QUIZ****

The proper response to the above irrational vent is to:
a) Point out the flaws in my planning and show me the ‘right way’ to schedule. “Well, Mys, if you schedule x THEN y THEN z, see how they all fall into place?”
b) Commiserate with me and offer me chocolate. ”Yikes! I hate it when that happens. It’s obvious the moving companies, insurance agents, sellers, inspectors, and title companies are all in cohesion to drive you crazy. I find the only thing that helps is chocolate!”
c) Completely ignore it and hope it goes away. *sound of crickets chirping* "Did you hear anything?"
d) Shoot me and put me out of my misery. “Your Honor, she was suffering. It was the best thing for her, really.“

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmm.... Option D sounds like my typical response. Wait... Is that sirens I hear?

Hey gang,

Again this is the second time I have tried to post this morning. For some reason CTJ was posting at the time I was writting and it lost my post?

Mineownself -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This would have been a good opportunity to work on being more direct in your communication with your wife. You told her you didn't like what she chose and let her see you were irritated. You also expressed yourself in terms of she wasn't thinking how you would think or doing things how you would do them or wanting what you would want. It's pretty easy to sound controlling when you talk that way.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right. I realized I was screwing up while in the middle of what I was saying. I do not have the complete set of tools yet to realize BEFORE I get myself into this situation, but atleast I feel more confident in realizing I did this after the fact. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I figured, when I realized I was taking a wrong approach, I would stop, help out by cleaning and then approach the subject later. When I approached it later, my W was still not in the right mind frame to properly discuss it (probably still upset with my initial approach). I ended up just letting it die.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It would have been better to just say you didn't like her extending the evening when she was sick and not able to handle her usual responsibilities, and leave it at that.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wish I had your poise right before I said anything. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Even better would be to ask for what you want: "Honey, when you're sick I want to help you out so you can get well faster, but because I can only help out so much, I'd also like you to cut back a bit until you're well again to make it easier on both of us. I know you already invited the girls back to get in the hot tub -- can you call them and tell them you changed your mind, or can you ask that they stay no more than an hour so we can both wind down and get some rest?" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree this would have been the ultimate if my W would also have taken this to heart. I do not think our M is at the point this would happen right now. I do see this as the goal to get to.

Myschae -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Blah! Don’t you hate it when life interferes with important things like posting on MB? I completely relate. Things are finally starting to move forward with the house purchase process and I hope that we can get some things checked off our list and a couple steps closer to getting out of temporary housing and into our own house sooner rather than later.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Great! Good for you guys. I am happy for you that things are moving along quicker than originally planned. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> [short, irrational rant]
One of the major irritations of moving is that when you have something to do, you tend to have 15 things that all have to be done RIGHT NOW THIS INSTANT but then there is usually a ‘lull’ period of time when you’re waiting for things to happen so you can have another 15 things dumped in your lap. Perhaps it’s a matter of poor planning, but it seems that NOTHING I do ever seems to make those 15 things spread out over the lull period to preserve my sanity. I’m convinced “THEY” (whoever ‘they’ are) are doing it on purpose just to vex me!
[/irrational rant off]
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Everyone needs to rant once in a while. I think the 15 things at the same time is unfortunately the nature of the beast on what you are doing. I do not think there is a way to stretch things out and equally space them, unless you are prepared to live without a phone or electricity or whatever for a while. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ****POP QUIZ****

The proper response to the above irrational vent is to:
a) Point out the flaws in my planning and show me the ‘right way’ to schedule. “Well, Mys, if you schedule x THEN y THEN z, see how they all fall into place?”
b) Commiserate with me and offer me chocolate. ”Yikes! I hate it when that happens. It’s obvious the moving companies, insurance agents, sellers, inspectors, and title companies are all in cohesion to drive you crazy. I find the only thing that helps is chocolate!”
c) Completely ignore it and hope it goes away. *sound of crickets chirping* "Did you hear anything?"
d) Shoot me and put me out of my misery. “Your Honor, she was suffering. It was the best thing for her, really.“
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, well lets see. What to pick, what to pick. Oh, yes, er... No. Maybe... No. OK I guess I'll take B. It shows that I hear you, validate you and offer you a vice all in the same answer. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Who said I had to wait for “someday” to look back on all of this and laugh?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not me. I used to try and laugh in life to get bye, until laughing and joking with regards to my current situation of my M became counter productive. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Nah, I think you did a nice job.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks, I needed to hear that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, considering the past is past and cannot be undone, what do you want NOW to feel better about this? I do think you deserve some consideration. What specifically are you looking for in terms of being appreciated? Figure that out and, when your wife is feeling better, ask for it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess what would mean the most to me is that she starts understanding and learning to accept that I am changing towards someone she can fallin love with all over again. How do you ask for this? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The chances are good that your wife noticed all your help and appreciates it – though it might not seem that way because she sounds really ill. She’d probably be willing to express her thanks to you if she knew how. The important part is not concentrating so much on the past that it looks like the only way to “fix” the situation is by being able to travel back in time and undo it all. Proper phrasing in requests helps a lot…
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know. I realize my personality causes me to look at things with an "all or nothing" thought process. This is not too productive in an M.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Honey, it’s been a really busy week and we’ve been working on the patio so hard lately. I miss having fun time with the three of us. How would you feel about goofing off this Saturday and possibly going to the Zoo or something while the weather is still nice? I think we all deserve a break, don’t you?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I like the way you phrase things. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

OK, I would like to explain a couple of things that happened last night to get some perspectives. First of all, my W is still pretty sick. The poor thing looks so uncomfortable. My W was talking on the phone to her sister and began talking about the potential of going to this upcoming wedding next Friday. Well, it turns out that my W has two fears about this wedding, one is the way I used to act (or react) to her guy friends. The other is an old girlfriend. My W and this girlfriend were kind of close when I met her. They had lived together at one point. When I met my W they were working together. They seemed pretty chummy. When my W became pregnant, this girlfriend turned on her and started acting poorly towards her. This went on for about five months until my W moved with me. Since this time, my W would send this girlfriend X-mas cards each year and never get a response. Well, my W is worried that this girl will be at the wedding and how she will act towards her. She is concerned that she will be caddy towards her and treat her bad. I said, "Honey, I understand your concerns about X ruining the night for you, but why put so much weight into what she thinks? You have a nice family and home. You are smart and have done well for yourself since you were friends with X. I am proud of you. You make me feel like the luckiest man in the World. I will be there for strength and support if it is necessary." She said, "I just do not know if X will be nice, or crappy or make up things, not to my face, but to other people." So I said, "So it is not really bothering you how X may act in front of you, it is more about what she says to others?" She said, "Yes." I said, "Honey, there is no way you can control what she says to others when you are not around. It does not matter if it is at a wedding, or an email she sends or is just walking down the street and bumps into someone. It takes too much energy worrying about things that are always going to be out of your control. All you can do is hold your head up high and be you. Your true friends and family know who you are and like you for you." She said, "You are right." I said, "So we are going to the wedding?" She said, "I guess we'll go." I said, "Thank you." She said, "For what?" I said, "for giving me a chance." She did not say anything.

When we went to bed, I said good night, kissed her and asked if there was anything I could do to help her feel more comfortable, as I feel completely helpless. She said there was nothing I could do. Usually at this point we would both just fall asleep and see each other in the morning. As we lay in bed, my W (out of the blue) says, "You still have issues with your mom and are not close with her." I said, "I am more close to my dad. It all stems back to my childhood. I do not agree with some of the major things my mom has done or how she treated my dad in the past." My W said, "Well you should get over it. You are grown up now." I said, "My issues have nothing to do with how old I am. My whole life my mom has always done things with/for me only if it was convienient for her. If it was not, then she would not care to do something for/with me. My dad went out of his way sometimes to do things with my brother and I." My W said, "I think your resentment with your mom is causing our issues and how you treat me. If you get over this than maybe we can be better." I said, "I gave the MC a 16 page personal summary that I thought summurized most of my issues and where they stem from. In this I included my mom and a lengthy explanation. What I need to do is not work from the beginning (with my mom) and then forward (to my W). I need to work with improving us first and then work backwards." My W said, "I think you need to start with your mom and then move chronologically forward." I said, "when I was at the MC by myself, she also agreed that I needed to work backwards starting with you. Honey, I love you. I know I want to live the rest of my life with you. I also cannot stand that we are not intimate and physical with each other..." She cut me off and said, "I am not having this conversation now!" I said, "and fixing our emotional side, I did not get to finish." She said, "I am not doing this now." I said, "Doing what? We were just talking. Why are you upset and yelling?" She said, "You will not drop it, you keep it going." I said, "You keep saying things to." She said, "I am only responding to things you are saying, am I not going to respond?" I said, "Fine, I am stopping rright now. I feel the same way." She said, "What do you mean?" I said, "You say something and I feel I need to respond." We stayed silent for a little bit and then we had a great conversation. Yes a great conversation. It had nothing to do with our M. It came out that she is in an irritated mood because she is feeling crappy and tired of being sick. I can understand this. We also talked about when each of us was in grade school and other stuff like this. This is the first time we have fallen off the cliff and landed in a net! We turned it around and it became a positive ending. Could you guys give me your take on why and how so I can understand better how to make this a more perminent thing?

I also asked my W after dinner about why she has not worn her wedding ring for a week. She said, "Oh, I took it off because my finger was swelling and keep forgetting to put it on." I siad, "I feel naked with mine off." She said, "So do I, when I remember it, I am down stairs and it is upstairs. With or without the ring, I am still married to you."

So comments, notes, slaps, 2x4s whatever. Help to give me some more in depth understanding of these things from your very different POVs from mine.

Thanks,

EL

Good you are confronting things head on and are not deterred by your wife's usual "put offs". Good, and brave of you. I take back all my "wimpy" comments!

Thanks Baba.

You did great! Absolutely great... I can tell that conversation was great. Do you know why it worked? Because you were having a converstation. You weren't having a debate, you weren't attacking each other. You had a conversation. You listened and talked. She listened and talked.

EL--- I'm proud of you. Conversations like this one were the turning point of my M, on the emotional side. You've still got a lot of rocks ahead of you, but that went very well. (Can you tell I want to build you up on this!!!)

I have a few minor points to throw in, but don't lose the feeling that you did great and this was a good step for you.

Point #1, On your mother. Bring that up at the next MC session where your W and she are together. *And* argue your W's side for her. Why? I see two possible outcomes here. #1, the MC will let you argue your W's side but disagree. In this case, you've lost nothing, but you've shown your W you're willing to stand up for her interests and POV. #2, the MC will let you argue your W's side and will agree. If the MC is swayed by your argument, then you were probably right in the first place. In this case you will have supported your W's interests, and will be actively addressing something she thinks is a problem. Another option is to keep things nice and general. Perhaps say, "After talking about the Mom thing, and thinking about my past marriage, I would like to make an effort on how I relate to close women in my life." Again, you're showing your W that you're willing to address something that is troubling you. This is a good place for you to "die for her."

Point #2, I don't know that there's a good reason to bring up the the "physical" part. You aren't getting that fixed right now, and unfortunately, it's going to be a while. The less you mention of it (now, when it can only pressure and not help), the better off you are. Later, you can bring it up again.


But again... Just keep listenting and understanding, and supporting.

Great to hear about the ring, too:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I siad, "I feel naked with mine off." She said, "So do I, when I remember it, I am down stairs and it is upstairs. With or without the ring, I am still married to you</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Rejoice, rejoice, rejoice... And no more head games! No more speculation on her motives. ;-D If you don't think it's a good time to ask her, than assume the best. That's the kind of attitude you want her to mirror, right?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, well lets see. What to pick, what to pick. Oh, yes, er... No. Maybe... No. OK I guess I'll take B. It shows that I hear you, validate you and offer you a vice all in the same answer. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good! You’re learning. Chocolate is always the right answer. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I guess what would mean the most to me is that she starts understanding and learning to accept that I am changing towards someone she can fallin love with all over again. How do you ask for this? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You don’t want much do you? Well, ok, let’s scale this back a smidge. What would be a tangible action she could do to help you feel more <appreciated, considered, etc>.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So comments, notes, slaps, 2x4s whatever. Help to give me some more in depth understanding of these things from your very different POVs from mine. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it’s great that you recovered. I like the end of the conversation when you talked about how you each kept responding. I can so very clearly picture that. I think that is very much a contributor to why you were able to pick up later and move on. You acknowledged out loud what you were trying to do and how.. it gives her a glimpse on how and what you’re thinking. And gives you the same thing. She was responding, you were responding… you consciously CHOSE to stop doing that. Way to go!

On the subject of the ring, I think it’s great that now you know. It’s not a matter of retaliation on her part but rather that her fingers were swollen (the ring was tight) and then it was always in the wrong location to where ever she was. Do you feel better about it now?

Mys

CTJ -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You did great! Absolutely great... I can tell that conversation was great. Do you know why it worked? Because you were having a converstation. You weren't having a debate, you weren't attacking each other. You had a conversation. You listened and talked. She listened and talked.

EL--- I'm proud of you. Conversations like this one were the turning point of my M, on the emotional side. You've still got a lot of rocks ahead of you, but that went very well. (Can you tell I want to build you up on this!!!)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for the positivness. Our last conversation last night, got close to getting out of hand and into a circular argument (like they used to) and she did start to raise her voice at me. Fortunately, we were able to change directions and recover.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Point #1, On your mother. Bring that up at the next MC session where your W and she are together. *And* argue your W's side for her. Why? I see two possible outcomes here. #1, the MC will let you argue your W's side but disagree. In this case, you've lost nothing, but you've shown your W you're willing to stand up for her interests and POV. #2, the MC will let you argue your W's side and will agree. If the MC is swayed by your argument, then you were probably right in the first place. In this case you will have supported your W's interests, and will be actively addressing something she thinks is a problem. Another option is to keep things nice and general. Perhaps say, "After talking about the Mom thing, and thinking about my past marriage, I would like to make an effort on how I relate to close women in my life." Again, you're showing your W that you're willing to address something that is troubling you. This is a good place for you to "die for her."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good idea, but my W will not be at the next MC session. She has a different medical appointment and cannot make it. So I am going alone.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Point #2, I don't know that there's a good reason to bring up the the "physical" part. You aren't getting that fixed right now, and unfortunately, it's going to be a while. The less you mention of it (now, when it can only pressure and not help), the better off you are. Later, you can bring it up again.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know we are not working on this right now. I am a big person on setting goals and laying out the "big" picture for people. I felt comfortable enough to express my over all goals to my W at that time. I quickly found out that it was not such a great idea or time for this. We recovered and moved on.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Rejoice, rejoice, rejoice... And no more head games! No more speculation on her motives. ;-D If you don't think it's a good time to ask her, than assume the best. That's the kind of attitude you want her to mirror, right?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good point.

Myschae -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Good! You’re learning. Chocolate is always the right answer.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You don’t want much do you? Well, ok, let’s scale this back a smidge. What would be a tangible action she could do to help you feel more <appreciated, considered, etc>. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmmmmmmmm. Lets see, how about giving me some random hugs, or wanting to cuddle to watch TV?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think it’s great that you recovered. I like the end of the conversation when you talked about how you each kept responding. I can so very clearly picture that. I think that is very much a contributor to why you were able to pick up later and move on. You acknowledged out loud what you were trying to do and how.. it gives her a glimpse on how and what you’re thinking. And gives you the same thing. She was responding, you were responding… you consciously CHOSE to stop doing that. Way to go!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, it was weird in a nice way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I still did not like how I was accused of keeping it going, when clearly, both of us were responding to a comment from the other. I also was a little put back by her immediately harsh reaction by the mere mention of my physical desires. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> But, I got to take the small positives and move on from them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> On the subject of the ring, I think it’s great that now you know. It’s not a matter of retaliation on her part but rather that her fingers were swollen (the ring was tight) and then it was always in the wrong location to where ever she was. Do you feel better about it now?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right here. I gave her the opportunity to state any reason she may not be wearing her ring. Based on what she said, (even if she was not telling me the truth), she could not possibly expect me to consider anything other than taking her at her word. I am not saying or assuming she was making something up. It was just a consideration of potential alternatives I was thinking about in my own mind. I do feel better now.

Have a great weekend everyone,

EL

EL--

Bringing it up at any MC session is as good as any other. You can "contemplate" what she had to say as long as you want.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know we are not working on this right now. I am a big person on setting goals and laying out the "big" picture for people. I felt comfortable enough to express my over all goals to my W at that time. I quickly found out that it was not such a great idea or time for this. We recovered and moved on.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not a criticism, just a thought:

You might try to study your W and figure out if she's a "big picture" kind of person. She may be "one day at a time" right now. Don't know...

Anyway... Great recovery, here! No pressing the issue, just saying to yourself "oops" and moving on. Have a great weekend! I hope it all goes very well for you.

Hi EL! I'm glad to read the latest POSITIVE update. Sometimes I think we get so focused on rooting out the weeds that we forget to notice the flowers we are trying to grow. KWIM?

And like others have said...

I did notice the same old communication patterns in that dialogue - but somehow you each were able to take a step back from the brink and speak more intimatley with each other. Think about yourself - was there something that she did or said that allowed you to put down your weapons of trying to "win" or be right?

I think it would be good to think about it and then compliment on it to encourage it in the future.

NOTE: your compliment should not be a subtle jab. For instance - you would not want to say "see how nice a conversation we can have when you don't try to keep it going?" - that would be placing blame squarely in her lap for all the times it has gone bad. A better tact would be " I like how we could share with each other last night. That felt good." and leave it at that. No flavor of "right" or "wrong" or "should" or blame.

Also (and I don't mean to point out the negatives because overall it was great - but i want to help you consistently see them)

When your wife expresses concern over something - your first step should be to empathize and make sure she feels heard - then you can move into encouragement or problem solving.

For example:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I said, "Honey, I understand your concerns about X ruining the night for you, but why put so much weight into what she thinks? You have a nice family and home. You are smart and have done well for yourself since you were friends with X. I am proud of you. You make me feel like the luckiest man in the World. I will be there for strength and support if it is necessary." She said, "I just do not know if X will be nice, or crappy or make up things, not to my face, but to other people." So I said, "So it is not really bothering you how X may act in front of you, it is more about what she says to others?" She said, "Yes." I said, "Honey, there is no way you can control what she says to others when you are not around. It does not matter if it is at a wedding, or an email she sends or is just walking down the street and bumps into someone. It takes too much energy worrying about things that are always going to be out of your control. All you can do is hold your head up high and be you. Your true friends and family know who you are and like you for you." She said, "You are right." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It was very gracious of her to say "you are right". I think that would have been a frustrating exchange for me in that I would have wanted more support for my frustration before hearing that it is not worth it to be frustrated. Though I agree and would probably get to a point where I would agree, I would have wanted more understanding.

Chocolate first before the x, y, z. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Just my thoughts. I'm glad things are looking up and you have some resolution about the ring issue.

lfc

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It was very gracious of her to say "you are right". I think that would have been a frustrating exchange for me in that I would have wanted more support for my frustration before hearing that it is not worth it to be frustrated. Though I agree and would probably get to a point where I would agree, I would have wanted more understanding. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, it’s funny because I did think of my little Pop Quiz this morning when I read that. His response was a bit more “a”-ish than “b”-ish, wasn’t it?

The pop quiz was really meant as a joke.. but now it’s turning into an essay question.

EL, can you turn your “a”ish answer to her concern into a “b”ish answer?

"Honey, I understand your concerns about X ruining the night for you, but why put so much weight into what she thinks? You have a nice family and home. You are smart and have done well for yourself since you were friends with X. I am proud of you. You make me feel like the luckiest man in the World. I will be there for strength and support if it is necessary."

Want to take a stab at it?

Mys

Hey guys,

Thanks for the positive comments. I know one of my own issues is putting time frames to things and it does get me into trouble once in a while, ok, all the time; but, I have started to feel a little down because I have been realizing that it has been 5 months since I have realized the "errors" of my ways and have really been trying to learn and change. I due know my W has tried in some cases to shange as well, though it feels to me as these are small changes (I know this may not be fair to my W and is why I state this is how I feel). I just feel frustrated looking back at where we were, and where we are.

I guess part of this has been brought on by this past Friday. A guy in our neighborhood is having major surgery this Tuesday. After this Tuesday, his life is going to change dramatically. He will not be able to do a lot of the things he currently does, like drink alcohol. Therefore, he wanted to go out with the "guys" in the neighborhood Friday and live it up one last night. Now, I have not really went out like this in a very long time (years). My W has tried to encourage me to do so. I have been resistent because 1) I have been very busy with work and would like to spend any extra time with my family; 2) I see a night out (without my W) as "wasting" a valuable opportunity to grow closer with my W; 3) I feel (and am afraid) it shows my W that I am cool with independently going out without the other and may encourage more of this type of behavior on her end. In my mind, I do not see this as positive.

However, because of my neighbor's "special" situation, I agreed to go. We did go and have a good time. It was definitely funny and made me feel older. We started off sitting around and talking about our families. Around 11:30PM we all were getting tired. One problem that I learned from the night, is that in the beginning and for the first three years of being together, whenever there was another attractive woman around, I really did not notice her much and was infatuated with my W. On Friday, I noticed these attractive women and it bothered me because it basically gave me another example of how we have drifted. I really want to get back to where we were and not really notice "other" attractive women. So this bothered me.

Anyway, on Saturday I had to work and bring our S with me because my W had a board meeting for the neighborhood. I only had to work half the day so this worked out good. We both were finished at the same time. We all grabed a quick lunch together and my W starts explaining some concerns and difficulties she is having from this board. Usually, I freely offer her my opinions, but this time I listened, let her know that I heard her and then gave her some advice coupled with stating that I knew she could handle things and that she would make the right decisions. This ended up being an OK conversation and was one of the biggest all weekend.

The entire weekend was littered with small discussions that could have turned into "bad" discussions, and at times got to an initial raised voice type of heated point on both of our ends, but then we were able to divert things and not go the full distance off the cliff.

We ended up getting my W her replacement pair of sun glasses at my reccomendation because she was complaining about headaches. She thanked me for "letting her" get the sun glasses. I said, "It is both of our monies. I did not 'let you' get the sun glasses. I do not control you. I merely agreed to get them." When we were at the mall getting her sun glasses, it was time to get her a new cell phone as well. She had the same one for four years and her current plan had been over. She picked out what she liked for the same kind of costs she already had. We went and did something else while they were programing her phone. Before we went back to get her phone, our S wanted to play in a kids area in the mall. My W said, "Why don't you take him and I'll go get the phone and then we can meet up?" At first I said, "I thought we were going to get the phone together? Why don't we both take our S and then go get the phone?" She said, "I was just excited, but OK if you want to do it that way." I said, "Look, just because I want to do something different does not mean I control you. You can go and do what you want if you decide to, even if it is not what I would like. So, you go ahead and get your phone. I'll take our S and we'll meet up later."

Now, as many have recomended, I have not pushed or asked much at all for anything in the physical or intimate side of things during this whole 5 months. There has been my occasional offer to her for a back rub and a couple times I asked for SF (once successful and once not successful). We were watching some TV last night and just relaxing. My W kept trying to pick up one of our cats and cuddle with it. This cat did not want to cuddle. My W made a comment about the cat not wanting to cuddle. I saw a perfect opportunity and said, "I would like to cuddle with you." She said, "I know." Then she just continued to watch TV. I was like, OK???? (Thinking in my mind).

I understand that we are not at the point yet of having the physical relationship I want, but I would have hoped we could take baby steps, like her trying to cuddle with me or atleast accept a cuddle offer. I am struggling with where do I think we should be 5 months after, what I consider to be our recovery date. I know it is the age old question of what is a reasonable amount of time before someone can make the decision that things may not change. It is a tough place to be. I am goal oriented and need instructions, definitions and explanations. My W apparently does not need any of this. She mentioned to me that our neighbors had called off their divorce and had not been intimate in 9 months. She then says, they have been intimate the last three nights. She also says, the guy is looking happier than he has been in several months. My answer to this (in my mind is) DUH! How come she is not drawing the connection?

Another thing coming up is this wedding of her friend this Friday. This should be a good opportunity. However, I am pretty nervous about slipping up and doing something, anything that will be reflected upon as negative in my W's mind. I am also sure that my W will not feel like the evening will be (feeling this before hand) or is (feeling this during) fun because of her concerns with my actions. She also has this added pressure of her old girl friend potentially being rude to her.

On another note, when I got home on Friday after work, I mentioned to my W "I was very happy how we were able to have a positive conversation the night before. I was happy how we came close to the brink of a typical argument between us and then we stopped it before it got out of hand and were able to talk about other things and not go to bed mad at each other." My W said, "Oh." After a small period of silence I said, "What are your thoughts or feelings about our conversation last night?" She said, "I don't have any because that is how conversations are supposed to go." This gave me some insite as well as irritated me. It showed me that my W might not understand the concept of encouraging the good behavior you like or want. This is why I have some of the problems I have and feel like I must fill in some of the blanks I do. If my W could actually encourage my behavior that she likes, then I would know that she likes it or wishes for it to continue this way. However, she reacted in a way that she reacts to the negative behaviors as well. She does not really say anything. This is where it becomes confusing to me. She may be feeling that normal or desirable behavior does not need encouragement because it is normal and should be like this anyway and in the big picture she is right. Unfortunately, where our M currently is, positive behavior needs positive reinforcement at this time.

Anyway, questions, comments, reccomendations requested. Keep in mind I am seeing the MC solo tomorrow and will only be able to take into account any advice you can give me today. NO PRESSURE. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

By the way, my W actually wore her wedding ring on Sunday, FINALLY. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Thanks,

EL

Hmm, I noticed that you're still not asking for what you want.

I get the impression that you get frustrated a lot because in certain situations you think your wife should know what you want and do it. Then you get mad when she doesn't. My point is that as long as you don't ask flat out for what you want, you are part of the problem. Reading your mind is not her job.

For example, you don't like that she didn't give you any encouragement for the bedtime conversation that didn't turn into an arguement. But you didn't ask for any. You asked what she thought about it and she honestly told you what she thought. Now you're cranky because she's not thinking what you think she should -- the very definition of being controlling.

How about this: "Ah, I see. You don't think it needs encouragement because it's simply normal adult behavior that we all should live up to. I see it as something to get excited about because it's positive progress. I've been trying very hard to figure out how to be a better husband and I miss the mark a lot in trying to do better, so it would really mean a lot to me if you could say something positive about it when I do get it right like I did last night. It would make me feel great if you did. Do you think you could do that sometimes?"

Hey EL. Sounds like a lot of good things, a few hard things, and then lots of just normal things. Yay for the ring, and the good talks, and the night out w/ your friends, and all the good things.

In MHO, I think it is fine to notice other women, if there isn't much energy put into it. I think it is normal. From what I've read and experienced. I'm sorry that you struggle with the doldrums of real married life though - sometimes not fun. Wouldn't it be great if we could be focused solely on each other in deeply in love all the time with no conflict ever. I'd never get any work done <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

About the control conversations. My H and I have those exchanges all the time. I suggest doing something one way. he suggests it another. I interpret his new suggestion as his way of saying he deosn't think my idea is best and would rather do it another way (which is mostly true). If I am not passionate about doing it my way, I would likely go along with him. But if it happened all the time (which it does) I would be irritated with always feeling like my way isn't the "right" way or is always deficient. I would feel controlled.

So maybe this is a sign that sometimes you might want to intentionally go with your wife's way of doing it as a way of valuing her.

Wait... haven't we had this conversation before? oh yeah - the signs and driving directions... refer to that convo for potential benefits to this plan.

I'm sorry she didn't want to cuddle with you. I'm not sure what else to say about that. Maybe a clarification question would have gotten you a little further... something like "would that be okay with you or is now not a good time?" Just an idea. That's hard though.

hope you have a good week.

lfc

Mineownself -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Hmm, I noticed that you're still not asking for what you want.

I get the impression that you get frustrated a lot because in certain situations you think your wife should know what you want and do it. Then you get mad when she doesn't. My point is that as long as you don't ask flat out for what you want, you are part of the problem. Reading your mind is not her job.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see your point. Here is my thought process... I would like to do something with my W that may be physical, like cuddle or anything else. However, I have multiple things going on in the background of my own mind. These random thoughts are (not in any particular order): 1) She most likely will reject me. 2) She will see my request as pushing. 3) She will see my request as selfish because in her mind I need to change more because I hurt her in the past. 4) Things are going well lately, and maybe if I supress my desires for physical contact, she will eventually grow stronger emotionally with me in our M and eventually offer without my asking because she may desire physical interaction. 5) If I ask for anything right now, I am taking the chance of blowing #4. 6) Maybe she is not attracted to me anymore. 7) She may feel guilty for the general lack of any physical relationship and force herself feeling obligated, which would make me feel worse. 8) She could resent me for merely asking. 9) She becomes easily outraged at merely talking about anything physical most times. These are just the thoughts I can bring up, but many more like these float around in my head.

Now, I know the example you are pointing out is not based on a physical thing, but a response to how we discuss things etc.. My point for listing out my thoughts, concerns and worries based upon an example of asking for something physical is that now when I ask her for anything, I find myself going through the same issues in my head because she has told me she believes that anything I do is to promote more physical interaction between her and I. So if I ask her what you proposed (which I thought was good by the way), my mind will start wandering into the above concerns I listed above as well as, 1) am I saying this in a controling way?; 2) is what I am asking for something my W could consider as controlling?; 3) Is there the potential for her to see me as jealous?; 4) Is there a potential that I may be missing something in her POV that could send us over a cliff?; 5) Will she be able to see what I am saying is meant to be endearing?; 6) Will she get upset about my bringing up something about "our M?"

Now, I understand that I need to ask for what I want. I also understand that there is a right and a wrong time and way to ask. As you can see, I would define my thought process, as I described it above, as "walking on egg shells." Some rules of engagement that I have learned over these last 5 months based upon my W's POV(whether they are fair, wrong, right or reasonable to me) include:

Rules of engagement of my W:

1) Do not talk about our relationship. She has stated that she feels I try to talk about it way too much for her comfort level. She has said, "We talk about our R at MC." This is one hour once a week if we are lucky.

2) Do not talk or ask about SF or anything to do with physical touch. She has stated that she feels I am only after one thing and everything I do is aimed towards improving our physical R.

3) Do not say that I am wrong about anything or have done anything wrong. She has stated that she feels that anything she does is not good enough for me.

4) Do not try and convince her that my POV is more right than hers. As I have learned the hard way through many a post with you nice people, my W has ALWAYS reacted negatively when I do this.

5) I must "hear" what my W is saying. My W has stated that she feels that I do not hear what she is saying most of the time.

Based upon these five rules of engagement, I am finding it extremely difficult to productively work on our M and move forward in a positive direction. I violate #1 because there is no way we will improve if we do not talk about our R and leave it only for one hour in MC. So I look at this as a necessary risk. I violate #2 because this is my biggest EN and it is one of many reasons I desire to improve our M. Hormonally, I cannot help myself sometimes and desire her more than other times. Therefore, once in a while I try to respectfully ask for SF or something physical. Her past issues with this have been, when she has tried to cuddle or whatever with me, she has felt it never had been good enough to "only do whatever." She felt she was dissapointing me to not let it lead to SF in the end. Therefore, she now does not participate in anything so she does not disappoint me. In reality, I am completely dissapointed by her current lack of actions on this front. I have really tried to work on #3, 4, 5. I feel I am making some progress on them and am seeing small results from the positive changes I have been able to make.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> For example, you don't like that she didn't give you any encouragement for the bedtime conversation that didn't turn into an arguement. But you didn't ask for any. You asked what she thought about it and she honestly told you what she thought. Now you're cranky because she's not thinking what you think she should -- the very definition of being controlling. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can see where I came across this way. What I meant was that not having circular arguments is a big thing she desired, as well as me. Therefore, I was kind of surprised that if someone is not getting what they want, and then through efforts on both sides, starts to get what they want, shouldn't a person be encouraging by 1) recognizing the change, and 2) further encouraging that behavior? Its not that I want her to think what I think she should. I am questioning her response and wondering, have we just done something that she really did not think was a "big" deal, when in the beginning it was a major thing she complained about? I am just confused and if she is true in her participating in improving our M, then it is her responsibility to the M to point things out when they are in fact changed into how she wants them. Why is this controling, if you think it is?

LFC -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Hey EL. Sounds like a lot of good things, a few hard things, and then lots of just normal things. Yay for the ring, and the good talks, and the night out w/ your friends, and all the good things.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for posting.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In MHO, I think it is fine to notice other women, if there isn't much energy put into it. I think it is normal. From what I've read and experienced. I'm sorry that you struggle with the doldrums of real married life though - sometimes not fun. Wouldn't it be great if we could be focused solely on each other in deeply in love all the time with no conflict ever. I'd never get any work done . </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This would be great! I'm in! Sign me up. I need a rest. Hmmmmmmmm (thinks for a minute about the fantasy).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> About the control conversations. My H and I have those exchanges all the time. I suggest doing something one way. he suggests it another. I interpret his new suggestion as his way of saying he deosn't think my idea is best and would rather do it another way (which is mostly true). If I am not passionate about doing it my way, I would likely go along with him. But if it happened all the time (which it does) I would be irritated with always feeling like my way isn't the "right" way or is always deficient. I would feel controlled.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I certainly could understand that. My question is, based on what I wrote and how I try to handle things (ie noting our two different POVs, but saying to her to make her own decision) do you feel I handled this in the right way. I tried to maybe drive it home a little too hard by even stating "I do not control you." Is this bad or good. It is kind of adopting some of Baba's suggestion to say "I am not your enemy." By the way, Baba, I said that this weekend. When I say this, I tend not to get a response, but she tend to not attack anyfurther as well. So it could be considered a useful tool. I am sure if I said it too much it would become annoying and loose its usefulness.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So maybe this is a sign that sometimes you might want to intentionally go with your wife's way of doing it as a way of valuing her.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I kind of thought this is what I did. If you are getting something different from me please explain.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Wait... haven't we had this conversation before? oh yeah - the signs and driving directions... refer to that convo for potential benefits to this plan.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, memory lane! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I am trying to use the tools I learned from all of you in these situations. I then come here and post some of the situations to get feedback to if I did things right or wrong. I am still learning.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm sorry she didn't want to cuddle with you. I'm not sure what else to say about that. Maybe a clarification question would have gotten you a little further... something like "would that be okay with you or is now not a good time?" Just an idea. That's hard though.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is easy to say. However, I would think mentioning it once and how I did would have been enough. If I pushed the issue, I would feel like a controlling person. If I pushed the issue further and she agreed to cuddle, it would hold less meaning to me because I would feel like she agreed just to get me to be quiet. Ya know what I mean. I can go on asking for a lot of these things, but her offering or asking for something would send me over the moon and make me smile for a week. I just do not know how or when or if we will get there. I guess I could hold onto the time over a week ago she finally asked me to give her a kneck rub, even though both of us were sick.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">hope you have a good week.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope you have a good week too. I've got the solo MC session tomorrow morning and then a mid-term on Friday (her friend's wedding where a lot of her previous guy friends will be). I probably could not come up with a better test for my trust issues than this. Having said this, it does not mean I am not having difficulty with this and not going bezerk inside. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />


Take Care,

EL

Hey EL...

About your response...

it was kind of a mixed bag. By saying that "I am not controlling you" you are (maybe) directly contradicting her feelings.

i.e. the sunglasses. If I put myself in your wife's shoes and you said that you weren't "letting me" get them, it was our money i would probably think (yeah...well..you were sure into NOT letting me get them in your strong response that I shouldn't get them) I see her as trying to be kind and appreciative, but she is working out of that first exchange when she says you "let" her. Does that make sense?

Another strategy, if it is appropriate, is NOT to contradict her, but rather to SUPPORT her view.

i.e. the phone. She was dissapointed, maybe, with your suggestion to postpone the phone pick-up because she was excited to get the phone. Once she gave her reason for why she wanted to do it her way (excitement) you could latch on to it and support her way for her reasons..

i.e.

"Oh - I didn't think about how you are excited to get it - lets go do that and come back to play, or why don't you go get it while I watch S"

Now, of course, it isn't going to work every time to go with her way because sometimes you might have important reasons for doing it your way. At which point you could say

"oh - I hear that your excited about getting your phone... but how do you feel about playing here for a minute since it is on the way, and then we can get your phone together because I'm excited about it for you?"

In this example you have a reason for doing it your way THAT INCLUDES an awareness of her feelings and support for that. IT DOESN"T discount that she is excited or make that unimportant. In fact - it builds on it because you say that you are excited about her excitement. double value! Chaching in the love bank!

Do you see what I'm trying to say here? These are just ideas with the example you gave. I think it is fine to have a different opinion, but it maybe isn't best to try and convince your wife that she can freely chose either when maybe she doesn't feel it is that easy. it would be better to make a statement after that either gives a good reason for your way (that values her at the same time) or go with her way. Propose a compromise that is in the spirit of what she proposed but incorperates your needs to.

Ok - now i'm rambling. I hope you see what I mean

good luck this week. Play it cool. When your brain gets going - stop and think "what's the nicest/most innocent intention i can ascribe to my W's actions" and act based on that.

lfc